A little experiment

I took control of a less than mediocre team, San Marino in Italy. Then I cheated my way up to Serie A, eventually winning all the leagues and cups possible from serie C, finished top three in Serie A. Never once signed a reputable player. Only unnamed Italian. Because of the cheating, eventually my players gained high match ratings, high amount of goals and assists. Now, I have a question for you. How many of those Italians get picked up for Italian International sides? This should not happened in FM any more. PA is broken. At very least it is not enough.

None of them got called up? You got a screenshot of some players?

I'm not sure what your experiment set out to investigate, the methods used or the conclusion, I've posted a useful link for you.

http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/Write_Report/Write_Report.html

I'm not reporting anything. Just posting my experiment. Wondering if anyone else have too much time to do the same and the result will differ. Sorry if I hurted you in anyway. Maybe you have more right to post in here and have more of the game than me. Btw, @brawla123 guessed right. None italian got called up. Some polish, colombian got called up though.

Out of interest, how exactly did you "cheat"?

save, load, instant result, repeat, profit...

How does this prove that PA is broken?

PA in your squad screen only shows what their PA is against your own players, not the entire database of the game. And it only represents what your staff think of their PA in comparison to other players in the squad.

The fact that none of them got called up proves that the system isn't broke. They AI isn't calling up players that don't deserve to be in the squad.

The AI is looking for players with higher CAs - and are dismissing your players.

And it's not the first time the Italian league has been disgraced by cheating

This should not happened in FM any more. PA is broken. At very least it is not enough.

What should not happen?

I don't know if it's just me, but I have not understood at all what you are trying to prove here?

Maybe explain yourself abit more and clearly and we might understand what you're going on about.

What has you getting promoted and your players not being called up for internationals got to do with PA?

I think he's trying to explain CA counts for everything.

In real life players like Ricky Lambert get called into international squads due to good form.

All his players are in good form, yet nobody gets called up because AI looks for CA instead of form, which can be unrealistic.

Herrera never gets called up for Spain on mine either.

I think he's trying to explain CA counts for everything.

Don't know if that is still the case, but that's not all there is to it. On previous releases I ran funny little experiments such as editing Messi into third and fourth tiers where he subsequently was running a little amok, which was fun to see. However, after a couple months time he wasn't called up for national duty anymore. Meaning that it's not merely CA, but also reputation, and probably a couple other things.

However, out of a running game such would never happen. That is Messi in his prime signing to Luton Town. Or, I don't know what the cheating above was exactly, getting presumably mediocre players perform above all their expectations. They are seen by the AI national managers for what they are, if you will, mediocre players being helped by a manager that pushes his Cheatelorean up to 88 Miles an hour to move back into save game time - and to run matches over and over and over again until they're finally won (if that was the cheating). Which is fine by me.

I've had players with low/mid CA get called up by national teams, some big national teams too, when they've done very well at club level. I remember being surprised a few times.

Any time I've taken over an international team I notice there's a barrage of players not good enough, and there's other players that are good enough not even in the setup.

I take out all the bad players and insert the better players. Then the media comes out with "He's making a mockery of the international team", and "Player B playing in 2nd league has been left out in the cold again!" or "Player C has been left out in the cold again!", when in reality he hasn't played for his club for six months and his form is at 5.8.

In essence, I experience international setups to have a lot of players who shouldn't be there, there; and players that should be there are not.

They are seen by the AI national managers for what they are, if you will, mediocre players being helped by a manager that pushes his Cheatelorean up to 88 Miles an hour to move back into save game time - and to run matches over and over and over again until they're finally won (if that was the cheating). Which is fine by me.

How can the AI manager knew I was cheating?

I'm sorry, maybe I was not very clear with "broken". What I meant, the int'l manager decision on calling players based heavily on PA, and that should need a little fixing. All that matters in the cheated save is a group of constantly high in form players not called up to home nation int'l side. It is not very realistic.

What you've done is not very realistic.

What you've done is not very realistic.

I agree.

But nevertheless, the game world should see them as a group of amazing players at a club, constantly performing. Don't you agree?

So you are basically asking a game to make calculations for a scenario that shouldn't exist in the first place.

I think you succeeded in breaking the game, not proving anything.

Just because a bunch of players perform well in a team doesn't mean they are individually brilliant, and that's what Int Managers look for in calling up players.

The Int Managers look for players who are at their peak and playing well.

When comparing your players to other players in the game, your players appear inferior when compared side by side other international players.

You're right to some degree, that an average player will be called up to the International Team based on form - so if you think you have a point raise it in the bugs forum.

IMO, it's not a bug, per se. But merely the calculation used to international calling is not good enough (for some times now).

Mind you that the argument of "scenario that shouldn't exist" is not fit in place here, as I cheated without altering any database, just basic save and load until win/draw. And constantly performing from serie C to A surely meant something. Chelsea was a mediocre team once in Gullit's era. So, in the game world, my players should not merely inferior fringe anymore, but stars, if not superstars.

This has been one of my bugbears for a long time now. Had players scoring 40+ goals in the premier league but not a sniff of an England call up where as a goalless "England regular" gets called up constantly. Form needs to have more of an emphasis when it comes to International call ups.

What you are actually testing out are severe extremes that would never happen in real life, so I have no problem with the end result.

I agree.

But nevertheless, the game world should see them as a group of amazing players at a club, constantly performing. Don't you agree?

I don't agree, and i endorse el presidente's point above. When SI do their sink tests they do not set up and account for exploiting, cheating, unrealistic scenarios and neither should they.

And I don't think you're telling the whole story. It doesn't matter how many times you reload and replay matches, San Marino are not going to rise to the top of the league unless you've fiddled with stuff in the editor like increasing reputations or more likely giving your players boosted CAs and PAs.

To be honest, I cheat too, but I don't come on here blaming SI for breaking the game!

I finished top in serie C and B. 3rd in A. No messing with editor. Only save, load, instant result; which at some point in "the game" POV shouldn't called cheating.

IRL, if Soton finished top 3 and go to UCL for 2 years straight, I wonder will any of their players got called for three lions?

It's not that extreme. Fulham did it. Chievo did it. Way back then, Parma did it. Suggesting that a club is no way going top is overstatement, as if it is hardcoded in the game. I've seen posts people claiming taking clubs like Luton to top of the world.

To make my point clear again, I don't blame SI. Where did you get the idea I'm blaming? Just suggesting if form could take bigger part in international callup.

And really not nice jump to conclusion that I use editor. But that's your opinion and arguing other way serve no point if you have thought that way.

And I don't think you're telling the whole story. It doesn't matter how many times you reload and replay matches, San Marino are not going to rise to the top of the league unless you've fiddled with stuff in the editor like increasing reputations or more likely giving your players boosted CAs and PAs.

What he's described is not only possible without using the editor, but inevitable - if you're willing to save and reload enough times, you can take any team to the top. If San Marino have a 1% chance of winning a particularly one-sided game, then reloading 100 times will probably be enough to see a victory. Do that for every game and you'll get them up the league.

But yeah, obviously Nik_Dut's 'point' is inane and irrelevant - SI cannot be expected to account for people deliberately dragging the game further away from reality and then complaining that it isn't realistic.

But yeah, obviously Nik_Dut's 'point' is inane and irrelevant - SI cannot be expected to account for people deliberately dragging the game further away from reality and then complaining that it isn't realistic.

Exactly.

What he's described is not only possible without using the editor, but inevitable - if you're willing to save and reload enough times, you can take any team to the top. If San Marino have a 1% chance of winning a particularly one-sided game, then reloading 100 times will probably be enough to see a victory. Do that for every game and you'll get them up the league.

Yeah but there's possible in a technical sense (which you're referring to I believe, and you're right) and possible in a...sense kind of sense. Yes if you reload a match 100 times, at least one of those times will be a win. But if it has to be 100 times for every match, one season would take you weeks to get right. The three or four it would take to get to Serie A...well, a lot longer. Could he have done it with nothing else? Yes, but I still doubt it, and I actually hope for his sake that he didn't. What a ridiculous waste of time.

But yeah, obviously Nik_Dut's 'point' is inane and irrelevant - SI cannot be expected to account for people deliberately dragging the game further away from reality and then complaining that it isn't realistic.

And yes, this is 100% true.

^ Right, that's what I was trying to say.

And people who take non-league clubs to the heights in FM don't go through their careers buying useless players; they improve their squads as the finances and reputation permit.

Whilst I agree that SI should not have to account for repeated reloads, I do agree that there should be a form gauge of sorts that takes into consideration season form and current form.

My thoughts on this are that form starts from the last "Manual" save, or from the last reloaded point of the game, as well as the seasonal average ratings.

This way, if you have players in good seasonal form and then they play well over a period (say the last 10 games), and it is not via reloading until they perform well, they deserve to be placed into consideration for the national team. If they play well from reloads, their "form" will be blank and thus it will solely use the current method of selection.

This way, seasonal form plays a part, PA plays a part and current form plays a part, though current form is unique to the loaded session.

To show this, here is an example:

Championship player signs for Man City

Man City, start said player and, due to the team form, he plays well over a season, averaging 7.2 over 26 league games

after 15 matches without reloading in his second season, he has an average of 7.33 with his lowest being a 7

Due to his previous season form, plus his "current form" of 7.33 since the last reloaded session, he gets called up

Example from the alternate perspective:

Championship player signs for Man City

Man City, start said player and, due to the team form, he plays well over a season, averaging 7.2 over 26 league games

Player reloads the save file after losing to last place 7 games in and then reloads after losing to 2nd 11 games in to the 15 matches mentioned above

players "current form" is now judged over the last 4 games since the last reload at a rating of 7.12

The game decides that he has not played enough matches for his "current form" to be relevant and thus, the selection is made based on CA / PA

It is not a flawless system, but current form really needs to play more of a roll. I have the following player who has played well consistently, has good stats, but continuously gets over looked:

Morra stats Morra history

Whilst I agree that SI should not have to account for repeated reloads, I do agree that there should be a form gauge of sorts that takes into consideration season form and current form.

My thoughts on this are that form starts from the last "Manual" save, or from the last reloaded point of the game, as well as the seasonal average ratings.

This way, if you have players in good seasonal form and then they play well over a period (say the last 10 games), and it is not via reloading until they perform well, they deserve to be placed into consideration for the national team. If they play well from reloads, their "form" will be blank and thus it will solely use the current method of selection.

This way, seasonal form plays a part, PA plays a part and current form plays a part, though current form is unique to the loaded session.

To show this, here is an example:

Championship player signs for Man City

Man City, start said player and, due to the team form, he plays well over a season, averaging 7.2 over 26 league games

after 15 matches without reloading in his second season, he has an average of 7.33 with his lowest being a 7

Due to his previous season form, plus his "current form" of 7.33 since the last reloaded session, he gets called up

Example from the alternate perspective:

Championship player signs for Man City

Man City, start said player and, due to the team form, he plays well over a season, averaging 7.2 over 26 league games

Player reloads the save file after losing to last place 7 games in and then reloads after losing to 2nd 11 games in to the 15 matches mentioned above

players "current form" is now judged over the last 4 games since the last reload at a rating of 7.12

The game decides that he has not played enough matches for his "current form" to be relevant and thus, the selection is made based on CA / PA

It is not a flawless system, but current form really needs to play more of a roll. I have the following player who has played well consistently, has good stats, but continuously gets over looked:

Morra stats Morra history

So if someone can only play one match a night, they may as well forget their players ever getting called up. Terrible sledgehammer style solution to a problem that arguably doesn't exist.

IMO, reloading or not, form should take more parts into selection.

Reloading is a legit way of playing. Whether it is considered cheating or not, and whether SI should or shan't take into consideration this kind of playing behaviour, the fact is we almost all agree that form taken far less into consideration than reputation and potential.

I am not complaining, only suggesting. Please look at the object, players on form getting overlooked, not the subject, OP is cheating

And regarding that saving and reloading stuff, to win cups and leagues, you don't need to win every game, you know that right?

Rather than the suggesting blank form from last loading time, a better way to implement is to prevent saving-reload cheating at all. Auto saving a little code after every match simulated.

Just hoping this form thing have better accomodation in next FM series.

What makes you think form isn't considered?

The AI - looks at your players and says I have 10 strikers to pick from.

The AI manager, who has stats in JPA and JPP looks at your squad, and the 10 other players to pick from, judging from that he says I will call up 4 players in that position.

He calls up players that best suit his, tactics, formation, and the best players available.

Your players are not the best players available, regardless of form.

Looking at reality - and using your logic:

Kelvin Davis should be no.1 keeper for England,

and Nathan Clyne should be an England starter,

along with Jay Rodriquez, Steven Davis, Ward-Prowse & Jack Cork

Because Southampton are 3rd in the league - the players should be in the England squad.

Reloading is a legit way of playing.

Rather than the suggesting blank form from last loading time, a better way to implement is to prevent saving-reload cheating at all. Auto saving a little code after every match simulated.

Wow, look at all the heat thrown.

These days, this forum is getting harder to discuss stuff proper way if somehow one implied the game is not perfect, no matter how many times you stated that you are not attacking the game.

Your players are not the best players available, regardless of form.

This, my friend, is the main discussion. Form should taken more into consideration; not everything; but into consideration more. That's why IRL some top players got dropped to another players. Balotelli, Peter Crouch, Veron, Casillas, Cech, et cetera.

And no, that is not my logic at all. I stated that NONE got called.

Every time we start a game, we load, right. Whether one schose to abandon a result and reloading, is one's choice. Hey, the game allowed it. Even the SI staff said somewhere that how one chose to play the game, it's ok.

What I suggested is, from previous comment made by others, if SI want to prevent that, simply a little code to make a save game resulted in a loss if one abandon a game after a match is played.

Or you know, laugh at me is okay too.

Not really heat, just baffled as to the massive about-face in your post.

This, my friend, is the main discussion. Form should taken more into consideration; not everything; but into consideration more. That's why IRL some top players got dropped to another players. Balotelli, Peter Crouch, Veron, Casillas, Cech, et cetera.

And no, that is not my logic at all. I stated that NONE got called.

So ---- answer my question, should half of the Southampton team be called up to the England squad because they are currently third in the leauge?

So if someone can only play one match a night, they may as well forget their players ever getting called up. Terrible sledgehammer style solution to a problem that arguably doesn't exist.

Fair enough. I am not the sort of person who plays for a large chunk at a time often, so I can relate. I also have no problem with whether a player plays internationally or not (whether he deserves the call up or not)

This is more in relation to the discussion that players who have a low CA but have played well and perhaps should be considered, but currently, may not be, as form (both seasonal and in the short term) doesn't seem to be a contributing factor as much as it possibly should.

As I said, it is not flawless, it was just a thought.

So ---- answer my question, should half of the Southampton team be called up to the England squad because they are currently third in the leauge?

No.

But if Soton managed to finish third, did well in Champions League, and stayed at top half more or less the next season (with more or less the same players), maybe one or two deserve a chance, don't you think? Maybe the top scorer, the top assister, or the little conceded defender or goalie?

Tyson, if soton managed to do at least as above, did it felt right if NONE got called to the three lion?

If that was to happen in real life there would be drug tests, and fraud charges and match fixing going on.

In essence, you shouldn't be allowed to do what you've done in the game. That's what is broken here.

Maybe the problem here isn't the players in your squad not being good enough, maybe your club reputation hasn't risen high enough to be inclusive in the AIs decision making.

That could be the issue.

I do agree, some players get called up on merit and form. But rarely stay in the team.

I do agree, some players get called up on merit and form. But rarely stay in the team.

Unless they become a rising star, got offer from bigger clubs. Thats how people like Rooney or CR or Crouch rise to fame. Unless the one like Matt LeTissier But still their playing form is what earned them attention from bigger eyes, right?

I remember in Italy there are Lucarelli, Otero, Scwosczh whose form earned them spotlight.

maybe your club reputation hasn't risen high enough to be inclusive in the AIs decision making.

I agree.

As I believe that nothing is broken in this game, maybe future game(s) could take form into more consideration. The next one. Like other aspects of the game that already made a huge haul up.

there would be drug tests, and fraud charges and match fixing going on

How cool it is if this got implemented in the game? If you reload after certain times the FA got you under investigation. ;D

Well the wouldn't be implemented in the game - as they are illegal.

I get your point about players not being called up to the International Squad.

I just don't agree to your reasoning as to why.

There could be a lot more at play as to why, it could be form, it could be club reputation, it could be a host of things.

Best bet is to post your findings in the Bugs forums and upload your save game so they can investigate exactly why your in-form players who win leagues and trophies are not being considered internationally.

===================================

But, don't most International Managers look for the best players from the best teams around the world.

It could be a fact that your club isn't big enough and the AI skips over you, and that shouldn't happen. Or perhaps your players reps aren't high enough.

Perhaps, the AI can pick only 23 players for their squad, and they already filled their quota of the better players, based on their JPA and JPP to be included in the international setup.

When it comes to your squad, scanning reputable clubs for players, all the spaces are filled by the time it gets to your team.

I don't know exactly how international AI managers operate.

But Form should be considered. Then again - I couldn't imagine too many players from Southampton being called up for International Duty just because they are 3rd in the league.

This is a non issue. International call ups are based on CA. Your team doesn't have players with good CA.

In reality, players with good CA tend to play in top teams, and have good runs of form etc, so it makes sense they get picked for their country.

So, it tends not to matter that international call ups are done by CA, and not purely form, because those two things often look the same.

In your case, you cheated, and have got players with low CA, and artificially good form. Rightly, the international teams ignore, or largely ignore, these players. They'd play badly for their country, the country knows this, so what's the problem?

So ---- answer my question, should half of the Southampton team be called up to the England squad because they are currently third in the leauge?

Quite a lot of their players are internationals. And yes, some of there players have been called up for England duty, e.g Nathaniel Clyne. And yes, If they continue to be a competitive top 10 team then I would expect more and more of their players to become internationals.

The problem is though, a lot of them won't.

And that's what is asked here. I wouldn't expect Clyne to remain in the squad for competitive matches.

I also noticed that once my team finished 10th, but won the coppa. Strange enough the game seem dismissed my cup win as I enter the next year copa in 3rd Qualifying Round.

It is a little bit silly that CA seems to only metric AI managers use to make their decisions for National Teams, but it's one of things that doesn't bother me a huge amount. Sure, there could be more sophistication in how they arrange their teams, but at the end of the day, choosing players based on ability alone isn't always a flawed strategy, sometimes it's even very successful. Given the lack of day to day interaction International managers have, I think SI have always struggled in terms of how to simulate International management, and it's understandable. The club game will always be the bread and butter, and things like that, the match engine, the interface and whatnot will always take precedence over making International manager AI more realistic. As it stands right now, I tend to only manage Internationally for casual saves and challenge games where I just go through one tournament cycle and see what I can do.

Nik_Dut you fool! How can you expect to put in an unrealistic input and receive a realistic output!?!?!?!?! It's almost as if you want to "experiment" with the reaction of the game to extreme situations in order to gauge whether the current system is the optimal one. What is wrong with you?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Excuse my sarcasm.

These days, this forum is getting harder to discuss stuff proper way if somehow one implied the game is not perfect, no matter how many times you stated that you are not attacking the game.

This is the best point in this thread and it isn't even on topic. In order that I don't accrue any more infractions I will make no further comment on this issue, as I have already posted extensively about it.

A few points:

1. It's worth mentioning that any system for international call-ups has to work for inactive leagues. While I agree that player form should be a very significant factor (more on this below) it would be hard to implement in the game where the majority of players don't have any fixtures. This is a pretty decisive point in favour of things working the way they do, and the fact that the usual apologists in this thread have failed to mention this speaks volumes about their credibility (or lack thereof.) I do think that the reputation system could do with being upgraded (I've posted about this at length elsewhere) but as it stands I think there isn't much room for manoeuvre here.

2. I'm seeing a lot of voices in here claiming that CA is the main factor determining international call-ups, and I am not convinced that this is entirely the case. For me, reputation is the greatest influence, but of course CA and reputation are heavily correlated so similar outcomes would result whichever it was. However, my main point on this issue of CA is this:

I think it is important to distinguish between real-life CA and in-game CA. How is real-life CA assessed? Using the performances of the player in real life. In-game CA is not dependent on performances (proven by inactive leagues). This difference is key, but being overlooked here. Consider that the situation the OP describes is now real life, and the researchers are compiling a database for FM. His players would be likely to all have a higher CA in the next version of the game. Some may have drastically higher CAs. The point is simple: CA does not work the same way in-game as it does in real life, and therefore by its very nature cannot be used in comparisons to real life.

So, to say that the system works correctly because the players with the highest CA are being picked for the international team is wrong, as the way these CA values were reached is incorrect. Yes, the players with the highest CAs SHOULD be the ones usually getting picked, but the fact that players who deserve a higher CA will not get it (until the next edition) makes this "meritocracy" invalid. If you don't believe there are any cases within FM where a player deserves a higher CA than he is able to have then you must also think that the way the researchers compile the database is incorrect.

3. Some people are saying that because this is an extreme that wouldn't happen in real life they are ok with it. I think it is worth pointing out that there are similar issues that don't come about as a result of something extreme or unrealistic, such as Cometdude's post above about high scoring premiership strikers. These sorts of things are caused by the same weakness in the system, as above.

So overall, given how the CA/PA system and reputation are deeply entrenched in the workings of the game, and considering the inactive league issue, I think it is clear that the current state of affairs is pretty close to the optimal one.

However, if we were to entertain the thought of an alternative to CA/PA and reputation, then there would undoubtedly be better and more realistic options available, that would model real life much more closely.

It seems to be a mix of reputation and CA I think.

Michael Carrick is always overlooked on my save, despite being, in my view, a phenomenal deep lying playmaker.

When I do International games I get laughed at for selecting Rickie Lambert... But then Internationals have always been silly, they seem to judge average form to include U21/Friendly games -it did in FM14, not sure about 15- so you could have a player who played 1/20 games with a 9 rating be 'in better form' than a player who played 20/20 at 8.9 for example.

I do think the AI needs to be 'blind' to CA and just go by attributes. However, the current 'average attributes' sum check is awful - this being the exact reason everyone is told to be a limited defender > central defender (Average is higher over less attributes for limited than central so it suggests the more dire role.)

I do wish they rid of the "laughed at" and replace with "Not exactly looking for"!