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herne79

Tactical Challenges #2: TIs and PIs

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@herne79 as I missed Jambo's community challenge this year (probably had a ban when it was created :p ) ... i'll take this on.

I like where you are going with it... to try and take things back to basics ... especially as someone in another thread just admitted to using 10-14 TIs!!!

To go the other extreme I don't plan on using any TI or PI. Probably stay on standard/flexible too ... and just use roles and players to try and be successful.

Please pick me a team out of;

Lazio

Leverkusen

Milan (AC)

Napoli

(I cant decide, and even when I do random online I change my mind).

I'll choose a really 'normal' formation too such as 4123 wide, 4231 wide, 4411, 4141 or 442

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4 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

To go the other extreme I don't plan on using any TI or PI.

I did consider that as the challenge but decided a couple will give people a little more flexibility.

6 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Leverkusen

:thup:

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22 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I did consider that as the challenge but decided a couple will give people a little more flexibility.

:thup:

Leverkusen, going to be my first Bundesliga save since Giovane Elber was at Bayern!

Hopefully the Mrs either has work to do or an early night tonight so I can get through the transfer window and decide on formation.

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44 minutes ago, Armistice said:

So are we supposed to pick any team we want or there's a list of that?

 

2.jpg

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25 minutes ago, herne79 said:

 

2.jpg

Oops, just noticed you said "using the team you like", my bad.

Edited by Armistice

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Is it expected we start a new save? Or would that just be an optional extra if we want to make it harder for ourselves by having a squad not tailor made to our ideas?

Inspired by the 'Attacking and Possession' thread I developed this tactic for the Poacher challenge:

5afb21031f2ba_ScreenShot2018-05-15at19_03_11.thumb.png.cb3ef34aa1089c4563f69ef2b67ef388.png

It wouldn't qualify for this one anyway - although I only have two TIs, my goalkeeper has 3 PIs and my AM has 6 (basically a Trequartista but I didn't want him to draw the ball as a playmaker role). After getting a 2nd place finish in my 2nd season it really went off the boil in season 3 - although we made it out of a tough CL group (Bayern, Atletico, Zenit) we're 17 points off the top in Serie A with only 5 clean sheets in 27 games despite a similar (only slightly improved) squad to the glorious 2nd season. So I was thinking perhaps I revisit the save and work on something with even less instructions - either similarly trying to play possession football, or I had a really simple tactic with Manchester United (2 TIs 1 PI) that might be fun to adapt to a less talented squad. Or start over somewhere, not 100% decided.

Edited by zlatanera

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2 hours ago, zlatanera said:

Is it expected we start a new save?

Entirely up to you :thup:.

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Well I was going to continue that Fiorentina save, but there was no real motivation there, so I'm going with Real Sociedad, a favourite from my FM beginnings whom I haven't managed in a few years. 

Original database - I'd rather have Inigo Martinez in my club than the man who broke Luke Shaw - and I may set further restrictions such as no first window transfer budget, limiting myself to three foreigners perhaps. I may also turn off attribute masking as the AI doesn't appear to be limited by it given how fast it can move in the transfer market at times.

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I’d join in but I use probably one or two TIs at most anyway :D

Probably have stay wider selected for a fullback and dependent on who plays as an attacking midfielder I might have shoot less or mark tighter.

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I'll try to join - time permitting of course. Wanted some inspiration to start a new save, so I'll start up FM Touch and try to make a 442 counter with Valencia, while also trying to be very prudent financially.

 

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Having major laptop issues, going to hope someone at work can fix it tomo! Otherwise ill have to buy a new laptop and restart my Leverkusen save.

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1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

Having major laptop issues, going to hope someone at work can fix it tomo! Otherwise ill have to buy a new laptop and restart my Leverkusen save.

Damn, bad luck :(.

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I ticked this one off with the poacher challenge, i found less TI's seemed to worked better in getting the end play focused to my poacher.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb westy8chimp:

Having major laptop issues, going to hope someone at work can fix it tomo! Otherwise ill have to buy a new laptop and restart my Leverkusen save.

Can't you access your HDD via a Linux distro on a USB stick? Would be worth a punt if you want to save your save (no pun intended :lol:)

Edited by Saris

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Right going to try this one as I'm guilty of using to many pi normally only use 3 ti so will be interesting 

Im using my beloved Bristol City the board expect 15th in the championship 

Ive gone with a safe 4-4-1-1 as it's a system I know well on standard/flexible system and the 2 team instructions are short pass and close down more while the 5 player instructions are gk short kicks,lb and rb are close down more,lm close down more,cm hold PST and AF shoot more.

I will update as I'm just starting pre season just drawn 1-1 and beating Pompey 2-1 at half time 

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I have decided to make a Half-season Review to get more discussions going, so that I can also see others' philosophy in this. Here it goes:

Club:  Sampdoria

Ranking/Seasonal Expectation/Media Prediction: 2nd/ Top half finish/ 11th

Team Stats:Rank 2nd with 48 points, 46 goals 13 conceded, 3 draw 1 loss (Season-end projection 96 points 92 goals 26 conceded, 6 draw 2 loss)

image.thumb.png.0649b06e8646b4bdc5b3e8138d7243ab.png

(Juventus is just insane. With the same form in the 2nd half of the season Juventus would get 102 points)

2 Team Instructions: Shorter Passing, Use Tighter Marking

5 Player Instructions:Shoot Less Often (AML), Shoot Less Often (AMC), Shoot Less Often (AMR), Use Tighter Marking  (DM), Distribute to Full Backs (GK)

The Philosophical Build-up behind

Please bear with me for putting the formation at the end, since the formation does not make sense if one does not look at the thoughts behind.

My thoughts on Less TIs and PIs

A system is performing because less/little instructions are given is non-sense. That system would be performing well because the instructions that are given AND not given suits the system well.The absolute amount of the instructions are not the key since, the other way I look at it, not giving instruction is also an instruction. For example, not giving an instruction for shorter passing or longer passing is essentially giving an instruction to play passing range in-between. Hence, the question that i have to ask myself in this challenge, is what system benefits specifically from 0-2 TIs and 0-5 PIs being given?

How to Defend?

There could be a thousand ways to pull of attacks, but there are only a few ways to set up a solid defense. I would need to know how many TIs would my defense consume to know the number of TIs I have for my Attack. There are two major defense challenge in a vanilla no TI system that I observed:

1) Opponent crosses too easily. Wide defenders are extremely poor in blocking crosses from being made in the first place.

In my limited knowledge pool, I originally only know 1 way of stopping crosses from being made:

image.png.5cb812781339c02b436c203d9e72216b.pngfor both FB/WB etc

In this setting I can stop crosses just by FB themselves in 1v1. This works because they do less defensive work elsewhere. However I can’t use this setting here  because that would already be 6 PI in total. Looking elsewhere, I found another way of stopping crosses in my experimental save of 6-4-0 Newcastle that won the League:

image.png.86ba01c5e60dcd0ba84e8c2c30e21b13.png,&image.png.87cb04407a0010b8281e9b81a6af6404.png

I do not need any PI and TI to stop crosses by playing both FB and WB, therefore I decided to go with this setting.

2) Too much space at the edge of the box, which is free for shooting.

There are many ways to achieve this, but I figured I can do that with 1 TI: Use tighter Marking.

How to Attack?

So back to the question: Under what circumstance will little TIs and PIs be beneficial?

I can see 2 ways of attacking benefitting from less instructions:

1) Free flowing football that rely on flair

Since an unpredictable attack relies on flair and sheer ability, instructions would limit the different ways of attcks being pulled off.

2) Physical superiority

If the team could just crush the opponent physically, instructions does not mean much because both attack and defense could be done in unusual ways and still work, and hence pre-planning could not take what actually happens on the pitch into account. For example, a player could be in a 1v2 and still just won the duel by physicality. In that terms, good dribbling could also work in similar ways but that would be back to 1).

 

 

I decided to go route 1.

I learned from my save for Stoke City 4-1-2-3-0 winning the league that I can pull of free lowing football by:

image.png.18124b8ba748ea6c6c3e4f191237f02a.png&image.png.cec502eaadd76ed7e45cfa3c1f9af7a4.pngx3 &image.png.a56a48ba96c30aac73ba9fde11a4fe5a.png

Shadowstirker has the following PIs pre-selected:

image.png.8dd40b54c0cd425a4d465f1c16106419.png

These are exactly the PIs I wanted for free flowing football. AM(A) also has Get Futher Forward, but only that is insufficient. Others Roles in AM could not meet even half of these PIs.

Shoot Less Often is necessary because Shadowstriker likes to take risk and would absolutely takes long shots if no passing option is provided.Since I am planning on playing no striker, I need the Shadowstrikers to wait and look for passing options rather than rushing for long shots. A total of 3 PIs used here.

The Attacking Mentality and Very Fluid Team Shape are looking for 1) More risk taken 2) More Creative Freedom 3) More Phases participated by each player 4) More fluid position roaming. This should be sufficient for free-flowing football from experience aforementioned.

 

However 3 attackers are outnumbered in the Attack Phase. I decided to modify the wing back positions to bolster the Attack by pushing more players into the middle is to provide more passing options for the SS, while also attempting to overload the box.  I learned that from my save for Bournemouth 4-1-4-1 winning the league that Inverted Wing Backs with attacking duty can overload the box and make some quality crosses by-line  inside the box (very weird behavior isn't it?). The flanks now look like this:

image.png.9ca6f524b9ac14362034b6cb431fc084.png&image.png.996735401c84cde9cb47d27f292ae7e2.png

 

One more PI is used on the Goalkeeper:

image.png.94a1e192c9f05a1bb5bdc4172289b601.png

Since the tactic is not designed for contesting long goal kicks, I want some safe build-up from the back and wait until the ball goes to the shadowstirkers to let them take the risk.

 

The last PI goes to Use Tighter Marking for the DM. I have doubts in this because I do not know whether the mark tighter TI already covers this. However I do not need PI elsewhere so I just keep it this way.

 

Since this tactic will be on Attacking mentaility all players would take risk. So The last TI goes to Shorter Passing to limits the risk taken by the 8 players other than shadowstrikers. It could also be observed in game that, if shorter passing is not given, some of the passes from the shadowstrikers are way too ambitious even for a flair reliant system

 

Resulting Tactic

6-1-3-0 Minimalism Flair

image.thumb.png.661540d04b32cc7d6450a43316349010.png

Why Sampdoria?

I picked a team with enough AMs having good flairs:

image.png.3206adfffa3d1b52315474505b1c4f85.png

Fixtures and Results until 30/12/2017

image.thumb.png.6ddb966649e19a212e7b4425ff026b65.png

There shall be an update at the end of the season. 


What do you guys think? Tell me your thoughts on minimal instructions and my interpretation!

 

 

 

Edited by moolochicken
Formatting

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@moolochicken that is an absolute abomination. love it. I've shied away from doing a mid-season update due to my usually falling off in the second half of a season, interestingly though the issue with crosses you mentioned isn't one I've been having in my 4-3-3 (which will update later tonight probably - not playing FM whilst an actual final is on), but I have found it frustrating the 2 TIs limit - I have 2 which are essential to my playing style but the amount of times I've wished I could put "low crosses" on as well given the amount of headers over the bar where my striker has found himself underneath the cross...the challenge is great at making you think about what's really necessary though. 

I've always considered playing full backs and wing backs, happy to see it is working for you! I take it that red zone on the analysis screen doesn't matter because of the IWBs? 

Also, with "shoot less often" on your AMs, do you find yourself losing the ball through either them failing to hold up long enough to get support, or playing a hollywood pass to nobody? Asking as I'm considering making two "shoot less often" instructions my final ones to take me up to 5 on my system. 

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1 hour ago, moolochicken said:

Hence, the question that i have to ask myself in this challenge, is what system benefits specifically from 0-2 TIs and 0-5 PIs being given?

 

On ‎15‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 15:45, herne79 said:

Keeping TIs and PIs to a minimum can help lift the fog and improve understanding of player behaviour as well as how Mentality or even (dare I say it) Team Shape works.

You're right.  There's not really any such thing as not giving instructions.  If we don't add a TI or PI it amounts to players choosing a middle road and perhaps depending more on the tactical framework (mentality/team shape/formation) and their own attributes / decision making skills.  And that's kind of the point.  Once we start adding in more and more instructions it can become more and more difficult to properly assess player behaviour and so identify where issues may lie.  The challenge is also an exercise in helping to demonstrate that adding lots of instructions aren't necessarily needed to be successful, which can be a common issue especially with less experienced managers.

btw I'm away for a few days now so won't be contributing anything here for a little while.

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Okay so I just finished my season with Real Sociedad. I played on original database, no first window transfer budgets, and set my Director of Football to handle all contract negotiations - although this only was decided in January after I had been forced to beg the board to sign a player as I had no transfer budget and he'd got a good deal on the contract. 

I started out planning to just make some slight tweaks to this successful tactic:

5ac032ed23609_ScreenShot2018-04-01at02_07_51.thumb.png.cda7b77415db33441dfde8d116bd8a53.png.33b6cc59e44c96a2ea1616e7e32edb0f.png

Much like that squad, Real Sociedad are very strong at centre back and have good options up front (Willian Jose) and on both flanks (Juanmi, Carlos Vela, Adnan Januzaj). However, all my wide players are inside forwards so instantly I'm looking at something more in the Barca / Ajax mould of a 433 with both wings cutting inside, but we still have the potential to play on the break like that United team so no worries. Then I looked at my central midfield options - that Manchester United side was very physical (Pogba and Matic are huge, Lingard is rapid and a hard worker), from previous experience with Bilbao I initially thought I would also have a tall, athletic midfield. Alas I do not - Mikel Oyarzabal and Asier Illaramendi both have high stamina, but none of my midfield are tall and I have multiple players with stamina between 10 and 12 and not much pace, either aging (David Zurutuza, Xabi Prieto) or just not athletes (Sergio Canales, Ruben Pardo). So I decided to go for a more controlled possession play - no point lumping it over the top of my midfielders who would tire themselves out running up and down all day long.

937571291_ScreenShot2018-05-19at18_53_10.thumb.png.3cce5bd3f3874b9582c499ba692b7e33.png

As you can see, similarites remain in terms of duties and shape from the original tactic. Control sets a reasonably high line by default, then Play Out Of Defence slows our buildup, as does Retain Possession - reducing risk as well, as we don't want to be constantly giving the ball away for my low fitness central midfielders to chase.

3 PIs:

Goalkeeper: Distribute to Centre Backs - as part of our controlled build up, playing it to the two guys who have the most options ahead of them, and all my CBs are good on the ball.

RW / LW: Stay Wider - inside forwards cut in so early, even on attack duty, its really hard to try replicate the movement I associate with the role (Cristiano Ronaldo, basically), so I just tried to encourage them to spread the play a little more rather than getting too congested. Juanmi got 20 goals and 13 assists so it seemed to work. 

The results:

1347034294_ScreenShot2018-05-19at18_55_58.thumb.png.1d02f6871d11845f05c5cd00f9df0c81.png

5th, 3 places above our predicted finish of 8th is good, but given we were only two points off top (and 6 ahead of Real Madrid) after 19 games, disappointing. Losing Carlos Vela in January set us back as I had to rotate heavily in January thanks to the fixture congestion from the Copa del Rey - I had to beg the board to go out and sign Joaquin Torres (£4.4m) as they didn't give me any transfer budget. Overall though, we just didn't have enough squad depth to maintain our challenge - two games a week for 11 weeks in a row from 31st December was just too much for this squad. When we drew Leipzig in the Europa League I was quite happy at going out to be honest. Still, you will notice we did manage to win the Cup! A first trophy since 1987 is nothing to be sniffed at, we survived a 120 minute bombardment by Atletico (lots of long shots, lots of crosses, my centre backs and goalkeeper had the highest ratings) to steal it off a set piece in the 121st minute. 

So - 3 places above media prediction, meeting board expectations in the league (my early season surge taking the sheen off it for the board), far exceeding them in the cup (they wanted QF) and falling one round short in Europa (but Leipzig are my bogey team on this FM and are a much better side) - I'm calling this a success!

 

The challenge has definitely helped to encourage me to keep going down the path of simplification I started with my Manchester United save, and I'm thinking freeing myself from the 2 TIs 5 PIs limit (I really wanted to change my crossing at times but couldn't really lose my two existing instructions) may let me be even more successful in the long term on this save. If anyone has any suggestions on how to break down smaller sides I'm open to suggestions, as they were quite good at doing what we did to Atletico (although luckily we don't seem to concede on the counter too much).

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11 hours ago, zlatanera said:

 I've shied away from doing a mid-season update due to my usually falling off in the second half of a season.

I agree. No matter how good I set up a tactic, performances will dip a little in the second half of the season, and that is the experience from over dozens of saves with different teams and leagues. However I noticed that AI teams also drop in from in the second half of the season, so in the end it is about who is more consistent. 

 

11 hours ago, zlatanera said:

I've always considered playing full backs and wing backs, happy to see it is working for you! I take it that red zone on the analysis screen doesn't matter because of the IWBs? 

The red zone does not matter; it highlights somewhere on the pitch where there is no player presence for both Attack and Defense, but I don't need players there in both Attack and Defense since both are already considered in the build-up. 

I generally don't agree that a team must equally distribute players across the pitch to take up as much space as possible --- I don't think that is how football game is won.

 

11 hours ago, zlatanera said:

Also, with "shoot less often" on your AMs, do you find yourself losing the ball through either them failing to hold up long enough to get support, or playing a hollywood pass to nobody? Asking as I'm considering making two "shoot less often" instructions my final ones to take me up to 5 on my system. 

From observation, if the AMs were to lose the ball it is usually a missed pass rather than failing to hold up, and I have already modified these passes by:

11 hours ago, moolochicken said:

 It could also be observed in game that, if shorter passing is not given, some of the passes from the shadowstrikers are way too ambitious even for a flair reliant system.

And the result is risky passes in shorter range, which is fine by me.

Edited by moolochicken
typo

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@moolochicken cheers for the detailed reply! Definitely going to put my IF-Su on "Shoot Less Often", and perhaps the opposite wing one as well. If I was motivated solely by the challenge parameters would have chosen a team who weren't guaranteed to lose their best player in January - the three weeks between losing Carlos Vela and convincing the board to sign Joaquin Torres were a case of sacrificing the league to go for the cup.

I've never fully understood the analysis view, like for example if partnerships get worse surely they can get better so therefore they're not that relevant, do you get the assistant notification about adjusting mentalities? I found in my 4-5-1 structured I did as the forward was (purposefully) isolated - curious to see if a successful tactic still gets that advice. I've ignored a red zone on the analysis screen before using a tactic from strikerless.com but after the updates in January that tactic was nullified and I didn't know the problem.

Edited by zlatanera

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I've been trying this with Valencia. A very interesting club to play as: last two years they've finished 12th, while expectations were far higher. According to FM, they should aspire to finish 5th this year, but they don't have much money and they have 5 players in on loan, of which two are key players (Guedes and Kondogbia) and at least one is an important first teamer. They play in La Liga, where two elite teams (Real Madrid and Barcelona) will be very hard to beat for everyone, and Atletico Madrid is also a notch above everyone, with a lot of world-class talent.So finishing fourth would be a good start to my career at Valencia.

 

The team is set up for a 4-4-2 and in real live, they play a narrow, direct 4-4-2. I've tried some different setups to implement this in FM. First, I want to have a compact team, so I wanted to go fluid or very fluid. Directness means higher risk taking, higher tempo and quick vertical balls. So the mentality will be something higher than standard. Given the quality (or lack thereof, compared to the top 3 teams) I'm very hesitant to go above Control, so that where we'll start. The pros of this is that we get higher settings for tempo, defensive line and closing down. On the other hand, by default this also means a higher width, which I don't want. So my first team instruction to add is play much narrower

 

In the first friendlies I set up the team as Valencia play in real life: default back four (FB-CD-CD-FB), a midfield four with Guedes as Inverted Winger, Parejo as playmaker, Kondogbia as defensive screen and Soler on the right as wide midfielder or wide playmaker, and finally two strikers (DLF-AF). Immediately, two things were happening which I needed to remedy. Firstly, in FM I find the positioning without the ball and the closing down of opponents when using two strikers to be very frustrating. They stay on top of the two centre backs and don't contribute much to getting the ball back. So, I've moved one striker back to AMC as shadow striker. With the PI shoot less often, because he was taking too many shots from distance. The other thing happening was that the two central midfielders were on top of each other too much, almost holding hands during the game and continuously closing down the same side of play, leaving a gaping hole on the other side. Also, I wanted Kondogbia to be a screen in front of the defence to enable Parejo to be the main playmaker with a little bit less defensive responsibility. So Kondogbia was moved to DMC. See the final tactic below - I also play with the TI to push higher up, since I do want my players to close down earlier when losing possession. 

 

567160468_Valencia_Overview.thumb.png.42ef1739d092a80767e08c40f45b7c18.png 

 

During the friendlies and the first couple of games, I added some PI's when I saw things happening that I didn't like: the ML has shoot less often, Parejo has more direct passes as I want him to be ambitious in his passing and the goalkeeper has take short kicks as I don't want to lose possession from goal kicks the entire time. If SI finally comes with an instruction to tell keepers to never, ever boot the ball upfield I'd be so happy.

 

For now I see some good football from my team - we can play patiently around teams sitting deep, and we can be devastating on the counter, playing a quick long ball forward and setting up a team mate with a sideways pass or cross. For now, after half a season we're in third place, but it's still tight at the top. As you can see from my fixture list, I lost two matches at the beginning of the season when I was still working on the tactic, and when I lose, it's away from home. So I'm also making some tweaks to play a bit differently away from home.

 

1469495155_LigaSantander_OverviewStages.thumb.png.0d9f54de2d08d07fb1abc234df0fbdbd.png

 

97227127_Valencia_SeniorFixtures.thumb.png.691acbdf969a443d30d94f77102987b6.png

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I'm in for this challenge :)

I will use my ongoing burnley save, which I started to try a 442 with TM and a poacher up front. Started with no TIs and no PIs to and flexible - standard to see especially how the TM behaved. 

since the start I have now ditched the TM for a dlf, and I have also changed some other roles and duties, but I still run on flexible - standard and with a 442 formation. 

I rarely start any game with TIs, but for some matches were I face the big boys I use pass into space, some times in combination with clear ball to flanks. These two TIs I often use if I take the lead in a game and I see that the other team change their formation to a more attacking one. When losing a game I try to go close down more in combination with get stuck in. I also tend to change someone's duty from support to attack. 

When it comes to PIs I have a few including goalkeeper distribution,  and one of my Cds taking fewer risky passes. For some games I also put more risky passes and more direct passing for my playmaker. 

I really love this way of playing the game I must say. It's very easy to see what happens when you for example change a role or a duty. 

When it comes to performance I sit 4th in February and board expect me to avoid relegation. So looking good so far,  though I think I will drop a bit in the table as I have Liverpool, Chelsea and Tottenham sitting just one point behind me :p

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6 hours ago, zlatanera said:

do you get the assistant notification about adjusting mentalities? I found in my 4-5-1 structured I did as the forward was (purposefully) isolated - curious to see if a successful tactic still gets that advice.

I get advice for mentality and formation all the time and the team could be playing extremely well. Just ignore it. If the assistant's advice are better, wouldn't other AI teams be much stronger than they are now?

 

I have also had a read on your challenge and have some questions in mind. 

16 hours ago, zlatanera said:

1347034294_ScreenShot2018-05-19at18_55_58.thumb.png.1d02f6871d11845f05c5cd00f9df0c81.png

Firstly, A Goal Difference of 20 is unusual. I assume you are getting around 60 goals since I cannot imagine your are conceding more than 40 a season, and it looks like it is on the low side for human controlled teams.  If that is the case, then it doesn't seems like the attacks are successful. and thus the next question is also related:

 

16 hours ago, zlatanera said:

 So I decided to go for a more controlled possession play - no point lumping it over the top of my midfielders who would tire themselves out running up and down all day long.

937571291_ScreenShot2018-05-19at18_53_10.thumb.png.3cce5bd3f3874b9582c499ba692b7e33.png

As you can see, similarites remain in terms of duties and shape from the original tactic. Control sets a reasonably high line by default, then Play Out Of Defence slows our buildup, as does Retain Possession - reducing risk as well, as we don't want to be constantly giving the ball away for my low fitness central midfielders to chase.

There can be a lot of ways to set up TIs for a possesion tactic. that includes:

- Retain Possession

- Play Out of Defense

- Lower Tempo 

- Shorter passing

- Work Ball into Box

- Play Narrower

- Dribble Less (or more if you have strong dribblers)

Each of them has a different degree of effectiveness on maintaining possession, and Retain Possession is certainly one of the highest impact TIs. As you can see, I picked Play Shorter Passing for having less risk in passing. Based on your result I am starting to think that Retain Possession maybe holding back too much for taking risks.  Or  are there other considerations behind you picking Retain possession over the others?

 

16 hours ago, zlatanera said:

...... and I'm thinking freeing myself from the 2 TIs 5 PIs limit (I really wanted to change my crossing at times but couldn't really lose my two existing instructions) may let me be even more successful in the long term on this save. 

I can see a way to maintain 2 TIs while keeping the team to maintain Possession: Counter Mentality. Counter will make the team retain possession when the team is not in the counter phase. You can then take away Retain Possession and add in lower crosses.Another way would be spending 2 PIs on your crossers to tell them to Cross To Near Post. This might lower the height of the cross.

If both solutions are not what you want , then you might have to add the 3rd PI and stop the challenge. But that defeated the purpose of the 2 TI challenge; a tactic should be playing well with 2 TI, and if that tactic need 3 TI to play well, then chopping off 1 TI of it to play this challenge might not have good results from the beginning. Perhaps a different type of football need to be played? It is entirely up to you.

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3 hours ago, blue heron said:

The other thing happening was that the two central midfielders were on top of each other too much, almost holding hands during the game and continuously closing down the same side of play, leaving a gaping hole on the other side. Also, I wanted Kondogbia to be a screen in front of the defence to enable Parejo to be the main playmaker with a little bit less defensive responsibility. So Kondogbia was moved to DMC. 

I have also faced this problem in another save, but even after I adopted a 2 CD and 1 DM setting, the 2 CD still press the same target often and leave another opponent player free. Did you still observed that problem for the season you played? Have you tried other PIs or other TIs to stop this (such as less pressing/ more disciplined/ Cover duty/ BWM/ Anchor Man)?

 

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@moolochicken it seems to be better now, but I've also added close down less to my DLP in MCL position. I still sometimes see the DM and MCL going after the same man, but my CD's seem to understand that if one of them starts closing down an opponent, the other doesn't. Maybe this has to do with the narrowness TI I've added: the fullbacks (or the wide midfielders in the midfield strata) are also nearby, so there are already two team members closing down.

The pressing of opponents is also one of the reasons I've gone for a DMC-MCL-AMCR combination: they all start on a different vertical line when pressing, so it's harder for opponents to pass through them and they are all triggered differently on when to start pressing.

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5 hours ago, moolochicken said:

Firstly, A Goal Difference of 20 is unusual. I assume you are getting around 60 goals since I cannot imagine your are conceding more than 40 a season, and it looks like it is on the low side for human controlled teams.  If that is the case, then it doesn't seems like the attacks are successful. and thus the next question is also related:

There can be a lot of ways to set up TIs for a possesion tactic. that includes:

- Retain Possession

- Play Out of Defense

- Lower Tempo 

- Shorter passing

- Work Ball into Box

- Play Narrower

- Dribble Less (or more if you have strong dribblers)

Each of them has a different degree of effectiveness on maintaining possession, and Retain Possession is certainly one of the highest impact TIs. As you can see, I picked Play Shorter Passing for having less risk in passing. Based on your result I am starting to think that Retain Possession maybe holding back too much for taking risks.  Or  are there other considerations behind you picking Retain possession over the others?

 

I can see a way to maintain 2 TIs while keeping the team to maintain Possession: Counter Mentality. Counter will make the team retain possession when the team is not in the counter phase. You can then take away Retain Possession and add in lower crosses.Another way would be spending 2 PIs on your crossers to tell them to Cross To Near Post. This might lower the height of the cross.

If both solutions are not what you want , then you might have to add the 3rd PI and stop the challenge. But that defeated the purpose of the 2 TI challenge; a tactic should be playing well with 2 TI, and if that tactic need 3 TI to play well, then chopping off 1 TI of it to play this challenge might not have good results from the beginning. Perhaps a different type of football need to be played? It is entirely up to you.

694740863_ScreenShot2018-05-20at18_01_27.thumb.png.6361a1576d44cea4f5d7f25263143b06.png

Scored 56, conceded 36. Not an exceptionally high scoring league all-round to be fair. 

Retain Possession was the primary one as someone somewhere pointed out that whilst playing a shorter passing style you can leave yourself vulnerable to counters, and certainly my observation have been that using RP I've not been done on the counter too often. As I outlined, my team is really not the best physically so just keeping the ball and not having to do any running is good in my book. In one game I did remove "Retain Possession" so we just had Play Out Of Defence and Low Crosses and almost immediately conceded on the counter when my DM made a risky pass, which reinforced my opinions a little - maybe I shouldn't put too much stock in one incident though?

Cross Near Post is an interesting idea, however a lot of Juanmi's goals came from darting in at the back post so I'd be worried that I would be losing those goals? I'd have to look back and see how many were assisted by the AMR as opposed to the RB or even ST I guess.

Counter is an interesting suggestion, I had noticed this post had very similar duties to what I'd started out with and used a Counter mentality for possession, but I would then perhaps not want my defensive line so low as Counter introduces by default so I'd still find myself wanting 3 TIs. To be honest, I only ever intended to dogmatically stick to the parameters of the challenge for my first season - reasoning that it would stop me panicking and throwing everything at the wall hoping something sticks just because I lose one game, and if I was successful I would have established a solid base in terms of results and a playing style to pursue throughout the save. So in that way it really worked. I do think you definitely have a point about my attacks though and I'm looking into changing something going forward (provided I can keep my squad together). 

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I'll have a crack - thinking with Leicester. See if I can get Mahrez and Vardy to perform like they did a couple seasons ago. 

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Done with my season now playing as burnley. As I feared in my previous post Tottenham, Chelsea and Liverpool all overtook me. I ended in 7th place, but I had a sniff at 6th as me and Liverpool ended with same amount of points. Unfortunately their gd was 24 and my was 23 :p

However, as the board wanted me to avoid relegation I think 7th is OK. To add to this I also reached the final in the FA cup, but Chelsea stopped me from winning (I really struggled against their 343 with my 442 in all our clashes). 

Not sure what to do now, but I might actually continue this save to see what we can do in Europe :)

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Allright, one season done and time to review the results. I drew some serious inspiration from Hernes Attacking and Possession-thread. The challenge was to reinvigorate the Swansea way, injecting a positive and forward thinking philosophy with emphasis on possession into a team who seams to have lost their identity.

Team: Swansea City AFC
Media prediction: 18:th
Bord expectation: Avoid relegation
Additional settings: No transfers first window,

Now, I was looking to go back to the style and formation that got the welshmen promoted in the first place and made them a Premier League staple. This meant a stable back 4, an intelligent triumvirate in the middle, two wide players and a single forward. My first take on it was a 4-1-2-3:

4-1-2-3.thumb.PNG.840c39787f5741ef646e838faa2f1094.PNG

To achieve the desired style of play, I used the following team and player instructions:

Mentality: Attacking
Team shape: Flexible
TI: Retain possession
PI:s: Both Fullbacks got Mark tighter and Ease of tackles, Goalie got Roll it out

So how did it perform? Well, decent enough, but not really as I was hoping... My first 11 games resulted in 4 wins and 7 losses, two of wich in the Carabao Cup (beating Oxford at home, then loosing to Tottenham away). No draws, and looking at the performances it was kind of clear why. The play was open and aggressive. In the games where everything fell into place it was beautiful, the forward players combining really well and goals a plenty. However, when it didn't work (especially during away games), we left huge gaps for the opposition due to the players not tracking back or having to advanced starting positions.

I felt the issue was the defensive shape and started to tinker with the formation. By new years eve, I ended up with a 4-1-4-1-formation that seamed to be working really well:

4-1-4-1.thumb.PNG.cda17c530dc06ff58720a25f324497e2.PNG

Mentality: Standard (or Attacking depending on the strenght of the opposition)
Team shape: Flexible
TI: Retain possession
PI:s: Both Fullbacks got Mark tighter and Ease of tackles, Goalie got Roll it out

So what is the result?

table.thumb.PNG.be3489909478aff0841a48f50daab5a9.PNG

A great second half of the season, ending in a 6 game win streak (including games agains ManU, Arsenal and Watford that I expected to loose), and Swanseas best ever Premier League finish was safe.

So what about "The Swansea way"? Possession and attacking, right?

Well, I'm acutally quite satisfied but it could be better. Some team stats:

Best at hitting target: 1:th, 4, with a shot % of 43 %
Most goals: 8:th, scored 58 goals
Most passes completed: 7:th, 18 221 passes, with a pass completion of 81 %
Avg. possession: 8:th, 51, 74 %

Transfer wise, I did barely anything. The big weakness in the squad was att full back. I got lucky with a couple of the youngsters (Connor Roberts and Aaron lewis, so I got som decent performances out of them as well as some really good potential). Apart from that, i brought in a new left back in january, but not much else. No sense doing a challenge like this if you're going to revamp the entire squad.

Transfers.thumb.PNG.477b95a5164fb577d4bc4296f2d61740.PNG

Hopefully the second season will be even better...

Edited by Klfh

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I like the premise of this thread and having read a couple of the off-shoots, notably from @herne79 and @westy8chimp (both good reads) and I'm inspired to get involved :D

I'll have a think about team to use etc :thup:

e: So I'm a sucker for the Bundesliga - anyone who's ever seen me post about FM in the last few versions will know I play there primarily. For this reason I don't want to take a German team, but there's many tempting options, no least Leipzig and Hoffenheim, two teams who start in the CL (Hoffe in qualifiers) but are predicted 8th and 7th respectively! That's mental! Leipzig won the Bundesliga in my first season with HSV so I reckon they'll be too easy but they come with the bonus of being able to play 442, a formation I never use and wouldn't mind giving a bash.

I've also considered using Fiorentina as on my more recent Torino save, they were challenging the title until about February before a spectacular, and I mean spectacular (I beat them 8-3 in Florence!), implosion saw them not even attain Europe, finishing 8th! I have no idea what their MP is to begin the game but I could see this being fun. 

The other team I'm really considering is Athletic Bilbao. But I never manage in Spain and I've no idea what their team is like these days as I don't follow Spanish football at all, anymore. 

Bit torn on where to start. Gonna load a db up and check out Bilbao before deciding whether to go with them or someone else :)

Edited by JDownie

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On 28/05/2018 at 08:15, Klfh said:

4-1-4-1.thumb.PNG.cda17c530dc06ff58720a25f324497e2.PNG

Cool shape. I loooove the 4-1-4-1 myself. How do you find the use of a Defensive Forward on defend duty? What is your experience with it? It depends on the player of course. :)

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I've had a go at this too. I was attracted to it as I tend not to use that many TIs or PIs as a rule anyway.

Just to give you a bit of background, I normally play two types of save on FM. I start off as Leeds and try to return them to their rightful place at the pinnacle of world football then I play a lower league long term save. On FM16 I too Almancilense of the Portuguese Championship to the Champions League!

This time around, I got bored with my Leeds save after 6 straight league titles and started my long term save. I couldn't decide where to start so I decided to start unemployed as I'd never done that before and see what happened. My aim is to try to get to a big club as fast as possible.

Elgin City in the Scottish Second Division took a punt on me and after a couple of promotions, I ditched them and moved to Partick Thistle, then Rangers where I am now.

I changed to my current tactic for the Partick game on the 16th December and the improvement has been good - wish I'd used it all year!

Results.thumb.png.a585bb7aceeb6d49ced43eff5bab1588.png

I'm close to the end of my second season and this is how the table looks. We're predicted to finish 4th.

Table.thumb.png.cb16db64925ad84f2465664e4ec2a2ea.png

I started off the save with a modified version of Cleon's 532 that he used with Sheffield FC, then changed to a 352 with a regista and then changed again to try to incorporate a libero. I often try to make a libero tactic work but usually only when I've got a really strong squad with world class players, so this is a bit of a departure. This is the tactic :

Tactics.thumb.png.e37e6d247b1212018bf6f6697c54ba7f.png

I've only used PIs on the keeper :

PI.thumb.png.2cb0e0cae6c404b804cab84e0cac4f4f.png

Nothing Earth shattering with the PIs - he's set to distribute the ball to the libero and the other two are to encourage us to play out from the back.

The libero is working reasonably well. I'm not seeing him miles forward but hopefully when he's learnt some PPMs that will change. What I see often that I do like is the libero getting the ball mid way in the opposition half and pinging it first time to one of the wing backs who then crosses into the advanced forward.

This is the player I'm using and I can anticipate Cleon looking at his attributes and saying that the dribbling is too low! I agree but he's only young and I'm training him on that so hopefully he'll improve.

Libero.thumb.png.8756fb71a9b4dad6be31a92c30c36cde.png

I'm pleased with the tactic as a whole and we're scoring a lot of goals. My advanced forward is leading the league in goals (and I don't even think he's that good), my left wing back is leading the league in distance run and my right wing back is joint top with assists.

505663387_Teamstats.thumb.png.2ff1ebd417de0eb5dcfc4a7410877082.png

Looking towards next season, I reckon I need better defenders and I'll be on the look out for anyone who is better suited as the libero.

Edited by macca7292

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Half-season Review: https://community.sigames.com/topic/433557-tactical-challenges-2-tis-and-pis/?do=findComment&comment=11342383

Now here is the final part since I have finished the season:

Season End Review

Club:  Sampdoria

Ranking/Seasonal Expectation/Media Prediction: 2nd/ Top half finish/ 11th

Team Stats: Rank 2nd with 90 points, 78 goals 26 conceded, 9 draw 2 loss 

Mid season projection is 96 points 92 goals 26 conceded, 6 draw 2 loss, so the difference in the 2nd half of the season is the drop in number of goals and more draws. Drop in performance in 2nd half of the season is usual.

image.thumb.png.6c7db6ddd32ab51e22d4997648e7afa1.png

2 Team Instructions: Shorter Passing, Use Tighter Marking (No change from mid-season)

5 Player Instructions: Shoot Less Often (AML), Shoot Less Often (AMC), Shoot Less Often (AMR), Use Tighter Marking  (DM), Distribute to Full Backs (GK) (No change from mid-season)

image.thumb.png.661540d04b32cc7d6450a43316349010.png

There are no changes for tactics - 6-1-3-0 Minimalism Flair. For details please look at the link at the start. Hence I can now focus on:

Analysis

image.thumb.png.9551420680bc05017f157385260cd501.png

Tied in 1st for Most goals on the league. I am rather satisfied with his result since my attacking players are of average ability and also the formation itself is more committed to defense with 7 man in the backfield.

 

image.thumb.png.e54269378e378c5ac42af7cb5ba9c718.png

1st in  Chances Created. Bread and butter for my free-flowing flair football, done reasonably well. 

 

image.thumb.png.bb04d4b33b501a1760c3ac714acd6dc1.png

1st in Goals from corners. Well established set pieces set-ups always yield more goals than AI teams, so this is not a surprise. However I made a stupid mistake that I did not discover until the 3rd last match of the season; I accidentally put 1 less player in the box for attacking corner left, while attacking corner right was setup correctly lol. Potentially missed a few goals there.

 

image.thumb.png.421a5b4cabb8ba82187ecc0457492679.png

2nd in passes completed. I am surprised with this result since Attacking & Shadow Striker combination naturally takes a lot of risks and turnovers are quite common as far as I have observed in the matches. Here I am thinking that TI Shorter Passing is having a huge impact, and i will have to do a comparison testing with Retain Possession to judge the power of Shorter Passing on keeping the ball.

Looking deeper into passing,

image.thumb.png.1d64d1e4d77f8becd58895e1a564f7ff.png

Clearly PI Shoot Less often had made some impact on my first choice Shadow Striker Trio who are highlighted. With the high portion of risky passes being distributed by them, their pass completion ratio is still close to the expectation before the season starts, around 75%. It could also be seen that the other risk taker in the tactic, the IWB(A)s, are also at similar ranges with the SS(A)s which is significantly lower to the key passer of the team the DM(D).

The DM(D) is making all the safe passes needed in the front field with no extra PIs in Shooting and Passing Risks. The passing numbers and completion ratio are crafted by the huge number of passing targets, the distribution of flank players, and one single TI in shorter Passing. Most importantly, these passes made by DM(D) are not conservative. Taking an example from the away match against Atlanta where 71 passes is completed out of 76 (93%) by the Karol Linetty as DM(D), 

image.thumb.png.f651af489d6aa70a356a1a52a0d61d13.png

only 4 were backward passes (0.056%),

image.thumb.png.1df517033b2a3a97166ad28c5d6767d3.pngimage.thumb.png.7e608898b9e45544a0029e0293d7edaa.png

while sideways passes and forward passes have an equal split. 93% completion rate with around half of them being forward passing! That is some good passing with no additional PIs needed.

 

image.thumb.png.ab5a6a0dfabe44d060b1c7778333b7f4.png

1st in Tackles Won Ratio. The lead in not significant, but I noticed that I am leading in Tackles Won Ratio while having a high number of tackles. My only Defensive TI is Use Tighter Marking which does not directly affect tacking. So what did it do?

Taking an example from the away match against Roma that I lost 1-2,

image.thumb.png.40ab850f1aacf68a0c759d0a5bdaa7cf.png

Seems like my interceptions made were in 2 blocks;

image.thumb.png.de4932f69c68b59ddc50772065558fbb.png

and the opponent passing intercepted by my team is also in two blocks. It makes sense since my formation is in 7-3 split blocks. This is also in-line with what I have observed through the whole season. Followed by;

image.thumb.png.4bf6728847c06e7e55f189dad86d86b9.png

1st in Headers won ratio. This is absolutely mysterious because my players are not dominant in the air. Together with the behaviors I observed on the pitch throughout the season, I would like to conclude that the TI Tighter markings with a two block formation naturally wins more headers from opponent long balls and goal kicks.

 

Ending words

Doing this challenge made me understood Shorter Passing and Tighter Marking more. The "less Ti and PI" way is absolutely clear on what each TI does but is also a relatively slow learning process.  Now when have doubts I can set up a experiment with minimal TIs or PIs tactics to test what they actually do by understanding them individually, which I would never have done before trying out this challenge.

Edited by moolochicken
Formatting

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@JDownie im really enjoying my first bundelsiga save in years! Id say RBL might be too easy... The AI smash it with them and as you say FM seem to have underhanded them in terms of media prediction.

How about Frankfurt? I was watching a re-run of the cup final last night (me and my Dad thought it was live until half time magically finished after an ad-break) id imagine they have a realistic MP... No standout players but plenty of known names... Jetro willems... Prince boateng... Ex city legened gelson fernandez :D

 

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On 30/05/2018 at 18:39, Gegenklaus said:

Cool shape. I loooove the 4-1-4-1 myself. How do you find the use of a Defensive Forward on defend duty? What is your experience with it? It depends on the player of course. :)

I've actually grown quite fond of the DF recently as the deeper forward role when needed, both in a pairing togheter with a poacher in a 4-4-2 and as a lone forward, such as in this system. The performance is very dependent on the system, In this save I rotated between Tammy Abraham and Jordan Ayew as my primary forward options. Both players are pacy with lots of work rate. The good thing about this is that they close down the opposition CD:s and GK, wich ment I got a few of those theft goals were we capitalised on a simple mistake. Cheap gols from very little effort (and low risk). I did some rotation with Bony as well, who is more of a natural target man, and did not get any good performances from him.

My forwards stats for the first season:
Jordan Ayew: 26 apps, 11 goals, 4 assists
Tammy Abraham: 20 apps, 6 goals, 2 assists
Wilfried Bony: 14 apps, 0 goals, 1 assist

The system spreads the goals between different players, which is nice because it works against lots of different opposition formations. My attackin threath was my RW and the MEZ. I predominantly played Luciano Narsing in the winger role and Renato Sanches as the mezzalla. Narsing is a beast of a winger with 17 in acceleration and dribbling, 16 in flair and pace and 15 in crossing and first touch. Sanches is an aggressive, physical player with lots of pace and work rate. Often one of those players created the chances for either each other or the ST or LM (Andre Ayew) to finish of.

Their stats:
Luciano Narsing: 26 apps, 4 goals, 14 assists
Renato Sanches: 38 games, 8 goals, 8 assists
Andre Ayew: 22 apps, 9 goals, 1 assist

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2 hours ago, moolochicken said:

Doing this challenge made me understood Shorter Passing and Tighter Marking more. The "less Ti and PI" way is absolutely clear on what each TI does but is also a relatively slow learning process.  Now when have doubts I can set up a experiment with minimal TIs or PIs tactics to test what they actually do by understanding them individually, which I would never have done before trying out this challenge.

Fantastic :applause:.

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32 minutes ago, Klfh said:

I've actually grown quite fond of the DF recently as the deeper forward role when needed, both in a pairing togheter with a poacher in a 4-4-2 and as a lone forward, such as in this system. The performance is very dependent on the system, In this save I rotated between Tammy Abraham and Jordan Ayew as my primary forward options. Both players are pacy with lots of work rate. The good thing about this is that they close down the opposition CD:s and GK, wich ment I got a few of those theft goals were we capitalised on a simple mistake. Cheap gols from very little effort (and low risk). I did some rotation with Bony as well, who is more of a natural target man, and did not get any good performances from him.

My forwards stats for the first season:
Jordan Ayew: 26 apps, 11 goals, 4 assists
Tammy Abraham: 20 apps, 6 goals, 2 assists
Wilfried Bony: 14 apps, 0 goals, 1 assist

The system spreads the goals between different players, which is nice because it works against lots of different opposition formations. My attackin threath was my RW and the MEZ. I predominantly played Luciano Narsing in the winger role and Renato Sanches as the mezzalla. Narsing is a beast of a winger with 17 in acceleration and dribbling, 16 in flair and pace and 15 in crossing and first touch. Sanches is an aggressive, physical player with lots of pace and work rate. Often one of those players created the chances for either each other or the ST or LM (Andre Ayew) to finish of.

Their stats:
Luciano Narsing: 26 apps, 4 goals, 14 assists
Renato Sanches: 38 games, 8 goals, 8 assists
Andre Ayew: 22 apps, 9 goals, 1 assist

Cool to hear. I am playing with Dortmund also using a 4-1-4-1 with a Defensive Forward on support. I really love this role for several reasons: It is naturally a good role to link play - which imo is very much needed for the striker to do in the 4-1-4-1. And the role ask the player to do the simple things - fewer risky passes. It is actually the only striker role on support which does not have More Risky Passes attached and Dribble More. Originally I wanted to use the Complete Forward as I want my striker to roam around, find spaces, plays others in and link the play. But looking at Auba I didnt want him to dribble more. I didnt want him to play more risky passes, but I wanted him to move around like the complete forward does. So I went for the Defensive Forward and really loved it. Now I am starting to experiment using it on Defend Duty to get him even deeper to see How that plays out. That's why I asked. And cool to see the success you are finding and how you keep things really simple. :)

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Just an update to my post above.

After a nine match winning streak we were top, 5 points clear with 3 games left and with a superior goal difference over second placed Hibs.

I was on the verge of breaking out the brandy and cigars but FM had some shocks in store for me. First, both my first choice strikers picked up injuries and are out for the season. Then, we play Hibs away and with a point enough to clinch the title we get hammered six nil, thereby getting rid of my goal difference advantage.

A late penalty in the next game beats Aberdeen and we're left needing a point from the final game, at home to Celtic. 32 mins gone, all going well - we're 2 up and Celtic haven't had a shot. Hibs are drawing 0 - 0 so we're winning the league at a canter.

Fast forward to the 79th minute and it's disaster - Celtic score a third and when I check the Hibs game they've gone one nil up. Season done. I resist the urge to go all out attack and change nothing.

93 mins we equalise and Hibs concede a late equaliser! Champions!

I'm in bits.

1256909500_Finaltable.thumb.png.d25e69d509bb4e641e8c36f64708f6e9.png

Just the cup final to go - not sure my nerves can take it!

Edited by macca7292

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16 minutes ago, macca7292 said:

93 mins we equalise and Hibs concede a late equaliser! Champions!

I'm in bits.

Haha awesome, great job :).

17 minutes ago, macca7292 said:

I was on the verge of breaking out the brandy and cigars but FM had some shocks in store for me.

Manager complacency can ruin a season ;).

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6 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Haha awesome, great job :).

Manager complacency can ruin a season ;).

As soon as I got a news item saying we would break a club record if we won the next game I should've known we'd get battered.

Same with Mebude - get a news item saying he's going to break the club goal scoring record, next game twisted ankle and out for the season!

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6 minutes ago, macca7292 said:

As soon as I got a news item saying we would break a club record if we won the next game I should've known we'd get battered.

Same with Mebude - get a news item saying he's going to break the club goal scoring record, next game twisted ankle and out for the season!

lol, sods law.

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3 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

@JDownie im really enjoying my first bundelsiga save in years! Id say RBL might be too easy... The AI smash it with them and as you say FM seem to have underhanded them in terms of media prediction.

How about Frankfurt? I was watching a re-run of the cup final last night (me and my Dad thought it was live until half time magically finished after an ad-break) id imagine they have a realistic MP... No standout players but plenty of known names... Jetro willems... Prince boateng... Ex city legened gelson fernandez :D

 

Started with Leipzig this morning/afternoon  (I forget) but I had to go out and when I got home my overwhelming feeling was just "meh". I had a full write-up ready to post about my theory behind the roles TIs and PIs, but just no interest. 

But as it happens, I had created a tactic with the idea of the team being very hard to break down but very good at keeping the ball  (think Atletico - if we are offered possession we will take it, if they want it they can have it...good luck :D).

Early signs were good with us winning all of our Pre-season games anywhere from 5-0 to 1-0/2-1. Did lose once to Salzburg though. 

However, the Frankfurt team in real life are known for being very difficult to beat and quite a bitty team, is how I would describe it. Might be a good shout, cheers.

I'm gonna load the game up now, will post when I've sorted my post out... gonna use similar tactics providing the roles fit, but have a similar idea anyway obviously. 

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Okay, so after my interaction with @westy8chimp above I've decided to bin Leipzig and begin this challenge with Frankfurt, who unlike Leipzig's rather unfair MP of 8th, are predicted to finish 11th - we're going to aim for a European spot (which they narrowly missed in real life, finishing 8th), and also try to replicate their fantastic cup success where they smashed Bayern in the final :thup: 

So far it has been quite popular in this thread for other users to use Retain Possession, because it is essentially three shouts in one, a fantastic property when limiting yourself to only 2 TIs. I want to deviate from this somewhat - I want to build a team/tactic that can be staunch in defence and stop anything from coming at them, but can control the game when they do have the ball. What we do on the ball will be a slow, patient game, hopefully good looking on the eye. When we lose the ball I want us to try and win it back quickly, but be defensively responsible - I don't want the team leaving gaps everywhere to be exploited.

The easiest thing to do at this point is show the setup and explain the theory behind it:

94868AC47D3374023FD876BD5892558FA41EC50A 

So off the bat, if we want to be hard to beat, the easiest way to do that is to be Defensive in Mentality. This encourages players to get behind the ball and make it hard for opposition players to break them down. With a 4141, it makes it difficult to play between the lines, and as Pep's Bayern and City sides have proven, the best shape for keeping possession is by default a 4141, although inevitably those players will roam. While I'm not trying to hold onto the ball like a Pep team, I do want us to be sensible with the ball. But if the opportunity to get forward arrives, I want the team to transition quickly, likewise defensively I want everyone getting back. Very Fluid was chosen for this precise reason - what also helps is the ability for players to move outside of their tactical setup. With so many Support roles, I'm going to need players to use their own brain and create something out of nothing every now and again. But despite this, the fundamental idea behind the tactic is simple - hard to break down, sensible with the ball. The primary target is clean sheets. If we are hard to beat, we can beat anyone ourselves. 

Going back to Pep's teams, the key to possession football is a slow and patient build-up. With only 2 TIs to choose from, it's also important we consider the effect of the actual Mentality and how things like Passing, Defensive Line, Tempo etc might work - if we can work these in our favour, then we can easily work with less TIs. The good news is, Defensive mentality automatically encourages a fairly deep Defensive Line and has a Low Tempo - both of these are key in making us difficult to beat. When we have the ball we have to be careful not to give it away, for this reason I want everyone showing for the ball, hence Support overdrive. But not giving the ball away also means I want us to play a Shorter Passing game. This will allow us to build from the back and make our way towards the oppositions third with careful consideration. The downside of the Defensive Mentality however, is that it encourages a very narrow game by default. Unlike Pep's teams which like to stretch the pitch wide, of course. So for that reason, I have instructed the team to Play Much Wider. Using the full extent of our pitch will hopefully create space for the runners in midfield, which brings me nicely onto the PIs:

Across the whole midfield I have used my 5 PIs - each man in the CM strata has Close Down Much More, and of course the BWM/D has that by default. I want my midfield to put in as much effort as possible to win the ball, with the back line holding their position and hopefully not seeing much action thanks to the midfield. Should the midfield be surpassed, the Stopper is there to cut out any attacks before the opposition are into the penalty area. Should all of this aggressive forward pressure from the midfield 5 and the Stopper be too much, then the Cover CB is there to help with that - they are also on that side because of the Complete Wing Back. You may have noticed my only Attack duty is the LB, this is because I want him to stretch the play wide on the left and get in some good crosses. The Inverted Winger will hopefully cut inside creating lots of space for the LB to overlap. 

The other PI used is on the Box to Box Midfielder - he has the Get Further Forward option selected in order to create an extra midfield runner and hopefully make an impact in the final third. The B2B next to the Roaming Playmaker is supposed to be the engine in midfield - both men should be covering every area from one touchline to the other. The problem with the Frankfurt squad is that they don't have the hardest workers - in fact I was very surprised to see they're listed as the 3rd lowest Work Rate in the Bundesliga. I have my work cut out :D In future seasons, I'll hopefully improve the personnel but right now I have to make do with de Guzman and Prince. Who are two very good players... just not lively enough :D In Defensive Mid I've gone with a Ball Winning Midfielder. Perhaps one of the greatest debates in the history of FM is - is a (lone) BWM a viable DM? I believe it is, and I'm aware that is possible, but it is one of the most often argued positions as people believe that a BWM "deviates too much in chasing the ball leaving space". True, but in an aggressive press, isn't this exactly what you want from your DM? Someone to put the boot in and really make an effort to stop an attack. With the Defensive Mentality he's going to be sticking to the central area of the pitch anyway, meaning that especially in systems with a CAM, he will be extremely effective at stopping their (I assume, in general) primary playmaker. 

Frankfurt have quite an old squad, so not the in the greatest of physical shape. The physically impressive players are weak mentally, too. The best RPM player at the club is out for 10 months, too, just to make everything worse :D Overall I'm set for a bigger task than I realised, but I'm looking forward to it. I don't bother playing friendlies and I'll just gauge the tactic over the course of the season and make changes as I see fit. The pre-season is finally over, and the signs are good:

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Despite not playing any top teams, this is a bunch of solid results with a lot of clean sheets. The first two games we suffered late goals from set-pieces - I remembered I hadn't done my set piece tactics. Since corrected them and the results speak for themselves :thup:

We gave up 3 chances in 8 friendlies (one scored). We faced 50 shots over those 8 friendlies, with only 13 of them hitting the target.

Looking forward to seeing how we do against real competition. Been a stroll so far, really don't see it staying that way :D

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3 hours ago, JDownie said:

With only 2 TIs to choose from, it's also important we consider the effect of the actual Mentality and how things like Passing, Defensive Line, Tempo etc might work

Spot on :thup:.

Will be interesting to see how Frankfurt plays out, not a team I've paid too much attention to.

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Thought I'd share some examples of the libero that I mentioned above. I've deliberately not picked a player in the CDM position to give him room to move up into and included a CM on defend duty to provide some cover when he ventures forward. I've also not picked any playmaker roles, as they tend to attract the ball.

This is his passing from the Cup Final :

Passes.thumb.png.b5aba711734735db18a81531d5f9798a.png

The bulk of them are around the dm area but it's the ones in the opposition half that are interesting. My libero, Dylan Slater, has 17 for vision, 16 for decisions and 15 for passing. My interpretation of this is that his high vision enables him to see all available options, his high decisions lets him choose the best option and his high passing enables him to execute the pass.

This is the move that leads to a cross into the box - he receives the ball in space and picks out the wing back :

51593038_linkedevents.thumb.png.4032720c997d9fa9e3915808f7e97a5a.png

What I'd like to see more of is him picking up the ball and driving forward but what he's doing at the moment is good.

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7 hours ago, herne79 said:

Spot on :thup:.

Will be interesting to see how Frankfurt plays out, not a team I've paid too much attention to.

In my HSV save they recently managed to establish themselves as a CL team, but mad things happen on that save - Bayern and Juve are both Europa League teams for example :D

I'm hopefully gonna blast through the season over the next few days :thup:

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