Will my team be able to pass their way to world domination?

[yonko]

5 hours ago, Djuicer said:

This and more are really good thoughts! using dual playmakers vs strong op. is clever. My concern would be familarity? would this thinkering not screw that up? or do you have the midfield combos as your three tactics?

I don't have problem with tactics familiarity because I have loaded 3 tactics with different midfield role combinations, which I use more frequently. One of the tactics also has False 9 instead of Trequartista and IW-S at AMR instead of IF-S. I also have some subtle differences in Team Instructions. One of the tactics is also Strikerless with AMC in Attack Duty.

Basically Tactic 1 is my usual tactic. Tactic 2 is more Attacking version. Tactic 3 is more possession obsession tactic. I don't suffer much of familiarity drop, but even if I do, I don't mind it that much. 

[daveb653]

I'm really liking how people are using individual player mentalities in his thread, its something I noticed a little while ago and whilst I didn't pay too much attention I made sure my entire team wasn't to reserved or gung-ho.

Now onto my question........ Do you, the experts tend to have a set number of each mentality? As in how d you guys balance it?

I've been playing around with different roles, instructions etc and team mentalities, to work in different player mentalities. Im thinking without one or two at least attacking mentalities you wont have enough attacking intent? But what about cautious/def and very def?

Im thinking if you have many def/ very def duties your going to see alot of backwards passes and hesitant football, but do you actually need any at all? I mean I don't want my team full of very attacking mentalities but if your players are making good progress up the pitch then your v.def mentality player decides to play it back to our keeper your back at square 1???

My thought would be 1 or 2 very attacking duties to give you penetration then possibly upto 4 pos depending on how aggressive you want to be , the rest balanced to give a good mix of risk without leaving yourself open to a counter?

[Djuicer]

1 hour ago, daveb653 said:

I'm really liking how people are using individual player mentalities in his thread, its something I noticed a little while ago and whilst I didn't pay too much attention I made sure my entire team wasn't to reserved or gung-ho.

Now onto my question........ Do you, the experts tend to have a set number of each mentality? As in how d you guys balance it?

I've been playing around with different roles, instructions etc and team mentalities, to work in different player mentalities. Im thinking without one or two at least attacking mentalities you wont have enough attacking intent? But what about cautious/def and very def?

Im thinking if you have many def/ very def duties your going to see alot of backwards passes and hesitant football, but do you actually need any at all? I mean I don't want my team full of very attacking mentalities but if your players are making good progress up the pitch then your v.def mentality player decides to play it back to our keeper your back at square 1???

My thought would be 1 or 2 very attacking duties to give you penetration then possibly upto 4 pos depending on how aggressive you want to be , the rest balanced to give a good mix of risk without leaving yourself open to a counter?

My two cents is that its dependable on what you want to achive, but Im far from an expert on mentality. 

In my experience, more extreme mentalites tend to make your team be more "structured" as there is more clear roles. If you instead keep most mentalites around balanced with some outliers there will be much more fluid play with more players switching positions and share burdens. Its all really depending on what you want to achive.

 

As a general more than 4 attacking duties will make you more open to counters but thats no supprise I suppose.

 

Both can work to create possession or more direct football.

[daveb653]

12 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

My two cents is that its dependable on what you want to achive, but Im far from an expert on mentality. 

In my experience, more extreme mentalites tend to make your team be more "structured" as there is more clear roles. If you instead keep most mentalites around balanced with some outliers there will be much more fluid play with more players switching positions and share burdens. Its all really depending on what you want to achive.

 

As a general more than 4 attacking duties will make you more open to counters but thats no supprise I suppose.

 

Both can work to create possession or more direct football.

Totally agree @Djuicer I'm not an expert at all, I've been messing around with team mentality, cautious through to attacking. I found as you said, at either end your structure becomes structured. However, when on balanced I struggled to achieve much attacking intent, right enough the other team didn't create much either, currently i'm experimenting with an attacking mentality. I have a cautious one to try, i'm using the same formation for all 3 attacking, cautious and balanced just experimenting to see how they play. I'm trying to get an even-ish spread thoughout the player mentalities.

[DimitrisLar]

6 hours ago, fumaca09 said:

Another question for you all.

Team width.

I see a lot of people set a Pep team to narrow and plat through the middle.

However, Cruyff and Guardiola both have talked about using maximum width of the pitch.

Thierry Henry spoke to Pep dropping him because he wouldn't stay on the touchline.

Sane had chalk on his boots from hugging the touchline.

Would maximum width with IW create this effect ?

probably standard attacking width might be very good but what is said about width from pep or johan is using it. In game setting narrow or wide attacking width not only has to do with distances between the players but inticates where your team is obligated to search for its build up. If you choose narrow, fairly narrow, very narrow its from the middle and on the opposite stands for wide built up. I play all the time with narrow but i always have an option to stretch the defense and exactly thats why i cant see tactics with IWs+IWBs, its gets on my nerves. I know that with the overlapp instruction the IWB will add width to his game but i'm like WTF is this?

[Guest]

I am trialliag a Hybrid version of the OP system and Dimitris in my Madeira save and the early results are quite stunning. Defensively it's very solid.

[DimitrisLar]

pardon me, some mistakes i made through enthusiasm talking about total football + manager

1. 4 front except IF(a) have roam from position (and of course the cwb)

2. in the tactic i posted i think was against inter and didnt have the overlap on the right. after 2-0 down more instructions went off too huh!

3. a better version of the movement in this video

 

 

5 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I am trialliag a Hybrid version of the OP system and Dimitris in my Madeira save and the early results are quite stunning. Defensively it's very solid.

don't you love the way they intercept the ball? I'm crazy with that, absolutely love it.

BTW and to keep talking about TOTALFOETEBOL i'm having a little chat on @crusadertsar topic, about how the diamond works with full technical players in the MC strata only by using the 4-3-3 formation. Probably you have seen this video of Cruyff explaining why he wont play a 4-2-3-1 to accomodate a world class striker in his team and instead turn to 3-4-3. That affects the quality of players that can be paired in midfield duo in front of the dm/dlp/hb cause they are obligated to track wingers back, so players like seedorf/davids make more sense than putting iniestas there. 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

pardon me, some mistakes i made through enthusiasm talking about total football + manager

1. 4 front except IF(a) have roam from position (and of course the cwb)

2. in the tactic i posted i think was against inter and didnt have the overlap on the right. after 2-0 down more instructions went off too huh!

3. a better version of the movement in this video

 

 

don't you love the way they intercept the ball? I'm crazy with that, absolutely love it.

BTW and to keep talking about TOTALFOETEBOL i'm having a little chat on @crusadertsar topic, about how the diamond works with full technical players in the MC strata only by using the 4-3-3 formation. Probably you have seen this video of Cruyff explaining why he wont play a 4-2-3-1 to accomodate a world class striker in his team and instead turn to 3-4-3. That affects the quality of players that can be paired in midfield duo in front of the dm/dlp/hb cause they are obligated to track wingers back, so players like seedorf/davids make more sense than putting iniestas there. 

 

That's a great goal, patient and then incisive.  What stood out from your system from the start is that players maximise the width as well, they aren't all bunched on top of each other and I guess with your wider PIs on the wide players and CB's helps there.

Defensively I conceded one shot in my first three friendlies. I qualified for Europe which has allowed me to attract some better players on loan and the early league and European results are quite stunning including a 4-1 thrashing of Bestikas with their only chance coming from Harvey Elliot tracking back nicely to help, tackling then deciding to make a ridiculous across the box pass which they intercepted and scored from. 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Crazy_Ivan

[Luizinho]

On 29/04/2020 at 15:02, Djuicer said:

So this is the midfield trio:

 

This is a really good thread and I had a few of questions regarding this midfield set-up If I may:

The RPM is a very specialist role and my understanding is that only the most complete players are able to fully perform the role. As it requires a full blend of Technical, Mental and Physical attributes. With that said, if you're lacking a players with such attributes, how would get round that? I also don't see the Xavi as a complete midfielder either, which is also confuses me how a lot people see him as a RPM.

I'm also thinking if you wanted to blood a youngster in one game (maybe of the bench) and needed to replace that position. Quite a big role for a youngster to play?

Do you ever find that the RPM is stifled against some opponents (maybe against a narrow diamond) or against a formidable opposite man? Do you have any work arounds?

[Djuicer]

18 minutes ago, Luizinho said:

This is a really good thread and I had a few of questions regarding this midfield set-up If I may:

The RPM is a very specialist role and my understanding is that only the most complete players are able to fully perform the role. As it requires a full blend of Technical, Mental and Physical attributes. With that said, if you're lacking a players with such attributes, how would get round that? I also don't see the Xavi as a complete midfielder either, which is also confuses me how a lot people see him as a RPM.

I'm also thinking if you wanted to blood a youngster in one game (maybe of the bench) and needed to replace that position. Quite a big role for a youngster to play?

Do you ever find that the RPM is stifled against some opponents (maybe against a narrow diamond) or against a formidable opposite man? Do you have any work arounds?

Its not a carbon copy of any team. I would say Xavi was a DLP IRL but also Im not sure he was that static as the role can be in the game. Honestly for me, Xavi's role does not exist in FM.

If a player is not physical enough I change the role to AP, or versus really good team sometimes DLP (not often). But most of the time RPM is sufficient. As I explained in the second post (the one where you find the picture) I like that the RPM is very involved in all phases of play. I also like that he takes up positions in and around the half-space. I would say that RPM is one of the harder playmakers to mark out of a game due to the roam from position.

13 hours ago, daveb653 said:

Totally agree @Djuicer I'm not an expert at all, I've been messing around with team mentality, cautious through to attacking. I found as you said, at either end your structure becomes structured. However, when on balanced I struggled to achieve much attacking intent, right enough the other team didn't create much either, currently i'm experimenting with an attacking mentality. I have a cautious one to try, i'm using the same formation for all 3 attacking, cautious and balanced just experimenting to see how they play. I'm trying to get an even-ish spread thoughout the player mentalities.

If you want to still be attacking on lower team mentalites you will have to balance that out with more support and attacking duties  

 

Rough roles and thoughts about this..

VA for team does not need any attacking duty

AT for team might need 1-2 at duties

POS for team might need 1-4 at duties

BAL 2-4

CAU 2-5

and so on..

Edited May 5, 2020 by Djuicer

[DiStru_]

First of all, thanks for a fantastic thread!

Very interesting to read your reasoning for your tactical and player choices.

16 hours ago, daveb653 said:

Now onto my question........ Do you, the experts tend to have a set number of each mentality? As in how d you guys balance it?

This is also something I'd like to know more about. I found these tips especially interesting:

On 02/05/2020 at 20:18, Djuicer said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!
Have some great ideas regarding playmakers, structure and spacing.

1. My playmaker should have a positive mentality; most commonly in the 10-12 range but I'll go up to around 15.
 -I hate having a cautious playmaker playing backwards and sideways passes.
2. My holding midfielder should have the same mentality as my centre backs for defensive compactness.
3. My playmaker should ideally be my deepest midfielder, optimising passing options ahead of him.
#3 is italic as it's most negotiable.
Sometimes meeting #1 and #2 means I have to play a holding midfielder behind my playmaker (in more Structured systems).

This is my personal understanding of individual mentalities, please feel free to expand on it or correct me if I'm wrong:

Possession systems:

- Individual mentalities close together (e.g. plenty of Support duties), which means players will be positioned close to each other and play with similar amount of risk taking. This enables good short passing options.

- Compact Line of Engagement and Defensive Line (e.g. Higher LoE+Much Higher D-Line), which not only makes press more effective, but also ensures your players start their attacking transitions positioned close to each other.

Direct systems:

- Individual mentalities more clearly defined (e.g. Very Attacking strikers, Positive/Balanced midfield, Defensive/Very Defensive defence), which means players will be positioned further apart. This enables faster attacking transitions.

- Looser Line of Engagement and Defensive Line (e.g. Higher LoE+Standard D-Line), which ensures your advanced players stay positioned higher up the pitch, ready to accept a direct pass once the possession is won.

Does this make sense?

Edited May 5, 2020 by DiStru_
Grammar

[daveb653]

1 hour ago, Djuicer said:

Its not a carbon copy of any team. I would say Xavi was a DLP IRL but also Im not sure he was that static as the role can be in the game. Honestly for me, Xavi's role does not exist in FM.

If a player is not physical enough I change the role to AP, or versus really good team sometimes DLP (not often). But most of the time RPM is sufficient. As I explained in the second post (the one where you find the picture) I like that the RPM is very involved in all phases of play. I also like that he takes up positions in and around the half-space. I would say that RPM is one of the harder playmakers to mark out of a game due to the roam from position.

If you want to still be attacking on lower team mentalites you will have to balance that out with more support and attacking duties  

 

Rough roles and thoughts about this..

VA for team does not need any attacking duty

AT for team might need 1-2 at duties

POS for team might need 1-4 at duties

BAL 2-4

CAU 2-5

and so on..

Yeah this is what I thought, the more defensive your team mentality is, the more attack duties you need to actually move play forwards, I guess its kind of the same the more attacking mentality you go you dont need as many attacking mentalities as your team is already thinking "forwards first". hmmmm got me thinking hehe

[Jrddrkly]

3 minutes ago, DiStru_ said:

First of all, thanks for a fantastic thread!

Very interesting to read your reasoning for your tactical and player choices.

This is also something I'd like to know more about. I found these tips especially interesting:

This is my personal understanding of individual mentalities, please feel free to expand on it or correct me if I'm wrong:

Possession systems:

- Individual mentalities close together (e.g. plenty of Support duties), which means players will be positioned close to each other and play with similar amount of risk taking. This enables good short passing options.

- Compact Line of Engagement and Defensive Line (e.g. Higher LoE+Much Higher D-Line), which not only makes press more effective, but also ensures your players start their attacking transitions positioned close to each other.

Direct systems:

- Individual mentalities more clearly defined (e.g. Very Attacking strikers, Positive/Balanced midfield, Defensive/Very Defensive defence), which means players will be positioned further apart. This enables faster attacking transitions.

- Looser Line of Engagement and Defensive Line (e.g. Higher LoE+Standard D-Line), which ensures your advanced players stay positioned higher up the pitch, ready to accept a direct pass once the possession is won.

Does this make sense?

Makes sense to me, my view on the more direct systems would be dependant on what kind of directness you're wanting. Say if you wanted a longball kind of style ala Tony Pulis you would want the high LoE so that your big striker is closer to the box where as if you are wanting a more burst in behind kind of direct system, ie 2015/16 Leicester, then you would want a Lower LoE for your pacier players to break into behind the defense, I suppose I'm going the long winded way of saying everything is relative? I may be wrong though I don't claim to know for certain

[daveb653]

7 minutes ago, DiStru_ said:

First of all, thanks for a fantastic thread!

Very interesting to read your reasoning for your tactical and player choices.

This is also something I'd like to know more about. I found these tips especially interesting:

This is my personal understanding of individual mentalities, please feel free to expand on it or correct me if I'm wrong:

Possession systems:

- Individual mentalities close together (e.g. plenty of Support duties), which means players will be positioned close to each other and play with similar amount of risk taking. This enables good short passing options.

- Compact Line of Engagement and Defensive Line (e.g. Higher LoE+Much Higher D-Line), which not only makes press more effective, but also ensures your players start their attacking transitions positioned close to each other.

Direct systems:

- Individual mentalities more clearly defined (e.g. Very Attacking strikers, Positive/Balanced midfield, Defensive/Very Defensive defence), which means players will be positioned further apart. This enables faster attacking transitions.

- Looser Line of Engagement and Defensive Line (e.g. Higher LoE+Standard D-Line), which ensures your advanced players stay positioned higher up the pitch, ready to accept a direct pass once the possession is won.

Does this make sense?

This is exactly what I'm trying to figure out as well, I would say what you're saying makes complete sense, but when you add the team mentality to this is where I get confused.  

[Luizinho]

18 minutes ago, Jrddrkly said:

Say if you wanted a longball kind of style ala Tony Pulis you would want the high LoE so that your big striker is closer to the box where as if you are wanting a more burst in behind kind of direct system, ie 2015/16 Leicester, then you would want a Lower LoE for your pacier players to break into behind the defense, I suppose I'm going the long winded way of saying everything is relative?

I’m not an expert on the Tony Pauli’s style of football; but your spot on with your thinking here.

[Jrddrkly]

3 minutes ago, Luizinho said:

I’m not an expert on the Tony Pauli’s style of football; but your spot on with your thinking here.

You really aren't missing anything worthwhile there pal. The way I see it is using you LoE and passing directness to actually dictate where you want your team to play. So going back to the example I used earlier of Leicester if you had a low LoE and More Direct Passing that would tell your team that you want them to burst in behind the defense (I know theres more needed that that but its a start) where as if you have a High LoE and Shorter Passing you're saying to your team to pass it around in front of the defense.

[DimitrisLar]

@Djuicer how much do you value having both feet at good ratings helps? probably in every system and situation its a bonus but it might be a hell of a help in possession styles.

[Djuicer]

7 hours ago, DiStru_ said:

Possession systems:

- Individual mentalities close together (e.g. plenty of Support duties), which means players will be positioned close to each other and play with similar amount of risk taking. This enables good short passing options.

- Compact Line of Engagement and Defensive Line (e.g. Higher LoE+Much Higher D-Line), which not only makes press more effective, but also ensures your players start their attacking transitions positioned close to each other.

Direct systems:

- Individual mentalities more clearly defined (e.g. Very Attacking strikers, Positive/Balanced midfield, Defensive/Very Defensive defence), which means players will be positioned further apart. This enables faster attacking transitions.

- Looser Line of Engagement and Defensive Line (e.g. Higher LoE+Standard D-Line), which ensures your advanced players stay positioned higher up the pitch, ready to accept a direct pass once the possession is won.

Does this make sense?

Regarding the LOE and DEF line I say it makes sense.

I do think the mentalities are preferable that way but I think you can still play possession football with bigger diffrences between mentalities (more structure). Its just that its harder and will probably not look as fluent. Hence I think the same way regarding direct football but reverse, think of maybe some german teams IRL Lepzig under Nagelsmann, Hofenheim when he was there.. more direct football but still quite fluid and ofcourse parts of more possession play as well. Even though it demands more of the players (read you will need better players).

7 hours ago, daveb653 said:

Yeah this is what I thought, the more defensive your team mentality is, the more attack duties you need to actually move play forwards, I guess its kind of the same the more attacking mentality you go you dont need as many attacking mentalities as your team is already thinking "forwards first". hmmmm got me thinking hehe

I would say that is how I look at it.

Even if its always dependent on intentions and players at disposal. Makes no sense to have more attacking players if you just want to keep it 0-0 or get a set piece in early and sit deep and maybe hit on counters.

7 hours ago, Jrddrkly said:

Makes sense to me, my view on the more direct systems would be dependant on what kind of directness you're wanting. Say if you wanted a longball kind of style ala Tony Pulis you would want the high LoE so that your big striker is closer to the box where as if you are wanting a more burst in behind kind of direct system, ie 2015/16 Leicester, then you would want a Lower LoE for your pacier players to break into behind the defense, I suppose I'm going the long winded way of saying everything is relative? I may be wrong though I don't claim to know for certain

I agree, although its important in all styles to not get players too isolated either. Pulis I think is maybe lower LOE and DLine on balanced mentality. On more negative ones I would not change it from what is the standard (the standard varies with mentalities).

7 hours ago, daveb653 said:

This is exactly what I'm trying to figure out as well, I would say what you're saying makes complete sense, but when you add the team mentality to this is where I get confused.  

Which parts about team mentality does confuse you? the knock-on effects? 

2 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

@Djuicer how much do you value having both feet at good ratings helps? probably in every system and situation its a bonus but it might be a hell of a help in possession styles.

Yeah, its most def. a bonus. I value it but not that much.

If two players where identical except one is one footer with say (a striker) 17 finishing and one is two footed with 15. Then I would go for the one with two foots. With similar players I go for first personality, then maybe PPMs and after that I would use the prefered foot maybe.

 

I think position is important in the valuation of it. On wings I care less, more central roles I do think its more important.

[daveb653]

@Djuicer just how changing the mentality changes the style of play so much, or how each mentality can represent a teams style of football differently but achieve the same game play style (if that makes sense) For example, how would you personally set-up a system that stayed solid at the back, not to worried about possession, but as soon as the opposition strayed into a dangerous area with the ball (I'll let you decide where that is) you hound them, win the ball back and hit them where they've left spaces, but not long ball?

For me I'd intuitively pick a more defensively minded system and this is where I think most peoples problems lie, after all im not looking to dominate possession, im looking to negate the opposition until hey make an error or start to get within dangerous shooting/through ball range, then hit them where they've left space, thats defensive for me?

But now, I'm slowly starting to realise that if your too defensive your players just wont want to commit, so now what do you do?

 

That in essence is my issue  

[Djuicer]

9 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

@Djuicer just how changing the mentality changes the style of play so much, or how each mentality can represent a teams style of football differently but achieve the same game play style (if that makes sense) For example, how would you personally set-up a system that stayed solid at the back, not to worried about possession, but as soon as the opposition strayed into a dangerous area with the ball (I'll let you decide where that is) you hound them, win the ball back and hit them where they've left spaces, but not long ball?

For me I'd intuitively pick a more defensively minded system and this is where I think most peoples problems lie, after all im not looking to dominate possession, im looking to negate the opposition until hey make an error or start to get within dangerous shooting/through ball range, then hit them where they've left space, thats defensive for me?

But now, I'm slowly starting to realise that if your too defensive your players just wont want to commit, so now what do you do?

 

That in essence is my issue  

I for starters never start with anything more  defensive than CAUTIOUS, and often I stay with balanced from the beggining.

I would do something like 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1. Four at the back probably atleast. Maybe something with 3 cbs and 2 wbs.

Balanced

Higher tempo. 

Maybe pass into space if we have pace (Leicester style).

Play for set pieces if we are tall and strong (Burnley).

Counter (If i get roles and duties right this won't be needed, but for starters)

lower  LOE (1 notch) and DLINE.  More urgent pressing, or standard. Pending on players attributes and level of my team.

 

I would probably have one regular winger and one striker with holds up the ball (PFs, DLFs/a, CFs/a).

There is where I would have started, and looked how it seems in the ME. What would you have started out with?

Edited May 5, 2020 by Djuicer

[daveb653]

10 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

I for starters never start with anything more  defensive than CAUTIOUS, and often I stay with balanced from the beggining.

I would do something like 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1. Four at the back probably atleast. Maybe something with 3 cbs and 2 wbs.

Balanced

Higher tempo. 

Maybe pass into space if we have pace (Leicester style).

Play for set pieces if we are tall and strong (Burnley).

Counter

lower  LOE (1 notch) and DLINE.  More urgent pressing.

 

I would probably have one regular winger and one striker with holds up the ball (PFs, DLFs/a, CFs/a).

There is where I would have started, and looked how it seems in the ME. What would you have started out with?

Well before reading here and another thread 

 

I would have probably gone for a cautious mentality (as you said defensive is too much, I recognised that at least)  

Then would have had play into space, slightly more or more direct passing, higher tempo then I would admittedly probably have set my def line and LOE too low.

But then I would have probably chosen the wrong roles, its a viscous circle (said in scottish accent, aka austin powers). I can create nice to watch football that ultimately, leaves me open to counters, i either demolish teams or i have no finger nails left, or i defend for my life for 90 mins  

 

[Djuicer]

I will just drop this here..older names for mentalities, theories still correct to my knowledge. Taken from @THOGs excellent lines and diamonds

 

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Djuicer

[Zemahh]

46 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

cant remember who made this, if any one knows please tell me.

Lines and Diamonds: The Tactician's Handbook for Football Manager 2015

[daveb653]

excellent, thanks. So more defensive mean longer more direct passes from ANY duty with defend? regardless of where on the pitch it is? And vice versa, so a wingback (A) fir example would still default to shorter passing on more defensive mentalities?

[Djuicer]

10 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

excellent, thanks. So more defensive mean longer more direct passes from ANY duty with defend? regardless of where on the pitch it is? And vice versa, so a wingback (A) fir example would still default to shorter passing on more defensive mentalities?

If this is still valid thats how I understand it.

Attacking duty on lets say defensive team mentality (due to it still being in the game and have the same position in the TC) will use much shorter passing. 
 

Defensive duty will use much more direct.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Djuicer

[daveb653]

@Djuicer ok, makes sense, but then you're def duty wont really support any counters? This is one of my issues, getting the right support and balance in a tactic.

 

Ive been looking at this: 

Its been pretty helpful, for me at least. Not sure if the numbers would change for changing mentality , but still helps me get my initial set-up fairly well balanced.

[Djuicer]

@daveb653

They do, but they consider it carefully before doing so. A tactic with only defend duties won't work as a counter tactic.

[daveb653]

@Djuicer yea exactly, thats where I get issues, is getting that fine balance between hitting teams on the break or sitting back (in a counter tactic) an attacking without over committing (in an attacking tactic). 

I kind of just stumble on set-ups that work, rather than be able to logically figure it out  

[Djuicer]

Try with balanced team mentality. 0 TIs

4 Defenders on defend.

4 Midfielders on support.

2 attackers on attack.

Play 1-2 games on comprehensive highlights.

 

Switch around some duties. 

3D in defence with a attack.

3S in midfield with one defensive.

1A in attack and one support.

Once again play 1-2 games on comprehensive. What do you see, did this have any effects?

Edited May 6, 2020 by Djuicer

[retrodude09]

@Djuicer - how did you find your Trequartista was doing? Was he involved in the game? I understand it's to do with the ME but I'm wondering if there's a role that could perhaps be more involved. Maybe a DLF or a F9 but I still want him to be a goal threat.

[Djuicer]

19 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

@Djuicer - how did you find your Trequartista was doing? Was he involved in the game? I understand it's to do with the ME but I'm wondering if there's a role that could perhaps be more involved. Maybe a DLF or a F9 but I still want him to be a goal threat.

I like the TRQ a lot. Sometimes he won't be in the box when needed but thats just what its cost to have him participate in so many more parts of the game. He creates with the ball, comes deep, moves into channels, combine with others.

Martinez is at 20 goals and 4 assists in 29 starts.

Jovic has 7+2 in 13 starts.

Noteworthy is that they do play as F9 in the away tactic, and that they sometimes are fielded on the wings (primarly as IWFs).

I do think they all can score a sufficent amount of goals, maybe not as much as an AF or Poacher but they participate so much more in buildup etc. To me thats worth them having a few lesser goals in their own account but a lot more in others.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Djuicer

[Britrock]

On 05/05/2020 at 08:45, Luizinho said:

This is a really good thread and I had a few of questions regarding this midfield set-up If I may:

The RPM is a very specialist role and my understanding is that only the most complete players are able to fully perform the role. As it requires a full blend of Technical, Mental and Physical attributes. With that said, if you're lacking a players with such attributes, how would get round that? I also don't see the Xavi as a complete midfielder either, which is also confuses me how a lot people see him as a RPM.

I'm also thinking if you wanted to blood a youngster in one game (maybe of the bench) and needed to replace that position. Quite a big role for a youngster to play?

Do you ever find that the RPM is stifled against some opponents (maybe against a narrow diamond) or against a formidable opposite man? Do you have any work arounds?

I've had great success with the RPM without using players that are Xavi level great. I've used it in the top leagues of Uruguay, China and South Africa with great success - e.g. players averaging well over 7.50 for the whole season. It's my go to playmaker now, I find the DLP is too static and the AP isn't involved enough, the RPM has the right mix of settings that means they're always involved in things even when the player isn't a natural or the most technically proficient for the role.

[Guest]

So I have set things up the same on my Hertha save as I did on my Madeira save and I am lucky if quite often I break 50% possession. This despite being the most dominant team in the league.

[Djuicer]

Against teams that plays versus us Im often racking up between 55 and 65 %. I think its the anti teams that ruins the stat. TBH passes completed is a better tool to use in the game (I talk about this a bit more in the latest post in this thread). 

@Crazy_Ivan

Edited May 7, 2020 by Djuicer

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Against teams that plays versus us Im often racking up between 55 and 65 %. I think its the anti teams that ruins the stat. TBH passes completed is a better tool to use in the game (I talk about this a bit more in the latest post in this thread). 

@Crazy_Ivan

Yup I caught that in your original results post and it's the same here. Just interesting to note tbh

[Djuicer]

15 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Yup I caught that in your original results post and it's the same here. Just interesting to note tbh

Quite sad though if you compare to IRL. City would not have to fight for 50 % vs teams that park the bus. Too easy for them in the game to just pass between central defenders, even if max loe + prevent short gk distribution mitigates some of this behaviour 

[zyfon5]

29 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Quite sad though if you compare to IRL. City would not have to fight for 50 % vs teams that park the bus. Too easy for them in the game to just pass between central defenders, even if max loe + prevent short gk distribution mitigates some of this behaviour 

Try do max pressing intensity if teams start doing this very defensive act. U can even put the CB on always press in players instructions. They eventually will give the ball away. For single striker system it is hard to win the ball against two CB when u have prevent short gk distribution bcz u are outnumbered at that area of the pitch. Sometimes it is better to let the CB have the ball and give it away.

[Djuicer]

22 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

Try do max pressing intensity if teams start doing this very defensive act. U can even put the CB on always press in players instructions. They eventually will give the ball away. For single striker system it is hard to win the ball against two CB when u have prevent short gk distribution bcz u are outnumbered at that area of the pitch. Sometimes it is better to let the CB have the ball and give it away.

I do that. Even though the TRQ obv. won't do it much or at all.

 

[zyfon5]

10 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

I do that. Even though the TRQ obv. won't do it much or at all.

 

Haha I guess u know what is the problem there.  

[Guest]

It's taken some tinkering but I have finally got my team doing this the way I want to with some lovely interplay maximizing all those passing triangles we have when we have the ball. That central triangle in perfect use in my last game where we finally unlocked a very stubborn Stuttgart team.

 

[Djuicer]

WOW, thats a nice goal @Crazy_Ivan. Really patient and composed until the right moment comes along and then finish it off with a neat combination.

 

Avg.Pos is beautiful too.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Djuicer

[yonko]

54 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

It's taken some tinkering but I have finally got my team doing this the way I want to with some lovely interplay maximizing all those passing triangles we have when we have the ball. That central triangle in perfect use in my last game where we finally unlocked a very stubborn Stuttgart team.

 

Beautiful! What is your set up like?

[DimitrisLar]

2 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

It's taken some tinkering but I have finally got my team doing this the way I want to with some lovely interplay maximizing all those passing triangles we have when we have the ball. That central triangle in perfect use in my last game where we finally unlocked a very stubborn Stuttgart team.

 

exceptional play m8! whats the role of your right cm?

[Djuicer]

Short update: Crashed and burned in the FA Cup semi final

Got Carabao and Communty shield trophys.

Throneing the league. Have a ticket for the CL final.

 

The board just gave me another £190M to spend. Save it or go for Mbappe or De Jong?

Edited May 8, 2020 by Djuicer

[DimitrisLar]

52 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Short update: Crashed and burned in the FA Cup semi final

Got Carabao and Communty shield trophys.

Throneing the league. Have a ticket for the CL final.

 

The board just gave me another £190M to spend. Save it or go for Mbappe or De Jong?

great!

go for Harvey Elliot! xD

[Djuicer]

Just now, DimitrisLar said:

great!

go for Harvey Elliot! xD

He is good, but..

He was on an upwards trajectory and then signed for Arsenal. Now he's done his cruciate ligaments. Bye bye career.

Sancho is an option though. Currently at Liverpool. EXTREMLY good. I would weaken them and grow my own strength if I got him.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, yonko said:

Beautiful! What is your set up like?

I am doing some more testing and then will happily share. The roles in the middle are very similar to one of yours actually but the TI's and PI's are somewhat different. Rashidi recently did a Bielsa setup on YouTube and that is the inspiration for it so you can imagine the tempo is higher whilst passing is shorter. The player you see making the through ball is my primary creator but he is set up as a CM on attack with his PIs and traits set up to be that kind of engache player.  One other major change is I stick to Rashidis default closing and use the split-block system he has in place on his Bielsa system and I find that works better for my team. 

I have actually turned off the in game possession stats. I found myself getting too obsessed with possession and some games I am racking up 72% possession and others it's 49% and I will focus on that half empty 49% when I can fully see in the action zone that we are dominating the other team. 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

exceptional play m8! whats the role of your right cm?

He is a DLP on support but it's the spot I am most concerned about and I am keeping a close eye on it. I don't want to entirely stifle him but I am also worried about his passing stats and you can see this isn't very helpful when done too often. Ordinarily I wouldn't mind too much but that was with a low number of passes.

As I typed this I am keeping any eye on my friendly match and spot this. This is what I mean and need to tweak. DLP(15 in this case) receives the ball, the primary creator(8 in this case) is wide open with a stretched defence and a big overload on the left and he decides to ping it to that overload but manages to actually find the only defender out there. We still end up scoring through the sheer numbers of players around that defender who manage to wrestle the ball off him and score but the obvious play is 15 to 8 to then move forward draw that defender and slip the ball through to the waiting overload.

Obviously because he is a DLP and my actual creator is a CM the DLP thinks he is the primary creator so just bypassed him so that's what I need to figure out.

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Crazy_Ivan

[skyline72]

9 hours ago, Djuicer said:

He is good, but..

He was on an upwards trajectory and then signed for Arsenal. Now he's done his cruciate ligaments. Bye bye career.

Sancho is an option though. Currently at Liverpool. EXTREMLY good. I would weaken them and grow my own strength if I got him.

Destroy Liverpool! 

[DimitrisLar]

2 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

He is a DLP on support but it's the spot I am most concerned about and I am keeping a close eye on it. I don't want to entirely stifle him but I am also worried about his passing stats and you can see this isn't very helpful when done too often. Ordinarily I wouldn't mind too much but that was with a low number of passes.

As I typed this I am keeping any eye on my friendly match and spot this. This is what I mean and need to tweak. DLP(15 in this case) receives the ball, the primary creator(8 in this case) is wide open with a stretched defence and a big overload on the left and he decides to ping it to that overload but manages to actually find the only defender out there. We still end up scoring through the sheer numbers of players around that defender who manage to wrestle the ball off him and score but the obvious play is 15 to 8 to then move forward draw that defender and slip the ball through to the waiting overload.

Obviously because he is a DLP and my actual creator is a CM the DLP thinks he is the primary creator so just bypassed him so that's what I need to figure out.

 

thats exactly a dlp(s) that i saw but i needed to ask. my observation was mainly cause in build up for the goal it seemed your central players to make more of a box than a diamond. i liked the way your f9 (or treq) was more creative and roaming than mine and im searching on that.