FM2010 No More Tackling?

[lance101]

I think that the defensive players staying away from the offensive players too much ties into another problem with the ME... attackers never seem to "dribble" opponents in the way that Messi or Ronaldinho do in real life... whenever a player goes through another it is merely because he speeds around him, not because he actually confuses the marker and actually "dribbles" him. Maybe if the defenders would challenge for the ball a little more pro actively, we would be able to see the attackers getting through with them through some close range trickery... Right now I feel that having a high dribbling stat is useless when the player is not insanely fast, and that is not the case in real life.

[Wakers]

I think wwfan really tried to sweep the situation under the carper..no surprise there.

The fact is, if you watch a full match in the FM10 demo, there are barely any tackles. Watching ten minutes of a match in the demo SHOULD be enough to tell anyone who watches even a small amount of football that there is something wrong.

It's that simple, I've had enough of people trying to sweep things under the carpet or attempt to muddle the issue with irrelevant and dubious statistics.

[wwfan]

Yes, because I've refused to acknowledge there's an issue or that it's been discussed for months. All I've done is make explicit what we've been talking about and made reference to defenders not actually making that many tackles in real life, plus the issues we have with how tackles are being counted. I just take exception to people assuming things haven't been noticed or are horribly broken when they don't have the full information and are using biased perceptions that are further from reality than the current situation.

And, as always, I'm confronted with the 'please go and watch just a small amount of football' so you can see how obvious all this is. Nobody answers my questions. All the actual debate is glossed over by biases and insinuations. It might well be that defenders aren't making enough tackles or fighting enough for balls, but these opinions need to have statistical data and pkm evidence backing them up in order for any of this conversation to be useful. Garry has now at least found one example of a defender making a lot of tackles in response to the data provided on Terry and Vidic, which is useful. That kind of contribution can be worked off. Blind bias cannot.

[Wakers]

That's not the issue at all and you know it.

The issue is that as soon as someone finds a problem with the game, you come in and start trying to change the argument just enough so that you can try and prove the OP wrong, when he isn't wrong at all. Only when you have been proven wrong a few times do you admit that there may be somewhat of a problem with the game, which the rest of the people reading the thread already knew was the case.

It doesn't help the game when you do that, and it doesn't help the rest of the people who want to try and improve the game. This is why I get so annoyed with you more than any other member on this board.

[wwfan]

That's nice for you.

All I try to do is make the OP turn his opinion into an argument and explain where we have been coming from in terms of debating the issue already. This is called information exchange. If it turns out the OP cannot make an argument as there is no real world evidence to base it on, then there's no reason to listen to him. If he can, then he has proved a point and we can move on.

In this case, the OP has pointed out an issue we were already debating. One of our arguments is that FM doesn't recognise tackles in the same manner as real life statistics and actually doesn't award a successful tackle stat when it should do. isuckatfm provided an example of such a case. I've also accepted that the numbers are currently wrong, but pointed out they are not as far off reality as the OP was suggesting.

I've asked two questions which have never been answered. 1: Are any players making circa 4 tackles per game. 2: Is isuckatfm's example a tackle? This kind of stuff is vital in terms of ME development and enables us to pinpoint where issues are. Until these questions are answered, we are stuck in a position where one side is stating 'tackles are wrong, any fool can see that' whereas the other is saying 'we know, this might be the reason, what do you think?' If nobody answers these questions, we have nowhere to go as we have no common ground. No evidence, no pkms, no agreement as to what makes a tackle. Without this, all of Garry's critque is worthless.

[killimandros]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article5062765.ece

At the end there, it shows roughly about 30 tackles per game, and a long discussion about how and why number of tackles per game has decrease lately.

(short highlight;)

Beyond argument is that football is changing. ProZone statistics show defenders and central midfielders now make an average of only three tackles per Premier League game and those in other positions fewer. Figures provided by Opta reveal the average game features 23% fewer tackles than five years ago and there are fewer tackles committed per foul awarded and fewer fouls committed per yellow card issued. “It’s less ofa contact sport now,” said Davies. The debate is whether that’s good or bad.

--------ooooo-----------------oooooo-------------------ooooo----------------------0000

This thread shows on average how many tackles the top tacklers did per game (with some other useful statistics as well):

http://soccerlens.com/stat-attack-the-best-and-worst-of-the-premiership-20072008/12875/

Ball-winning Players

Obviously, there’s no passing, assisting or scoring if the ball isn’t in your team’s possession, and it is typically the central midfielders in each team who take the ball from the opposition.

Nigel Reo-Coker attempted more tackles than any other player, 178, and had an impressive 79.78% success rate. He was followed by Javier Mascherno with 165 attempted tackles and a 75.76% success, then Steed Malbranque with 158 tackles and 75.95% success.

Gael Clichy had the best tackle completion rate, winning 80.67% of the tackles he went in to, 150.

On average, Mascherano attempted a tackle every 13.1 minutes (6.6 tackles per game), Gavin McCann every 17.2 minutes, Reo-Coker every 17.5 minutes (4.94 per game), Wilson Palacios every 17.6 minutes and Steed Malbranque 18 minutes (4.27 per game).

Tackles per game 44.30 Tackle per foul 1.66

[backpackant]

This really is one of the big problem with the internet - people are more interested in winning an arguement than getting to the bottom of an issue. I've read this thread without commenting yet because there seem to be a number of issues and arguements going round in circles. From what I can tell (and do correct me if I'm wrong) there are TWO key issues:

1) when watching a match on FM10, there do not *APPEAR* to be many tackles going in. The defending teams stand off too often - whether it's the AI team or the human user - and this is a problem in terms of gameplay.

2) after a match has finished when you look at the match stats it shows a much lower number of tackles per player per match than you'd expect in real life.

So in addressing 1), WWFan has not denied there is a problem. He hasn't addressed it but he hasn't tried to sweep anything anywhere. SI staff have also been on and said yes, there may be a minor problem. Hammer has said it should have been spotted in testing, and WWfan and others have said that tackling, etc was discussed and tweaked, although now it seems not enough. Other SI staff have said it will be looked at for a patch shortly.

For the record, I agree that the defending team backs off too much at present, needs looking at, but defenders DO tackle, and it's far from unplayable.

In addressing 2) it has been explained that the stats quoted by Sky, Optra, & various newspapers are all counted differently than on FM. Sky may count an interception as a tackle, but FM does not. WWFan and SI people here have acknowledged it is probably a little low overall. From reading the posts to date, a lot has been made of these statistics, and I don't think anyone can argue further by quoting more stats from different outlets. It's an arguement comparing apples and oranges - they have no connection. It's acknowledged that it may need to change, but of the two issues it is the more cosmetic of the two.

So, in summary, going by my own experience, Hammer's and Waker's comments, replies from WWFan and SI staffers, I propose the following conclusion:

Defending needs tweaking a little.

Umm.... that's it.

[wwfan]

For the record, I agree that the defending team backs off too much at present, needs looking at, but defenders DO tackle, and it's far from unplayable.

Which sums it up pretty succinctly. It's the hyperbole, opinion expressed as fact and personal insinuations that make such threads so tiresome.

I'd still like to know what those complaining about tackles think of isuckatfm's example, though.

[TriAn]

I'd still like to know what those complaining about tackles think of isuckatfm's example, though.

This event definitely should be reflected in the stats. So it's tackle. )

[wwfan]

This event definitely should be reflected in the stats. So it's tackle. )

I'd tend to agree. Which is why it is important to debate it, as it has relevance to the entire critique.

[mightymind]

The real debate is not in the number of tackles counted by FM.

Forget once the analysis tool !!! And please just see few 3D match in full 90 min. You will notice that the player without ball are static too often, and that's why we feel that there is no fight, the passes seem to be nice many times, not enough interceptions.

If SI increqse slightly the movement ( reaction ) of players, it will give a nice game with more pressing ( the minimum required in a modern football ), tackles, interceptions, and missed passes ( with pressure ). So the player having the ball will have to be really creative to create an original to get a solution for attack, the game will become really unexpected, and more fight will be there in the middle of the pithc.

Hope to be clear enough, and please stay in this way and don't change the topic by seing the result of the analysis ( the result will be what will happened on the pitch, that's it ! ), this is another topic .

[Mitja]

The real debate is not in the number of tackles counted by FM.

Forget once the analysis tool !!! And please just see few 3D match in full 90 min. You will notice that the player without ball are static too often, and that's why we feel that there is no fight, the passes seem to be nice many times, not enough interceptions.

If SI increqse slightly the movement ( reaction ) of players, it will give a nice game with more pressing ( the minimum required in a modern football ), tackles, interceptions, and missed passes ( with pressure ). So the player having the ball will have to be really creative to create an original to get a solution for attack, the game will become really unexpected, and more fight will be there in the middle of the pithc.

Hope to be clear enough, and please stay in this way and don't change the topic by seing the result of the analysis ( the result will be what will happened on the pitch, that's it ! ), this is another topic .

for me one of the main defensive weakness in all FMs has allways been how closing down works.

the point of closing down is to regain posession via stealing the ball from opponent directly or forcing him to make a mistake. imo the closing down game in FM is not as effective compared to real life becouse AI incompetence to anticipate in advance.

in real life defender will start to press opponent as soon as he sees the ball being played towards attacking player in zone under his responsibility. he will anticipate the move and try to restrict the time attacking player has on the ball. in FM defender will not start pressing untill attacking player is in posession of the ball. maybe this doesn't sound as such important thing but it is very important. that's why you need to have players capable of playing good pressing game to be effective.

I believe if this AI's 'reactive speed', and ability to anticipate things was improved, we would witness the things you mention. there would be more mistakes, more 50/50 balls, more fighting for the ball.. maybe even the starting position of defenders could be improved this way, as attacking players would have less chance and less time to control the ball.

[backpackant]

The real debate is not in the number of tackles counted by FM.

Forget once the analysis tool !!! And please just see few 3D match in full 90 min. You will notice that the player without ball are static too often, and that's why we feel that there is no fight, the passes seem to be nice many times, not enough interceptions.

If SI increqse slightly the movement ( reaction ) of players, it will give a nice game with more pressing ( the minimum required in a modern football ), tackles, interceptions, and missed passes ( with pressure ). So the player having the ball will have to be really creative to create an original to get a solution for attack, the game will become really unexpected, and more fight will be there in the middle of the pithc.

Hope to be clear enough, and please stay in this way and don't change the topic by seing the result of the analysis ( the result will be what will happened on the pitch, that's it ! ), this is another topic .

Correct. That IS the real debate IMO.

WWFan, and the SI guys (and me for what it's worth) who've posted here have not denied a problem. Simply took the feedback on board and agreed to look at it. But to say there are *NO* tackles in the match engine is wrong. There are tackles.

The muddying of the discussion seems to come from posters saying, "Look, there are no tackles in the ME, my defenders never, ever tackle," and then post screenshots of tackling stats to support that statement. Unfortunately, one is not representative of the other.

Defender do tackle, just not often enough. They back off and wait for an opportunity to nip in and clear the ball instead of getting stuck in.

And Paul (I think) from SI has asked the question whether an interception or a headed clearence should be counted as a tackle. If a winger knocks the ball ahead of the defender, but the defender manages to get to the ball before the winger catches up, should THAT be a tackle? And so on.

I expect the first issue (closing down, winning the ball) will be fixed for patch one, but the stats details we'll probably have to wait for. And since it's fairly cosmetic, I don't really care. Just get them to stick the boot in once in a while.

[mightymind]

Paul,

Could you please comment this topic, the original one ( not the way how the tackles will be counted, which is only polish ).

Thanks for your reply.

for me one of the main defensive weakness in all FMs has allways been how closing down works.

the point of closing down is to regain posession via stealing the ball from opponent directly or forcing him to make a mistake. imo the closing down game in FM is not as effective compared to real life becouse AI incompetence to anticipate in advance.

in real life defender will start to press opponent as soon as he sees the ball being played towards attacking player in zone under his responsibility. he will anticipate the move and try to restrict the time attacking player has on the ball. in FM defender will not start pressing untill attacking player is in posession of the ball. maybe this doesn't sound as such important thing but it is very important. that's why you need to have players capable of playing good pressing game to be effective.

I believe if this AI's 'reactive speed', and ability to anticipate things was improved, we would witness the things you mention. there would be more mistakes, more 50/50 balls, more fighting for the ball.. maybe even the starting position of defenders could be improved this way, as attacking players would have less chance and less time to control the ball.

[PaulC]

It's an interesting point but it supposed to work that way already. Perhaps the poster can help us out by providing some clear cut examples :-)

[mightymind]

So many examples has been sent through the ftp site.

This topic is still without reply in the 3d engine bug ( subject : " defense bug" )

Thanks for all who wants to prove more to send again some more match examples with passive dfense !

It's an interesting point but it supposed to work that way already. Perhaps the poster can help us out by providing some clear cut examples :-)

[stoned_assasin]

I havent played the demo yet but im wondering if anyone has tested that looking at the screen shot provided on page 1, which obviously was not classed as a tackle on the stats page whether it was classed as an inteception instead?

If it was, then the problem isnt that big for me. What i want to see from the stats page (obvioulsy) is how my players have performed over the 90 min. But if the tackle has gone unoticed as well as the interception as what the guy that posted seems to suggest the game classes it in that way, then for me this will be a huge problem.

Please give some feedback on this as im looking to buy the game tomorrow to play over the weekend, but if both tackles and interceptions goes untoticed i would rather wait for a fix.

[mightymind]

The real debate is not in the number of tackles counted by FM.

Forget once the analysis tool !!! And please just see few 3D match in full 90 min. You will notice that the player without ball are static too often, and that's why we feel that there is no fight, the passes seem to be nice many times, not enough interceptions.

If SI increqse slightly the movement ( reaction ) of players, it will give a nice game with more pressing ( the minimum required in a modern football ), tackles, interceptions, and missed passes ( with pressure ). So the player having the ball will have to be really creative to create an original to get a solution for attack, the game will become really unexpected, and more fight will be there in the middle of the pithc.

Hope to be clear enough, and please stay in this way and don't change the topic by seing the result of the analysis ( the result will be what will happened on the pitch, that's it ! ), this is another topic .

I havent played the demo yet but im wondering if anyone has tested that looking at the screen shot provided on page 1, which obviously was not classed as a tackle on the stats page whether it was classed as an inteception instead?

If it was, then the problem isnt that big for me. What i want to see from the stats page (obvioulsy) is how my players have performed over the 90 min. But if the tackle has gone unoticed as well as the interception as what the guy that posted seems to suggest the game classes it in that way, then for me this will be a huge problem.

Please give some feedback on this as im looking to buy the game tomorrow to play over the weekend, but if both tackles and interceptions goes untoticed i would rather wait for a fix.

[stoned_assasin]

The real debate is not in the number of tackles counted by FM.

Forget once the analysis tool !!! And please just see few 3D match in full 90 min. You will notice that the player without ball are static too often, and that's why we feel that there is no fight, the passes seem to be nice many times, not enough interceptions.

If SI increqse slightly the movement ( reaction ) of players, it will give a nice game with more pressing ( the minimum required in a modern football ), tackles, interceptions, and missed passes ( with pressure ). So the player having the ball will have to be really creative to create an original to get a solution for attack, the game will become really unexpected, and more fight will be there in the middle of the pithc.

Hope to be clear enough, and please stay in this way and don't change the topic by seing the result of the analysis ( the result will be what will happened on the pitch, that's it ! ), this is another topic .

Fair enough i just thought from reading the views from the si team, that they seemed to think tackles where taking place but it didnt show up as a tackle but classed it as an interception (in which i thought that would be workable). Ive been playing the game since its 1st release way back on the commadore amiga, and i have been hugely disapointed with a few of their recent releases to the point where the last copy stayed on my shelf gathering dust. By what you are saying seems that the ME is only 50% there where the attacking element seems ok but the defensive element atm does not exist. I hoped from the many complaints received from the 09 edition that si would concentrate hard on not releasing yet another broken version. I guess i will have to just try the demo this time before i buy the game as im not going to spend the best part of 30 quid to just sit in the corner somwhere gathering dust.

[mightymind]

Mais que faut-il faire pour qu'un membre de SI se rende compte du problème de défense statique.

Nous exigeons un commentaire contructif, est-ce tabou ?

MERCI!!!

[PaulC]

Mais que faut-il faire pour qu'un membre de SI se rende compte du problème de défense statique.

Nous exigeons un commentaire contructif, est-ce tabou ?

MERCI!!!

Next time you do this you are getting a warning.

[PaulC]

Fair enough i just thought from reading the views from the si team, that they seemed to think tackles where taking place but it didnt show up as a tackle but classed it as an interception (in which i thought that would be workable). Ive been playing the game since its 1st release way back on the commadore amiga, and i have been hugely disapointed with a few of their recent releases to the point where the last copy stayed on my shelf gathering dust. By what you are saying seems that the ME is only 50% there where the attacking element seems ok but the defensive element atm does not exist. I hoped from the many complaints received from the 09 edition that si would concentrate hard on not releasing yet another broken version. I guess i will have to just try the demo this time before i buy the game as im not going to spend the best part of 30 quid to just sit in the corner somwhere gathering dust.

Let your own eyes be the judge - that is what the demo is for

[Loversleaper]

There's been a change in how the ME recognises tackles. All 50-50 fight balls are now considered tackles, meaning the successful percentages are going to be much lower as a large number of tackle situations have to have one player losing the tackle. It doesn't necessarily mean the type of tackles in previous MEs are any lower, as these were based on a tackler challenging a man in full control of the ball.

This looks to be the case, but I think that a lot of Gamers are unsatisfied that the assistant manager always critisizes your 'abysmal' tackling. I believe that Gamers today would like to know for sure if what they are trying to implement actually has a positive effect so they at least have an indication that they are on the right track or not...

[wwfan]

This looks to be the case, but I think that a lot of gamers are unsatisfied that the assistant manager always critisizes your 'abysmal' tackling. I believe that Gamers today would like to know for sure if what they are trying to implement actually has a positive effect so they at least have an indication that they are on the right track...

I'd accept that. Completion percentages are definitely flawed.

[Sonic2006]

As soon as I get the full game, I am going to sit down and look at a few of the games and find exact points for reference.

[Mensell76]

Whatever how the tackles are counted in the analysis tools, we don't care, the main topic of Hammer was to say this ( the real fight and defence problem during the match in FM ! ):

Hello Paul,

Thanks for getting involved in this thread. I read your solution but I do not think the problem lies in clearances not being counted as tackles. It is not that much about what counts as a tackle or what does not, but the problem really is about the actual defending in fm2010.

Looking at full matches, I am not seeing defenders (mainly central) getting into a physical one to one contact with the attackers. An attacker gets the ball, you see a dc walk towards him and then back off again. Defending is not realistic, in real life football good defenders get into contact with the attacker, stick a foot in front of the attacker and clear the ball, tackle when the defender gets past him etc. The only good defending from central defenders I am seeing so far is when there is an attack through the air, the defender goes into a one on one heading combat and wins it.

For the rest only the ball winning midfielder, the wingers and sometimes the full backs get into over the ground defensive action in the FM2010 demo. For the rest defending is very static: keep the attacker in front of you and do nothing. It does not add up to the tactics (closing down, hard tackling, stopper), I expect to see proactive defensive work from my team instead of reactive.

In fm2009 key extended highlights often showed the promise of a good attack being ended by a good defensive interception by one of the defenders. I loved that, it gave me the feeling that buying good defenders actually mattered in the endresult. I want to see the player attributes being reflected in actual gameplay. In fm2010 SI has done a splendid job on the wingers, the SC, the central midfielders, but the full backs and defenders just do not do what they are hired to do

Do not get me wrong, I am not seeing weird scorelines, fm2010 overall is very balanced in gameplay. It is just the way defenders act without the ball in the matches that is causing gameplay in fm2010 to be very disappointing (once you really notice the problem it becomes a big annoyance, not every is seeing it or not everyone finds it a problem, however it actually and factually is an excisting issue).

Please fix the defending problem asap or release an extra patch 10.1.2 before releasing patch 10.2. We do not want the promise of a great game and only experiencing a great game months after buying it.

First of, the above post was a reply by me in the match defending bug thread.

I think Paul C has already stated he will look into it and more or less concurs that players are standing too far away from each other to really get into "tackling" With tackling I do not mean a player going to the ground and tackling away a ball. Modern day defending is about physical contact, a defender backing into the attacker and getting in front of the player, winning the ball.

Because central defenders and midfielders allow their opponents so much space, I am not seeing their defensive attributes in actual gameplay. In fm2009 I had a fantastic physical aggressive defender with 20 on marking and tackling, a high aggresivity, good positioning and almost unbeatable in the air. In the actual gameplay it translated to a modern day defender who was breathing in an attackers neck when the attacker did not control a ball quickly enough, snitching balls away, making a fair share of professional fouls, getting a yellow card here and there because of hard tackles. Seeing that defender play really gave me the feeling I had bought one of the best defenders in the world (fitting his description "world class defender" haha).

In fm2010 that part of the experience is lacking. I am not seeing the good defensive attributes of players being translated to excellent defensive gameplay. There is no real visible difference between John Terry or a 2d rate defender. As long as they both have good heading and are quick and have good positioning they will both do a fine job in clearing crosses and winning headers.

I do not care about real life statistics that much. I am not asking for defenders to tackle all the time. Good defenders do not need to tackle all that much, but they will make their presence felt to the attackers. In fm2010 though we see attackers who can freely turn and look around and not being bothered.

End of the day, Paul C already says players standing too far away from each other is under review. That leads me to believe SI will clearly work this situation out. Hopefully patch 10.2 won't take too long.

[PaulC]

To clarify.

When I say its under review, I dont say its 100% the answer or even 100% an issue. I think there is an argument for making players mark closer especially when asked to mark tight but we'd need to try it out in the 10.2 beta phase and make sure it doesnt cause more trouble than its worth!

And as for making defending more effective..... That will also entail making attacking equally more effective, which btw is probably the hardest ME task of all, so we all have to be aware of that.

[Mensell76]

To clarify.

When I say its under review, I dont say its 100% the answer or even 100% an issue. I think there is an argument for making players mark closer especially when asked to mark tight but we'd need to try it out in the 10.2 beta phase and make sure it doesnt cause more trouble than its worth!

And as for making defending more effective..... That will also entail making attacking equally more effective, which btw is probably the hardest ME task of all, so we all have to be aware of that.

Yes making attacking equally more effective when making defending more effective was part of a problem I envisioned in the match defending bug thread as well. I think it is a good starting point that something is under review. I feel confident when all evidence that has been put in, Si will also see defending needs to be worked on, especially compared to fm2009, which overall had a terrific gameplay overall and really translated player attributes as good as we might have expected for a first 3d gameplay.

[lance101]

Attackers must be able to trick defenders in close ranger better than they do now. The only instances of an attacker getting past a defender I see now are when attackers blow by defenders in full speed, and there are lots of examples in real life of players that get through others just with clever dribbling, even when rather slow...

[Loversleaper]

I don't quite understand the part about defending is a problem. The assistants' evaluation of your defending might be somewhat off (it needs to be fixed), but I can't see the defending difficulties mentioned. I think it is because too many Gamers are putting too much faith in the 'creator' and think automatically the pre-set tactical settings will work wonders. They (game makers) could put in the best instructions and we all can win easily, but I don't think that they had this in mind (they never did before). The pre-set tactics are more of the 'standard' quality, in other words: nothing special, but using them correctly might cause you to overperform a little (generally speaking) but I still think that the best settings are the ones we will find through trial and error...

[lance101]

Loversleaper: It has nothing to do with creator or classic tactics, just try putting all your team in closing down full and tackling hard, and you will still see that players tend to stand off the attacker a lot more than you would expect someone in real life to do, given those instructions. Also, when you see a winger with the ball for example, he barely ever will just dribble past the defender, rather the defender will keep blocking his path, without making much of an effort to actually tackle him.

[DaGringoKilla]

Will we have to wait untill the jan patch for this to be fixed?

[Echi]

Well , Defending in FM is not as good as you would say if you compare to real life. But take in the issue About How FM games are played and how Real life games are played, both are different, some say the Defending is bad in FM but.

I think the way FM defends are different by the way real life defenders if what i just said its understandable. We all say that the defending is bad in FM ? but if its bad then the avg amount of goals will be very high since you guys say they don't tackle ect. but its not avg amount of goals in a match is realistic ,

I have been watching matches and i would say that the defenders have not been sticking their foot out and trying to snatch the ball, the way that a play can go wrong i noticed most of the time is cause of passing mistakes , shooting far , a weird kind of pressuring,passes that go wrong (that happens lots of times) we can't really complain of the effort of defending since FM covers that by the poor amount of chances that strikers score and the not needed far shots and passes ect which makes the score's 1-3, 1-2 so its not something which will provide the ball to the other opposition. isnt that what defending is about? getting back the ball .

Them mistakes that i quoted happen a lot of times , even if you spot unrealistic amount of effort that the defenders do but the aim that defenders try to make is to stop play, is to get your team the ball back . if you look at possession you will officiously see your team having a % more then 40 which means that you have been proved with the ball ect. But it wasn't the amount of realistic tackles ect, It was the mistakes of passes and the far shots . if you complain about defending you should look at the score bored and the possession your team has ect. and if you get received the ball after the opposition fails to continue their attack. i know that some plays might be cause of bad tackles.

Effectually your team would of conceded a goal, never mind the less of the amount of defending, if S.I changes this , think about the avg about of goals you will score a match ect. Each match is like 3-0 3-2 ,2-1, 1-0, if you increase the defending it will be like 1-0, 0-0 since it will be harder to score then it already is since the attacking of the game is already have its own uniqueness that Real life doesn't have and that's miss clear cut chances that should be easy to score.

[FM1000]

Attackers must be able to trick defenders in close ranger better than they do now. The only instances of an attacker getting past a defender I see now are when attackers blow by defenders in full speed, and there are lots of examples in real life of players that get through others just with clever dribbling, even when rather slow...

Completely agree.More dribbling past players is needed in the ME and more diversity in dribbling.

[Loversleaper]

Loversleaper: It has nothing to do with creator or classic tactics, just try putting all your team in closing down full and tackling hard, and you will still see that players tend to stand off the attacker a lot more than you would expect someone in real life to do, given those instructions. Also, when you see a winger with the ball for example, he barely ever will just dribble past the defender, rather the defender will keep blocking his path, without making much of an effort to actually tackle him.

There are some variables that you must take into consideration: there is an 'overall capability' aspect which might cause your players to be unable to handle implemented settings. It might be developed this way just to ensure that we don't just use extreme slider settings that automatically over-ride the AI's mechanism. It's too early to suggest your (and others) experiences are not an outcome from tactical settings, as I said: I don't have too much faith in the 'automated' settings that follow with the game (as usual) so I think it will be a matter of time before we fully realise how to make settings work in conjuction with our team's overall capability...

[lance101]

Well , Defending in FM is not as good as you would say if you compare to real life. But take in the issue About How FM games are played and how Real life games are played, both are different, some say the Defending is bad in FM but.

I think the way FM defends are different by the way real life defenders if what i just said its understandable. We all say that the defending is bad in FM ? but if its bad then the avg amount of goals will be very high since you guys say they don't tackle ect. but its not avg amount of goals in a match is realistic ,

I have been watching matches and i would say that the defenders have not been sticking their foot out and trying to snatch the ball, the way that a play can go wrong i noticed most of the time is cause of passing mistakes , shooting far , a weird kind of pressuring,passes that go wrong (that happens lots of times) we can't really complain of the effort of defending since FM covers that by the poor amount of chances that strikers score and the not needed far shots and passes ect which makes the score's 1-3, 1-2 so its not something which will provide the ball to the other opposition. isnt that what defending is about? getting back the ball .

Them mistakes that i quoted happen a lot of times , even if you spot unrealistic amount of effort that the defenders do but the aim that defenders try to make is to stop play, is to get your team the ball back . if you look at possession you will officiously see your team having a % more then 40 which means that you have been proved with the ball ect. But it wasn't the amount of realistic tackles ect, It was the mistakes of passes and the far shots . if you complain about defending you should look at the score bored and the possession your team has ect. and if you get received the ball after the opposition fails to continue their attack. i know that some plays might be cause of bad tackles.

Effectually your team would of conceded a goal, never mind the less of the amount of defending, if S.I changes this , think about the avg about of goals you will score a match ect. Each match is like 3-0 3-2 ,2-1, 1-0, if you increase the defending it will be like 1-0, 0-0 since it will be harder to score then it already is since the attacking of the game is already have its own uniqueness that Real life doesn't have and that's miss clear cut chances that should be easy to score.

Completely agree with most of your points... Also for me it is not that defending is "poor" in the sense of conceding too many goals, but rather that both defending and attacking are unrealistic if you try watching the full matches. One needs to see more clever dribbling by players, but also more committing defense, instead of just stand off defense.

[lance101]

There are some variables that you must take into consideration: there is an 'overall capability' aspect which might cause your players to be unable to handle implemented settings. It might be developed this way just to ensure that we don't just use extreme slider settings that automatically over-ride the AI's mechanism. It's too early to suggest your (and others) experiences are not an outcome from tactical settings, as I said: I don't have too much faith in the 'automated' settings that follow with the game (as usual) so I think it will be a matter of time before we fully realise how to make settings work in conjuction with our team's overall capability...

Just one quick point lovesleaper.. these changes I talked about in tackling and closing down were implemented in classic mode, not in the tactics creator... I was already trying to make defenders, midfielders and attackers as aggressive as possible in the match engine, not just as possible according to the templates of the new "wizard".

[Loversleaper]

Just one quick point lovesleaper.. these changes I talked about in tackling and closing down were implemented in classic mode, not in the tactics creator... I was already trying to make defenders, midfielders and attackers as aggressive as possible in the match engine, not just as possible according to the templates of the new "wizard".

The overall capability still is the issue here. 'Overall capability' is not only what settings your team can handle, it can also be effected by your opponent's overall capability verses your team's overall capability. This could create a limitation on what type of settings will be feasible for that given match...

[lance101]

Well, but if even with these extreme settings it isn't possible to make our players aggressively tackle opponents, under exactly what kind of situation do you think that would happen??

[Loversleaper]

Well, but if even with these extreme settings it isn't possible to make our players aggressively tackle opponents, under exactly what kind of situation do you think that would happen??

The 'overall capability' aspect is created so that player's attributes (out of 20) somehow coincide with tactical settings (also out of 20), creating an 'overall value'. This value is then measured against your next opponent''s overall value, and this creates a limitation in what settings could work best causing your tackling to work (visually). If you override your capability for that match then I can only imagine that it will fail, and as mentioned I think that the reason SI implemented it this way was to avoid us Gamers exploiting extreme settings that will automatically over-ride the AI mechanism. The AI has two mechanisms, which is an attacking one and a defensive one, and they differ in valuables, one reason being that the home team has a procentage advantage compared to playing away. Last version there was an unbalance of around 6% which I think they (game coders) have tried to resolve, but all in all there are different aspects we are looking at before we can determine which settings work best for the next fixture.

The sliders directions trigger the attacking or the defensive 'mechanism', and on both sides there are roughly 10 positions we can adopt. You might have to make an assumption how much procentage you can use against the next opponent (pre-match odds are a good indication), once you have established what directions the sliders have to move (also in conjunction with one and other) to make the overall game plan work...

[lance101]

I believe you are over complicating the issue a lot... I know that if I'm telling players to press and tackle a lot, and they don't have the attributes for it, they should fail, either by being faked in the moment they try tackling, or by hitting the player instead of the ball, resulting in a foul. What I don't expect is that when I put the players in the most aggressive stance possible, they just pressure the opponents with their eyes, instead of actually challenging for the ball. You seem to believe that if somehow we pick some kind of "magic" intermediate level of instructions players will be more aggressive and tackle more often, and I just don't see how that is possible, when even when instructing the players to tackle as often as possible they DON'T.

[mightymind]

Paul,

What's wrong I've spoken ? I did not insulted anybody, I've jsut express my impatience and my passion for this problem with my mothertongue language. French is not banished from this forum I hope.

Thanks to clear what you felt bad in my reply.

Next time you do this you are getting a warning.

[Mikke]

Paul,

What's wrong I've spoken ? I did not insulted anybody, I've jsut express my impatience and my passion for this problem with my mothertongue language. French is not banished from this forum I hope.

Thanks to clear what you felt bad in my reply.

May I suggest reading the rules of this forum? Start with this: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=28417

[dsch]

While we're on this topic, can someone explain the massive number of fouls and bookings? It's like normal tackling's gone out of fashion.

[Pangaea]

What do you mean by "massive"? What figures are you looking at in your matches?

From memory I'm getting around 10, give or take a few, per team in a match, which seems fine to me when compared with RL matches.

[Polar Bear]

Stricter refs are one of the improvements imo, I always felt they were too lenient compared to RL. Annoying when one of your players gets sent off for something that looks innocuous, but again that's realism for you.

[olfrud]

Hello

I tried to point out a tackling problem (among some other observations) where included some real life stats from one site with stats, but nobody commented on there from SI.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?p=4058558#post4058558

Don't know, I didn't get my full copy yet, but think this could ruin a reality of the game a little bit...

[Marek_Hamsik]

All i noticed in FM2010 is a general lack of aggression from players.

They seem to suffer from what I like to call the "AI Zombie effect". This is when you can blatantly tell that you are witnessing an item of code in a computer generated 3D environment, trying to express a conscious being (ie human) but during the rendition the Zombie tends to show lack of natural instinct/intellect/decision making.

We with our own eyes quickly see that a player on the game, is in an unatural position, not being aggressive enough, not going hard enough into tackles.

I didn't really get that in FM09, but I can really see it in FM10. Especially as I watch a lot of EPL and am playing in the EPL on my test game and it seems more like an amature game.

This is an actual problem I have noticed across nearly every single football sim I have ever played.

[Hammer1000]

Is there an acceptance yet that this is a major issue and not just about certain clearances/interceptions not being counted as tackles?

Its important to me because it will mean the difference between buying FM10 or not.

[backpackant]

I think it's an issue. Severity is one of opinion. I think it could be improved upon but not a game breaker for me.

Paul, I think, said they will look at it so it's certainly not being ignored.

He also said this, combined with attacking prowess is the toughest part of the ME to tweak.