Why No News on Newgens/Regen Long Term Game Playability?

[torsportsfan]

Very depressing, SI have made great strides to the game, but it wont keep my interest for long if the newgens are even worse in 10 than they are in 2009

[Blanchflower1]

I still don't get why people liked the regens in FM09.

DON'T YOU GET THAT THEY WERE UNREALISTIC ??? !!!

I saw 5 Messi's being produced every year.Really ? Since when did we start seeing A new Messi every year.

In FM 2008, people were complaining that the regens were not up to standard and now in FM 2009, people are complaining that the regens are too good! I guess we can't please everyone!!

[Sir Stuart Wilson]

That is what bothers me most the likes of Bravery, Determination are weighted when they really shouldn't be given that they are static attributes which neither decline nor improve with training or age. HOw many researched players on the initial game database will have 3 for Bravery? How many will have under 8 for that matter, not as many as when the newgens start appearing.

Doesn't make for good viewing given the players posted above, looks like it is still in the same state with the same problems thaty have always been.

[jayahr]

That is what bothers me most the likes of Bravery, Determination are weighted when they really shouldn't be given that they are static attributes which neither decline nor improve with training or age. HOw many researched players on the initial game database will have 3 for Bravery? How many will have under 8 for that matter, not as many as when the newgens start appearing.

Doesn't make for good viewing given the players posted above, looks like it is still in the same state with the same problems thaty have always been.

At least Determination is not static.

[Sir Stuart Wilson]

I have seen determination go up or down one but on the whole it is a static attribute and shouldn't really change.

[Super Bladesman]

I bet that Pierre would turn into an amazing player.

[santy001]

I wouldn't read too much into the regens we see at one or two clubs in Brazil. There is screenshots of 5 of what should be a couple hundred players coming through.

[Dan13L]

Also those players are only 14!!! Could be 5 or 6 years before they're ready to play proper.

[jayahr]

I have seen determination go up or down one but on the whole it is a static attribute and shouldn't really change.

Why? :confused: The determination of a player is likely to change if you ask me. A developing personality should be able to either develop a higher sense of determination or see a decline, maybe after having achieved enough to make one lose the hunger for more success.

[Sir Stuart Wilson]

Why? :confused: The determination of a player is likely to change if you ask me. A developing personality should be able to either develop a higher sense of determination or see a decline, maybe after having achieved enough to make one lose the hunger for more success.

Determination is a mental stat which people have and cannot be trained in people, you cannot be trained to be more determined nor can you take it out from people. It is a definite stat and quality in people specific to them and is just the way they are much like people are brave and bravery cannot be taught enhanced or trained.

maybe after having achieved enough to make one lose the hunger for more success.

This would be to do with ambition I would say which maybe effected and in some cases if not all work in conjunction with determination. If you have won all you can like Ronaldo did at Man U he decides he no longer has the heart for them or English football so sees a move away to Madrid as a way of winning more being ambitious and determined to win even more than he already has. whereas someone with lower determination but high ambition may think it would be easier to stay at the same team where he has won everything and not have the heart or determination to then push himself there after, just performing in his comfort zone as he doesn't have the heart for a new challenge to further prove himself.

That's how I see it tbh.

[Riz Remes]

As a note on the older player decline discussed above regarding long term gameplay, yes that has been one of the areas also looked at in detail for FM2010. And based on the results from extensive testing this should be quite realistic now with regards to both CA progression and individual attribute progression once players age past their peak.

These are really a series of questions for people at SI as I see they have replied to post in this thread.

Are the stats values created first and positions assigned based on the stats?

Are stats values created, a position assigned then the stats modified?

Do you use archetypes? e.g. generate a player as a ball winning midfielder and make sure all necessary attributes meet a minimum specification?

Have you done statistical analysis on the real players in an initial data base, e.g. what percentage of players have jumping of 15 or better, what percentage of these have strength of 15 or better what positions does these stats correlate to?

I ask because as others have said it’s common to find newgens who are undermined by key attributes being low. E.g. After a few season you might find a lot of defensive midfielders with low (sub 12) bravery but in the initial database I bet such players make up a tiny fraction of defensive midfielders and the majority of those will be deep playmakers whose skills lie in passing and building attacks.

-Player position is generated first (based on the ratio of different positions in real life/the DB).

-Attribute values are then generated based on the positional weighting of attributes and then somewhat modified.

-No, we do not use archetypes or "templates" currently as this would require a lot more than just a few templates to keep the variety of players rather than having tons of carbon copies of existing stereotypes.

-We do statistical analysis on our soak tests by doing the same analysis of the starting DB and the game DB after some 20-30 years of gameplay. This analysis includes (but is not limited to) average age, average CA/PA, player footedness, player position distribution, CA distribution, PA distribution, CA/PA average per age, attribute averages and number of high attributes. And naturally this includes similar analysis on non-players as well. And this is just the raw statistical analysis since we do have regular long term gameplay testing as well where testers evaluate these things just by looking at the game itself.

I'm not saying the game is perfect (as it never is and probably never will be) and is creating newgens that will match a 100% in every attribute when comparing against established players rated by researchers in the DB, but going by both the gameplay testing and the statistical analysis, I think it is doing a pretty good job with the newgens and player progress overall.

[Riz Remes]

And regards to the screenshots posted, the fact still remains these are 14-15 year olds. I'm not sure what you are expecting of kids this age but surely their attributes cannot resemble anything close to the levels of even your regular adult players not to mention star players ? The players develope as they train and gain experience as they age, so a lot of those attributes will be going up by quite a lot before they are the finished product.

[Sir Stuart Wilson]

And regards to the screenshots posted, the fact still remains these are 14-15 year olds. I'm not sure what you are expecting of kids this age but surely their attributes cannot resemble anything close to the levels of even your regular adult players not to mention star players ? The players develope as they train and gain experience as they age, so a lot of those attributes will be going up by quite a lot before they are the finished product.

But the fact the absolute stats are so poor is worrying regardles of age of them. A 14 year old can be as brave or determined and aggressive as a seasoned professional and cannot and should not be related to ability or training. There will be no more advance until this sort of thing is sorted as the game will just continue to produce these sort of weirdly attributed players with random mental stats related to the ca of the player on his birth/generation in the game.

[jayahr]

Determination is a mental stat which people have and cannot be trained in people, you cannot be trained to be more determined nor can you take it out from people. It is a definite stat and quality in people specific to them and is just the way they are much like people are brave and bravery cannot be taught enhanced or trained.

This would be to do with ambition I would say which maybe effected and in some cases if not all work in conjunction with determination. If you have won all you can like Ronaldo did at Man U he decides he no longer has the heart for them or English football so sees a move away to Madrid as a way of winning more being ambitious and determined to win even more than he already has. whereas someone with lower determination but high ambition may think it would be easier to stay at the same team where he has won everything and not have the heart or determination to then push himself there after, just performing in his comfort zone as he doesn't have the heart for a new challenge to further prove himself.

That's how I see it tbh.

Fair enough. I just see my own determination at work change on a daily basis. Maybe the average would then be my attribute, but I consider this to be changeable. I would be immensely sad if I wasn't able to develop that mental skill in me.

But maybe we do have different concepts of what determination actually is. Not being a native speaker, mine is what the manual says

[jayahr]

As a note on the older player decline discussed above regarding long term gameplay, yes that has been one of the areas also looked at in detail for FM2010. And based on the results from extensive testing this should be quite realistic now with regards to both CA progression and individual attribute progression once players age past their peak.

-Player position is generated first (based on the ratio of different positions in real life/the DB).

-Attribute values are then generated based on the positional weighting of attributes and then somewhat modified.

-No, we do not use archetypes or "templates" currently as this would require a lot more than just a few templates to keep the variety of players rather than having tons of carbon copies of existing stereotypes.

-We do statistical analysis on our soak tests by doing the same analysis of the starting DB and the game DB after some 20-30 years of gameplay. This analysis includes (but is not limited to) average age, average CA/PA, player footedness, player position distribution, CA distribution, PA distribution, CA/PA average per age, attribute averages and number of high attributes. And naturally this includes similar analysis on non-players as well. And this is just the raw statistical analysis since we do have regular long term gameplay testing as well where testers evaluate these things just by looking at the game itself.

I'm not saying the game is perfect (as it never is and probably never will be) and is creating newgens that will match a 100% in every attribute when comparing against established players rated by researchers in the DB, but going by both the gameplay testing and the statistical analysis, I think it is doing a pretty good job with the newgens and player progress overall.

That's very interesting information

One thing which was criticised often and always deemed to be very frustrating was that some newgens could have a world class CA at a certain point but yet an abysmal rating in an absolute key attribute for their position, like a DC of 180CA with an 8 for marking.

The problem is that if you just look at spreads of age, footedness, ability or attributes this sort of irregularity (or lack of logic) is likely to be missed.

While I agree that of course we don't want carbon copy players and have some with few outstanding attributes while others are more levelled, any extreme low in a key attribute can render a player useless for his actual CA level. If those went or at least appeared far less often it would probably be a huge step forward in the estimation of most users. Especially as I cannot think about any examples of world class strikers with finishing <10 or centre backs with marking <10 in the original DB.

Could you give us some info on whether this issue was addressed as well? Cheers

[torsportsfan]

But the fact the absolute stats are so poor is worrying regardles of age of them. A 14 year old can be as brave or determined and aggressive as a seasoned professional and cannot and should not be related to ability or training. There will be no more advance until this sort of thing is sorted as the game will just continue to produce these sort of weirdly attributed players with random mental stats related to the ca of the player on his birth/generation in the game.

^

This

As he said, when your 15, you shouldent have 1-5 determination or bravery unless your a p***y.

I have decided that whenever I get the game(should hopefully be on release week) I am going to do an extensive 20 year sim to see if Riz is indeed right and it has been improved(hopefully genie scout is out then) because right now I am not so convinced especially with this newgen crop, since Gremio and Fluminense have one of the top youth academies in the world, imagine what a normal team would have in their newgen crop?

[grep]

Will be perhaps a far chance of having a Maradona or Pelè to born within 50 game years ?

It would be real IMO.

[Jam_Man]

It's very rare these days, but look at the likes of Sir Stanley Matthews, still playing for England at 44, playing in the top flight until 50 and played his last match age 63. At 50 he was still an excellent crosser and dribbler of the ball, able to beat his man. He didn't have pace, but he had technique. On FM, it would be entirely impossible for a player to keep on with the way stat decay currently works. In 20 years time you'll be able to give Beckham a ball and he will still be able to hit it well, Pele was at Stoke's ground a few years ago and he was given a ball and you could see that the instinct of a player is still there, in black polished shoes he could still hit a ball better than many of us on here could.

Stanley Mathews played half a century ago, completely different game and players werent the athletes they are today.

Its very rare for any player to be able to cope after 37 or 38 now, although of course there are always exceptions such as Paul Furlong at 41, albeit in League Two.

Just because players retain technique like Pele no doubt has theres no way they could compete at any decent level past 40.

As for FM, the problem I have with it is there are too many players playing in their 30's, teams just dont seem to stop playing them. If regens were changed to allow them to play even longer this problem would get even worse.

[Riz Remes]

While I agree that of course we don't want carbon copy players and have some with few outstanding attributes while others are more levelled, any extreme low in a key attribute can render a player useless for his actual CA level. If those went or at least appeared far less often it would probably be a huge step forward in the estimation of most users. Especially as I cannot think about any examples of world class strikers with finishing <10 or centre backs with marking <10 in the original DB.

Could you give us some info on whether this issue was addressed as well? Cheers

Like I said above, we do not just look at averages but we also keep an eye on the levels of high attributes and some combinations of key attributes in the soak analysis. And we do still do regular manual testing on the long term games, by going through the soaks by hand to get a better hands on feel of the combination of attributes etc.

I've just had a quick look at newgens from an FM2010 soak in 2022 and out of the top DC's (165+ in CA) the lowest Marking attribute was 12 and that was on two players who were DC/DMC and DC/MC so those two were not solely natural DC's. As for similar top strikers in the same soak, lowest Finishing was a one-off case of 13. I also looked up the highest CA striker to have a finishing <10 (ie. 9) being a 22-year old with a CA of 132, so still time to work on that although he did already have a Heading of 14 to compensate. Not that CA of 132 is really a world class striker by definition.

Hope that helps with your question about those particular key attribute examples.

[DP]

i'm more worried there's a 6'4 14 year old brazilian in the game!

in FM09 the best regen strikers were mostly tall players. looks like this hasn't been addressed, unless this is a one off fluke.

6'4 14 year old though... sheesh.

[urbanjunkie]

As for FM, the problem I have with it is there are too many players playing in their 30's, teams just dont seem to stop playing them. If regens were changed to allow them to play even longer this problem would get even worse.

Agree with this. In the past, for example, the Chelsea team grows older and older and young players dont appear to come through or signed. Then again, 10 - 14 seasons is the most I ever play so the re-gen issue isn't too much of an issue with me. Although I'll probably play my save game longer if I knew that the game continues in much the same way as it does at the start.

[jayahr]

Like I said above, we do not just look at averages but we also keep an eye on the levels of high attributes and some combinations of key attributes in the soak analysis. And we do still do regular manual testing on the long term games, by going through the soaks by hand to get a better hands on feel of the combination of attributes etc.

I've just had a quick look at newgens from an FM2010 soak in 2022 and out of the top DC's (165+ in CA) the lowest Marking attribute was 12 and that was on two players who were DC/DMC and DC/MC so those two were not solely natural DC's. As for similar top strikers in the same soak, lowest Finishing was a one-off case of 13. I also looked up the highest CA striker to have a finishing <10 (ie. 9) being a 22-year old with a CA of 132, so still time to work on that although he did already have a Heading of 14 to compensate. Not that CA of 132 is really a world class striker by definition.

Hope that helps with your question about those particular key attribute examples.

It certainly makes me more optimistic and grateful for the effort you made in looking this up

[Oxslow]

i'm more worried there's a 6'4 14 year old brazilian in the game!

in FM09 the best regen strikers were mostly tall players. looks like this hasn't been addressed, unless this is a one off fluke.

6'4 14 year old though... sheesh.

I was 6'4 on my 15th birthday and i ended up being 6'5. So it can happen.

[jayahr]

i'm more worried there's a 6'4 14 year old brazilian in the game!

in FM09 the best regen strikers were mostly tall players. looks like this hasn't been addressed, unless this is a one off fluke.

6'4 14 year old though... sheesh.

As far as I'm aware, the height of a player has no effect in the game whatsoever

Only the jumping attribute is important here. So it's just cosmetic and would only be needed to be looked at in depth once that height gets an impact in the game.

[torsportsfan]

Like I said above, we do not just look at averages but we also keep an eye on the levels of high attributes and some combinations of key attributes in the soak analysis. And we do still do regular manual testing on the long term games, by going through the soaks by hand to get a better hands on feel of the combination of attributes etc.

I've just had a quick look at newgens from an FM2010 soak in 2022 and out of the top DC's (165+ in CA) the lowest Marking attribute was 12 and that was on two players who were DC/DMC and DC/MC so those two were not solely natural DC's. As for similar top strikers in the same soak, lowest Finishing was a one-off case of 13. I also looked up the highest CA striker to have a finishing <10 (ie. 9) being a 22-year old with a CA of 132, so still time to work on that although he did already have a Heading of 14 to compensate. Not that CA of 132 is really a world class striker by definition.

Hope that helps with your question about those particular key attribute examples.

Hey Riz, thanks for the replies, do you mind if you can check the same for the mental attributes, I think where most of the problem lies is in the mental attributes(especially in the screenies I posted), stuff like Bravery, agression and determination which are set values upon newgen generation.

Thanks again

[keremkrk]

I bet that Pierre would turn into an amazing player.

He could, if he wasn't terrified of the color green, round objects and men moving faster than walking speed, so I'd take that bet any day.

[Sir Stuart Wilson]

But the fact the absolute stats are so poor is worrying regardles of age of them. A 14 year old can be as brave or determined and aggressive as a seasoned professional and cannot and should not be related to ability or training. There will be no more advance until this sort of thing is sorted as the game will just continue to produce these sort of weirdly attributed players with random mental stats related to the ca of the player on his birth/generation in the game.

Riz any chance you could comment on the above?

I may be wrong but I feel the fact this issue of absolute attributes is overlooked is because it is very difficult if not impossible to remedy this appropriately or effectively with your current system and the parameters within it.

It may just have been genuinely overlooked but having seen this sort of worry posted and never fully answered leads me to have my concerns it is not going to be improved with the current system in operation with the game so will never be until there is a new system is adopted which I doubt is in place for this version of the series so will most probably find the same problems as with previous versions.

The fact that these 'traits' are meant to be absolute yet get linked to the ca a player enters the game with is worrying, that the newgen system will have this fundamental flaw until sorted, and only you or the other guys at SI know whether this is the case and likely to be the case for the foreseeable future.

[dave byrd]

As far as I'm aware, the height of a player has no effect in the game whatsoever

Wrong, wrong. Of course it does!

[depps]

Wrong, wrong. Of course it does!

I actually don't know if you are being serious or joking here! Where have you seen that height has an influence on the game? Everything I've ever seen on here seems to suggest that height has absolutely no influence on the ME....in fact when i first started to come on here I remember actually being quiet shocked and disappointed when i first found this out

[dave byrd]

Where have you seen that height has an influence on the game?

Well for starters when soring goals!

When i've used the corner trick (set the DC best header of the ball to score off corners) it's usually the tallest that scores the most goals. This is proven as when my tallest defender misses matches and his shorter stand in (who has the same jumping and heading stat) just doesn't score anywhere near the same amount of goals despite getting in the same positions and getting the same amount of chances.

This trend has been repeated at all the clubs and leagues i've managed in. The tallest ones simply score more goals than the shorter ones when employing this particular method/exploit....or did i simply imagine it?

[Sir Stuart Wilson]

It has been stated many times that height is purely a cosmetic feature of a player and has no significance in game at all.

[TheMister]

It has been stated many times that height is purely a cosmetic feature of a player and has no significance in game at all.

I'm sure SI have confirmed this too IIRC. It's linked to heading which is the 'real' attribute concerning corners, etc., but height in itself is meaningless.

[dave byrd]

So if i set a 5'4" defender to utilise the corner trick thing (as long as he had a high jumping and heading stat) you think he'd score as many as a 6'5" defender?

[m_fenton]

Also, Determination isn't fixed (to everyone who's been saying it is), its raised by tutoring.

[depps]

So if i set a 5'4" defender to utilise the corner trick thing (as long as he had a high jumping and heading stat) you think he'd score as many as a 6'5" defender?

to be honest ive never used the corner exploit so i cant really comment on that but before i found out that height was only cosmetic i would often find my-self very confused after buying really tall strikers who couldn't win a header if their life depended on it

[TheMister]

So if i set a 5'4" defender to utilise the corner trick thing (as long as he had a high jumping and heading stat) you think he'd score as many as a 6'5" defender?

According to SI, yes he should. I've not bothered checking that, I just took their word for it.

[Sir Stuart Wilson]

So if i set a 5'4" defender to utilise the corner trick thing (as long as he had a high jumping and heading stat) you think he'd score as many as a 6'5" defender?

If all other factors, situations and conditions were the same then yes equally so.

[TheMister]

Post 24.

Height is taken into consideration, but doesn't actually model how likely a player will win an aerial ball - it models whether a player will judge a ball to be aerial or not and then jump for it/or not jump. If he jumps, the jumping and heading attributes will decide if he wins it or not.

[Sir Stuart Wilson]

But still has no effect on jumping and ability to get to the ball, it would still appear purely cosmetic for purposes of the 3d match engine, is what I get from that post.

[TheMister]

But still has no effect on jumping and ability to get to the ball, it would still appear purely cosmetic for purposes of the 3d match engine, is what I get from that post.

Absolutely

[dave byrd]

Wow, must admist i never knew this. I'm very suprised at this. One of the key attributes i look for in a defender is height. Bang goes that policy.

[torsportsfan]

Riz? anyone else on SI care to comment or did we scare them off?

[Riz Remes]

Sorry, unfortunately my "customer service" here on the forums (which isn't really our main job, as we need to focus on actual coding and developing) is not active 24/7 as I do need to eat, sleep and have a life outside of work sometimes

I'm just running some soaks so I can't dig up the data right now but will post some info on those mental attributes the next time I'm going through an analysis. Most of the mental attributes are not linked to the player CA, so they can start high or low and tend to be more random than the attributes linked to CA. From what I do remember about these attributes is that at least the averages in the long term for Bravery, Determination and Aggression for example are pretty much in line with the starting data.

However, with the mental attributes (and other non-CA linked ones) you need to remember that when you are comparing game created newgens to real players in the DB, the real players are hand crafted by researchers and in most cases have high values for all key attributes simply because they have already proven to be quite good overall. However with the game-created newgens over a longer period of time, there will be more variety as not all high potential newgens get the perfect mental attributes for example. The problem is that these kind of real players in the DB can be distorted, as the PA for older players basically means "the best they were at their peak" rather than "the best they could have been" in most cases, simply because the former is much easier to research while the latter is a huge guess. So it is only natural for the newgens in the game to be more varied especially when it comes to high potential newgens.

[whilewolf]

This is a supplementary question for Riz if his still reading and hasn’t been driven off by all the complaining.

When you monitor the occurrence of high value attributes do you analyse which stats the high values are assigned to?

In the initial data base some stats have a much higher instance of high values.

The lower leagues are full of centre backs who are just as brave, strong or as good at competing in the air as their premiership counterparts.

For other attributes there is a much greater correlation between CA and attribute value. It’s very rare to see a really great technical player, dribbler or tackler.

In some of the older versions it was common to see a dearth of big strong centre backs coming through or a number of quality strikers being generated with low finishing.

I was wondering if it wasn’t possible to insure that the relationship between stats values, CA and position could be recreated when creating newgens. E.g If in the initial database 70% of centre backs with a CA of 120 or better have heading of 14 up then 70% of newgen CBs with a PA of 120 or better should have an initial heading stat high enough to develop to 14 of better once their CA reaches 120.

[torsportsfan]

Sorry, unfortunately my "customer service" here on the forums (which isn't really our main job, as we need to focus on actual coding and developing) is not active 24/7 as I do need to eat, sleep and have a life outside of work sometimes

I'm just running some soaks so I can't dig up the data right now but will post some info on those mental attributes the next time I'm going through an analysis. Most of the mental attributes are not linked to the player CA, so they can start high or low and tend to be more random than the attributes linked to CA. From what I do remember about these attributes is that at least the averages in the long term for Bravery, Determination and Aggression for example are pretty much in line with the starting data.

However, with the mental attributes (and other non-CA linked ones) you need to remember that when you are comparing game created newgens to real players in the DB, the real players are hand crafted by researchers and in most cases have high values for all key attributes simply because they have already proven to be quite good overall. However with the game-created newgens over a longer period of time, there will be more variety as not all high potential newgens get the perfect mental attributes for example. The problem is that these kind of real players in the DB can be distorted, as the PA for older players basically means "the best they were at their peak" rather than "the best they could have been" in most cases, simply because the former is much easier to research while the latter is a huge guess. So it is only natural for the newgens in the game to be more varied especially when it comes to high potential newgens.

Thanks Riz! sorry for the bashing but newgens are one thing thats near and dear to our hearts for us career-gamers.

Can't wait to see the results if they verify what you say

[Riz Remes]

When you monitor the occurrence of high value attributes do you analyse which stats the high values are assigned to?

I was wondering if it wasn’t possible to insure that the relationship between stats values, CA and position could be recreated when creating newgens. E.g If in the initial database 70% of centre backs with a CA of 120 or better have heading of 14 up then 70% of newgen CBs with a PA of 120 or better should have an initial heading stat high enough to develop to 14 of better once their CA reaches 120.

Yes, we track the high values attribute by attribute. The attribute weighting system was designed originally to make sure the right attributes are the key ones for certain positions and the same weightings are also used when developing the players in the game. So yes, ideally we'd aim for have a similar attribute distribution amongst different type of players over a long period of time, just like you posted in the above example. However achieving this in 100% detail is indeed not so simple, because we can only generate the players as newgens with their starting attributes and then let the AI managers/coaches (or human managers) help them develop their skills to their full potential. So it's not just a matter of adjusting one value in the game, because of all the different elements involved in the player progress/newgen generation.

[jayahr]

Wrong, wrong. Of course it does!

Well, that would be news to me!

I've seen various official statements on here saying it isn't so.

Your corner to goals ratio alone will not suffice to convince me.

Afaik, jumping is the stat to look for and nothing else. So far this is also reflecting height (so researchers pick higher jumping values for tall players), knowing that the height itself has no influence.

[RT--]

I've just had a quick look at newgens from an FM2010 soak in 2022 and out of the top DC's (165+ in CA) the lowest Marking attribute was 12 and that was on two players who were DC/DMC and DC/MC so those two were not solely natural DC's. As for similar top strikers in the same soak, lowest Finishing was a one-off case of 13. I also looked up the highest CA striker to have a finishing <10 (ie. 9) being a 22-year old with a CA of 132, so still time to work on that although he did already have a Heading of 14 to compensate. Not that CA of 132 is really a world class striker by definition.

This reminds me, Riz - the marking weighting for DMs is crazily low! It's rated below finishing, for goodness sake I can't be the only FM player who somtimes uses defensive midfielders to mark opposition playmakers, etc. Their jumping weighting is very low as well. The long-term effect is a total absence of DMs who can mark or jump.

[Golaxi]

i dont think players mental attributes should rely SOOO much on tutoring just to make them half decent.

[torsportsfan]

I feel very bipolar when it comes to newgens. I see a positive post about them by Riz and then I run another test of the newgen crop and I see something that dissapoints me