I think FM is scripted.

You can clearly see that the game is somewhat scripted. I often get those moments where after analyzing about 5 minutes of a match I'll go 'I've lost, forget about tactics' or 'I've won, relax'. And the CPU AI teams 'generally' have a higher goal scoring ratio when they play YOU, the human.

Don't flame or nothing, I'm just saying

I disagree on the "I've lost, forget it" part. I've had games where I've thought "Here we go again"... but I've just ramped up the pressure a bit and come away with a lucky last minute win.

I also think you need to fix your defence. Teams generally score fewer goals against me than against other teams in the league.

Not flaming or anything, just saying, it's all down to random chance.

so basically because you say 'i have lost' and you dont bother trying to turn around a result, the game is scripted?

If the "CPU AI teams 'generally'" had "a better goal-scoring ratio" when they played ME, the human, then by definition I would have the worst goals-against record in the league. Since I have the second best goals-against record in the league, this is not only wrong, but wrong to an almost inconceivable extent.

It seems to me that if you start a thread with such a provocative and insulting title, it behooves you to try to find at least a shred of evidence to support your thesis.

Random, yes, but it's still scripted though. In your first season, go a mediocre team and play Man U over and over again & count how many times you snatch a win. Guaranteed Man U beat you 9 times out of 10 & run all over the top of you 9 times out of 10, home & away.

Random, yes, but it's still scripted though. In your first season, go a mediocre team and play Man U over and over again & count how many times you snatch a win. Guaranteed Man U beat you 9 times out of 10 & run all over the top of you, home & away, 9 times out of 10.

wait, you're now saying that its scripted because if you played with a mediocre team against one of europes best 10 times you would lose 9?

Has to be a wind up thread.

Man alive. Where to being with this?

Random, yes, but it's still scripted though.

That's a contradiction. Random and scripted are mutually exclusive things. Something can not be pre-determined AND have a random outcome.

In your first season, go a mediocre team and play Man U over and over again & count how many times you snatch a win. Guaranteed Man U beat you 9 times out of 10 & run all over the top of you 9 times out of 10, home & awway.

That's because it's Man Utd. Because it's a genuinely good team against a mediocre team. Why is that surprising? No two matches will ever be exactly the same, but the probability of success is weighted in Man Utd's favour. It might not be 9 out of 10, it might never happen, or it might only be half the time. It depends on how you set up, and about a thousand random occurences during the game.

Yes & most notably in the first few seasons. Forget about big teams, certain situations just occur where the other team will have more of the ball & it doesn't matter how many times you reload the game.

Yes & most notably in the first few seasons. Forget about big teams, certain situations just occur where the other team will have more of the ball & it doesn't matter how many times you reload the game.

so what have you done to counter them having the ball? How have you tried to stop them keeping possesion?

I don't agree: so many times I have conceded late to lose or draw a game and, likewise, there have been many other times where my team scores late to earn a point or to earn all three.

By the way, as far as the mediocre teams snatching a point against ManU goes:

Granted, I was very lucky, but there was no point in that match where I could say "awww we lost" or "okay, we've won so let's relax".

In my later seasons I have both upset big teams and lost big to big teams, as well as lost to teams I should have beaten.

If tactics really mattered that much it wouldn't take much thinking to win every match. I'm sayng it's scrpted because it is impossible (I think anyway) to win every match because no team wins every match IRL. I'm saying YOU can't do nothing because it's scripted to play something like the real thing. I'm saying certain situations are out of your control & purely down to some random scripted luck

If tactics really mattered that much it wouldn't take much thinking to win every match. I'm sayng it's scrpted because it is impossible (I think anyway) to win every match because no team wins every match IRL. I'm saying YOU can't do nothing because it's scripted to play something like the real thing. I'm saying certain situations are out of your control & purely down to some random scripted luck

Certain situations are down to random luck as well. If they weren't, then Arsenal would win the title every year considering the fact that they have a very logical manager who takes statistics into account more than anyone else does. In American sports, the Oakland Athletics would have won the World Series at least once in the past ten years because their General Manager also is very logical and statistical.

Now, has Wenger won anything recently? Have the Oakland A's?

If tactics really mattered that much it wouldn't take much thinking to win every match. I'm sayng it's scrpted because it is impossible (I think anyway) to win every match because no team wins every match IRL. I'm saying YOU can't do nothing because it's scripted to play something like the real thing. I'm saying certain situations are out of your control & purely down to some random scripted luck

so far wrong.

It isnt only your tactics but also the other teams. You need to try and counter them, see where they are beating you and change it. It seems like your knowledge of the tactical side of the game is very poor, this is probably where you are having your issue. Try reading the tactical theroms, its for FM10 but its essentially the same. It can be found by clicking here

so far wrong.

It isnt only your tactics but also the other teams. You need to try and counter them, see where they are beating you and change it. It seems like your knowledge of the tactical side of the game is very poor, this is probably where you are having your issue. Try reading the tactical theroms, its for FM10 but its essentially the same. It can be found by clicking here

Not to mention more random factors such as injuries, fitness, discipline, jadedness, etc.

If something is random then it is not scripted

if you are playing as a lower table team it is quite likely that you will lose to one of the best sides in the world 9 times out of every 10

think before you write something that will generate a negative response if you dont want to be flamed

My oppinion is that you are playing as a mediocre team, you have just lost to man u, you dropped your toys and decided to reload and once again you have lost after repeating this process numerous times you have had a cry and decided to post here

You talkin about RL? I'm just saying that certain situations in the game are impossible because it tries to be like the real thing. The only way to make this computer game dfficult & to give the illusion of the real thing is to script it so that certain things never happen.

So the game is scripted. I'm not meaning this in a bad way, I just saw a lot of posts where people would say it's not scripted

its cause it isnt!

Whenever i see a team getting on top of me, i change the team around, play with the tactics, make subs etc and my team start to take control again.

Im nottrying to sound like im defending the game but i think this is down to you and not a 'script'

You talkin about RL? I'm just saying that certain situations in the game are impossible because it tries to be like the real thing. The only way to make this computer game dffucult & to give the illusion of the real thing is to script it so that certain things never happen.

So the game is scripted. I'm not meaning this in a bad way, I just saw a lot of posts where people would say it's not scripted

It's not. I know this because recently, I had a match in the same Blackpool save as the screenshot above in the same season where I beat Liverpool. I went outside and left the game running after that match and, when I came back, my computer was screwing up so I had to shut it off and, of course, my result was not saved. I'm not one to save and re-start so when I got to the Liverpool match I saved before and said "I will not settle for less than one point". After about four or five re-starts, my team got a draw. I won the first time, then lost five times, then drew- that's pretty random but, the truth is, the better team will win most of the time. Again, though, I have seen my team get lucky results plenty of times (see ManU screen above) and even after I say "well, we've lost" or "we've won!" seen things change from there.

Soccer is a game where a more skilled team will generally win, and I think the game reflects this well. In American football, a more physical team will win most of the time whereas in baseball there is a ton of randomness but there are so many games that generally speaking, the best teams make the playoffs. Personally, I think the game reflects the real-life dimensions of this well. For example, had I replayed that game against ManU 10 times I doubt I would have won again and that's the way it should be- in the next season I lost my home game to them 2-7 despite the fact that I had a better team than the first season but, in all honesty, ManU have a better team than me. The truth is that, IRL 9/10 ManU would beat Blackpool and, in-game, it is probably about the same.

Certain situations are down to random luck as well. If they weren't, then Arsenal would win the title every year considering the fact that they have a very logical manager who takes statistics into account more than anyone else does. In American sports, the Oakland Athletics would have won the World Series at least once in the past ten years because their General Manager also is very logical and statistical.

Now, has Wenger won anything recently? Have the Oakland A's?

Leave Billy Beane out of this

Honestly.....sounds like frustration to me. And when people get frustrated and angry and upset, they tend to exaggerate about how bad things are.

People defend the game because its a good game overall. Yes it has its issues but there isn't a piece of complex software that doesn't.

As for the game being scripted, I'm sure that you, Azuru, have seen matches in real life where you have said to yourself 'its just not this team's or player's day'. There are those days when it feels like the entire universe is conspiring against you. Heck, it happens outside of football as well right?

In fact I felt like I was having one of those today. Champions league knockout stage second leg. I am barca playing chelsea at stamford bridge. Due to injuries and fatigue, This was my starting line up: Valdes, Puyol, Pique, Chygrynskiy, Milito, Marquez, Toure, Keita, Pedro, Bojan, Gervinho.

At halftime, chelsea had 12 shots on target and 68% possession. I had 1 shot and 1 goal. Chelsea dominated me the entire half...I was resigned to the fact that any moment chelsea would score 3 in 5 minutes on me. I was being pounded like I was a league 1 side. But then, right at the end of the first half, I got a chance to attack and Yaya scored one from 30 yards out.

In the second half, I attacked more in order to get a second goal and I got it.

At the end of the day, a match I probably should have lost 5-0, I ended up winning 2-1.

Guess it wasn't chelsea's day

You talkin about RL? I'm just saying that certain situations in the game are impossible because it tries to be like the real thing. The only way to make this computer game dfficult & to give the illusion of the real thing is to script it so that certain things never happen.

So the game is scripted. I'm not meaning this in a bad way, I just saw a lot of posts where people would say it's not scripted

Right. I think I finally get your point. But it's still wrong.

When you say scripted, it gives the impression to me that you mean a definite outcome, which FM is most certainly not. No single result can be guaranteed.

It does, however, favour certain teams. The fact that Man Utd have significantly better players than Blackpool means that they are more likely to win. They're more likely to complete tackles, find the right pass, and score goals. They aren't guaranteed it, as evidenced by ArranoBeltza. This is hideously simplified, but imagine we pick a random number between 0 and 1. Any value is just as likely as any other. However, we say that if it is in the range [0,0.7), it's a Man Utd win, [0.7, 0.8) is a Blackpool win, and [0.8, 1] is a draw. That's not scripted. That's weighted probabilities. We influence the ranges assigned to each team with our team selections, complacency, determination, formations, tactical tinkering, substitutions and so on.

If every result was truly random and fair, there would be no point in researching which players are good.

I'm saying the game might 'up' or 'lower' things to compete with a human & to keep the end season realistic. I.E. Like the table looking something like the real thing

I'm saying the game might 'up' or 'lower' things to compete with a human & to keep the end season realistic. I.E. Like the table looking something like the real thing

it really doesn't though, someone else had posted in another thread that they'd won the premier league with Leeds United about four seasons or so into the game and went on to win a number of titles in a row.

There's no doubt that the bigger teams have an advantage because they have better players, more money and better staff but there's no magic change the game makes to make sure they remain the bigger clubs. If they take advantage of their status and the benefits of being a bigger club they are likely to stay there otherwise in time they can become smaller and so many people have been cappable of achieving amazing things in a few seasons on each edition of fm so theres no doubt in my mind that anything's fixed to suit realism.

I'm saying the game might 'up' or 'lower' things to compete with a human & to keep the end season realistic. I.E. Like the table looking something like the real thing

I don't think that is entirely the case. Check this out:

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6290/titleku.png

You can clearly see that the game is somewhat scripted. I often get those moments where after analyzing about 5 minutes of a match I'll go 'I've lost, forget about tactics' or 'I've won, relax'. And the CPU AI teams 'generally' have a higher goal scoring ratio when they play YOU, the human.

Don't flame or nothing, I'm just saying

I had a game where I dominated the entire first half away at Blackpool and was 2-0 up comfortably only to lose 4-2. I am sure I have read somewhere the scores are decided at the start of the match and then this all changes as various variables change. However it doesn't matter because you don't know this score. If yor 2-0 down the game may have scripted you to win 3-2 etc etc.

I really don't know how the game can be scripted, the AI doesn't know whether you're gonna change formation or substitute a player...

Also, to prove that it doesn't keep it realistic:

Season 1 Table

Season 2 Table

Season 3 Table

Season 4 Table

Surely if the game was scripted then other teams would progress much better to keep up with my unbeatable two season run...

30 time reload, but you can't win

It took me a while to find this, but it is quite a good read for those who believe the game is scripted.

If tactics really mattered that much it wouldn't take much thinking to win every match. I'm sayng it's scrpted because it is impossible (I think anyway) to win every match because no team wins every match IRL. I'm saying YOU can't do nothing because it's scripted to play something like the real thing. I'm saying certain situations are out of your control & purely down to some random scripted luck

I don't agree because if you added a manager to your next opponents before every game and messed up their tactics, played without a goal keeper etc you would win every single match.

I knew someone who actually played the game like this for some strange reason. He liked to win all his games 10+ - 0.

Proof that the game is not scripted.

I had a game where I dominated the entire first half away at Blackpool and was 2-0 up comfortably only to lose 4-2. I am sure I have read somewhere the scores are decided at the start of the match and then this all changes as various variables change. However it doesn't matter because you don't know this score. If yor 2-0 down the game may have scripted you to win 3-2 etc etc.

IIRC, At the start of the game, the match events are calculated up to half time. Any tactical changes you make mean it re-calculates the remainder of the half, with new random values. Same thing happens in the second half.

You can clearly see that the game is somewhat scripted. I often get those moments where after analyzing about 5 minutes of a match I'll go 'I've lost, forget about tactics' or 'I've won, relax'. And the CPU AI teams 'generally' have a higher goal scoring ratio when they play YOU, the human.

Don't flame or nothing, I'm just saying

Last time I checked this is a game, the AI is programmed so of course it will be scripted. There will always be limits.

Last time I checked this is a game, the AI is programmed so of course it will be scripted. There will always be limits.

It is scripted for the purposes of showing the highlights, but as soon as you change something (tactics, team talk etc.) then it is re-scripted. Basically, if you are watching the match thinking 'I know what is going to happen here' then you really need to do something about it.

30 time reload, but you can't win

It took me a while to find this, but it is quite a good read for those who believe the game is scripted.

Wow, after reading through the whole thread, I'm disappointed that it's his tactics and not Mourinho being the Special One.

30 time reload, but you can't win

It took me a while to find this, but it is quite a good read for those who believe the game is scripted.

I remember reading that thread when it was originally posted.....I think I spend too much time on the forums....

I'm saying the game might 'up' or 'lower' things to compete with a human & to keep the end season realistic. I.E. Like the table looking something like the real thing

Ok it's obvious your not very good at the game and you've come on here to vent and talk rubbish. People manage unbeaten seasons (i've had 5 myself), winning 4, 5, 6 trophies in a season, perfect seasons even (all wins).

EDIT: I've had big gaps over second placed teams (won 17 straight titles). Won a league with 7 games to go before. (34 match league).

Of course the game is scripted, that's why everybody has exactly the same play experience with it. </sarcasm>

Me being unhelpful aside - I think that a lot of people don't really take into account the fact that their perception is heavily influenced. You're far more likely to remember that game where the opponents nicked a winner on 90+3 than you are the game you cruised 2-0 in, and because these games stick in your mind more you then start to perceive that it's happening more often than it actually is.

DISCLAIMER - I have no expertise in the matter, this is merely my opinion

Just a thought but surely everyone has had that game where you have 30+ shots and no one can score, even if you get a pen it gets missed and they counter and score with one shot. That has to be scripted, and you can spot those games but I usually find its against a poor team and seems to be in there to reflect it does happen in real life, see Blackpool vs Spurs (to some extent!). It's just a frustrating feature of the game.

However the idea that because you can't beat Man U with West Brom easily is clearly not scripting, its just a fact that they are better then you!

I think it's partly scripted. If it wasn't, how could you explain things like the game keeping the score realistic by missing a host of chances when you create a silly attacking formation? The game quite clearly makes you miss a few to keep the scores reasonable. For instance, I win 7-0, and then 6-0, I know at some point in the next game or so I will get a 0 score after missing a host of ridiculously easy chances and hitting the post or bar god knows how many times, otherwise I would end up with a stupid goals scored tally at the end of the season. I think the game compensates to keep things fairly realistic as it's easily beatable and easy to use or create formations that create an unrealistic amount of chances.

Thats my theory, anyway, which I vehemently believe after playing this game for years and years.

People can say 'but that happens in real life!' but that isn't what we're talking about here, just because it's happened proves nothing in this instance.

I think it's partly scripted. If it wasn't, how could you explain things like the game keeping the score realistic by missing a host of chances when you create a silly attacking formation? The game quite clearly makes you miss a few to keep the scores reasonable. For instance, I win 7-0, and then 6-0, I know at some point in the next game or so I will get a 0 score after missing a host of ridiculously easy chances and hitting the post or bar god knows how many times, otherwise I would end up with a stupid goals scored tally at the end of the season. I think the game compensates to keep things fairly realistic as it's easily beatable and easy to use or create formations that create an unrealistic amount of chances.

Thats my theory, anyway, which I vehemently believe after playing this game for years and years.

People can say 'but that happens in real life!' but that isn't what we're talking about here, just because it's happened proves nothing in this instance.

Absolute rubbish.

Can't believe the discussion is still on going.

Its really simple - When you press continue the game calculates what happens based on the various inputs (Player attributes, teamtalks, tactics, morale etc). It then plays out that result in a graphical format. When you or the ai make any changes the ME recalculates what happens between the change and the end of the match again playing it out in a graphical format.

Absolute rubbish.

Can't believe the discussion is still on going.

Its really simple - When you press continue the game calculates what happens based on the various inputs (Player attributes, teamtalks, tactics, morale etc). It then plays out that result in a graphical format. When you or the ai make any changes the ME recalculates what happens between the change and the end of the match again playing it out in a graphical format.

exactly this, its impossible for it to be scripted when you can make a massive amount of changes to what the outcome is going to be. Everything you change can affect the outcome of the game so the AI would have to anticipate your changes before you had made them.

obviously the guy is a total FM noob... if it was scripted, then my Arsenal would not lose to ****** league 2 teams and at the same time I shouldnt come back from being 2-0 down against barcelona to winning it 4-2.

It could be possible to be scripted and this could be the main reason why AI is adjusting strategy so many times during a game.I also believe that a tactic eficiency and importance was big time reduced and its a sad thing because in major part is all about players,team talks,morale,Match preparation,luck.I tell this because just for fun i tried in a save to counter 451 Arsenal with a mediocre team such Blackpool testing n tactics and my conclusion is that the result is predermined(u will lose 80-90 % times doesnt matter tactic) and u cant do mutch things to improve your chances lets say to at least 50 % succes rate(and i think in real life this could be easily done),This is impossible by making " perfect countertactic for a tactic like arsenal's451",this is just a myth and its all about players,luck morale etc.

It could be possible to be scripted and this could be the main reason why AI is adjusting strategy so many times during a game.I also believe that a tactic eficiency and importance was big time reduced and its a sad thing because in major part is all about players,team talks,morale,Match preparation,luck.I tell this because just for fun i tried in a save to counter 451 Arsenal with a mediocre team such Blackpool testing n tactics and my conclusion is that the result is predermined and u cant do mutch things to improve your chances using lets say a "countertactic",this is just a mit and its all about players,luck morale etc.

im afraid your conclusion is only half right, read what people are saying the result is recalculated EVERY time anything is changed from team talks to changing one notch on a slider to changing formation, everything you do changes the out come of a match. Nothing is decided for certain before the game starts.

On only two occasions have I felt I've been shafted by the computer - boths times flying into a 3-0 lead away from home in Europe.

First time I said I was pleased and the opposition scored 3 in the first 7 mins of the 2nd half and went on to score another 2. The second I warned against complaicency and this time 3 goals in 9 mins against.

I suspected EPO injections but couldn't find the right button to press.

On only two occasions have I felt I've been shafted by the computer - boths times flying into a 3-0 lead away from home in Europe.

First time I said I was pleased and the opposition scored 3 in the first 7 mins of the 2nd half and went on to score another 2. The second I warned against complaicency and this time 3 goals in 9 mins against.

I suspected EPO injections but couldn't find the right button to press.

NEVER say you are pleased at half time. It just leads to complacency as you have demonstrated.

There's a great team talk thread somewhere in the Tactics forum, but I believe the gist is that you encourage or be disappointed, but never at half time give them reason to slack off.

Absolute rubbish.

Can't believe the discussion is still on going.

Its really simple - When you press continue the game calculates what happens based on the various inputs (Player attributes, teamtalks, tactics, morale etc). It then plays out that result in a graphical format. When you or the ai make any changes the ME recalculates what happens between the change and the end of the match again playing it out in a graphical format.

When you press continue the game calculates what happens based on the various inputs like player attributes, team talks, morale etc, which is fair enough, but what else does it take into account? Does it take into account how many goals you've scored in the lat 5 games? Does it take into account how many you have conceded? Does it take into account how many goals you could possibly have at the end of the season if your ridiculous scoring rate continues? And so on and so forth. If it takes these things into account it would prove my point. And I find it hard to believe that it doesn't take these things into account or the game would turn out to be ridiculous.

Another thing, people love to jump on the defensive band wagon about the game not being scripted but I'm yet to see any proof to back these theory's up. Show me proof and show me EVERYTHING that the game takes into account when calculating these things. The game may recalculate certain things but that may not effect other stuff that is already scripted or decided (or calculated ), or even if it does, never quite enough to change it, it will just change a few minor things, like injuries etc. So my theory still stands that the game is partly scripted.

NEVER say you are pleased at half time. It just leads to complacency as you have demonstrated.

There's a great team talk thread somewhere in the Tactics forum, but I believe the gist is that you encourage or be disappointed, but never at half time give them reason to slack off.

Pleased is a good team talk when used in the correct manner and like all team talks it has a positive & negative results.

It can boost a team on from an average performance to a great one but many users focus too much on the negative side of it that can lead to complacency.

Another thing, people love to jump on the defensive band wagon about the game not being scripted but I'm yet to see any proof to back these theory's up. Show me proof and show me EVERYTHING that the game takes into account when calculating these things. The game may recalculate certain things but that may not effect other stuff that is already scripted or decided, or even if it does, never quite enough to change it, it will just change a few minor things, like injuries etc. So my theory still stands that the game is partly scripted.

well the proof we have is from reading what the guys from SI have said in previous threads, when they have explained partially how the ME calculates results, whereas your theory is completely unsubstantiated. Nothing is decided for definite at the start of the game, nothing at all, not winner, scoreline, injuries or anything else, the game calculates a result based on players, rep, form, formation, press conferences and a few other bits and pieces, this is then recalculated after your team talk, and then from each change onwards.

When you press continue the game calculates what happens based on the various inputs like player attributes, team talks, morale etc, which is fair enough, but what else does it take into account? Does it take into account how many goals you've scored in the lat 5 games? Does it take into account how many you have conceded? Does it take into account how many goals you could possibly have at the end of the season if your ridiculous scoring rate continues? And so on and so forth. If it takes these things into account it would prove my point. And I find it hard to believe that it doesn't take these things into account or the game would turn out to be ridiculous.

I would very much doubt that any of those you have listed are directly taken into account as none of them have any bearing on your current match.

Indirectly things like scoring a lot of goals recently gives a team confidence and this is represented in FM through things like morale etc.

Another thing, people love to jump on the defensive band wagon about the game not being scripted but I'm yet to see any proof to back these theory's up. Show me proof and show me EVERYTHING that the game takes into account when calculating these things. The game may recalculate certain things but that may not effect other stuff that is already scripted or decided (or calculated ), or even if it does, never quite enough to change it, it will just change a few minor things, like injuries etc. So my theory still stands that the game is partly scripted.

Where is your proof that it is?

My description above of how it works is the generally accepted one by most experienced users. I'm sure somewhere down the years that SI have confirmed it but your right I can't link you to any information that proves it.

Its not just FM though a lot of management style games use this type of technique eg Hattrick, Battrick etc.

well the proof we have is from reading what the guys from SI have said in previous threads, when they have explained partially how the ME calculates results, whereas your theory is completely unsubstantiated. Nothing is decided for definite at the start of the game, nothing at all, not winner, scoreline, injuries or anything else, the game calculates a result based on players, rep, form, formation, press conferences and a few other bits and pieces, this is then recalculated after your team talk, and then from each change onwards.

You haven't proved anything and until you do, your theory is completely unsubstantiated. You have done absolutely nothing to disprove my theory.

And you even help my argument by saying that they've only partially explained (if they did at all, I would like to see it) how the match engine works, which makes my theory completely plausible.

i haven´t been around for ever, but from what i gather then it seems that there could be a factor in that managers have to evolve their tactics throughout a season. si dropped a big hint when they made the tactic wizard, so it´s not jus changing for the sake of it. i think that it does help when you know what to change and when or at least i think so from minor experiences. the whole thing is early days for me so i am not going to play professor but if the game was scripted then we would all be experiencing the same thing all the time. looking at posts around this place kind of tells a different story so i´m just saying

You haven't proved anything and until you do, your theory is completely unsubstantiated. You have done absolutely nothing to disprove my theory.

And you even help my argument by saying that they've only partially explained (if they did at all, I would like to see it) how the match engine works, which makes my theory completely plausible.

mines is not a theory its pretty much a copy and paste from what SI have said in the past, however iyou are correct i havent proved anything and really have no interested in searching through possibly tens of thousands of posts to find what im looking for so we can both go away happy knowing we are correct in what we say