Ajax – When The Real World Meets Football Manager FM14

[tomtuck01]

What stage of the eason are you at?

[underkiller]

Wow Cleon! What an amazing thread:) Thank you so much.

I have to ask you two questions, sorry if this is been told earlier:

1. If you have a youngster of determination 18, and the best tutor has only 15. Would that be a risk to take?

2. You have written about the youngster has to have right personality before i can put him for loan. But do i have to look at determination also? How old must they be, and how much determination before you put Your youngsters for loan deals?

Cheers

[tomtuck01]

1. If you have a youngster of determination 18, and the best tutor has only 15. Would that be a risk to take?

Not at all, as even if his determination drops a little it'll gradually go up with age anyway.

Professionalism >>> Determination

2. You have written about the youngster has to have right personality before i can put him for loan. But do i have to look at determination also? How old must they be, and how much determination before you put Your youngsters for loan deals?

Speaking for Cleon as I know his answer to this; he doesn't loan out players unless he thinks that he can't develop them anymore.

[underkiller]

Not at all, as even if his determination drops a little it'll gradually go up with age anyway.

Professionalism >>> Determination

Speaking for Cleon as I know his answer to this; he doesn't loan out players unless he thinks that he can't develop them anymore.

Thanks for reply

You say he dosent loan ut players if he cant develop them anymore... well my problem is that, is i have 8 youngsters and 5 tutors, what do i do With the two guys who dont get turtored? I feel that they are loosing a lot of skills, when they just play reserve team matches, and u 18 games, even if i focus on individual training.

[squashstar666]

Im at december maybe just a coincedence :/

[tomtuck01]

Im at december maybe just a coincedence :/

Might be something do with wat you did in preseason/how much you rotate players.

[Cleon]

Thanks for reply

You say he dosent loan ut players if he cant develop them anymore... well my problem is that, is i have 8 youngsters and 5 tutors, what do i do With the two guys who dont get turtored? I feel that they are loosing a lot of skills, when they just play reserve team matches, and u 18 games, even if i focus on individual training.

Not tutoring someone wouldn't make them not get better. If a player isn't improving they either have the wrong personality type or you've not set up training correctly. If you go back to the beginning of the thread I explain more about what personality types do and then you can choose which you want.

[Cleon]

Im at december maybe just a coincedence :/

Have a read of this because if players aren't fit then you either had a poor pre season or you don't ensure your players are always match fit by making them available for reserve matches or by playing them.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/348337-Approaching-Pre-Season-My-take-On-It

[Magraev]

Great thread!

I'm trying to implement your principles in the lower leages (Cambridge in the BSP), and it's fun but also quite painful. I edited the team to have a small youth academy (though I'm not sure what it does). It's fun to go through all your prospective stars (using the term loosely) on a regular basis. I've implemented three sessions pr. year where I will change training settings - 1. november, 1. march and 1. july.

Not doing so well the first season (at 8th place in january), but I have hopes for the future.

[max787]

I've just started a Bilbao save, pretty much all of my players will have to be homegrown

[abhid30007]

does tutoring affect important matches and consistency (positively or negatively) ?

[XenoExclusive]

does tutoring affect important matches and consistency (positively or negatively) ?

Nope, those stats only change through match events.

[squashstar666]

Ok im so getting this wrong so can someone tell me where im going wrong

Ive got lots of youngsters and ive set the training to 10% . Match training is set on teamwork and default focus is fitness to high.

So ive set individual training stuff for every all of my kids depending where I think they need it.

But the results aee no better than before and they have been on the one training for 4 months . They get more out of tutoring to be fair!

Also my youth coaches are mostly 4 or 5 stars across the training.

So what am I doing wrong ?

[RTHerringbone]

Ok im so getting this wrong so can someone tell me where im going wrong

Ive got lots of youngsters and ive set the training to 10% . Match training is set on teamwork and default focus is fitness to high.

So ive set individual training stuff for every all of my kids depending where I think they need it.

But the results aee no better than before and they have been on the one training for 4 months . They get more out of tutoring to be fair!

Also my youth coaches are mostly 4 or 5 stars across the training.

So what am I doing wrong ?

Are the individual workloads set to heavy, and the team default focus workload set to average?

[Falahk]

Ok im so getting this wrong so can someone tell me where im going wrong

Ive got lots of youngsters and ive set the training to 10% . Match training is set on teamwork and default focus is fitness to high.

So ive set individual training stuff for every all of my kids depending where I think they need it.

But the results aee no better than before and they have been on the one training for 4 months . They get more out of tutoring to be fair!

Also my youth coaches are mostly 4 or 5 stars across the training.

So what am I doing wrong ?

there will not be a notable difference in progression, maybe even a tad less progression, however an approach similar to the one cleon take, give you much larger control over how to shape the player and where the progression will end up

[Cleon]

Ok im so getting this wrong so can someone tell me where im going wrong

Ive got lots of youngsters and ive set the training to 10% . Match training is set on teamwork and default focus is fitness to high.

So ive set individual training stuff for every all of my kids depending where I think they need it.

But the results aee no better than before and they have been on the one training for 4 months . They get more out of tutoring to be fair!

Also my youth coaches are mostly 4 or 5 stars across the training.

So what am I doing wrong ?

Tutoring doesn't develop players, it shapes personality. So not sure how you think they are getting more out of tutoring than training?

You do realise the youth set up has its own training? Are you changing that to match the seniors?

[RTHerringbone]

Cleon - in your opinion, is the rate of development linear across the areas (Technical, Mental and Physical)?

If Player A is trained on Finishing by a 5* Attacking Coach, or Stamina by a 5* Fitness coach, should the development rate be the same for each?

Also, does the rate of development decrease as you head towards the maximum of 20?

Does it take longer to move from 19 to 20, than it does to move from 10 to 11?

[Cleon]

Cleon - in your opinion, is the rate of development linear across the areas (Technical, Mental and Physical)?

If Player A is trained on Finishing by a 5* Attacking Coach, or Stamina by a 5* Fitness coach, should the development rate be the same for each?

Also, does the rate of development decrease as you head towards the maximum of 20?

Does it take longer to move from 19 to 20, than it does to move from 10 to 11?

Each catergory has the same chance of changing yeah.

Its supposed to be harder to go from higher attributes to an even higher one and costs more CA, so 19-20 should be hard to do. However I think it isn't quite working right atm because its far to easy to have a player reach his full potential before he is 20 years old.

[squashstar666]

Yeah I changed the youth set up to do the same as the seniors. Some of my youth are progressing well just not on the setting ive set them to train.

Maybe im asking them to train the wrong thing. A lot of them have poor strength so ive been concentrating on that

[squashstar666]

Are the individual workloads set to heavy, and the team default focus workload set to average?

The team focus is set to high and fitness, should I bring this down then?

[Cleon]

The team focus is set to high and fitness, should I bring this down then?

I thought you'd read the thread? It clearly explains what you should set team focus on if you use individual roles/attribute training. It should be set to low not high.

[RTHerringbone]

The team focus is set to high and fitness, should I bring this down then?

What Cleon said.

Players do a combination of Match Prep training, Team Training, Individual Training and possibly Position and PPM training.

To maximise focus on individual attribute training, you need to minimise effort elsewehere - so low team training, low match prep and no position or PPM training.

PPM training should not be ignored though, it turns a good player into a great player and gets your team playing how you want if done correctly.

[squashstar666]

Ok maybe I misunderstood ive set my scheduling to low at 10% and my general training to default intensity high?

Yeah I read the thread but you know everyone is different some people like to resd stuff then follow things step by stept and other like to get on and do stuff and then ask questions . The latter is me

[Cleon]

Ok maybe I misunderstood ive set my scheduling to low at 10% and my general training to default intensity high?

Yeah I read the thread but you know everyone is different some people like to resd stuff then follow things step by stept and other like to get on and do stuff and then ask questions . The latter is me

But its been explained what to do, the questions you ask have been answered

If you are using individual roles/attribute training then intensity should be on low because all the focus will then be put into role/attribute training.

[squashstar666]

Did I read on here that loaning isnt good ? Just I have a lot of youngsters maybe 50 to 100 at any one time so what I do is I take charge of my affiliates ie celtic atalanta and getafe and loan 11 youngsters to each team so I know my most talented are getting game time so is this not helping them ?

[Gee_Simpson]

Did I read on here that loaning isnt good ? Just I have a lot of youngsters maybe 50 to 100 at any one time so what I do is I take charge of my affiliates ie celtic atalanta and getafe and loan 11 youngsters to each team so I know my most talented are getting game time so is this not helping them ?

What?!? Mate, you have waayyy too many youngsters. Infact, 50 players would be a lot for a whole club (1st team, reserves & youth combined) nevermind just your youth team!

[squashstar666]

What?!? Mate, you have waayyy too many youngsters. Infact, 50 players would be a lot for a whole club (1st team, reserves & youth combined) nevermind just your youth team!

Lol yeah I know but about 40 of them are on loan at any 1 point so they are not at my club waisting away.

But is loaning them out and them getting game time the same as getting game time for me ?

[Cleon]

Lol yeah I know but about 40 of them are on loan at any 1 point so they are not at my club waisting away.

But is loaning them out and them getting game time the same as getting game time for me ?

No its not and depends on a number of factors.

You really should read the thread though because it is explained. I know I keep saying it, but its clear you haven't read any of the thread. I know its a lot to take in and a lot of text to read but it really is worth it and will give you a clear picture of how training actually works. Then you'll be better placed to make the decision on what works best for you

[hehehemann]

Junior Coaching and Youth Recruitment - Could you explain what these affect exactly?

Is it only players on youth contracts? Players in U21 and U18 squads?

[TwinsFan86]

Junior Coaching and Youth Recruitment - Could you explain what these affect exactly?

Is it only players on youth contracts? Players in U21 and U18 squads?

Junior coaching determines the CA of incoming newgens and youth recruitment is one of the factors that determines the PA of your newgens. The higher PA newgens generated in your team's area are more likely to be assigned to your team if your youth recruitment is higher.

[hehehemann]

Thanks for clearing that up. Do you know what Youth facilities relevance is for?

[jmonfu]

I have not been on the forums for quite a while due to work committments and also playing the game.

First thread I came over in this forum is this. I have always been facinated by youth development, however I have learned more in this thread than 20 odd years of playing the game. The amount of detail Cleon goes into is simply amazing! I always wondered how you (Cleon) has never been scouted to be a coach or invoved more into real life football with a club. I m sure you will discover the new Messi

Anyways this thread has inspired me to start a save with Anderlecht, and try to develop as much talent as possible. I am still in my first season, due to me not having a lot of play time and I am going more meticoulosly into the game now.

And I can say that I have not enjoyed a save more than this so far. Seeing your youths develop is something amazing. And Anderlecht are blessed with some amazing talent right off the start.

Will update you once I have some results, if I am not sacked before that is

Cleon keep up the good work you are doing for the community and lovers of the game!

[jmonfu]

Hi All,

After reading through the 10 pages, and I must say its one of the best threads I have read here, if not the best, I have some questions which I thought you guys could help me with.

So basically I got in Litmanen, just for the purpose of tutoring, and I set him tutoring a 17 year old which I had quite high hopes for. However I realized that I have 2 first team players which can benefit more from his PPM's at the moment, than this 17 year old. I have also read somewhere, that tutoring can take up to 6 months (correct me if Im wrong) So with my calculations, seeing that I do not intend to keep Litmanen more than 1 season, I will not have enough time to tutor them. Is it possible to stop tutoring the 17 year old and start tutoring my 2 first team players? Also, I thought I read that tutoring can only occur if the player is U/23? And how will I know if my first team player, who is still 21 and rep quite low (Armenteros) will actually like to be tutored by Litmanen?

Another question I have is that I like my striker to be a complete forward (Armenteros not there yet but I think he can make a good Complete Forward if I manage to improve him more) Litmanen has a PPM, try to pass rather than score, will the complete forward still be able to try a shot whenever he deems fit (depending on his decisions), if I can also add the shoot with power PPM?

Third question is, I have this 17 year old striker who is injury prone. He's quite promising, scoring almost every game he starts in, however he spent more time on the medic table rather than playing. Now I know that this will hinder his development, however looking at real life, Ryan Giggs was always touted as injury prone, however he still developed into one of the best LW of all time. Should i just give up on him and release him?

Thanks guys

[soccer.joel]

I don't think you can cancel tutoring

[Jarmel]

I don't think you can cancel tutoring

Send them out on loan then recall them asap .

But i think you cant use the tutor straight away ? if you try this do a save before hand to check.

[jmonfu]

Send them out on loan then recall them asap .

But i think you cant use the tutor straight away ? if you try this do a save before hand to check.

Naaaa don't wanna "cheat", I thought it was possible.

Will get someone else for the PPM or will wait until he is free.

[smp20]

I've officially read through this thread, one that I started reading in March! It's a fantastic read and gives great insight into how real life training/development philosophies can ben implemented into FM. I'm an academy youth coach and I have ambitions of working higher up the food chain - coaching is my first love and FM my second! So long term player development is something that really interests me in both of those worlds.

I'm currently taking on the infamous San Marino challenge and I've had the most success i've ever had since playing FM. Obviously my first aim was first team success and I was able to do so rather quickly, mainly thanks to the development of a great tactic. But also of course once funding allowed I had to develop the infrastructure of the club so that I could bring quality Sammarinese players through the youth system. Using the tips from this thread and my own knowledge I had a great infrastructure in place by 2016, top coaches (4.5/5 stars across the board) youth coaches that were 4 star minimum and great with youngsters, Scouts with 18+ JC/P, great background managers (u20, reserve + their assistants) and of course a HOYD and DOF with 20/20 Judging Ability/Potential. I'm now in 2021 and I have the best infrustructure in the world.

Now my sole aim is the development of Sammarinese players and therefore I have only really focused on their development as opposed to the Italian contingency I have come through, though I have generally found that the better players through the system have been Sammarinese. Here's the breakdown of what I've had come through:

2012/13 Intake: None of note, only one player remains in the game playing in the Sammarinese League.

2013/14 Intake: None of note, one player still on non-contract in my reserves and another in Serie D.

2014/15 Intake: Massimo Carattoni (D/WB L) 4 Star potential at the time, but now 21 and hasn't developed much further than he was at 18/19 despite ample first team opportunities and loan spells in Serie B. Didn't want to sign a new contract so is signing for Everton in July 2021. Giacomo Hirsch (ST) 5 star potential, got really attached to this fella. his development has been incredible and he is the all-time national team top scorer (35 in 56). First team player for club also.

2015/16 Intake: Ivan Gasperoni (4.5 star potential, DM, M RC) Now established as key first team player and one of the best DMs in Europe.

2016/17 Intake: Daniele Andreini (5 star potential, DC) Another amazing developer and most recent European Golden Boy. Best stats of any player in the team. Emanuel Pedini (3 star potential, GK) although he had a relatively low potential. he was already 2 star CA and is easily the national teams no1. Unfortunately not good enough for club and has spent most of his time out on loan to serie b/c.

2017/18 Intake: Andrea Crescentini (5 star potential DM, MC) still only 19 and a rotation player in the first team. Has the potential to be one of the best midfielders on the game, needs to be developed right! Arcadio Martino (4.5 star potential M/AM LC) has required a lot of work as his mental/technical stats weren't great, but amazing physical stats. Is getting there and is second choice LW at the club.

2018/19 Intake: Shocking intake, not a single player worth mentioning.

2019/20 Intake: Alessandro Broccoli (3.5 star potential D R/C) Immediately become national team right back, more recently has made a few club appearances.

Been really happy with the intakes and really feel having the right backroom staff (and of course facilities etc.) helps with the intakes. I've tutored, individual trained, played and monitored these players using the tips on this thread, it's been incredible.

With this team and Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 Tactic I created, I won the 2020 European Championships! Mirko Palazzi made it into the Dream Team!

So a huge thanks to those on here that have contributed to this great thread, it's tips have helped me develop players like I have never developed before.

[max787]

I don't think you can cancel tutoring

You can, I had a regen who's determination shot up from 9 to 19 due to "off field events" so I canceled his tutoring.

Right-click the player in the squad screen, you'll see an option to cancel the tutoring.

[Fredholm]

What are the chances of PPMs being tranferred? I seem to have little luck with my youth prospects picking up any PPMs from the tutors. And yes, I am using the right option

[elt]

My reserves are actually my B-Team (directly part of my team and not a feeder club like barcelona B) and they play in the second division of my league.

Does anyone understand if the games classes youngsters playing for my B-Team as first team experience for that division?

[TwinsFan86]

Thanks for clearing that up. Do you know what Youth facilities relevance is for?

Those are youth team's equivalent to the First team's training facilities. This has an impact on the effectiveness of your training and and higher facilities gives you more options for specific attribute training.

[hehehemann]

Thanks TwinsFan86.

I'm at Slavia Prague and getting the youth set up top notch has been easy to do with a chairman who encourages youth investment. Problem I have is bigger European clubs sniffing around my players and poaching them. Would it be beneficial to start my tutoring program with Loyal character tutors to pass on a higher loyalty stat? Or would subsequent tutoring sessions with characters less loyal just mean they would lose the high stat gained if the new tutor isn't as loyal?

[Puni]

A question that may already have been answered, but I'm not really up to reading ten pages at this late hour: When you focus training on a single attribute for a certain period of time (the so-called 3 month cycle), what intensity do you use?

[Seba Gibbon]

Is there a limit to the amount of PPM's a player can learn ?

[iVoRy]

Just got a promising 15years old from southampton youth intake. Do you think it will benefited him to make him a 1st time player to train with senior squad and play him on easy game, subbing him from times to times etc. Or do you think it's too soon and I should wait until he's older to put him on first team.

here's his stats

I'm planning to train his quickness and strength first and hoping to use him as complete fw

[Gee_Simpson]

A question that may already have been answered, but I'm not really up to reading ten pages at this late hour: When you focus training on a single attribute for a certain period of time (the so-called 3 month cycle), what intensity do you use?

You only had to read the first few posts on this thread (the OP, basically). Cleon has stated there that he uses high intensity for individual focus.

[tomtuck01]

the problem with this is it is too effective...

over 3 years at montpellier ive managed to get about 30 4 and 5 star players on all positions. plus a few players i have got on my own. don't know if it was just luck, but it is quite gamey. you get players, money, everything.

so beware what you wish for.

Come again??

The fact that you are producing four and five star potential players isn't down to an awful lot in this thread. It's to do with how good your youth facilities are, the quality of the coaching, youth recruitment, etc.

All this thread does is demonstrate the best possible way to train said youngters.

[tomtuck01]

But what you are saying has little or nothing to do with the thread? So I don't understand your "opinion".

[tomtuck01]

im just saying this thread has exposed how overpowered is the way you can shape the players, as well as the way you can produce great prospects. it gives you so much controll and power to boost players it is making the game too easy. should maybe be toned down for future versions, that's all.

In that respect you have a point. Cleon and myself have discussed before how easy it can be to get a player to reach his PA.

Regarding your other point, you really do have little to no influence in how good the prospects are that turn up in your youth intake. You can affect it by getting the right staff into your club and getting the best facilities possible, but it is still no guarantee that your prospects will have four or five star PA.

[Puni]

You only had to read the first few posts on this thread (the OP, basically). Cleon has stated there that he uses high intensity for individual focus.

Must have missed it then, somehow. Thanks for pointing it out.