FM19 Tactical Changes

[Cleon]

20 minutes ago, kpsia518 said:

 

i think SI should hide it or keep booming by this question.

from movie :"its only the begining..."

& you know other ppl will keep asking.

 

its not just me,for me i will get answer myself.

You have the answer. It's just a label now in FM19 and nothing more than that.

[Rashidi]

7 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Far be it from me to join the OP in mutilating an equine corpse, but the responses do raise an interesting issue. I get the impression from the more experienced tacticians that support duties have an inherent advantage in general over attack and defence. Why would it be foolish to set too many support duties?

Actually no not really, My best systems at the moment are actually a decent mix of defend support and attack duties. Having too many support duties could unbalance you at certain times. So its all about getting the balance right. 

[phnompenhandy]

Just now, Rashidi said:

Actually no not really, My best systems at the moment are actually a decent mix of defend support and attack duties. Having too many support duties could unbalance you at certain times. So its all about getting the balance right. 

Right, so could you elucidate that, by noting my thoughts in the previous post? Cheers

[kpsia518]

4 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

It would be if it was founded on some sense  and thats a good explanation...

But seems as its just an arbitrary calculation looking primarily at duties, it isnt even a useful guide for babys

it isnt even a useful guide for babys.

yes, i agree with that.

& i can use that Team Fluidity as guide line.
some thing like,i want very very very structure game play.
but i don't know what role should i use,i don't know what duty should i give.

so i can do some test in Team Fluidity label.

[NabsKebabs]

4 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Well there's a little bit of Key Stage 2 level rocket science. On support duty isn't a player going to defend going to defend when out of possession and attack when in possession? There might be a difference in their reaction during transitions, but is it not generally safer to hedge by using support duties in most positions other than the ones where you can't such as poacher or centre back?

Well if you're team is very slow and has low work rate and determination, why would you want heaps of support duties? 

If you want to create a pure counter attacking system, you're not going to want heaps of support duties either. Contrary to Cleon's counterattacking guide. You're going to want more guys focused on exploiting space (attack duty) and more guys focused just on defending (defend duty).

Edited October 26, 2018 by NabsKebabs

[kpsia518]

2 minutes ago, Cleon said:

You have the answer. It's just a label now in FM19 and nothing more than that.

label = guide for baby.

if you know football,you didn't need lebel.

but for baby,maybe

 

[phnompenhandy]

Just now, kpsia518 said:

very very very structure game play

Isn't that just NO support duties?

[phnompenhandy]

1 minute ago, NabsKebabs said:

Well if you're team is very slow and has low work rate and determination, why would you want heaps of support duties? 

If you want to create a pure counter attacking system, you're not going to want heaps of support duties either. Contrary to Cleon's counterattacking guide. You're going to want more guys focused on exploiting space (attack duty) and more guys focused just on defending (defend duty).

Really? Okay, that's interesting because for me Counter-Attack means defend defend defend - boom! Attack. Sounds like Support duties, no?

[NabsKebabs]

4 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Actually no not really, My best systems at the moment are actually a decent mix of defend support and attack duties. Having too many support duties could unbalance you at certain times. So its all about getting the balance right. 

Well said...having a mix allows for a versatile system which can play differently in different situations. 

[kpsia518]

1 minute ago, phnompenhandy said:

Isn't that just NO support duties?

 

as baby,you may not know NO support duties = very very very structure game play.
you may not know that.

if you got some experience，then you didn't need any label

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, kpsia518 said:

label = guide for baby.

if you know football,you didn't need lebel.

but for baby,maybe

 

Stop speaking nonsense. You've had the answer. Stop making out it does something that it doesn't. Team fluidity is not the same as team shape was. Nor does it have any bearing/impact on anything at all. It's merely just a label made up of the duties you've used. 

I don't know why you are hung up and about changing it for? You're supposed to focus on what a role and duty does on FM19, that's why team shape was removed. You're complicating the game for something that doesn't actually exist any longer. You need to adapt your way of thinking now and move on.

[westy8chimp]

4 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Well there's a little bit of Key Stage 2 level rocket science. On support duty isn't a player going to defend going to defend when out of possession and attack when in possession? There might be a difference in their reaction during transitions, but is it not generally safer to hedge by using support duties in most positions other than the ones where you can't such as poacher or centre back?

Support duty will mean different things to different roles. In some cases the difference between defend and support is hold position vs progress forward with the attack. Difference between support and attack can be a propensity to play a riskier pass... Or make a forward run. 

Duty also affects a players base position... Attack slightly more advanced of support, and defend further back of support. 

Theres several differences that add up to quite a big difference in some roles. Absolutely not a case of support is better because its all action. You need to think on both individual basis (what do i want this player to do) but as part of the larger team goal. A cm-d vs cm-s vs cm-a in my view is a completely different player. 

[NabsKebabs]

7 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Really? Okay, that's interesting because for me Counter-Attack means defend defend defend - boom! Attack. Sounds like Support duties, no?

in order to go BOOM attack you ideally need an attack duty to burst away. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by NabsKebabs

[phnompenhandy]

Just now, NabsKebabs said:

in order to go BOOM attack you ideally need an attack to burst away. 

Yes, but the thing is in a Counter-Attacking philosophy you will spend most of your time defending and you want bodies behind the ball. Three guys on attack duty loitering on the half-way line ruins the game plan, doesn't it?

[Cleon]

Some of the language used in this thread is why myth's begin in the first place. The way some of you are talking are as if team fluidity actually means something still. The only thing that really matters here it it doesn't. Let's not lose this point as others reading will get confused.

[phnompenhandy]

3 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Support duty will mean different things to different roles. In some cases the difference between defend and support is hold position vs progress forward with the attack. Difference between support and attack can be a propensity to play a riskier pass... Or make a forward run. 

Duty also affects a players base position... Attack slightly more advanced of support, and defend further back of support. 

Theres several differences that add up to quite a big difference in some roles. Absolutely not a case of support is better because its all action. You need to think on both individual basis (what do i want this player to do) but as part of the larger team goal. A cm-d vs cm-s vs cm-a in my view is a completely different player. 

Yes, yes, this is what I'm trying to understand more deeply. Specifically, what is a CMa going to do that a CMs won't, or a CMs do that a CMd won't?

[Rashidi]

10 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Really? Okay, that's interesting because for me Counter-Attack means defend defend defend - boom! Attack. Sounds like Support duties, no?

Mentality - Defensive 

Support duties - more inclined to be defensive during transitions, you guys can fill in the rest. And that is all i care about.

 

[NabsKebabs]

1 minute ago, phnompenhandy said:

Yes, but the thing is in a Counter-Attacking philosophy you will spend most of your time defending and you want bodies behind the ball. Three guys on attack duty loitering on the half-way line ruins the game plan, doesn't it?

That's literally what most people think is the biggest exploit in the ME. 3 striker systems that have 3 guys loitering at the halfway line ready to counter. 

Don't forget that your formation is very important to how you defend. As your formation is literally your defensive shape. 

[phnompenhandy]

1 minute ago, Cleon said:

Some of the language used in this thread is why myth's begin in the first place. The way some of you are talking are as if team fluidity actually means something still. The only thing that really matters here it it doesn't. Let's not lose this point as others reading will get confused.

Hopefully the baby-talk poster has gone away. I'm trying to develop a serious analysis of duties, raising the question of whether the NEW use of the term fluid is inherently a better philosophy than a structured approach.

[NabsKebabs]

1 minute ago, Rashidi said:

Mentality - Defensive 

Support duties - more inclined to be defensive during transitions, you guys can fill in the rest

 

Not much boom attack going on there. 

[NabsKebabs]

Just now, phnompenhandy said:

Hopefully the baby-talk poster has gone away. I'm trying to develop a serious analysis of duties, raising the question of whether the NEW use of the term fluid is inherently a better philosophy than a structured approach.

Dude, forget about the freakin "fluid" and "structured." That stuff means nothing anymore.

Just worry about having a good balance in your roles and duties. 

[Rashidi]

1 minute ago, NabsKebabs said:

Not much boom attack going on there. 

This is what i am using to smash everyone with Everton. Based on this formation, I then decide mentality and every other TI to define my style of play. I never bother with the term fluidity cos there are times against some teams I may do something different by changing the PF to an AF for instance,

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Hopefully the baby-talk poster has gone away. I'm trying to develop a serious analysis of duties, raising the question of whether the NEW use of the term fluid is inherently a better philosophy than a structured approach.

You should focus on what the role/duty does rather than the label you're given. It's really that simple. Anything else is just complicating things for no reason at all.

[phnompenhandy]

1 minute ago, NabsKebabs said:

That's literally what most people think is the biggest exploit in the ME. 3 striker systems that have 3 guys loitering at the halfway line ready to counter. 

Don't forget that your formation is very important to how you defend. As your formation is literally your defensive shape. 

Is it? I didn't know that as I don't look at exploit threads or discussions. Never mind the exploit-artists; I'm trying to understand how to play the game fairly and properly. Are you proposing using 3 attack duties (maybe one striker and 2 wingers) in a counter-Attacking system?

[westy8chimp]

9 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Yes, yes, this is what I'm trying to understand more deeply. Specifically, what is a CMa going to do that a CMs won't, or a CMs do that a CMd won't?

As rashidi just said... The mentality is a big modifier. 

But on balanced mentality... Its the players main focus/mindset. In my opinion, whilst a cm-d may progress up the field, his first thought is defend, so lower base position, safer passing, less forward runs. Support player higher starting position, will make himself available for the pass more frequently and will progress with an attack, and track back to help defend. Attack duty, higher start position... Frequent attacking runs beyond the play, will still defend but during transition slower to get back and will have one eye on his next forward run as soon as possession is turned over. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by westy8chimp

[phnompenhandy]

4 minutes ago, Cleon said:

You should focus on what the role/duty does rather than the label you're given. It's really that simple. Anything else is just complicating things for no reason at all.

Okay, I guess baby-talk guy's blethering has rendered certain words verboten now. Let me repeat an earlier question - what exactly does a CMa do that a CMs doesn't, and a CMs do that a CMd doesn't?

 

Wait up - maybe westy's got in there already!

Edited October 26, 2018 by phnompenhandy

[kpsia518]

12 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Hopefully the baby-talk poster has gone away. I'm trying to develop a serious analysis of duties, raising the question of whether the NEW use of the term fluid is inherently a better philosophy than a structured approach.

i know i make trouble for ppl,i sorry.

but i just want answer.I drop this issue.

answer i got from here : don't care,& discover you self

Edited October 26, 2018 by kpsia518

[NabsKebabs]

6 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

This is what i am using to smash everyone with Everton. Based on this formation, I then decide mentality and every other TI to define my style of play. I never bother with the term fluidity cos there are times against some teams I may do something different by changing the PF to an AF for instance,

I'm thinking about an Everton save...and nice system. I can already see the patterns you're going for. The right hand side of the pitch has the option of keeping the ball with 2 support duties and a DLP. This creates space on the left for the winger on attack. The BWM can help defend the left side of the pitch as the winger may not always come back. The advanced forward is interesting because that gives you the option of devastating counters if the winger and him are on the same wavelength. And it sounds like you also use him as a PF sometimes...makes a lot of sense in games where you want your striker to be a bit reserved and not lose the ball as much. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by NabsKebabs

[NabsKebabs]

9 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Is it? I didn't know that as I don't look at exploit threads or discussions. Never mind the exploit-artists; I'm trying to understand how to play the game fairly and properly. Are you proposing using 3 attack duties (maybe one striker and 2 wingers) in a counter-Attacking system?

3 attack duties in high positions on the pitch can work very well in a counter attacking system. It will only work if the opposition is giving you space though.

If you watch @Rashidi on youtube, his Kingstonian team had a counter attacking 4312 system with all the 3 players at the front on attack. From memory an AP(A), T(A) and AF(A). The thing is he generally only used it in games where he was against teams who were throwing a lot of players forward.

More balanced systems will have 1 or 2 attack duties. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by NabsKebabs

[Rashidi]

2 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

I'm thinking about an Everton save...and nice system. I can already see the patterns you're going for. The right hand side of the pitch has the option of keeping the ball with 2 support duties and a DLP. This creates space on the left for the winger on attack. The BWM can help defend the left side of the pitch as the winger may not always come back. The advanced forward is interesting because that gives you the option of devastating counters if the winger and him are on the same wavelength. And it sounds like you also use him as a PF sometimes...makes a lot of sense in games where you want your striker to be a bit reserved and not lose the ball as much. 

You are a guy after me heart..all points spot on! 

[JamieTC13]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

Any difference between fluid / structured / flexible?  You have more or less players using a support duty.  That's it.  End of.  Nothing else.  Team Fluidity is just the label given to how many players have a defend / support / attack duty.

All that's happening here is you are associating these labels to the old extinct Team Shape because they've been given the same names.  That's the only similarity.#

 

Please raise this in the Bugs forum.  At best this is misleading, at worst it's just plain wrong.

yh i have already raised this but they havent got back to me yet i raised it Monday

[Rashidi]

12 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Is it? I didn't know that as I don't look at exploit threads or discussions. Never mind the exploit-artists; I'm trying to understand how to play the game fairly and properly. Are you proposing using 3 attack duties (maybe one striker and 2 wingers) in a counter-Attacking system?

Why are 3 attack duties an exploit? Sometimes i sit deep and hoof the ball, cos thats my only way out. Thats a strategy thats common in football. Clear the ball to the flanks so their players can hit sides like Liverpool on the counter. It was what sides like Burnley tried to do last season. Klopp recognised this weakness, especially since his 433 from last season really only had 1 holding mid who could not protect either flank all the time. Move forward to this season and he has gone for a 4231 which has two holding mids to better protect his backline. Even Joe Gomez remarked that the new system has made it easier for them to defend, plus the high press has been abandoned.

[herne79]

On ‎16‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 15:57, herne79 said:

Lots of changes this year to get our teeth into, so with help from Rashidi, Cleon and review by Jack from SI this is a brief overview.  Do note we're not covering everything here, just the key highlights.  We don't want to spoil all the surprises .

Team Shape

Team Shape has been removed and has not been replaced.  There has been a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about this tactical setting for a long time now, so it’s been removed.  Any functions it used to perform, such as adjusting player mentality or creative freedom can still be utilised but now we’ll be adjusting team instructions or player settings instead. Which we could always do anyway.

Team Fluidity

Team Fluidity is nothing more than a label attached to describe how we set up our players.  It has nothing to do with Team Shape and should not be confused with it – despite using the same naming conventions.  The way Team Fluidity works is essentially as a guide on how to structure our teams in a way we desire.  Prior to this there was nothing to help us set up our roles.  So for example – if you set all your attackers to attack and all your defenders to defend you’ll be playing in a very “structured” manner: defenders defend, attackers attack.  Now change everyone to a support duty and your team will be playing with a more “fluid” style; everybody supports each other.

As mentioned, don’t confuse this with the old Team Shape naming conventions, despite their similarities.

I'm locking this thread for a short period because people are just causing confusion.

Please re-read these opening paragraphs from the OP.  Note how this has been reviewed by SI, so we're not just making this stuff up.  We explicity say that Team Fluidity is nothing more than a label, and check the example (in bold) about what it means.

I'll reopen the thread later.

[Jean0987654321]

This thread got hot in a hurry, eh?

 

Hopefully SI sorts out that team fluidity bug otherwise the mods might have close up shop in this thread 10 times over. 

 

As for the tactics creator, I gotta give credit that the FM Gods are trying this time instead of giving little info within the game and then locking everything away in a closet.

[3LionsFM]

Does Team Mentality effect closing down and defensive line positioning? Is this reflected in the UI? 

[Rashidi]

9 hours ago, 3LionsFM said:

Does Team Mentality effect closing down and defensive line positioning? Is this reflected in the UI? 

If you make changes to Mentality you will notice it has an impact of nearly everything , and this is visually indicated on the new tactical creator.

[ceefax the cat]

Now we've finally got control over width with and without the ball, maybe it would be nice to decide how eager the defence are to push up in possession? It's the only one left

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, ceefax the cat said:

maybe it would be nice to decide how eager the defence are to push up in possession?

Well, that's already defined by your d-line setting (lower, standard, higher). And of course, the mentality additionally affects this (just like almost everything else).

[mmitch19]

Question from a thread about individual position/role training in GD

   20 hours ago,  HUNT3R said: 

You're training a set of attributes. Training him as a complete forward only puts a focus on the highlighted attributes, it's not training him in the role itself and taking time away from attribute development, if that makes sense.

Interested to know how this works with the new training.  If I train a player as box to box, a bunch of attacking and defensive attributes are trained.  How does this interact with the training selected day by day and the whether he is in the attacking or defensive training unit?  For example if he’s in the defensive unit and we’re focussed on defensive training will his dribbling not improve?

[Finknottle]

In FM 18 you could set up three tactics to train up. In FM 19 I seem to be only able to set up two tactics to train. Am I doing it wrong and if I am how do I get the third tactic set up?

[Rashidi]

4 minutes ago, Finknottle said:

In FM 18 you could set up three tactics to train up. In FM 19 I seem to be only able to set up two tactics to train. Am I doing it wrong and if I am how do I get the third tactic set up?

You can set up three tactics to train, where the tactics area is, there is a 1 2 and 3. Did you try pressing them?

[Rashidi]

On ‎01‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 13:52, mmitch19 said:

Question from a thread about individual position/role training in GD

   20 hours ago,  HUNT3R said: 

You're training a set of attributes. Training him as a complete forward only puts a focus on the highlighted attributes, it's not training him in the role itself and taking time away from attribute development, if that makes sense.

Interested to know how this works with the new training.  If I train a player as box to box, a bunch of attacking and defensive attributes are trained.  How does this interact with the training selected day by day and the whether he is in the attacking or defensive training unit?  For example if he’s in the defensive unit and we’re focussed on defensive training will his dribbling not improve?

Basically...you decide. My fullbacks are in the attacking unit..cos that's how we roll :-) We don't believe in defending, so during periods where I am training say attacking training,,....my fullbacks are considered in the Attacking Unit so they are out there trying to bully my already depleted defensive unit which needs reinforcement from the reserves.

As far as specific attributes like dribbling, etc, check which Unit that session impacts. If your player is in the attacking unit, you want to be checking to see if dribbling is in the session as a potential impact for the attacking unit

 

[Finknottle]

2 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You can set up three tactics to train, where the tactics area is, there is a 1 2 and 3. Did you try pressing them?

Knowing me Rashidi, probably not. Muchly thankings, back to the drawing board.

[Rashidi]

1 minute ago, Finknottle said:

Knowing me Rashidi, probably not. Muchly thankings, back to the drawing board.

Don't worry I only discovered shortcuts in FM18, only took me 10 years

[yonko]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Don't worry I only discovered shortcuts in FM18, only took me 10 years

What shortcuts? There are shortcuts?

[Jean0987654321]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

What shortcuts? There are shortcuts?

Keyboard shortcuts yes

[yonko]

42 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Keyboard shortcuts yes

Like what?

[Jean0987654321]

58 minutes ago, yonko said:

Like what?

Spacebar to Continue for one. This is my favorite keyboard shortcut

[Robson 07]

On ‎16‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 15:57, herne79 said:

Tactical Presets

A whole series of ready made tactical systems have been included in FM19, covering a multitude of different tactical styles, from Gegenpressing to Tiki Taka, and much more in between.  However, these are not plug and play and win tactics.  They are a starting point, not the finished article, and may need further tweaking. 

Have to say I like the look of these presets, it is the most helpful/leading/informative (take your pick of those) that SI have probably ever been.  On first impressions some of them are very good.  Some are the way I'd have attempted others are an insight.  New mangers - start with some of these, don't tinker until you know better and you should avoid a big mess.

 

[3LionsFM]

19 minutes ago, coolestrock said:

ive just downloaded the demo , in 2018 you could go from structured to fluid but using a similar command to changing contain to overload , where is that command now ?? how do i go from a fluid shape to a structured in one instruction ?

You can't. Shape is now a label depending on the duties you use.