FM10 Tactics Ideas - Time for the sliders to go...

[mav1420]

I completely agree with the original post - the fact that the slider system needs 50 pages of fan base content to explain how they work in itself tells us that the sliders do not work.

The verbal approach would be much more appropriate to real life football simulation. If we agree changing 20 notches to 20 verbal commands doesn't effect the way the notches are actually acted upon by the match engine then we aren't making the game easier - just actually clarifying what the myriad of settings achieve.

The game is hard if you don't understand the impact of the sliders and easy if you do. What some are saying therefore is that changing the sliders to verbal instructions will make the game easier because the only reason is it hard is because of the ambiguity of the sliders. Frankly that's not even an arguement (or at least not a good one!)

[mav1420]

So basically you want a p*ss easy game?

As for realistic games, do you like war games mate? I do, but id be pretty ****ed off if i didnt respawn after i died because they wanted a realistic game? Bottom line is its a game it will never be real life so get over it

Operation Flashback always seemed fun and that was pretty unforgiving!

[moj]

i'd rather lose and try hard to find a way to win rather than winning all the time mav1420

[iamjerome]

i think a lot of you defending the slider system are missing the point; the essence of what is wrong with FM is that the game is difficult to learn but easy to master which is exactly opposite of what any game should be. i don't have any trouble getting success because i know how everything works and have done so because of years of experience, however it cannot be denied that it is an inherent and categorical flaw of the game that not only does there need to be as much research and analysis for a document like tt&f to exist in terms of explaining the slider mechanics but also the simple necessity to use SEVERAL instructions (via sliders and what not) to give one basic instruction to a player to 'cut inside with the ball' and various more of such ilk. the sliders are 'fine' in the sense that yes, they (once you have learnt the intricacies and gotten past the painful amount of ambiguity) are a workable tool of translating your instruction to a computer program but they are definitely NOT intuitive enough to make FM09 accessible to new players especially with how the tactical application has changed with arrows and so on.

[treble_yell_:-)]

i'd rather lose and try hard to find a way to win rather than winning all the time mav1420

I agree , but id rather have a better representation of how im going to fix whatever the problem is that thinking " i wonder if its because i have my mentality at 14 when it needs to be at 15 " etc

i dont want to lose the difficulty, i do however want to be able to play FM without having to read the TT&F every year .

Im pretty sure if i had never played another FM , or wasn't the type of person to visit gaming forums that FM09 would quickly have slipped to the bottom of my games pile never to be played again. To me thats a pretty damming assessment , football manager is no longer accessible to new users or to the non hardcore and a lot of that is down to the dated GUI in many parts of the game, but most notably in the tactics area

[Ando THFC]

The real nub of the problem with tactics in FM is that even when you have an idea of what you want to do, the sliders and tick boxes make it a guessing game as to how to actually do it.

For example, I want my side to keep possession, lots of movement from the front two and killer through balls played when the chance arises. Now to set that up, I have to dig around in a dozen different sliders and tick boxes of several different players hoping that I'm magically on the right 'notch' for the tactic to work. Even if I read the ridiculous tactics guides (which are actually more explanations of the what the sliders do) it's still a guessing game and it's wholly unrealistic.

The instructions should be changed to have a more practical grounding. So, for example, the closing down instruction should be illustrated with a diagram of the pitch and you designate the areas of the actual pitch you want players to close down. If I want my central defenders to only close down at the 18 yard line, why should I have to guess whether that is notch 3, 4 or 5? As a real manager with a tactics board in the dressing room I may well point to a section of the pitch and say "I want you to get into the final third and deliver crosses", "I want you to play the ball into this channel where possible" etc. It's not the return of wibble/wobble, it's about making the instructions less of a guessing game.

Removing the sliders and transferring the instructions to a more practical illustration would be more realistic, more intuitive and wouldn't actually need a complete rewrite of the existing code because it's basically just a more user-friendly way of illustrating the sliders. It would also provide huge scope for future tactical developments.

[3889011]

I totally agree with the majority of the posts in this thread but why anyone from SI or any mod is not answering???

[treble_yell_:-)]

I totally agree with the majority of the posts in this thread but why anyone from SI or any mod is not answering???

2 reasons id guess , firstly because they never ever post here and secondly i doubt the tactics module is high up their priority's list, we lost the arrows because it allowed users to break/exploit the ME, i doubt they want to give us better tactical tools as i will allow us again to expose the frailty's of the ME

[Mitja]

The real nub of the problem with tactics in FM is that even when you have an idea of what you want to do, the sliders and tick boxes make it a guessing game as to how to actually do it.

For example, I want my side to keep possession, lots of movement from the front two and killer through balls played when the chance arises. Now to set that up, I have to dig around in a dozen different sliders and tick boxes of several different players hoping that I'm magically on the right 'notch' for the tactic to work. Even if I read the ridiculous tactics guides (which are actually more explanations of the what the sliders do) it's still a guessing game and it's wholly unrealistic.

The instructions should be changed to have a more practical grounding. So, for example, the closing down instruction should be illustrated with a diagram of the pitch and you designate the areas of the actual pitch you want players to close down. If I want my central defenders to only close down at the 18 yard line, why should I have to guess whether that is notch 3, 4 or 5? As a real manager with a tactics board in the dressing room I may well point to a section of the pitch and say "I want you to get into the final third and deliver crosses", "I want you to play the ball into this channel where possible" etc. It's not the return of wibble/wobble, it's about making the instructions less of a guessing game.

Removing the sliders and transferring the instructions to a more practical illustration would be more realistic, more intuitive and wouldn't actually need a complete rewrite of the existing code because it's basically just a more user-friendly way of illustrating the sliders. It would also provide huge scope for future tactical developments.

completly agree.

there's one thing i find unrealistic with FM tactics is tactical consistency in different tactics (standard, attacking, defensive..). i agree managers need to have and have different tactics for different oppositions and they do tweak tactics, there's no way these tactics could include totally different mentalities, marking systems, passing styles and all other instructions. it would be extremly difficult for players in real life to adapt to completly different instructions for each tactics. yet that's a normal thing in FM, especially if playing with club outside of big 4 in PL for example.

tactical consistancy should be more important at least some basic instructions like mentality, passing style, marking system.. these are the things that should need a lot of work in training to work successfully. but there's no corelation between tactics and training in FM and that's what i would like to see in the future. you should be able to set and then train your basic tactical ideas and style. teams can't and don't play fast/direct football in one match and then slow/possession style in another with same success..that's not happening in real life.

again i'm not saying RL managers don't tweak or change their instructions, imo it's too easy to use completly different tactics for each situation. that's also one of the reasons why poor quality AI teams are able to look like brazil, at least that was the case in FM08 and before. i think squad gelling and player ability do look much more important in 09, and that's good.

EDIT: i didn't play FM09 nearly enough to say this above is all 100% true.

[tingting]

I think everybody will agree that there is nothing wrong with the sliders. The problem is how they are implemented in the tactical interface. At present time (unless somebody has a eureka moment that will satisfy all) sliders are the only possible method using which you can shape the way your team plays on the pitch. However the problem here is the slider numbers. Not even the TTF explains exactly how to use the sliders correctly, saying that they are just the framework and will not work for each and every team. Fair enough, nobody is looking for a super tactic.

However using numbers of the sliders mean that us players who are not that well versed with tactics will have to try out different combinations. Now that wouldnt be much of a problem had they not been 20 options for each slider. And there are four different sliders that use the 20-notch option. Even if you reduce the number 20 to say 5-6 (defend for defense, attack for attackers and normal for others) that would mean checking out at least 5*5*5*5=625 different combinations (now i might be just babbling here ) And things have not helped by the confusion of the creative freedom slider and not knowing how far will the player go if we increase/decrease the closing down slider.

A far better option could be doing away with the numbers and limiting the mentality, creative freedom, passing style and closing down sliders to just three options as used for the remaining sliders. As someone pointed out, whats the difference between the lowest notch of, say a defensive mentality system and the highest noth (ie 1 and 5) If there is no difference, then why when asked on the tactics forum do those who know the sliders say reduce/increase your notch by 1-2 etc etc. I would understand if reducing/increasing it would change the metality (say from defensive to normal, or normal to attacking) but sometimes we are told to reduce the notches in the same mentality system. Ok not just three, you can use five options (ultra defensive, defensive, normal, attacking, all out attack (i am just using the mentality example here but this could be used to the other three sliders as well))

We could then be provided with position specific tactical options (such as asking a striker to come deep to get the ball, asking the winger to cut inside or hug the line, asking a player to try playing through balls on the flanks, asking the striker to place his shots etc etc) And since we are on the subject, the team talks can also be changed to use such options (for example asking your winger (or any player) to try to dribble past the opponent, or ask your striker not to hit long shots (this happens in 09 even if the long shot options are set to rare)

The game will not become easy just because the numbers are gone since all the other factors (morale, condition, team talk, ability, media interaction etc etc) still exist. What will become easier is building a base for a tactic and finding where one is going wrong rather than trying to guess whether the creative freedom slider should have been a couple of notch lower or mentality should have been a couple of notch higher

[Burnleyfan4life]

personally im not going to spend half an hour writing whats wrong and what could be improved because of my opinion but i do feel the verbal approch and the ability to instruct your players what exactly you want them to do sounds better than sliders as i find them extremely complicated and too hard to understand fully. but if they werent changed for the next addition of FM i probably woundnt buy it as i buy the game for fun and thats why im not a football professional manager as im not good enough and i dont think making the game so hard that you actually feel like your not having fun is abit crap also the fact some people are saying you should watch a full game and saying that real life mangers do and so should we is the stupidest thing ive ever heard there jobs are full time and as im just kid at school i feel im not good enough to play the game which really as a game it shouldnt do.

[RT--]

I agree with the idea that the tactics system needs a real overhaul.

The problem with a overhaul of any kind is the nature of SI's contract with Sega, which means they have to release a game every year. There's just no scope for big changes, and anything which impacts on the match engine is going to take too much testing time. I can't imagine any fundamental changes (your CM2 ---> CM3 ---> CM4 style re-writes) in the near future. SI need to add enough new features to sell the game each year, without actually having the space or time to make fundamental changes.

So, in the absence of a tactics re-write, I guess the best we can hope for is a big change in how the tactical instructions are represented.

As someone says above, things like closing down should be represented by a circle around the player or a zone of the pitch where they should pressure the ball. Mentality should be set by dragging a player further forward or backward, within a pre-defined area relative to his position. Defensive line and width could easily be represented this way, too. The way it's all set out at the moment makes setting tactics a real chore, and can only mean that a lot of users don't get much further than setting (the useless) default tactics.

At least changing the way tactics are laid-out might make it a tiny bit more intuitive for the novice user, and would certainly make life a lot easier for those of us who like to get quite involved with the tactics.

[3889011]

Why do we bother to post in here. No one from SI is reading this. They do not listen to their customers regarding ME. Tactical rewrite needs to be much bigger priority than flawed 3D which only slowed down the game.

This should be an priority for FM 10 not just some cosmetic features which are cool for only one week and after that usually annoying (press conferences).

We should organize a poll what should be the priorities for FM 10 in General Discussion.

[GavinZac]

Said this before. People take the sliders far to literally.

They're a tool SI have used to translate what you would ask the players to do in real life onto the game.

But if I just want to tell my full backs not to venture forward so much, I dont want to have to guess whether they should be on 5 clicks or 7 or whatever. I usually just drag them back or forward a few without much science behind it. The match engine should be simulating sports not maths.

[DrFager]

i look at this from a reverse perspective. if the tactics were such an easy aspect of the game then the game would get more difficult. if you couldn't exploit the tactics aspect of the game or tweak the approach to unbeatable levels how would people take Newcastle to the champions league in one season, or win the prem with Tott in year one? if it was easy to master the tactics side of the game then the game would be like real life, deduced to which teams have the most money to buy the best players. its the tactics aspect of the game that enables teams to do things that are not actually possible or extremely unlikely.

i dont think the sliders are the perfect answer from an interface standpoint, but any system that allows you to tweak that many options is probably going to require the same amount of attention to detail as the sliders. and that is the crux of the problem, some people play mainly from a man management, sporting director angle and not from a tactical perspective which the bulk of the game clearly revolves around.

perhaps they can make a mode that does not emphasize the tactics, but is from a sporting director angle or create an easy difficulty setting for those that cant hack it handling a couple sliders. maybe they could create a quadruple difficulty setting, so that any player that plays wins every competition they enter.

[iamjerome]

i look at this from a reverse perspective. if the tactics were such an easy aspect of the game then the game would get more difficult. if you couldn't exploit the tactics aspect of the game or tweak the approach to unbeatable levels how would people take Newcastle to the champions league in one season, or win the prem with Tott in year one? if it was easy to master the tactics side of the game then the game would be like real life, deduced to which teams have the most money to buy the best players. its the tactics aspect of the game that enables teams to do things that are not actually possible or extremely unlikely.

i dont think the sliders are the perfect answer from an interface standpoint, but any system that allows you to tweak that many options is probably going to require the same amount of attention to detail as the sliders. and that is the crux of the problem, some people play mainly from a man management, sporting director angle and not from a tactical perspective which the bulk of the game clearly revolves around.

perhaps they can make a mode that does not emphasize the tactics, but is from a sporting director angle or create an easy difficulty setting for those that cant hack it handling a couple sliders. maybe they could create a quadruple difficulty setting, so that any player that plays wins every competition they enter.

i re-iterate, it's not about difficulty to master but the difficulty to learn how it works.

mastering is easy. the game isn't a challenge and i realise the difficulty is what most are moaning about but try and read through that to WHY.

[djl404]

a lot of you here don't get the basic idea what the other people are saying which is: no, we don't want the game to be easy. no, we don't want to have a monster tactic which will win games by 5 goals on the way to undefeated treble seasons. just explain what is the difference between a 14 or a 15 notch on the slider? what is that a creative freedom of 17 will do instead of 16? how to make a winger go inside and shoot the damn ball into the goal instead of waiting for everyone else to arrive in the box?

IRL tactics are a way of using what's best of your players and limiting the other team's best players. in the end, players play. if you get tactics wrong in the game, but you have a superior team, you shouldn't constantly lose.

why not just add a simple training ground feature where you can try out tactics and see what will this slider do or that? this way, it's all trial and error, you probably need 2 or 3 test saves to realise what's going on before you start a proper game

[Tuukka]

a lot of you here don't get the basic idea what the other people are saying which is: no, we don't want the game to be easy. no, we don't want to have a monster tactic which will win games by 5 goals on the way to undefeated treble seasons. just explain what is the difference between a 14 or a 15 notch on the slider? what is that a creative freedom of 17 will do instead of 16? how to make a winger go inside and shoot the damn ball into the goal instead of waiting for everyone else to arrive in the box?

IRL tactics are a way of using what's best of your players and limiting the other team's best players. in the end, players play. if you get tactics wrong in the game, but you have a superior team, you shouldn't constantly lose.

why not just add a simple training ground feature where you can try out tactics and see what will this slider do or that? this way, it's all trial and error, you probably need 2 or 3 test saves to realise what's going on before you start a proper game

´Training ground idea sounds really good! That would put the whole tactics in new perspective.

[bigdirtyjames]

Right, I don't see what's so difficult to understand about what I'm saying...

Like I said in the original post, you wouldn't say to Beckham 'Becks, I want you to play witha mentality 2 notches into attacking. Terry, can you play 4 notches up from the lowest mentality please? Rooney, I would like you to be 2 notches higher than normal with your creative freedom'.

In real life there aren't x degrees of attacking mentality. It comes down to what the player and manager interpret as an attacking mentality. Some players are naturally more attacking minded or more aggressive with their attacking than others.

Thus it is unrealistic.

Also, there is no explantion anywhere as to what degree of difference each increase in notch makes. It is trial and error at best, requiring 50 pages of explanation at worst.

Of course you wouldn't say that to Beckham, unless you're playing a game - which this is.

There are degrees of attacking mentality, and maybe it's not as precise as this game suggests, but this is the only way you can get your players to do what is needed.

I think it's fine myself.

[DrFager]

i re-iterate, it's not about difficulty to master but the difficulty to learn how it works.

but is it that difficult? i agree there is some trial and error and may take some time, but with the amount of tweakable options its inevitable.

if you want a player to be defensive minded, put his mentality to defensive. if you dont want him to make forward runs click it to rarely. if you dont want them to run with the ball click it to rarely.

im not getting what is that difficult. there are certainly some nuances to the system and most of the problem stems from the universal settings that override individual instructions, but there lies the crux of the tactics system. getting team harmony on the pitch, making sure your individual tactics mesh with the overall team approach, which is no different than real life.

[DrFager]

a lot of you here don't get the basic idea what the other people are saying which is: no, we don't want the game to be easy. no, we don't want to have a monster tactic which will win games by 5 goals on the way to undefeated treble seasons. just explain what is the difference between a 14 or a 15 notch on the slider? what is that a creative freedom of 17 will do instead of 16? how to make a winger go inside and shoot the damn ball into the goal instead of waiting for everyone else to arrive in the box

0 is low, 10 is normal, 20 is high or all out. a new player should start with those three basic settings as the backdrop for their approach. from there you move one notch forward or back based on preference. perhaps you want your AMC to be a little more attack oriented so you move the slider up one. perhaps that works, perhaps you need more and move it up another click. you have to do this with everyone to perfect your tactic both individually and team wise.

its not that there is a definitive click by click guide that 2 means this and 16 means this, its all different shades of whatever mentality you want your player to employ with 20 being mxed out 10 being normal and everything in between a mixture of the two.

i think what is overused or forgotten is that the creativity setting essentially overrides whatever instructions you give. someone might wonder why a player is not doing what they ask but then overlook that their creativity is set to much.

as for your winger issue, i had the same thing trying to use ronaldo until i really paid attention to what i was putting his settings on. maxed creativity, maxed attacking mentality, free roll, forward runs and run with the ball often, crossing rarely (or mixed), long shots often does the trick. then of course with players of his versatility you should put swap positions.

ive never had trouble getting my team to act as I want in general terms. the real work is tweaking the tactic to best suit your players rather than your idea of how they should play, and the subtle tweaks to adjust to different opponents. (again, an overlooked aspect of tactics)

[Kevchenko]

´Training ground idea sounds really good! That would put the whole tactics in new perspective.

Yeh that definitely would be a great idea. At the moment any tweaks or theories you have or want to change (after the friendlies) have to be done in games that matter.

For example, say Newcastle decided they wanted to start using the offside trap, in real life they would have change to practice this in training, however on the game we just tick the box and its as if they've been playing the offside trap forever

[djl404]

thanks for the explanations, but i knew that, i was just giving examples

as for the winger thing, i had messi with all instructions you said, free role, often rwb and fwr, high creativity and really high mentality, and still didn't have a lot of goals or assists with him, though he had a good avg.rating. thank you anyway

[DrFager]

thanks for the explanations, but i knew that, i was just giving examples

as for the winger thing, i had messi with all instructions you said, free role, often rwb and fwr, high creativity and really high mentality, and still didn't have a lot of goals or assists with him, though he had a good avg.rating. thank you anyway

but the example is poor. the difference between 15 or 17 is a subtle one and needs not be explained rigidly, nor should it be approached in that manner.

as for your winger problem perhaps the tactic isn't best suited for him. maybe he isnt getting proper service or support. maybe within your tactic his creativity is a hindrance. maybe he should play a more rigid defined role. if his match ratings are high i wouldn't be worried about him too much and would make very subtle adjustments to his stats to create your more idealized version of him.

i have no problems getting 15 goals, 15 assists with Ronaldo and having him get the majority of the man of the match awards. im not greedy, thats enough production for me!

[gugi23]

jesus,you really,i mean really need to start thinking,all of you.

This i a simulation of football,a poor one,if i might add,and it will never look like real life football,but heres the question you need to ask;howcome the A.I playes perfect football,feet to feet scores magical goals,jet no matter what you do with the sliders you cant make your players play like that?someone show me if their players play so fluently like the A.I does?

everybody is arguing abouth notches,im wonderng would they argue if S.I decided to put 1-100 sliders?

Football should be simple,idiots make it complicated!!!!!

your player either sends tough balls or doesnt,hits longshots or doesent there is no inbetween,you either attack,defend or play normal football?

and whats the point in creative freedom,isnt that a free role?

players like messi,ronaldhinho,kaka,ronaldo are free roles type of players,everybody else has other assigments and duties on the pitch,you dont see wenger giving denilson high creativity...

and when you count all the above mentioned problems,even if you mess with the sliders,your players wont do what you ask of them,cross the ball-often-yet he doesent cross,fabregas doesnt try tough balls,only the fullbacks run and cross the ball-bravo S.I!!

defenders defend deep but somehow go way up to the centre of the field,and they have thie colsing down on their own 16yds

and should i mention the "strikers" problem?

Im giving you all a friendy advice,play pes09 if you like football,and play chess if you like complicated things,i allready uninstalled this game,and im glad i didnt pay a cent for it,because its not worth a penny!

[Kevchenko]

That gugi23, was the most useless postI 've ever read. (Bar this one)

[Mike J]

I agree with the OP. The issue here isn't whether the current underlying tactics engine is good or bad, it's the fact that accessing that engine is unnecessarily abstracted. As much as I admire the effort of the TT&F writers and as much as I am impressed by the quality of their work, the very fact you need a 50-page document to undrestand the tactics is proof enough something's wrong with the user interface.

The ideas of a more graphical representation of your instructions are good ones. I particularly like the ideas about giving closing down instructions by indicating an area of the pitch to close down. For example, if I'm playing a 4-3-3 I may want my wingers to close down high up the pitch but not to drop too deep when we're defending because I want them available for a quick counter. I can't do that at the moment because the only CD instructions are a gradual increase from "own area" to "whole pitch". The option I want doesn't exist.

That's just one example to show how changing the interface doesn't have to make the game easier, as many people here have claimed. It's also more realistic, just like a better represntation of your defensive line via the chalkboard. Given that the DL slider basically indicates a position anywhere from within your own are right up to the halfway line, why can't we see exactly what effect changing it will have?

How many times have you been playing a game of FM and thought "I need my defenders to drop back to nullify those fast strikers"? Most of us, I suspect. And we all have a pretty good idea where we'd want the DL to be, yes? In that case, why can't I tell them to drop back exactly where I want instead of having to figure out whether I should drop them back by 3 notches or 4? Of course, they won't always follow your orders precisely because other factors like marking systems or closing down will alter their positions but at least we'll know the baseline we're working from.

You also have to understand that any overhaul of the slider system would go hand-in-hand with other changes to the game to make sure it remained realistic. Nobody wants a system where all you have to do is instruct your ST to "score lots" and he will, but the current degree of ambiguity and abstraction is simply unhelpful and a serious barrier to entry for many people.

[Tafse]

I couldnt agree more with the OP and Mike J in his post just above me.

Why do we need 20 different mentality settings? There are 6 different values for a defensive mentality. At most there should be only 2 options: Ultra/Very Defensive, and Defensive. There are 6 different values for an attacking mentality. Why? Do we really need to have more than two values? And the worst part is this: We have 8 [eight] different values of "normal" mentality settings to choose from. That is nonsense in my opinion. It makes the tactic options unrealistic and hard to access.

This also applies to other settings, like creative freedom and closing down.

I think there must be a way of simplifing these settings without dumbing the game down too much. In my opinion SI needs to have a serious look at this, and consider a complete rewoke of the system. Sure, some people love to fiddle around with 8 different settings for a normal mentality, "maybe I should set this mentality to 12 instead of 11, maybe that will change this game around...", however I dont think most people find that very interesting.

Yes, this is a computer game and it can never replicate real life decisions and instructions. But I cant help but think that there must be a way to make it better. I love this game, always have. I dont want it easier per se, or less realistic. If anything, I believe that a rewoke of the tactical settings actually can make the game appear more realistic and user friendly without taking the sting out of it.

[stvndysn]

Many people has stopped playing this game becouse of this, thats the problem. SI has taken a good game i.e.(CM1 to CM01/02) and destroyed it. I still think that everything except the tactics and the hated slider system is very good with this game. Thats why still bought the last version. But feel that if they gonna continue with this road there is no point of buying the game. They could at least consider making a "lite" version with everythin included except being forced to watch 90 minutes games, its really boring TBH....

let me ask you a question - away from the game are you a football fan, do you go to your favourite club and watch them play when they are at home?

if yes, then do you not sit and watch 90 minutes of football then

if no, then football manager maybe isnt your game

except in the game you are ferguson,benitez, etc, you control what happens,

as for the slider thing why not think of the sliders this way-

your midfielder are neither defensive nor attacking they are dead centre of ability (as an example your CM is 0% CD is -100 and st is +100, and you want your CM to be 50% (-50%) he would be half way between CM and CD, this is thus represented by slider

[Thunda]

Personally, I don't mind the sliders - yes, you'd like it to be more realistic, but at the moment they are the best we've got.

What I don't like it the totally over-reliance on them and the lack of any sort of feedback with what does what. I thought the Assistant Manager Feedback would of went someway to fixing this - but in truth, its pants really and I barely look at it now. Only ever tells you the same things - gap between def and mid / mid and attack .. and close this guy down ..

Part of the problem with the sliders is that too many things counter-act each other - which is fine - if the feedback was there telling this to people .. not just with individual players, but with multiple players too .. and the feedback should be there informing us .. Pros and cons of this slider setting and see it amongst the whole set of sliders.

You're also limited in scope by the sliders .. If I want to set up a tactic where I want my players banging everyball, from every angle to my 7ft targetman up front - and I mean every ball - I can't do that. The players will still pass it through midfield .. "NO - LONG BALL - TO TARGETMAN - TO HEAD" ..

As much as I don't mind the sliders - they aren't realistic and don't bring realistic results. They (and I know it is) make it too much of a game. Due to the sliders - its too many times a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors .. instead of real football.

On top of all that - the AI seems to have the "perfect set" of sliders for what it's trying to do. If it needs to go on the attack to grab a goal - it can just switch to the one it needs and then its suddenly playing like Brazil when in the first half it played like the Dog & Duck.

I tend to think its that latter fault where the main issues are with people and the sliders .. we can twiddle away for hours and if its not perfect, then we know despite us being European Champions, the bottom of the premier league team when 1-0 down are going to batter us the whole second half and you now need another perfect set of sliders to resist.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

let me ask you a question - away from the game are you a football fan, do you go to your favourite club and watch them play when they are at home?

if yes, then do you not sit and watch 90 minutes of football then

if no, then football manager maybe isnt your game

except in the game you are ferguson,benitez, etc, you control what happens,

as for the slider thing why not think of the sliders this way-

your midfielder are neither defensive nor attacking they are dead centre of ability (as an example your CM is 0% CD is -100 and st is +100, and you want your CM to be 50% (-50%) he would be half way between CM and CD, this is thus represented by slider

You completely missed the point didn't you? And maybe you have enough time on your hands to sit and watch an hour and half of football and adjust "sliders" to suit your game but normal (yes I'm calling you abnormal) people do NOT.

This is what gets me about fanboys is their blinkered views to the elite and "themselves" just is impossible to deal with. "Oh but I understood it therefore this game isn't for you cos it's too hard, I don't want my game to be so easy wahh" seriously go study a worthwhile subject and maybe you'll perhaps comprehend the word objectivity and be able to apply it to these debates... ¬_¬

Yeah irony indeed.

[treble_yell_:-)]

let me ask you a question - away from the game are you a football fan, do you go to your favourite club and watch them play when they are at home?

if yes, then do you not sit and watch 90 minutes of football then

if no, then football manager maybe isnt your game

except in the game you are ferguson,benitez, etc, you control what happens,

as for the slider thing why not think of the sliders this way-

your midfielder are neither defensive nor attacking they are dead centre of ability (as an example your CM is 0% CD is -100 and st is +100, and you want your CM to be 50% (-50%) he would be half way between CM and CD, this is thus represented by slider

If you cant see the difference between going and watching a proper match , and spending 90 mins watching a circa 1992 3d match engine in a video game........

[wwfan]

That gugi23, was the most useless postI 've ever read. (Bar this one)

It wasn't useless. It confirmed our suspicions he'd pirated the game.

[djmac174]

I'd dont see why a compromise couldn't be reached whereby there would be drop down tabs with basic instructions for positions which automatically set out what you ask for in the sliders. Then for those who want to go more in depth the slider system would still remain for them to tweak their tactics even more than the basic settings. It makes no sense to me for the positional defaults which come preloaded into the game to be totally useless and against any sort of principle which has been discovered here as working in the game.

[GavinZac]

I'd dont see why a compromise couldn't be reached whereby there would be drop down tabs with basic instructions for positions which automatically set out what you ask for in the sliders. Then for those who want to go more in depth the slider system would still remain for them to tweak their tactics even more than the basic settings. It makes no sense to me for the positional defaults which come preloaded into the game to be totally useless and against any sort of principle which has been discovered here as working in the game.

qft

Any time I set my players to a certain role using those drop downs, its a disaster, even my AM says so.

[wwfan]

I'd dont see why a compromise couldn't be reached whereby there would be drop down tabs with basic instructions for positions which automatically set out what you ask for in the sliders. Then for those who want to go more in depth the slider system would still remain for them to tweak their tactics even more than the basic settings. It makes no sense to me for the positional defaults which come preloaded into the game to be totally useless and against any sort of principle which has been discovered here as working in the game.

They only work if they don't change mentality, which they do, so it is a lottery as to whether they fit your current tactic. I expect this to be changed in future releases, or they are useless.

[!n$oMniA]

really agree with your view op; however on the other hand it would be hard not to lose the detail the game currently has.

[PhroX]

I'd dont see why a compromise couldn't be reached whereby there would be drop down tabs with basic instructions for positions which automatically set out what you ask for in the sliders. Then for those who want to go more in depth the slider system would still remain for them to tweak their tactics even more than the basic settings. It makes no sense to me for the positional defaults which come preloaded into the game to be totally useless and against any sort of principle which has been discovered here as working in the game.

I'd agree with this. As I said in my earlier posts, I’m firmly on the side of those who thinks the current system is good (albeit not perfect), but I’ve been thinking about it more, and I can sympathise with those who don’t like it.

Barring a complete re-write of the system, which is unlikely, I think the best system would be to use the positional preset instructions, albeit improved, combined with a small enhancement to the overall sliders as a “simple” tactic creator, and keep the individual sliders as an “advanced” mode. To make the best tactics, you should have to change individual player settings, but to make a good one, you should be able to get by with the preset instructions, combined with the team sliders.

The small change I mentioned with regards to the team sliders would be to make them work in conjunction with the individual ones, instead of the latter overriding them. So, if the team mentality is moved to the right, all the players will become more aggressive, but the differences between them would still remain.

On the subject of the preset instructions, I would have, maybe, 2-4 pre-made roles for each position. For example, a centre half might have “conventional central defender”, “sweeper” and “libero”, while a central midfielder might have “playmaker”, “defensive midfielder” and “box-to-box midfielder”. Ideally, the drop down menu would show the options for the position the player’s in, plus an option to look at the presets for all positions, so you can do weird things, but aren’t overwhelmed with options. These presets would have full player instructions set for that position and role (sliders, checkboxes etc). The manual should contain a brief rundown of what each one does.

So, for the “simple” tactic maker, you’d pick your formation, set a role for each player, then set your teams overall attitude with the sliders. I know this keeps some sliders, but from the point of view of controlling the whole team, I don’t think they’re that abstract. Maybe the number of “clicks” could be reduced if it’s really horrible.

Then if you want more detail to refine your tactics, you go into the individual instructions.

In all honesty, I do suspect this is how things are meant to be at the present, but it doesn’t really work. Instead of being needed only to make great tactics, the individual sliders are needed to make even decent ones.

Of course, this would require a lot of testing, and perhaps some better in game feedback, to ensure that the preset roles can make a decent tactic (maybe SI could hire wwfan to make them ), but I think it would be the most practical solution – it keeps the complexity for those who like it, adds a simpler system for those who don’t, and only requires a minor re-working (the interaction between team and individual sliders) of the engine.

[CaptainPlanet]

I would like to see more sliders. In particular a "roaming" one rather than a free-role tickbox, and "Tendency to roam" as a PPM.

Creative freedom shouldn't be linked to roaming as it is now, there should be a distinct difference.

I like the tweakability of the sliders, and it adds to the complexity element of the game, and gives the illusion of reality in the results on the pitch.

For those that want a simpler tactical view, for the casual player, you should take a look at this thread regarding pospsible difficulty modes in the future. As I feel that would benefit the fanbase.

[GavinZac]

Instead of being needed only to make great tactics, the individual sliders are needed to make even decent ones.

Sums it up, really.

[arnold_kidd]

By the way if you love FM but hate sliders, there's always FMH 2009

[Euan42]

I don't have a problem with the sliders but what i think could be useful is an additional panel perhaps to control all the sliders for that intruction. Say so that you could increase everyone's mentality by 4 after falling behind, without having to click each player's intructions. you would keep the same balance but make a big difference to the way you team is playing without taking 10 mins to do it? Slightly off topic i know....