TT&F IV: New Strategies and Theories for '07

[Dayle Wood]

Asmo - the people that are scornful and negative are a small minority and are not really worth the effort in responding too.

There are probably hundreds, possibly thousands of other people who are highly appreciative of threads like this. Don't let one or two attention seekers rattle you.

[Finknottle]

Good morning to all! I would like to ask FourThreeThree and anyone else who may be of assistance to me, what exactly is "Global"? I haven't been able to find a full description of it, or how to make a tactic, using it. If anyone can I would be rather grateful. I would like to try it out. Kind regards to all.

[Asmodeus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dayle Wood:

Asmo - the people that are scornful and negative are a small minority and are not really worth the effort in responding too.

There are probably hundreds, possibly thousands of other people who are highly appreciative of threads like this. Don't let one or two attention seekers rattle you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't normally- it's just that I'm in a foul mood this morning. Was nearly run over on my way to work.

[Dayle Wood]

Well I got sunstroke yesterday playing golf and now I'm Freddy Krugars stand in!

Glad to hear they missed you though

[Asmodeus]

If it was a tighter angle they may well have hit the target.

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oescus:

Good morning to all! I would like to ask FourThreeThree and anyone else who may be of assistance to me, what exactly is "Global"? I haven't been able to find a full description of it, or how to make a tactic, using it. If anyone can I would be rather grateful. I would like to try it out. Kind regards to all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everyone has the same mentality, usually the same as the team mentality in a global system.

Personally, I don't like it, but then it's an irrational dislike since I've not really used it since the first save I did on the new FM series - and I was pants.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I apologise for this rant but the whole competitive thing ****es me off. We have a common goal, and a common enemy in that accursed match engine. We all come here to learn so let’s just keep doing that- please…? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen. However, the law of the internet means some idiot will still think he's God even if he can't do up his own shoe laces.

[wwfan]

@ oecsus: Global mentality is when you leave all mentalities defaulted to team, thus every player being on 14 for example. Asmo was the originator of the split 5x5 mentality system in which 5 players had low mentalties and concentrated on defending whereas 5 had high and concentrated on attacking. My own take for FM06 was derived from RedefiningForm's theory in which you split stratum mentalities by 2, hence DCs 6, FBs 8, DMC 10 etc and is known as the Rule of Two (RoT). My curent system follows a similar logic to the Rule of Two but splits the strata by 1 (DCs 6, FBs 7, MCd 8) and is known as the Rule of One.

@ Asmo: I need to reiterate the importance of the passing combinations when matching width/tempo/passing. Matching it to the MCs and having the back strata (DCs, FBs) playing longer passes and the front strata (ML/R, FCs) shorter produces a much more satisfying result than global passing. Likewise the heavy pressing wingers and FBs holding position ensures most crosses are blocked, which previous to trying those settings had been driving me nuts.

In the last three(ish) seasons I have been almost totally satisifed with the tactics (when I choose the right option) and rarely if ever see the errors and poor playing performances that seem to be causing you and others grief. I have the odd bad day, but I must say, I haven't felt any of the nagging frustrations that seem to be commonplace on the boards. I don't see the glaring errors you do in the engine (in my team anyways) although prior to my switch to RoO I most certainly did. I would suggest you fiddle around with the passing/width/tempo in conjunction with your SA theories and see if they help, and if they don't have a glance at the RoO set to see if it offers a better game experience. I would be extremely interested in hearing your opinions.

[Dayle Wood]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

If it was a tighter angle they may well have hit the target. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>lucky their mentality was low

[Asmodeus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">@ Asmo: I need to reiterate the importance of the passing combinations when matching width/tempo/passing. Matching it to the MCs and having the back strata (DCs, FBs) playing longer passes and the front strata (ML/R, FCs) shorter produces a much more satisfying result than global passing. Likewise the heavy pressing wingers and FBs holding position ensures most crosses are blocked, which previous to trying those settings had been driving me nuts.

In the last three(ish) seasons I have been almost totally satisifed with the tactics (when I choose the right option) and rarely if ever see the errors and poor playing performances that seem to be causing you and others grief. I have the odd bad day, but I must say, I haven't felt any of the nagging frustrations that seem to be commonplace on the boards. I don't see the glaring errors you do in the engine (in my team anyways) although prior to my switch to RoO I most certainly did. I would suggest you fiddle around with the passing/width/tempo in conjunction with your SA theories and see if they help, and if they don't have a glance at the RoO set to see if it offers a better game experience. I would be extremely interested in hearing your opinions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use heavy closing down as part of my wingers/full-backs as I give them atacking settings; which comprise high mentality hence closing down. I agree it works wonders.

I very rarely get individual errors and poor playing performances either so it sounds like we're both pretty happy with our approaches. My width/tempo issues stem from the fact that I tend to fare better at the moment with wide/quick (less so with the latter), so I'm not convinced whether there is a definite correlation between the sliders.

My gripes with the match engine are mainly related to lack of information provided to new users, and the fact is isn't easy to identify and address tactical problems. I think that many overhaul their strategy constantly after a non-tactical factor adversely affects a performance, and then suffer the knock-on effects of constant tweaking. But once again this is a digression.

I really like your staggered passing idea and will try it in my forthcoming season. I may well adopt your entire strategy if I get the time. Pre-season awaits!

[filipe_fonseca]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">@ Asmo: I need to reiterate the importance of the passing combinations when matching width/tempo/passing. Matching it to the MCs and having the back strata (DCs, FBs) playing longer passes and the front strata (ML/R, FCs) shorter produces a much more satisfying result than global passing. Likewise the heavy pressing wingers and FBs holding position ensures most crosses are blocked, which previous to trying those settings had been driving me nuts.

In the last three(ish) seasons I have been almost totally satisifed with the tactics (when I choose the right option) and rarely if ever see the errors and poor playing performances that seem to be causing you and others grief. I have the odd bad day, but I must say, I haven't felt any of the nagging frustrations that seem to be commonplace on the boards. I don't see the glaring errors you do in the engine (in my team anyways) although prior to my switch to RoO I most certainly did. I would suggest you fiddle around with the passing/width/tempo in conjunction with your SA theories and see if they help, and if they don't have a glance at the RoO set to see if it offers a better game experience. I would be extremely interested in hearing your opinions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use heavy closing down as part of my wingers/full-backs as I give them atacking settings; which comprise high mentality hence closing down. I agree it works wonders.

I very rarely get individual errors and poor playing performances either so it sounds like we're both pretty happy with our approaches. My width/tempo issues stem from the fact that I tend to fare better at the moment with wide/quick (less so with the latter), so I'm not convinced whether there is a definite correlation between the sliders.

My gripes with the match engine are mainly related to lack of information provided to new users, and the fact is isn't easy to identify and address tactical problems. I think that many overhaul their strategy constantly after a non-tactical factor adversely affects a performance, and then suffer the knock-on effects of constant tweaking. But once again this is a digression.

I really like your staggered passing idea and will try it in my forthcoming season. I may well adopt your entire strategy if I get the time. Pre-season awaits! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been using wwfan's passing ideas with great success. After a period of frustration and many new games, I'm finally getting solid performances and excellent results. And I achieved that when I began using short passing with slow tempo (longer behind, shorter upfront). However, I'm playing with width 12, which might contradict the alleged link with passing and tempo.

From my recent observations, as long as you don't overdo width, you don't actually need to match it with your midfielders' passing. I haven't felt the need yet, I'm still halfway through my first season with these tactics, but I'm always ready to lower width if I think it's leaving the team too exposed.

[FourThreeThree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

The only irony I can see in that post, aside from you missing the point entirely, is that you seemingly deem it "cool" to post "" at the end of every post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> It is good that you didn't see the inside of it as you might make a mistake and think its something else. Anyway, it was not for you to answer and ironicly you did yet that post is not in anway or form attacking anyone. I'm sure wwfan knew exactly what I am on about and I am also sure he can defend, offend or explain himself Asmodeus, as proven many many times.

A mistake you made is that you say I think it is cool to put a smiley there. Its just character, like a signature, like you choosing your nick. I hope you understand this.

[Asmodeus]

Ah, i think I understand now- apologies.

[Asmodeus]

Ah, i think I understand now- apologies.

[FourThreeThree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

I have too much respect for all to get into any debate on who and what is right. I have my theories, others have theirs. As long as they help rather than hinder, what right have we to judge. And if anyone wants to discuss the definition of irony, I'm your man. I have read every book on the subject from Quintillian to Rorty, with Kierkegaard, Schlegel and Derrida thrown in for good measure (major topic of my PhD if you're asking) but I promise I'll bore the socks off you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I am curious though, have you done a test on pin-pointing that topic, that global mentality has a lot of effect after individual preset tactics? Have other people dont this check to confirm? I have been doing some testing myself and tick off individual mentality to see a clear effect and IRONICLY on all out attack, the team seem very normal looking while still in my half preparing to build an attack and my tempo was normal (quick too). The attack was typical. Then I set all my players to a set of mentalities and test from maximum defend, middle to maximum attack. I still can't pin-point the differences. I know previous version of the game had an effect.

[Asmodeus]

Are you suggesting that individual mentalities have more effect than team mentality?

[FourThreeThree]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Are you suggesting that individual mentalities have more effect than team mentality? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Asmodeus, do you set each and one of your players with individual mentalities and then while on a match with those individual mentalities use the team individual mentalities to have an effect? Yes, I mean, having your players each on a set of mentalities yet dictating your game sliding the team mentality. Have you tried this, if so tell me the effect as I would love to know.

[Kandinsky]

Just something that usually gives some good out of nothing goals.

In throw-ins, tell one of your center backs to go to the near post.

One of the winger/side miedfielder to go up.

The striker(s) will wait in the edge of the box.

Long throws.

A lot of times the long throw goes to the center back which will try to make an effort to win the ball. With your center back fightinh gor the ball agains the defenders, your striker that were waiting on the edge of the box will come as 2nd wave and create a goal oportunity. I've scored lots of goals like this.

This is not 100% effective, or even 50%, but will give you some good goals.

Anyone had experienced this?

[Asmodeus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FourThreeThree:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Are you suggesting that individual mentalities have more effect than team mentality? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Asmodeus, do you set each and one of your players with individual mentalities and then while on a match with those individual mentalities use the team individual mentalities to have an effect? Yes, I mean, having your players each on a set of mentalities yet dictating your game sliding the team mentality. Have you tried this, if so tell me the effect as I would love to know.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not properly no- now I've set up wwfan's individual instructions I might experiment with the team slider and it's effects, if any.

[Asmodeus]

Just played the same friendly twice, first on team mentality ultra-attacking. Won 10-1, 65% possession. Second with ultra-defensive, won 12-0 with 60%

No discernible difference noticed, but of course it's hardly a comprehensive test!

[Asmodeus]

Just played the same friendly again out of curiousity, this time with my old tactic, and won 16-0.

However, funnily enough the second game (using wwfan's home framework & team mentality of ultra-defensive) saw probably the best performance.

Ah, inconclusive testing!

[Asmodeus]

Damn you Rich; not only do I now have team selection to worry about- now I have to select which tactic to use too.

[-=[MaVeRiXxX]=-]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

With regard to the right/wrong debate, we're all right in our own way- the systems we use work for us, this is what I was alluding to with "missing the point entirely."

This forum isn't about one-upmanship or anything of the sort. The reason we all post on this forum is to learn and help each other to reach the common goal of trying to understand this now hugely complex game. If anyone thinks that the forum regulars continually contribute for their own ends or any form of self-promotion, then I think you are sadly-mistaken.

As wwfan has already polarised in his opening statements, he and myself do operate at differing ends of the tactical spectrum. However, I enjoy his threads more than any as they’re articulate, methodical and based on excellent logic. This is vital in inspiring debate and discussion, which is more often than not where revelation is derived from.

I apologise for this rant but the whole competitive thing ****es me off. We have a common goal, and a common enemy in that accursed match engine. We all come here to learn so let’s just keep doing that- please…?

Sorry for the slight digression wwfan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

(speechless, spot on, .....)

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Damn you Rich; not only do I now have team selection to worry about- now I have to select which tactic to use too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Choose to hope the girlfriend is out with her mates. Choose a large meat feast pizza and a six-pack. Choose to ignore your ringing cell phone as it may be a mate inviting you to the pub. Choose sitting in front of a wide screen monitor. Choose to load the game. Choose a team. Choose Slder Apathy. Choose the Rule of One. Choose a formation. Choose to tweak. Choost to win. Choose FM. Choose life.

It's all about choices really. Have fun, Asmo.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

As for the width/tempo/passing match, I'm still convinced linking them together is as good a base rule as any. Highly technical teams should be able to play short passes at faster tempo, but I would recommend a varying scale for testing this theory out, i.e. don't try an extreme tempo with extreme short passing, rather shift settings incrementally until the team is producing the kind of moves you are after. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought of the tempo/width/passing because it just seemed sensible to do it. If players are on more direct passing then they should be further apart to compliment that, hence playing wider.

Until wwfan posted this thread and detailed how he sets up his d-line, I always had it deep-ish. Further thinking from the passing/width pairing, I thought that the d-line should compliment the passing as well because width only stretches your team out horizontally. If I have the width assumption working well, then mirroring the d-line with team passing should also work.

As for global passing, I can't see how that would ever work. I'd never have my defenders on too short a passing level as they'd be too prone to mistakes and I'd never have passing on any higher than short for STs as they're too high up the pitch.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Damn you Rich; not only do I now have team selection to worry about- now I have to select which tactic to use too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Choose to hope the girlfriend is out with her mates. Choose a large meat feast pizza and a six-pack. Choose to ignore your ringing cell phone as it may be a mate inviting you to the pub. Choose sitting in front of a wide screen monitor. Choose to load the game. Choose a team. Choose Slder Apathy. Choose the Rule of One. Choose a formation. Choose to tweak. Choost to win. Choose FM. Choose life.

It's all about choices really. Have fun, Asmo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a coincidence, my personal message on MSN is 'I chose not to choose life'

[Cleon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FourThreeThree:

Its an irony that you are convinced the global mentality concept does not work wwfan because that would make someones thread completely redundant and the results most likely fake.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not if you read that somones thread and tried to understand what they are saying. But I guess anyone who has any sort of success on FM cheats then in your eyes?

I'm sick of little idiots runing good threads like you, or people who try and prevoke a reaction from people, its people like you who make all the old guard **** off and not post anymore.

Just because you don;t agree with what is said, doesn't mean you have to try and make a mockery of them. Anyone who goes to any sort of effort to dedicate time and energy on something well written deserves credit. After all this is a discussion forum, and there are many ways to play the game.

And for the last time, drop the cool smilie off your posts or you will be warned. Signatures of anykind are not allowed, and seeing as you add them to every post means you are tying to have one. I've asked before and you failed to adhere my request, if you fail again its a suspension.

[Asmodeus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Damn you Rich; not only do I now have team selection to worry about- now I have to select which tactic to use too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Choose to hope the girlfriend is out with her mates. Choose a large meat feast pizza and a six-pack. Choose to ignore your ringing cell phone as it may be a mate inviting you to the pub. Choose sitting in front of a wide screen monitor. Choose to load the game. Choose a team. Choose Slder Apathy. Choose the Rule of One. Choose a formation. Choose to tweak. Choost to win. Choose FM. Choose life.

It's all about choices really. Have fun, Asmo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My world is not a lonely one after all.

[kevtrev]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Exactly what's required in my opinion- for example Ray Houghton's much-maligned overhaul of the defensive line for FM2007 had us all flummoxed until the reasoning and basic mechanics of it were explained.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

they were? please enlighten me, or at least tell me where to look. i know wwfan sets his dline as the mean of mentalities, but that approach didn't seem to work for my group of comedians.

on a different note, and for what it's worth (possibly very little indeed), i have been reasonably successful using RoO mentalities from 7 to 13 and team mentality in the same range, depending on whether i want an attacking/defensive stance.

sorry to hear about your hand wwfan, and hope it recovers w/o the need for surgery.

[wwfan]

Passing/Width/Tempo

With reference to the passing/width/tempo conversation, does the following make sense:

1: Width/tempo/passing are intrinsically linked and a good rule of thumb is to set the central midifielders' passing to the same value as width and tempo, with defenders playing longer passes and attackers shorter passes.

2: Very few teams in real life are able to play short passing, high tempo football effectively. These teams are normally full of world class players.

3: Quick tempo, short passing systems, when working, are beautiful to employ and are a common goal when designing tactics for top sides.

4: To break the width/tempo/passing link a team requires players proficient at passing, technique, decisions, first touch (hence, world class or close to).

5: A combined total of 60 for these four attributes for most players across the team is recommended before trying to break those links.

6: If the right quality personnel are in place then it is probably advantageous to break the links. If the requisite players are not available then the likelihood is performance will drop.

7: LLM teams should base tactics on long passing/width/tempo, good British, Scandinavian and Germanic teams on mixed, top Latin sides on short. World class teams should be looking to break the rules and produce the type of football other less talented sides are unable to play!

Any thoughts?

[FourThreeThree]

First, I have to apologize to wwfan for this post because this is his thread and its not a tactical discussion.

Cleon:

Not if you read that somones thread and tried to understand what they are saying. But I guess anyone who has any sort of success on FM cheats then in your eyes?

Fourthreethree:

In my eyes I think it is fantastic that someone shares their football knowledge and it makes the game a whole more fun because people come to this forum to win games and that’s the core to playing FM. I very much prefer to watch my team banging in the goals and defending like a fort against the giants compared to coming to wwfan’s thread playing god blatantly acusing people of things and also it is funny that you acuse me using the word ‘cheat’ as I never actually accused anyone of cheating ever in this forum, where did you come up with this idea? As far as I am concerned, your name never came up nor did the word the word ‘cheat’ in this thread.

Cleon:

I'm sick of little idiots runing good threads like you, or people who try and prevoke a reaction from people, its people like you who make all the old guard **** off and not post anymore.

Fourthreethree:

The one who is ruining wwfans good thread here is you. I am in page one of this thread for giving this thread a thumbs up and I even went as far as protecting the over-complicating accusation by someone on wwfan because his post is a breath of fresh air to the tactics forum, right or wrong it is an inspiration for us not only to learn but also to write and come up with ideas ourselves. Just look at how many wwfan style are here post. It is blatantly obvious you fail to realize this and again accuse me putting off the old guards when it is your responsibility as moderator to drum them up. And when did I put off any old guard??? And why are you accusing me of this, now? You, on the other hand have came up wit this post using foul language as a moderator who do realize that the game is not age rated so even young people could be coming in here for inspiration. You are the one who is ruining this thread. You are the one who came in this thread without a tactical explaination.

Just because you don;t agree with what is said, doesn't mean you have to try and make a mockery of them. Anyone who goes to any sort of effort to dedicate time and energy on something well written deserves credit. After all this is a discussion forum, and there are many ways to play the game.

Wwfan’s post is certain well written and planned out and I certainly gave him credit for it as I said above. Actually I never said I disagree, where did you come up with this?

And for the last time, drop the cool smilie off your posts or you will be warned. Signatures of anykind are not allowed, and seeing as you add them to every post means you are tying to have one. I've asked before and you failed to adhere my request, if you fail again its a suspension.

Oh, it is just a smiley I put everytime, thats all rubbish talk about character and signature, are you going to ban me for putting smileys???? I tell you what, why don’t you just remove me totally from this forum??? Cleon Hodson, the “dirty moderatorâ€.

[wwfan]

It is not my job to be community policeman, especially policing the police, but can this please stop.

Cleon has a hard job and does it well. He may not do everything to everyone's satisfaction, but he puts the hours in and polices the idiots hardly but fairly. If, over the years he has become overly sensitised, it is because there are many who abuse his theories, his work and his name. I'm sure he would as readily agree as I would about mine that his theories aren't always correct, but he puts the time and effort in to write them down and helps many come to grips with the game. In general though, we are both right more often than we are wrong and hence have solid reputations. If we constantly came up with c**p theories that never work we would soon get the message. As forum moderator, Cleon faces an issue that most of us never have to deal with, namely a constant barrage of abuse from little snotrag wannabees questioning their validity is likely to raise anyone's guard and provoke instant reaction. If he didn't occasionally get angry he would have a halo as wide as the sky.

FourThreeThree has been a forum member since 2000 and contributes good posts. He is not the kind of poster we should be looking to ban. He is articulate and makes good points. If there have been any slightly acidic posts recently they should be regarded as done and dusted from this point on.

Nobody is perfect, on either side of the argument. Forgive, forget, move on. We are all on the same side here.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Passing/Width/Tempo

With reference to the passing/width/tempo conversation, does the following make sense:

1: Width/tempo/passing are intrinsically linked and a good rule of thumb is to set the central midifielders' passing to the same value as width and tempo, with defenders playing longer passes and attackers shorter passes.

2: Very few teams in real life are able to play short passing, high tempo football effectively. These teams are normally full of world class players.

3: Quick tempo, short passing systems, when working, are beautiful to employ and are a common goal when designing tactics for top sides.

4: To break the width/tempo/passing link a team requires players proficient at passing, technique, decisions, first touch (hence, world class or close to).

5: A combined total of 60 for these four attributes for most players across the team is recommended before trying to break those links.

6: If the right quality personnel are in place then it is probably advantageous to break the links. If the requisite players are not available then the likelihood is performance will drop.

7: LLM teams should base tactics on long passing/width/tempo, good British, Scandinavian and Germanic teams on mixed, top Latin sides on short. World class teams should be looking to break the rules and produce the type of football other less talented sides are unable to play!

Any thoughts? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well of course I agree with the link between the three you suggested in point 1:.

I was experimenting with my Man Utd team recently by playing a faster tempo. I usually have passing, width and tempo at 4 but I tried changing the tempo to different levels - mainly 10 and 15. Didn't actually notice too much of a difference in results or performance, but I think I had more shots on goal.

The problem with this is that when playing with a very good team, the opposition will be defensive against you, therefore making it harder to score. If you play a fast tempo, hence making your team get the ball forward quicker, then they'll be more prone to losing the ball due to making a rash attacking pass rather than a safe defensive pass.

That's the problem with tempo: It tells your players how quickly to get the ball forward, rather than just how quickly to move the ball around. Getting the ball forward too quickly would result in what I said in the above paragraph, which is why the more defensive I think the opposition will be, the slower I will make my tempo.

I only have tempo at 4 for home games, and at 10 for away games, but it could be worth changing that slightly when playing better teams at home and also differing it for away games too. I wouldn't go any slower than 4, however, as I don't like using extremes.

I might do some more testing on this soon.

[The next Diaby]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Passing/Width/Tempo

2: Very few teams in real life are able to play short passing, high tempo football effectively. These teams are normally full of world class players.

3: Quick tempo, short passing systems, when working, are beautiful to employ and are a common goal when designing tactics for top sides.

Any thoughts? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

2: Agreed. Nevertheless, a high number of players will enjoy playing with these teams especially.

3: Any effort I made to achieve this usually led to beautiful football, high possession, loads of chances and almost zero efficiency.

The only way I found to establish something similar is using tempo 4-6, passing 7, counter attack and target man run to ball. This seems to emulate certain elements of this style and leads to some efficiency.

[wwfan]

Once I either....

a) leave Blyth for a big club or

b) get the quality players in for Blyth to perform to the same level as the big boys

I'll try to work on a tactic specifically for world class teams. I'd like to build a continental system to complement the British style football my 4-4-2 produces.

[-=[MaVeRiXxX]=-]

I've got a great 4-3-3 with Ajax, made with the RoO, would you like the Instructions List for that?

It will probably work well for World Class teams, tried it for a while with United and Barca, both doing good. I actually got quite bored with it so I switched to Ajax for at least a little challenge (European, that is...)

Cheers, R.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -=[MaVeRiXxX]=-:

I've got a great 4-3-3 with Ajax, made with the RoO, would you like the Instructions List for that?

It will probably work well for World Class teams, tried it for a while with United and Barca, both doing good. I actually got quite bored with it so I switched to Ajax for at least a little challenge (European, that is...)

Cheers, R. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The more the merrier.

[-=[MaVeRiXxX]=-]

OK, here's my view on a very attractive short passing, creative 4-3-3, which is working great for me with Ajax, so far.

Here's the formation:

And the Instructions:

Mentality 14

CF 7

Passing 7

Tempo 14

Width 7

CD 14

TW 2

DL 14

Tackling Normal

Focus Mixed

Marking Man

TMS RoB

Tight Marking OFF

TM OFF

PM ON

Offside OFF

Counter OFF

And yes it is actually possible to play narrow, and quick, with a good squad that is.

If your struggling against any kind of team, I usually change the Tempo, Width or DL, or in extreme cases switch to Mentality 22.

And I have a World Class player in Rafael van der Vaart, which is why I use a PM. If you don't have a very good guy there, don't use him.

But if you have a very good striker, try using a TM, it might work as well.

Also, I have my two MC's Swap Position, the PM switching with the other.

And the two wingers swap as well, up to you who swaps who there.

And here's the full list of Individual Instructions:

DL/R:

13

4

6

8

Normal

Mixed

Mixed

Rarely

Rarely

Mixed

Deep

Mixed

None

Team (Man)

Tight ON

FR OFF

HuB ON

DC's:

11

2

8

8

Normal

Rarely

Rarely

Rarely

Mixed

Rarely

Deep

Mixed

None

Team (Man)

Tight ON

FR OFF

HuB OFF

DMC:

15

7

7

17

Normal

Mixed

Rarely

Rarely

Mixed

Rarely

Deep

Mixed

None

Team (Man)

Tight OFF

FR OFF

HuB OFF

MC(PM):

20

18

5

7

Easy

Often

Rarely

Rarely

Mixed

Rarely

Deep

Mixed

The other MC

Team (Man)

Tight OFF

FR ON

HuB OFF

MC:

16

15

5

7

Normal

Mixed

Mixed

Rarely

Mixed

Rarely

Deep

Mixed

None

Team (Man)

Tight OFF

FR OFF

HuB ON

AM on PM's side:

19

10

6

16

Easy

Often

Often

Rarely

Mixed

Mixed

Byline

Mixed

The other AM

Team (Man)

Tight OFF

FR OFF

HuB ON

AM on other side:

17

15

6

16

Easy

Mixed

Mixed

Rarely

Mixed

Mixed

Byline

Mixed

None

Team (Man)

Tight OFF

FR OFF

HuB OFF

FC:

18

12

5

15

Easy

Mixed

Mixed

Rarely

Mixed

Rarely

Byline

Mixed

None

Team (Man)

Tight OFF

FR OFF

HuB ON

And that is all there is to it, as you can see the PM and winger on his side penetrate much more, while the other side concentrates on crosses and holding position more, giving the Free Roled PlayMaker 18 goals in 17 app., as well as an average rating of over 8.25 so far...

Cheers, R.

[-=[MaVeRiXxX]=-]

Let's try that again:

FORMATION:

[filipe_fonseca]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

Well of course I agree with the link between the three you suggested in point 1:.

I was experimenting with my Man Utd team recently by playing a faster tempo. I usually have passing, width and tempo at 4 but I tried changing the tempo to different levels - mainly 10 and 15. Didn't actually notice too much of a difference in results or performance, but I think I had more shots on goal.

The problem with this is that when playing with a very good team, the opposition will be defensive against you, therefore making it harder to score. If you play a fast tempo, hence making your team get the ball forward quicker, then they'll be more prone to losing the ball due to making a rash attacking pass rather than a safe defensive pass.

That's the problem with tempo: It tells your players how quickly to get the ball forward, rather than just how quickly to move the ball around. Getting the ball forward too quickly would result in what I said in the above paragraph, which is why the more defensive I think the opposition will be, the slower I will make my tempo.

I only have tempo at 4 for home games, and at 10 for away games, but it could be worth changing that slightly when playing better teams at home and also differing it for away games too. I wouldn't go any slower than 4, however, as I don't like using extremes.

I might do some more testing on this soon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an interesting outlook on tempo. I have theoretical doubts, however, regarding the idea that tempo tells your players how quickly to play the ball forward. It seems to me that is the effect of high tempo combined with high mentalities.

An interesting test would be high tempo with low mentalities. If that still makes them rush the ball forward, then tempo definitely works the way you described. I wouldn't be surprised if the manual was not exactly accurate on this issue, as usual.

[crazy gra]

Hmm, good point, f_f.

If it is linked to mentalities, then I'm going to open up another can of worms by asking whether it's linked to individual and/or team mentality.

If it is linked to mentality, then I'd imagine that it would be linked to team mentality because of tempo being only a team instruction. I'll see if I can have a look at this, too.

[HectorSpector]

I've been playing recently with the team mentality slider and player mentalities. I've noticed a definite difference in the passing styles when team mentality is set above the midway point. When I set the team defensive, they barely ever passed the ball up the park unless it was directly to a player's feet. When I set the team more attacking, they will constantly fire balls forward up the flank and through the middle, generally ahead of the strikers, and for the most part useless, as they never seem to get on the end of them.

I think I'll try attacking team mentality with slow tempo and direct passing, to see what the outcome is there.

I'm thinking now that player mentality is purely positional, and team mentality affects the kind of plays your players will make. It's easy to see the effect of the player mentality. Turn off forward runs and creative freedom on all players, set one side of the pitch to 20 mentality, and the other side to 1. Very noticable.

[wwfan]

Having now taken over a big side and being 1-6 to win my home games, I'm finally having to deal with the AI's favoured ultra-defensive formations. It does seem that the Britishness of my current set needs to be downplayed to retain possession while still creating chances. Currently, I have 60% plus possession but struggle to score. I think breaking the passing/tempo/width link may be the answer, but mentality may play a part to. Likewise, higher creative freedom for front players may be required. I'll update when I have any solid findings.

[crazy gra]

I never get 60% possession whilst playing as a big side, even with passing and tempo at 4. It's usually around 50%, maybe a few higher. One reason could be if you're not using a target man - I use one and that gets my players playing the ball up to him quite a bit. Even though he often wins the header, the opposition will get the ball back sometimes.

The only players I have high CF for are the wingers and the MCa.

I also changed the home mentality framework. Still use a RoO framework, but it ranges from 12-15 IIRR.

What team are you now then? Any plans to go back to Blyth and make them dominant?

[wwfan]

I'm Barca and I may go back to Blyth when I start a new game post patch. I wanted to experiment with a big side before the new pach came out and there is added difficulty as my manager rep is so high, so teams really sit and defend, more so than if I had started at a big club with low reputation. If I can maintain the possession stats (63% is my best so far in a 2-0 win) whilst guaranteeing a higher number of quality chances before the 7.0.2 I'll be happy.

[Benoit2]

Finally, after over a year, wwfan enters my territory, the big teams (unless Ive missed something before).

I have been reading your posts with interest thus far, but it never really applied to me because I only play with Chelsea. I look forward with great interest to the theories aimed for the big guns Not because I need it, but because its certainly interesting and may give me new views. Im particularly interested in finding out the best way to be quite attacking, but still keeping it solid at the back.

I lover counter-attacking and its not difficult to completely destroy the opposition playing that way, but one thing that was bugging me, was that Arsenal scored many more goals then me in the leagues. Sure, I kept a clean sheet ratio of over 50%, but I wouldnt mind giving up a few of those (not too many!) in order to score many more goals.

[Rashidi]

You love the variety of ways this game can be played in, do not, hmm?

. Yes, hmmm.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Benoit2:

Finally, after over a year, wwfan enters my territory, the big teams (unless Ive missed something before).

I have been reading your posts with interest thus far, but it never really applied to me because I only play with Chelsea. I look forward with great interest to the theories aimed for the big guns Not because I need it, but because its certainly interesting and may give me new views. Im particularly interested in finding out the best way to be quite attacking, but still keeping it solid at the back.

I lover counter-attacking and its not difficult to completely destroy the opposition playing that way, but one thing that was bugging me, was that Arsenal scored many more goals then me in the leagues. Sure, I kept a clean sheet ratio of over 50%, but I wouldnt mind giving up a few of those (not too many!) in order to score many more goals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You did miss something. My 06 Odyssey was:

Game One: Maidenhead Utd, Chesterfield (PC hard drive failure before first match of Premiership season)

Game Two: Vauxhall Motors, Huddersfield, Lyon, Juventus

By the end of Game Two I was showboating tactically, switching between 7 or 8 formations with no loss of performance. I think I only lost 6 games in 4 seasons with Juve, mainly when I had my second team out.

I tend to try and play 'realistically'. Hence, taking a small club to the big leagues is not really my thing. Taking Blyth all the way to the Premiership is unusual for me as I would normally look for a bigger club once I got to L1.

[Guest Foxes-Til-I-Die]

Cheers for the Advice, this advice has led to me being 2nd in the table with blackburn after 17 games in my network game with 8 other people, 5 wins on the bounce including 1-0 at the Bridge!!!

[Asmodeus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Having now taken over a big side and being 1-6 to win my home games, I'm finally having to deal with the AI's favoured ultra-defensive formations. It does seem that the Britishness of my current set needs to be downplayed to retain possession while still creating chances. Currently, I have 60% plus possession but struggle to score. I think breaking the passing/tempo/width link may be the answer, but mentality may play a part to. Likewise, higher creative freedom for front players may be required. I'll update when I have any solid findings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been playing a thoroughly optimistic short(est) passing, high(est) tempo, very attacking and wide game with Arsenal and I'm averaging around 60% possession at the moment. It utilises high creative freedom for a couple of players.

[Millie]

With regards to the team mentality vs individual mentality debate, I've started a new game with Lancaster City and decided to give wwfan's downloadable RoO set a go.

However, I'm still not 100% happy with the extremes of the sliders. I'm sure they work, but it just isn't me. Irrational fear, I know, but I've modified the tactics slightly to make them more akin to my style.

What I've done is set one CB to the lowest notch of normal mentality (7) and roughly followed "Rule of One" through to the forwards. I'm also playing a wingless 4-1-3-2 (a la Chelsea) as Lancaster don't have any left sided players over the age of 15. Nice.

For quick reference: GK: 7; DL/R: 9; DC1: 7; DC2: 8; DM: 10; CMl/r: 12; CMc: 11; FC1: 13; FC2: 14

Everything else is pretty much the same as wwfan's set, with the side midfielders carrying pretty much the same individual instructions as the wingers in the 4-4-2 system.

Now, that's my individuals done! I won't have to change them now, unless I want to get a little bit more out of certain players. Although there are slight variations in individual instructions between his home and away systems, I've found a comfortable middle ground that I'm happy with (the differences were usually only one or two clicks anyway, and I'm happy to be lazy over this bit).

The only thing left to do now is to change my team instructions before each match.

I'm working on the simplistic basis that if you move left from the centre of team mentality this will decrease the individual mentality, and if I move right it will increase it. I know this is probably not how it works, it's too simplistic and will cause no end of debate. Run with this assumption for a moment.

So, to get wwfan's away tactic, I need to get my most defensive defender back to "1". I need to take 6 clicks off him. So I set my team mentality to 6 clicks left of centre. For the home tactic, I need to get my most forward striker to 20. So, I move the team mentality slider six clicks to the right.

Similarly with defensive line. If playing defensive, knock it down to 3. If playing attacking, knock it up to 17. And somewhere inbetween for other settings.

It's a little simplistic, I know, but it should work. It will work differently, but I think it's worth a go.

Obviously, I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't see any potential benefits from it. It would obviously be far easier to switch between the downloaded tactics and be done with it. However, I can see a few positives. First, I'm going to understand the RoO framework a lot better because I've built it myself. Of course, it's taken from wwfan's excellent blueprint, but it's like taking apart a car engine and re-assembling it. You appreciate it a lot more. Second, I only have to move a couple of sliders around to acheive the same effect (I hope!) of changing all of the individual mentalities. Again, this will help me understand how the framework works, and it means I have more control over how my team play. For instance, I move the team mentality up eight notches for the attacking home framework. However, unlike wwfan's setting, the spacing between my players will remain the same, rather than having a sqeezed defence. I hope this will help me better counteract the quick AI break-away. I can also create an ultra-defensive away tactic by moving my slider back 8 notches, something which cannot be acheived at all on the individual mentality framework (unless we can move the defence back to -2).

It's most definitely a hypothetical tactic this one, and I'm testing it out now. I've played one-and-a-half friendlies, one at home and "half" away. I won 1-0 in the away half (2-1 loss overall) and 2-0 in the home game. I noticed an unnerving reliance on the pacy forward striker, but this is to be expected in a crappy Conference North side. However, my pass completion rate shot up from my older tactic (where I played two-and-a-half games), as did my possession. And the team looked better too. Once the season gets into gear, I should have a better idea of the plusses and minuses in the system.

My other hope is that this will work better with larger teams, though I cannot comment on that at the moment, obviously. Simply because it has more fluidity in its set-up, I think it may benefit players who like to tweak endlessly but don't want to click all the individual sliders to get it to work. I honestly don't know, but I hope it works just because it gives us an alternative.