Our beloved FM's got some real competition now?

[playmaker]

The question honestly begs, how do you know?

Simple - I read the forum. SI have explained the purpose of the arrows before FM2009 - to move between positions within the formation. While the with and without ball 3x4 grids may have been removed from the tactics some time ago, you could still create a defending and attacking formation with the arrows. It may not have been called with/without ball, but that was essentially what it did, albeit 2 formations and not 24.

The function of other tactical instructions was impeded by moving between the positions prescribed by the arrows, so the match engine came alive by removing the function. CM may suffer the same problem, it may not.

[Pope of Pot, King of Nothi]

By the way, does anyone else think that Championship Managers website is a disgusting mish-mash? Absolutely. Horrible.

I struggle to look at SI's some times, but this just takes the cake. ;/

[ron.e]

Which is why we can't really judge it until the demo.

Look how much our ME has improved since the early views, beta, first pathces until now. Theirs can improve just as much.

When is the demo out then?

[drnight]

I don't understand the 'exploit' complaints. In a single player game, an exploit (should one/any exist) is in your hands. You can chose to use them or not, same as one can chose or not to use things like cheat codes or third party trainers/etc... Exploit only comes into it with something like FML. If a single player 'exploit' exists that allows easy goals or whatever, then if one uses it, one is only shortchanging themselves, if they're measuring against a meter stick of learning and awesomeness. It really doesn't hurt anyone else. Having said all that, I prefer to not use exploits.

I've seen many other games ruined because they took perfectly fine and fun games and started 'balancing' them for pvp (i.e., vs people, ala FML). The only example I think is arguable of a game that's balanced for both single player *and* pvp simultaneously is Starcraft. From the same company, World of Warcraft was a fine game, and then started coding for vs. play to red players. WOW is now a vastly different game than what it started as, solely due to the incessant balancing and tweaking to level classes and game play when humans are using the characters against each other, instead of AI mobs.

So excepting that Blizzard classic of zergs and protoss and marines, I really don't think there are strong examples of games that are fun and balanced for both vs AI and vs PVP play. The two are generally different animals. AI doesn't exist yet that provides the intuition and creativity humans bring to any system. Almost by definition, any game that uses the same engine to play humans against one another is going to be different from one that merely pits the humans against the coding.

Going off many of the 'guru' players who protest against things like WIB/WOB, set piece freedom of design, and Formation Arrows as being unbalancing for FML; it seems the best thing for FM would be to split off from FML. These objections vanish if the only 'victim' is the AI in a single player's game. Of course, I seriously doubt SI will split FML off from FM; they want FM to lead into FML. Monthly fees > single player fun (i.e., one time box purchases). Marketing and profits, it seems obvious. Players who have no interest in versus play lose out again.

[Nik_Dut]

I hope that video stuff from CM will make SI more "fan-friendly"....

At least a little feedback on new feature, comments on suggestions, etc.

[Aim_Less]

I hope that video stuff from CM will make SI more "fan-friendly"....

At least a little feedback on new feature, comments on suggestions, etc.

agree , i think aswell that we should get at least some info about fm2010

[bardock]

Whoah now thats hasty dude!

First we do not know whats SI are doing for FM10. Also are you telling me one ok looking promo takes away quite a few rather poor games whilst FM has had rather good games. CM seem to be just getting into FMs league. But yeah CM looks promising but for the love of god dont say it might become best football manager game! Calling it thus is the same as saying Burnley are better than Man Utd as CM just are getting into Fms league

Hahahaha you're probably right but if they get most things right and FM ending up releasing a better looking game with basically the same features + the tactics wizard then I'm afraid that CM do have a very good chance.

Their only problem would be if they decided to concentrate too much on the frills and end up with a crap transfer system, player interaction, and other things like that. God knows FM is limited in this respect too only they have a better base to build on.

All in all though it's a good thing. Even if the next FM isn't a big improvement over this one, it'd be interesting to see FM 11.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Just to clarify I've played all versions since the first so I am familiar with the various changes over the years.

wibble/wobble has been covered in numerous threads so I don't want to go into detail but basically it gives players two positions on the pitch which doesn't happen in real life.

In real life players have one general position with different responsibilities depending on what is going on around them.

The biggest problem as I see it is that users associated wibble/wobble with tactical diagrams that managers draw in changing rooms but unfortunately thats not how it worked.

CM's tactic board looks good having freedom of position, runs and feeds but two positions is a big fault in my eyes.

The strength / weakness of wibble wobble was all about perception, you describe it your way, I saw it as wibble is a players most advanced optimum position, wobble is the most defensive, this again was impacted upon by att / def / norm mentality, and as such was excellent. Again we were never really told how it worked like many other SI game tactical controls, anyway enough about wibble wobble but I still like it and so do many others.

[Cougar2010]

The strength / weakness of wibble wobble was all about perception, you describe it your way, I saw it as wibble is a players most advanced optimum position, wobble is the most defensive, this again was impacted upon by att / def / norm mentality, and as such was excellent. Again we were never really told how it worked like many other SI game tactical controls, anyway enough about wibble wobble but I still like it and so do many others.

The big problem is what happens between the wibble and the wobble.

Previously in FM as soon as a change of possession occurred the player would ignore his match orders and run straight for his new position, once reached he would revert back to his match orders.

[bigdunk]

I don't understand the 'exploit' complaints. In a single player game, an exploit (should one/any exist) is in your hands. You can chose to use them or not, same as one can chose or not to use things like cheat codes or third party trainers/etc... Exploit only comes into it with something like FML. If a single player 'exploit' exists that allows easy goals or whatever, then if one uses it, one is only shortchanging themselves, if they're measuring against a meter stick of learning and awesomeness. It really doesn't hurt anyone else. Having said all that, I prefer to not use exploits.

It depends how easy the exploits are to find. People are finding the corner cheat in FM without trying, and suddenly finding that their centre backs are scoring 20+ a season. I would imagine that as the number of possible set piece routines multiplies, the chances of finding (even accidentally) an exploit get much higher. And you say people are only shortchanging themselves, but at what point does a good freekick routine suddenly become an exploit? When you score 5 goals in a season from it? 10 goals? 20 goals?

[PhroX]

But removing wibble/wobble and arrows aren't just about fixing "exploits", they're about making FM into a more realistic simulation of football. Both those "features" allowed unrealistic things to occur, so they were rightly removed...

[baker.simon]

Your initial point being what? BGS are heavy-hitters in the realms of 3D modelling?

Debate is only ever interesting when it doesn't consist of pish.

Its not really pish, all i said was i fully expect the 3-d to be better in the future!

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

The big problem is what happens between the wibble and the wobble.

Previously in FM as soon as a change of possession occurred the player would ignore his match orders and run straight for his new position, once reached he would revert back to his match orders.

"FM"? Do you mean CM0102 (the last Wi Wo ME?), or are you referring to the non wibble/wobble FM ME?

Surely that is SI's pi$$ poor interpretation & implementation of wibble wobble latterly (bearing in mind that it was their "good idea" to start with)- not a fault with the ldea?. Even now players run away from the ball so absence of wibble wobble made no difference to that anyway. Wi-Wo should purely be a player "mentality" tool giving a players range of positions in offensive - defensive context and "Mentality" would adjust / work within that framework, or maybe the answer is 3 settings:

Team Wibble - player x on the ball

Team Wibble - player x off the ball

Team Wobble - (player x off the ball, naturally!)

I do respect our debate although our ideas seem to be poles apart on Wi Wo. (thumbs up)

...but you are right, we are getting too deeply into this for the context of this thread.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

But removing wibble/wobble and arrows aren't just about fixing "exploits", they're about making FM into a more realistic simulation of football. Both those "features" allowed unrealistic things to occur, so they were rightly removed...

Im not arguing that the wibble wobble implementation didnt cause daft football in FM development (although it is SI's job to make such things work, not shelve them for unpopular alternative methods) - but it is a fact that a manager indicating to a player to drop back when his team loses the ball is likely to draw on a chalkboard indicating where the player drops back to, he would not says "now fella, reduce your mentality by 6 and etc etc.."

[Morgie93]

That video does look make CM look really good.

[Cockney Hammer]

Why do they bring it out so late?

[Gooner82]

Why do they bring it out so late?

Because they wanted extra time to develop the game

[rsk360]

Because they wanted extra time to develop the game

to make it perfect and to stick a finger to SI and shouting 'suck on that'

[Gooner82]

Why do they bring it out so late?

to make it perfect and to stick a finger to SI and shouting 'suck on that'

Awsome post!

And I was told the people on this forum moaned at everything:D

[rsk360]

Awsome post!

And I was told the people on this forum moaned at everything:D

lol its true though. fm did not match my initial expectations but its still good, but tbh from what i've seen cm looks better, but we'll see sooner or later

[Forkoid]

I'm gonna give this game a chance as well...

And the reason is: Pro Evo vs FIFA 09.

For years I've played Pro Evo and refused to play FIFA games (just as I've played the FM series even way back when it was CM!!!) and recently I played a friends copy of FIFA and I was hooked. I was surprised that a game could catch up it's established rival and overtake it. And all it took was some new thinking.

[leedsfan88]

Could we be seeing a shift in power back to CM?

[rsk360]

I'm gonna give this game a chance as well...

And the reason is: Pro Evo vs FIFA 09.

For years I've played Pro Evo and refused to play FIFA games (just as I've played the FM series even way back when it was CM!!!) and recently I played a friends copy of FIFA and I was hooked. I was surprised that a game could catch up it's established rival and overtake it. And all it took was some new thinking.

fifa was ALWAYS better than pro, ever since fifa06

[Forkoid]

Could we be seeing a shift in power back to CM?

The proof of the pudding will only be in the eating...

You will get absolutely no idea of a games immersion factor, playability or enjoyment factor by watch two videos of a guy explaining the game...

Especially from a guy who's obviously biased.

Despite all that, like i said above, I will be checking it out and MAKING MY OWN MIND UP ABOUT IT.

fifa was ALWAYS better than pro, ever since fifa06

I'm not arguing that point with you mate... My point is, I gave the rival a chance and was pleasantly surprised.

[kussel]

man... the scouting looks incredible!

[rsk360]

I'm not arguing that point with you mate... My point is, I gave the rival a chance and was pleasantly surprised.

WHAT R U DUMB BRUV??

nah i'm joking fair doos

[cynet]

i disagree here, a patch for fm was released on the day the game came out not weeks after, fm09 is a brilliant game and possibly the game i have played most ever,the fact that i have played this game for about 3 hours most days since the day of release proves it is good.

i dont understand where the perception that cm is going to be bug free and not full of them like fm has come from, nobody has said this directly but it comes across in a lot of posts but yet for all we know it could have more problems than fm even after release.

Yes there was a patch released on the day but the game was still unplayable as far as im concerned and was not until the jan patch was released it made a difference.

I dont know if CM09 will be better or bug free but there needs to be a massive improvement when it comes to the FM title as it has grinded to a halt from the scouting to the training system and as for the repetitive press Q @ A sessions it's made the game a yawn.

The 3d engine is shabby and needs working on and lets not forget the tactics which to me is now bogged standard and does not reflect on real football tactics.

Things need to be improved by a massive scale before i purchase another retail version and will stick with FML where they are improving and making strides.

[rsk360]

Yes there was a patch released on the day but the game was still unplayable as far as im concerned and was not until the jan patch was released it made a difference.

I dont know if CM09 will be better or bug free but there needs to be a massive improvement when it comes to the FM title as it has grinded to a halt from the scouting to the training system and as for the repetitive press Q @ A sessions it's made the game a yawn.

The 3d engine is shabby and needs working on and lets not forget the tactics which to me is now bogged standard and does not reflect on real football tactics.

Things need to be improved by a massive scale before i purchase another retail version and will stick with FML where they are improving and making strides.

its been put back something like 6 months

it best be bug-free

[Gooner82]

its been put back something like 6 months

it best be bug-free

CM09 will come out in Oct I personly think.

It will start then for next season and maybe it will be CM10

[Forkoid]

WHAT R U DUMB BRUV??

nah i'm joking fair doos

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[jld123]

The scouting seems totally geared to a top-flight club. Would Accrington really scout anywhere outside England? I'd be surprised if any BSN teams scouted outside the north of the country. In my opinion it would be better if it was that system but with regions of the UK instead of countries.

[Schotsmannetje]

SI have to be careful. Remember what happened to Pro Evolution Soccer: They were the best for years, because their game was the most realistic. Then they got lazy and were taken over by FIFA in 2008.

Excellent example of poor Research and Development.

I hope SI are better then Konami in that respect, and I genuinely think they are.

[rsk360]

si have to be careful. Remember what happened to pro evolution soccer: They were the best for years, because their game was the most realistic. Then they got lazy and were taken over by fifa in 2008.

Excellent example of poor research and development.

I hope si are better then konami in that respect, and i genuinely think they are.

2006* :)

[Schotsmannetje]

Oh come on, 2007

[Cougar2010]

Could we be seeing a shift in power back to CM?

Only fair to point out that CM in its current guise never had the power so its more a case of a new game thats been around for a few years challenging the market leader.

[Cougar2010]

its been put back something like 6 months

it best be bug-free

Absolutely no chance of that happening and BGS would probably even admit to that.

Whatever PC game you purchase now you should expect bugs and you should expect patches to fix the more serious ones.

SI in this respect do a good job but personally I always plan to not play FM until after Xmas usually once there have been at least two patches released.

[Schotsmannetje]

Mind you, even console games have patches nowadays Cougar.

Is it fair to say that the ability to connect your console to the internet has made console game developers complacent?

SNES games were 99% out of the time 100% bug free.

[SCIAG]

it gives players two positions on the pitch which doesn't happen in real life.

Yes it does! A lot of teams have wingers who become wide strikers when the team is in possession. My manager when I was a kid used to literally say "when we get the ball, you are strikers". There are a plenty of examples of wibble wobble/ the arrows being used in real life.

[playmaker]

I don't understand the 'exploit' complaints. In a single player game, an exploit (should one/any exist) is in your hands. You can chose to use them or not, same as one can chose or not to use things like cheat codes or third party trainers/etc... Exploit only comes into it with something like FML. If a single player 'exploit' exists that allows easy goals or whatever, then if one uses it, one is only shortchanging themselves, if they're measuring against a meter stick of learning and awesomeness. It really doesn't hurt anyone else. Having said all that, I prefer to not use exploits...

Personally I have nothing against the idea that there might be a killer tactic or two - we all need a bit of help sometimes and it does make the game more accessible to those with less tactical understanding or just as likely, less time. I play most games on the easiest level these days because I don't have the time to get good and just want to make some progress - I don't care about the challenge any more!

The point is merely cautionary - FM's match engine AI improved by removing exploits (whether that's down to previous poor implementation is another debate altogether), therefore it's not unreasonable to think a match engine that has lagged behind for several years may have some problems with new features. The features are good on paper, but we've been here before with both games. If the pluses outweigh the minuses, then it will be worth doing - and that is something that Eidos have yet to manage, however encouraging the signs are this time round.

As it happens, I think SI are too cautious about these matters and Eidos are too gung-ho. A middle ground would be good. Preventing exploits is not the be all and end all of realism or enjoyment.

...Going off many of the 'guru' players who protest against things like WIB/WOB, set piece freedom of design, and Formation Arrows as being unbalancing for FML; it seems the best thing for FM would be to split off from FML. These objections vanish if the only 'victim' is the AI in a single player's game. Of course, I seriously doubt SI will split FML off from FM; they want FM to lead into FML. Monthly fees > single player fun (i.e., one time box purchases). Marketing and profits, it seems obvious. Players who have no interest in versus play lose out again.

FM2009, out sells every other PC game in the UK, as have it's predecessors. SI would have to be morons of epic proportions to compromise their main source of income.

Using the same match engine in both games is just common sense. If they split off, you need twice the development and get half the feedback. And for very little, if any gain.

[Cougar2010]

Mind you, even console games have patches nowadays Cougar.

Is it fair to say that the ability to connect your console to the internet has made console game developers complacent?

Indeed they do but I'm not sure its made them more complacent.

Personally I can't see a programmer doing their part thinking "ah well whatever I get wrong I'll fix with a patch"

Maybe more a case of time constraints it allowing the developers a choice of rushing to fix bugs pre-release or taking more time and using a patch.

SNES games were 99% out of the time 100% bug free.

I don't believe that for a second

As consumers we are much more aware these days and the internet has allowed us a wider access to other like minded people with which to discuss the products with.

Personally I would say someone buying FM09 today who hadn't heard of it before and didn't discuss the game with anyone else or use the internet wouldn't notice 90% of the bugs that get listed on here.

[Cougar2010]

Yes it does! A lot of teams have wingers who become wide strikers when the team is in possession. My manager when I was a kid used to literally say "when we get the ball, you are strikers". There are a plenty of examples of wibble wobble/ the arrows being used in real life.

and the circle continues

Its all in the phrase and what people perceive.

In your example the players don't have two positions, they have one position and are given a general area of the pitch to play in. When their team wins the ball they don't charge forward ignoring everything around them they look for space, make themselves available for a pass and try to get into that advanced position as the attack develops and the team moves forward.

[backpackant]

Just watched this - to take advantage of every new feature, each season is going to take about a month to play! I do like some of those features and guess I'll give the demo a try, but for anyone thought FM09 was time consuming and TOO in-depth, they're gonna hate CM09.

[Äktsjon Männ]

and the circle continues

Its all in the phrase and what people perceive.

In your example the players don't have two positions, they have one position and are given a general area of the pitch to play in. When their team wins the ball they don't charge forward ignoring everything around them they look for space, make themselves available for a pass and try to get into that advanced position as the attack develops and the team moves forward.

It's still two positions. the difference is in implementation. Who says players in FM have to ignore everything going forward when wibble wobble is used? It's just how it used to be programmed. Why couldn't it be programmed better? There's absolutely nothing wrong with the concept of on/off the ball positioning.

[SCIAG]

and the circle continues

Its all in the phrase and what people perceive.

In your example the players don't have two positions, they have one position and are given a general area of the pitch to play in. When their team wins the ball they don't charge forward ignoring everything around them they look for space, make themselves available for a pass and try to get into that advanced position as the attack develops and the team moves forward.

Actually, yes, I have very much seen that in real life. I love Jimmy Kebe

At Reading, we have a winger called Jimmy Kebe. He has very little ball control, and even less leg control. If he takes more than about ten strides with the ball, he's liable to trip himself up. Therefore, as soon as we win the ball, he legs it forwards to get in line with the two strikers. He can then take the ball past the player in one touch, and will gain the most ground possible in the shortest time possible.

I'm also going to go back to my old park team. Similarly, the wingers would be under instructions to act as wide strikers as soon as we got the ball. We'd generally give the ball to the best player on the team (as you do), who whould then either surge forwards or hit a long pass, quarter back style, that the wingers would be in just the right place to control.

[wwfan]

The issue with wibble wobble, and indeed, the arrows, is not totally the 'two positions' element, although that has a lot to do with it, but how they made players movement robotic. With either tool, the players wold ignore where the ball was on the pitch and rush blindly to their set position. The two positions they were asked to play thus overrode eveything else that was happening on the pitch, which is a totally illogical state of affairs. Likewise, clever manipulation of the system allowed the user to completely undermine the AI by producing patterns it couldn't deal with.

To understand why they were removed we need to unpack this further. Firstly, we need to consider the difference between drawing on a chalkboard and players actual interpretations of instructions. If, in reality, a player just shuttled between two fixed points as determined by his manger and paid little or no attention to the rest of the game, the team would get hammered by the more dynamic, ball-related movement of the opposition. In FM, however, this movement was used to win matches by moving players around in a pattern the AI couldn't read. There is a big gap between using wibble wobble as an indication of positions and a determiner of positions.

Arrows did the same thing and, from FM06 onwards, users were having to devise crazier and crazier patterns to 'break' the AI. Football simply doesn't work in the manner the control mechanisms were enforcing. The AI's football was fine, because it stayed within certain parameters, but many users' tactics were crazy and would never work in real life. Although the recognition of this factor came through exposure to FML, its transmission into FM has made the ME more logical and more robust. What it has also achieved is to make explict just how much trouble people have understanding the slider system. Because you can't use wibble wobble or arrow positioning to undermine the AI (i.e. do stuff it can't read and thus can't defend) you need to understand the slider system and tactical design holisitically in order to succeed. This has lead to SI's promise that they will replace the slider system with a new tactical interface for FM2010.

This does not mean the slider system will be removed (as its mechanics underlie the ME), and those who still feel comfortable using it can do so, but it does mean tactics will be far easier to understand. Matches will also be far more dynamic. It will be easy to change things in a tactic, or change tactics, and you'll know what you are trying to do. Things should also be a lot more fun.

The 'why worry about exploits' argument is one that fails to understand what SI are trying to do. In real life football, there is no super-tactic, no method of scoring 35 goals from a corner, no possibility of an MC running half the length of the pitch before scoring an unmarked goal 40+ times a season. When such things are discovered, it highlights a weakness in the ME that must be fixed for it to move a step closer to simulated reality. the FML/FM player v player/player v AI has nothing to do with it. All FML did was make new weaknesses explicit.

The only major problem with FM09 is the slider system. That it hadn't been realised before is because people patched things up with arrows and thus could design OK tactics without really understanding the system as a whole. NB: this doesn't mean I don't think the ME is flawed, just nowhere near as horrible as many would suggest. In response, SI have promised development focus on tactics for FM2010. Personally, that excites me a lot more than the option of designing 40 plus set piece routines each with 5 stages each involving the multiple shifting of players, which a) will get tired very quickly and b) will be an exploit-fest.

[Gooner82]

The issue with wibble wobble, and indeed, the arrows, is not totally the 'two positions' element, although that has a lot to do with it, but how they made players movement robotic. With either tool, the players wold ignore where the ball was on the pitch and rush blindly to their set position. The two positions they were asked to play thus overrode eveything else that was happening on the pitch, which is a totally illogical state of affairs. Likewise, clever manipulation of the system allowed the user to completely undermine the AI by producing patterns it couldn't deal with.

To understand why they were removed we need to unpack this further. Firstly, we need to consider the difference between drawing on a chalkboard and players actual interpretations of instructions. If, in reality, a player just shuttled between two fixed points as determined by his manger and paid little or no attention to the rest of the game, the team would get hammered by the more dynamic, ball-related movement of the opposition. In FM, however, this movement was used to win matches by moving players around in a pattern the AI couldn't read. There is a big gap between using wibble wobble as an indication of positions and a determiner of positions.

Arrows did the same thing and, from FM06 onwards, users were having to devise crazier and crazier patterns to 'break' the AI. Football simply doesn't work in the manner the control mechanisms were enforcing. The AI's football was fine, because it stayed within certain parameters, but many users' tactics were crazy and would never work in real life. Although the recognition of this factor came through exposure to FML, its transmission into FM has made the ME more logical and more robust. What it has also achieved is to make explict just how much trouble people have understanding the slider system. Because you can't use wibble wobble or arrow positioning to undermine the AI (i.e. do stuff it can't read and thus can't defend) you need to understand the slider system and tactical design holisitically in order to succeed. This has lead to SI's promise that they will replace the slider system with a new tactical interface for FM2010.

This does not mean the slider system will be removed (as its mechanics underlie the ME), and those who still feel comfortable using it can do so, but it does mean tactics will be far easier to understand. Matches will also be far more dynamic. It will be easy to change things in a tactic, or change tactics, and you'll know what you are trying to do. Things should also be a lot more fun.

The 'why worry about exploits' argument is one that fails to understand what SI are trying to do. In real life football, there is no super-tactic, no method of scoring 35 goals from a corner, no possibility of an MC running half the length of the pitch before scoring an unmarked goal 40+ times a season. When such things are discovered, it highlights a weakness in the ME that must be fixed for it to move a step closer to simulated reality. the FML/FM player v player/player v AI has nothing to do with it. All FML did was make new weaknesses explicit.

The only major problem with FM09 is the slider system. That it hadn't been realised before is because people patched things up with arrows and thus could design OK tactics without really understanding the system as a whole. NB: this doesn't mean I don't think the ME is flawed, just nowhere near as horrible as many would suggest. In response, SI have promised development focus on tactics for FM2010. Personally, that excites me a lot more than the option of designing 40 plus set piece routines each with 5 stages each involving the multiple shifting of players, which a) will get tired very quickly and b) will be an exploit-fest.

Why would a 40 plus set piece routine get boring? I have always been a CM fan all the way back to 1993. Last November I decided that after all my friends kept going on about FM I downloaded the FM demo. CM08 was a little boring at this point and thought what the hell I will try FM. It was pants! I had a go on FM 07 at a friends house and why anyone would want to pay for an updated game was beyond.

CM have finally listened to their fans and have made something new for everyone to enjoy. I dont understand why a lot of folks on here would rather be little the work and effort BGS have put into this game. Why cant we all try and enjoy ALL football sims on the market and make our own mind up when they are released? Why slag off a someone who is only trying to raise the bar for everyone?

I hope SI pull their fingers out and make a good game next time so CM will have to hit a new level next year. But for now lets all wait and see just what it is BGS are about to unleesh:thup:

[3rd season]

When is Championship Manager 09 released if anoyone knows?

[wwfan]

Why would a 40 plus set piece routine get boring? I have always been a CM fan all the way back to 1993. Last November I decided that after all my friends kept going on about FM I downloaded the FM demo. CM08 was a little boring at this point and thought what the hell I will try FM. It was pants! I had a go on FM 07 at a friends house and why anyone would want to pay for an updated game was beyond.

CM have finally listened to their fans and have made something new for everyone to enjoy. I dont understand why a lot of folks on here would rather be little the work and effort BGS have put into this game. Why cant we all try and enjoy ALL football sims on the market and make our own mind up when they are released? Why slag off a someone who is only trying to raise the bar for everyone?

I hope SI pull their fingers out and make a good game next time so CM will have to hit a new level next year. But for now lets all wait and see just what it is BGS are about to unleesh:thup:

I'm not slagging anything off. I'm casting doubt on their being able to make it work. I'll give few some reasons.

1: The example on the video is nothing like any set piece I've ever seen. I'd suggest a good 90% of set pieces are either direct shots, crosses or taps to the side for a shot. This editor is going to encourage a plethora of set piece moves, which I believe will detract from realism.

2: In relation to the above, the sheer number of variables that such a system will create is likely to make the AI defence a total farce.

3: Given the general consensus BSG have fallen a long way behind in ME development since the SI/Eidos split, I think it is a big ask for them to pull something so ambitious off.

They may pull it off and design an ME and set piece creator that immerses the user in a realistic game of football, but given the technical difficulties of the project and their limited experience, I think it is a big ask. However, if they do succeed, it will be a major step forward and a large feather in their cap.

[Aim_Less]

I want FM2010 to have a 3D like that because it looks just like a real match , areas were FM2009 fail

BGS had 2 years to make it i have high hopes for it

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

The issue with wibble wobble, and indeed, the arrows, is not totally the 'two positions' element, although that has a lot to do with it, but how they made players movement robotic. With either tool, the players wold ignore where the ball was on the pitch and rush blindly to their set position. The two positions they were asked to play thus overrode eveything else that was happening on the pitch, which is a totally illogical state of affairs. Likewise, clever manipulation of the system allowed the user to completely undermine the AI by producing patterns it couldn't deal with.

To understand why they were removed we need to unpack this further. Firstly, we need to consider the difference between drawing on a chalkboard and players actual interpretations of instructions. If, in reality, a player just shuttled between two fixed points as determined by his manger and paid little or no attention to the rest of the game, the team would get hammered by the more dynamic, ball-related movement of the opposition. In FM, however, this movement was used to win matches by moving players around in a pattern the AI couldn't read. There is a big gap between using wibble wobble as an indication of positions and a determiner of positions.

Arrows did the same thing and, from FM06 onwards, users were having to devise crazier and crazier patterns to 'break' the AI. Football simply doesn't work in the manner the control mechanisms were enforcing. The AI's football was fine, because it stayed within certain parameters, but many users' tactics were crazy and would never work in real life. Although the recognition of this factor came through exposure to FML, its transmission into FM has made the ME more logical and more robust. What it has also achieved is to make explict just how much trouble people have understanding the slider system. Because you can't use wibble wobble or arrow positioning to undermine the AI (i.e. do stuff it can't read and thus can't defend) you need to understand the slider system and tactical design holisitically in order to succeed. This has lead to SI's promise that they will replace the slider system with a new tactical interface for FM2010.

This does not mean the slider system will be removed (as its mechanics underlie the ME), and those who still feel comfortable using it can do so, but it does mean tactics will be far easier to understand. Matches will also be far more dynamic. It will be easy to change things in a tactic, or change tactics, and you'll know what you are trying to do. Things should also be a lot more fun.

The 'why worry about exploits' argument is one that fails to understand what SI are trying to do. In real life football, there is no super-tactic, no method of scoring 35 goals from a corner, no possibility of an MC running half the length of the pitch before scoring an unmarked goal 40+ times a season. When such things are discovered, it highlights a weakness in the ME that must be fixed for it to move a step closer to simulated reality. the FML/FM player v player/player v AI has nothing to do with it. All FML did was make new weaknesses explicit.

The only major problem with FM09 is the slider system. That it hadn't been realised before is because people patched things up with arrows and thus could design OK tactics without really understanding the system as a whole. NB: this doesn't mean I don't think the ME is flawed, just nowhere near as horrible as many would suggest. In response, SI have promised development focus on tactics for FM2010. Personally, that excites me a lot more than the option of designing 40 plus set piece routines each with 5 stages each involving the multiple shifting of players, which a) will get tired very quickly and b) will be an exploit-fest.

wwfan, for me your Post raises the following questions

Surely wibble wobble's "attacking position - defensive position" was logical?, to ignore the ball or other players within that positional framework is a fault of the player's AI and I would have hoped SI would have mastered that issue by now. It is not good enough to say "the players ignore the ball and rush blindly..!", that is in essence the same as a player with FM's "attacking mentality"(say notch 16 - 18) ignoring the ball if it is being played away from him and running aimlessly forward, which actually may not be an issue that SI have resolved judging by some opinions (in the defensive context I have had defenders run from a free ball to hold their defensive position using your own tactics for T&TT which is just as bad - not your fault, or your tactics, it is an ME issue, the sort wibble wobble was alledged to bring to the table hence it not being allowed to "darken FM's door"!.

The issue of gamers trying to break the ME rather than play the game well is sad but if I just lost my 4th match in a row and the board were getting jumpy I too would look to break the ME I suspect, especially if I supected a "re-ranking" or "bookies rank outsiders playing like Brazil" issue.

I appreciate you have extra knowledge of the new tactical interface for FM which does sound exciting but CM seem to have really listened to FM Posters (Did their market research for CM09 consist of reading these FM forums?, I wonder), lets see if they can now deliver! I for one hope they can.