My guide to hoofball

[Peljam]

4 hours ago, Sarl said:

Oh, behold! The magic of hoofball!

I'm playing hoofball with Crusaders from Northern Ireland. It have worked wonders in Europe, where we've qualified for the Europa League group stages. Thank you away goals. Thank you hoofball.

The setup is somewhat the same as Peljams. Only differences as far as I can tell, is that I'm not passing into space, and I haven't asked my players to be more expressive.

In the league I've won 3 and lost 1 game so far. But most league games have been scheduled just 2 days after my European games, so I've had to field some weakened sides in the league so far. That won't change much, now that we're in the group stages, I reckon. Might have to play the reserves in Europe now, since I probably won't get many points in the group stages no matter what. But who knows what the magic of hoofball can lead to?

Some good results there! Hope you're enjoying N.Ireland. Crusaders are pretty decent on mine but not in Europe. They need your tactic!

I've played half a season with Be More Expressive on and I'm now playing the 2nd half with it off to see what difference it might make.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Peljam

[Peljam]

From my games I'm getting the feeling that you can have a few variants of Hoofball that are fairly true to life. Obviously just based on my observations so this could all be wrong but...

Graham Taylor style:

His teams were direct but favoured accurate passes to the body and to space. Relied on fairly athletic forwards and wingers for this to use space. If you have the players for it, using the standard 442 and route one instructions (plus the FB instructions and GK distributing to CB's) plus Pass into Space, you could replicate the high scoring direct style he often used (I think one of his lower league teams ended up with over 100 goals in a season, plus over 100 points if converted for modern rules as this was when a win got 2 points).

Pass into space is controversial but I think it can work if you have the players who can run, can hit the pockets/space. I've found my tactic with Pass into Space can be effective, and I think it is when my forwards have been able to out pace (and out position) the defenders. It doesn't work as well against more physical or deeper defences (in fact if they are playing very deep I would remove pass into space now).

Wimbledon/Crazy Gang Style:

Need to keep get stuck in, mark tight, high urgency in the press, probably higher tempo. And to fit in with the reckless abandon they played with pass into space + be more expressive. Thats the 'Stick it in the Mixer' combo. I feel the team is more like Wimbledon this way (pretty much my original set up). Reckless, fast, dirty. Potentially crude and wasteful.

You would also need a good kicker as a keeper and change the distrubution to TM or over the defence. Keep play for set pieces on and then set up most of them to go to your targetman.

Recruit players with high bravery and aggression. Maybe use the opposition instructions to ensure you target players to hurt/intimidate them.

Bonus points if your targetman is a psychopath.

Bonus points if you use the group mentoring system to either A) Bully new players, or B) Change everyone's personality type to unsporting

Pulisball:

Defensively solid, not massively adventurous. Maybe set the FB's to defensive or remove any instructions that suggest they get forward. Maybe drop the defensive line as Pulis teams (like West brom anyway) don't push the FB's up much. Don't Pass into Space, and Don't be more expressive. Do play for set peices and make sure you tinker with them until you can squeeze a few extra chances out of them (Pulis tends to deliver to the edge of the 6 yard, with 1-3 runners, with some or all being decoys to pull markers away). Get a good long throw set up.

Bonus points if you pick really tall, almost CB-esque, players to be your full backs.

Further bonus point if you go out of you way to recruit players with the long throw trait.

TIFO Pulis Video

Big Sam:

I'm...not sure? He uses a range of formations. Sets up the defense so it's fairly solid. I think he used to try and get the ball into POMO's (Positions Of Maximum Opportunity) - areas on the pitch that would result in better goal scoring chances, usually around the area. I'm not sure how to replicate that in a way that is different from feeding long balls to a targetman?

Edited October 27, 2018 by Peljam

[Atarin]

Allerdyce is a strange one. The assumption would be that, similar to Pulis, he played with a defensive backline but this isn't strictly true. As far as I can remember everywhere he's been he's had at least one very attacking fullback. At Bolton he had Ricardo Gardner on the left who played very aggressively whilst Nicky Hunt would be more conservative on the right. At Blackburn I think he had one of the Olsen twins bombing forward on the left with someone more conservative on the right. At West Ham he had Cresswell bombing on from the left with O'Brien playing more conservatively on the right. At Sunderland had Van Arnholt bombing down the left and on the right he rotated DeAndre Yedlin as an equally attacking right back with Billy Jones who was more defensive. He tried a number of different combos at Palace. At Everton he had Baines attacking down the left and Martina giving more defensive cover on the right.

In midfield he mostly mirrored Pulis. Sometimes two DMs with an attacking CM at others two CMs with an attacking AM. Out wide he began by using AMRs and AMLs (During his spell at Bolton) but over time graduated to pretty consistently using RMs and LMs. Up front he pretty consistently used a big strong type unless he just didn't have one. For example at Sunderland he opted for Defoe and had his wingers try to hit balls low and quick behind the defence for Defoe to nip onto. 

[phnompenhandy]

The Mixer

 

I'm currently reading this The Mixer: The Story of Premier League Tactics, from Route One to False Nines

 

Chapter 9 - Big Sam and Long Balls - fair bit on Pulis in there  

[SmileFaceGamer]

Right. I am inspired. I’m having a few problems trying to get a stuttering Chesterfield rolling, so I guess I’m going to try some good old hoofball. A change from my normal Bielsaball style principles, but I’m not adverse to a long ball so why not give it a go

as a side note, an opinion I hold of training and tactics for football: I belive that if your not spending at least 3/4 hour developing an effective long ball and even set piece tactic, you are missing out hugely. You can get such good chances from it and it can be hugely useful, especially when chasing a game in the last 5 mins or playing a gegenpressing team like liverpool

[SmileFaceGamer]

16 hours ago, Peljam said:

.Bonus points if your targetman is a psychopath.

Can someone tell me if either Denton or Fortunè are a psychopath?

[Atarin]

10 minutes ago, SmileFaceGamer said:

Can someone tell me if either Denton or Fortunè are a psychopath?

In real definitely not. Denton is actually rather timid for a target man imho.

[SmileFaceGamer]

Just now, Atarin said:

In real definitely not. Denton is actually rather timid for a target man imho.

How can you be timid when your bloody 6ft7?

Edited October 27, 2018 by SmileFaceGamer

[Experienced Defender]

20 hours ago, z464 said:

It's my first time to use 3 center backs counter formation .

But you wrote that you were using Control mentality, not Counter? Of course, you can play counter-attacking football with any mentality if you set appropriate instructions, roles and duties, but that's something else.

[Peljam]

10 hours ago, Atarin said:

Allerdyce is a strange one. The assumption would be that, similar to Pulis, he played with a defensive backline but this isn't strictly true. As far as I can remember everywhere he's been he's had at least one very attacking fullback. At Bolton he had Ricardo Gardner on the left who played very aggressively whilst Nicky Hunt would be more conservative on the right. At Blackburn I think he had one of the Olsen twins bombing forward on the left with someone more conservative on the right. At West Ham he had Cresswell bombing on from the left with O'Brien playing more conservatively on the right. At Sunderland had Van Arnholt bombing down the left and on the right he rotated DeAndre Yedlin as an equally attacking right back with Billy Jones who was more defensive. He tried a number of different combos at Palace. At Everton he had Baines attacking down the left and Martina giving more defensive cover on the right.

In midfield he mostly mirrored Pulis. Sometimes two DMs with an attacking CM at others two CMs with an attacking AM. Out wide he began by using AMRs and AMLs (During his spell at Bolton) but over time graduated to pretty consistently using RMs and LMs. Up front he pretty consistently used a big strong type unless he just didn't have one. For example at Sunderland he opted for Defoe and had his wingers try to hit balls low and quick behind the defence for Defoe to nip onto. 

I was thinking about Bolton and Big Sam, and Jay Jay Okocha stuck in my mind. Skewed my perception a bit of the type of players Big Sam tended to go for. Not that having an attacking playmaker can't be done in hoofball just that it doesn't pop into your mind first.

10 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

The Mixer

 

I'm currently reading this The Mixer: The Story of Premier League Tactics, from Route One to False Nines

 

Chapter 9 - Big Sam and Long Balls - fair bit on Pulis in there  

Thanks! I've just gone and bought that. I'm going to skip ahead and then go back. I loved Inverting the Pyramid, and By the Numbers, and Soccernomics. But hoof ball tends to be mentioned only briefly or in the context of Reep, Hughes and Taylor. Others don't often get a look in.

@phnompenhandy

2 hours ago, SmileFaceGamer said:

Right. I am inspired. I’m having a few problems trying to get a stuttering Chesterfield rolling, so I guess I’m going to try some good old hoofball. A change from my normal Bielsaball style principles, but I’m not adverse to a long ball so why not give it a go

as a side note, an opinion I hold of training and tactics for football: I belive that if your not spending at least 3/4 hour developing an effective long ball and even set piece tactic, you are missing out hugely. You can get such good chances from it and it can be hugely useful, especially when chasing a game in the last 5 mins or playing a gegenpressing team like liverpool

I'm struggling a bit with my set piece routines but I think I'm going to gradually get there with them. You're right, you can squeeze goals out of them that can change games/seasons. I'm trying variants that deliver the ball to the TM at the near post, have lots of movement to distact, with another player (usually the other forward) attacking the far post for the flick on. It's a bit chaotic at the moment.

I have noticed an improvement in the throw ins though. I've not got Rory Delap but I think I'm getting more chances from the long throw approach.

[Peljam]

Just finished my 2nd season at Portadown using Hoofball. First full season really.

So 38 league games, and 11 cup/knockout games.

Headlines:

• Predicted to finish 12th (dead last again) but finished 5th.
• Finished with 55 points which was only 4 more than when I had the half season. I had some team issues and I'm not convinced it is fully reflective of the tactic. I had some very error prone defenders, my best keeper was 17, and my 2nd best was 18. My star right back turned out to be a complete cowards etc.
• Won the Mid-Ulster Cup
• My U20's, playing hoofball under the guidance of my youth manager, won the league
• My reserves, playing hoofball under the guidance of my assistant manager, got to the Intermediate Cup final.
• In the league won 16, drew 7, lost 15. Not a great split. PPG of 1.44 for the league
• Scored 57, conceded 59, in the league. My defense was an issue. 7 of those goals came from a defender of keeper making a mistake.
• Across all comps we had 447 shots, 214 on target. About 9 shots and 4 on target per game. Down from last year.
• Goal wise, 32 came from a through or long ball, 10 from a free kick or corner, 19 from a cross, 2 from an opposition mistake, 6 from a short pass and 3 from a medium pass. 0 from square balls. The vast majority of goals are coming from hoofballs, set pieces or crosses. Very few from passing moves (and some of those short and medium pass assists are from when my targetman has nodded the ball down to either the other striker, or back to the midfielder who then short passed to the striker in space). I noticed maybe two 'flowing' short pass moves that resulted in a goal.

Verdict?

We technically did better position wise but performance wise the stats suggest we were worse. Actually in match though we played well. We suffered from my decisions when signing players and some defensive errors. I'm still happy with the hoofball and I think if I improve the defense we will do better next year. The gap between us and the bigger teams is still quite large but we can close it.

Half way through the season I removed be more expressive to see what effect that would have. We attacked a little less but the attacks we made were more typically hoofball - as laid out in the tactic. I started to remove pass into space if I was playing a bigger team with a faster/stronger defense. This helped I think so I'll be removing be more expressive and have a variant of the tactic without pass into space if my strikers are struggling.

I made a few set peices but there seems to be a bug that wipes them out and stops you from loading any saved routines which has made it a bit frustrating. I'll set them up again without saving at the start of the season to see if I can improve things.

 

Long live Hoofball.

[Peljam]

Okay, general queston. What are people's feelings about pitch dimensions for hoofball? I've been keeping mine as standard but I'm wondering if I'm missing a trick here.

 

I'm conflicted - if I choose a shorter pitch then the long balls are easier, in the sense I don't have to kick as far to get to the danger zones.  But...if I have a longer pitch there is more space for my strikers to get and run into and leave the defenders for dead.

[Experienced Defender]

21 minutes ago, Peljam said:

Okay, general queston. What are people's feelings about pitch dimensions for hoofball? I've been keeping mine as standard but I'm wondering if I'm missing a trick here.

 

I'm conflicted - if I choose a shorter pitch then the long balls are easier, in the sense I don't have to kick as far to get to the danger zones.  But...if I have a longer pitch there is more space for my strikers to get and run into and leave the defenders for dead.

If I used a combination of a strong and tall TM on support and quick and technical poacher/AF on attack, I would opt for a longer pitch. In fact, I think that a longer pitch is generally a better choice for hoofball than a short one. I would say long and narrow may be the right choice.

[phnompenhandy]

18 hours ago, Peljam said:

Okay, general queston. What are people's feelings about pitch dimensions for hoofball? I've been keeping mine as standard but I'm wondering if I'm missing a trick here.

 

I'm conflicted - if I choose a shorter pitch then the long balls are easier, in the sense I don't have to kick as far to get to the danger zones.  But...if I have a longer pitch there is more space for my strikers to get and run into and leave the defenders for dead.

The simple reason I use hoofball is because my players are rubbish - rubbish at passing and rubbish at defending. Therefore, I opt for a minimum-sized pitch - less distance for passes to go astray, less space between defenders, and less length to hoof the ball, giving the striker(s) more chance to get to it.

[z464]

On 27/10/2018 at 14:07, Experienced Defender said:

But you wrote that you were using Control mentality, not Counter? Of course, you can play counter-attacking football with any mentality if you set appropriate instructions, roles and duties, but that's something else.

Yes, I'm using standard/control base on my formation to play counter attack .  

[Peljam]

18 hours ago, z464 said:

Yes, I'm using standard/control base on my formation to play counter attack .  

Are you using FM19? You can use the In Transition tactical instructions to create the counter attacking football. If you look at the direct counter pre-set tactical style you might find that useful for how to set up the transition.

[Peljam]

On 29/10/2018 at 19:42, Experienced Defender said:

If I used a combination of a strong and tall TM on support and quick and technical poacher/AF on attack, I would opt for a longer pitch. In fact, I think that a longer pitch is generally a better choice for hoofball than a short one. I would say long and narrow may be the right choice.

This is what I eventually went for with Portadown as I had a good level of pace up front.

On 30/10/2018 at 14:00, phnompenhandy said:

The simple reason I use hoofball is because my players are rubbish - rubbish at passing and rubbish at defending. Therefore, I opt for a minimum-sized pitch - less distance for passes to go astray, less space between defenders, and less length to hoof the ball, giving the striker(s) more chance to get to it.

And this is why I've gone for a shorter now I've moved on a to a team that is much worse than Portadown (it all went horribly wrong). I have less space so there are fewer long longs over the top to run on to but my TM is getting more involved because my less able players can still get the ball to them.

Width is still confusing me though. Going narrow makes it easier for me to defend and I can still play the ball forward centrally. But it seems to lessen the impact of my wingers (understandably) who can actually be quite useful in putting it in the mixer (Plan A boot it forward, Plan B boot it to the wingers who then boot it centrally).

If I ever get to a team/league with the playes and resources I am tempted to use a very narrow pitch and play a 4222 (two in the DM strata, two in the CM strata) with the CMs advancing or drifting forward and wide. But I don't have the players for that.

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, Peljam said:

Width is still confusing me though. Going narrow makes it easier for me to defend and I can still play the ball forward centrally. But it seems to lessen the impact of my wingers (understandably) who can actually be quite useful in putting it in the mixer (Plan A boot it forward, Plan B boot it to the wingers who then boot it centrally).

If I played hoofball on a narrow pitch with a 442 formation, I'd rather use my fullbacks to provide most of the crosses from deeper positions, whereas wingers (i.e. players in wide midfield positions) would be told to drift more inside (either as inverted wingers or wide midfielders/wide playmakers). Alternatively, one WM could be a classic winger, and the other either an IW or WM/WP. 

[z464]

4 hours ago, Peljam said:

Are you using FM19? You can use the In Transition tactical instructions to create the counter attacking football. If you look at the direct counter pre-set tactical style you might find that useful for how to set up the transition.

Nah , I'm still on FM18 . 

[Scoham]

On 29/10/2018 at 19:16, Peljam said:

Okay, general queston. What are people's feelings about pitch dimensions for hoofball? I've been keeping mine as standard but I'm wondering if I'm missing a trick here.

 

I'm conflicted - if I choose a shorter pitch then the long balls are easier, in the sense I don't have to kick as far to get to the danger zones.  But...if I have a longer pitch there is more space for my strikers to get and run into and leave the defenders for dead.

I go with the minimum size, since hoofball is about being horrible to play against. You want to stop passing teams from playing by reducing their space.

It can also help when attacking, long throws for example don’t need a player win such a high long throws rating on a small pitch.

However in some cases your players and tactics might suit a bigger pitch better. It’s the same with tactics, there’s more than one way to make hoofball successful.

[Scoham]

Stick it in the mixer!

 

[phnompenhandy]

I'm going to make a longer post shortly, but in brief, I've been spending the last day testing all the FM19 set tactics with my lower league side. The Tiki-takas and Gegenpressing are ridiculously overegged for that level, but Route One does exactly what it should. Concede possession, lump the ball aimlessly up the park meaning it's a low-percentage game. Awful quality, but fun!

[Peljam]

2 hours ago, Scoham said:

Stick it in the mixer!

 

It’s just like watching FM! Scored a few like that.

52 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

I'm going to make a longer post shortly, but in brief, I've been spending the last day testing all the FM19 set tactics with my lower league side. The Tiki-takas and Gegenpressing are ridiculously overegged for that level, but Route One does exactly what it should. Concede possession, lump the ball aimlessly up the park meaning it's a low-percentage game. Awful quality, but fun!

It is very ronseal. I’ve not tried many of the other presets but route one does what it says on the tin.

I also like that it has realistic flaws. If you’re playing against a team that can retain possession and deal with the ball on the air fairly well then you’re going to take a beating.

[phnompenhandy]

I've written a fuller report on my experience with the pre-set tactics here;

Pre-set tactics with a lower league team.

[dannyfc]

How do you guys avoid your leading strikers getting isolated?

I've tried using a TM(S) with an Advanced Striker, but when the ball breaks he's miles away from him down the field.

[Experienced Defender]

13 minutes ago, dannyfc said:

How do you guys avoid your leading strikers getting isolated?

I've tried using a TM(S) with an Advanced Striker, but when the ball breaks he's miles away from him down the field.

It's hard to say without more info about your tactic overall, but if you play hoofball, I think a poacher is a better choice than AF for a TM's partner in attack. A narrower width is also recommendable for this style of play, though I'm not sure that alone would solve your problem with the AF.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Experienced Defender

[Scoham]

10 hours ago, dannyfc said:

How do you guys avoid your leading strikers getting isolated?

I've tried using a TM(S) with an Advanced Striker, but when the ball breaks he's miles away from him down the field.

Have you checked they don’t have any PPMs that are partly causing that? For example if the target man has “comes deep to get ball”.

You can also try playing them both on an attacking duty.

[Atarin]

Typically route one teams played with a very high line. This helped to compress the side into quite a compact unit meaning flick ons and knock downs had a far better chance of finding a team mate. 

[Peljam]

I’ve only really tried combining the TMs with either a pressing forward or a poacher.

I tend to use a high line of engagement as well

[Scoham]

Moving in the right direction... our height difference being reported in the media.

[Scoham]

It's also worth trying to find your own Rory Delap...

 

[infisert]

I am attempting a style very close to this in my 1860 München save. After 16 games in the league with this style I am in 2nd place.

 

However, it is not all rosy. While at home I am 7-1-0 with a a goal difference of 20-5, I struggle away from home with a much more modest 2-5-1 and goal difference of 14-10.

To be honest, I was kind of expecting it to be the other way around

I have tried tinkering with the line of engagement, maybe if I pull that back a little and pass into space? I have also tried changing one of my wingers to wide midfielder.

 

I have also noticed in the last 2 games that my set piece routines are not followed by all my players. On long throw-ins my CD comes short to the trow instead of being in the box. On corners, my winger marking the keeper comes running out to be a short option just before the corner is taken  Can this be intentional, or should I report it as a bug? The players are familiar with the tactic, if that matters.

[Peljam]

3 hours ago, Scoham said:

It's also worth trying to find your own Rory Delap...

 

Nice Rory Mk2! You'll be getting a few extra goals this season.

I'm at East Fife now and I've got our own versions on each wing taking the long throws. I'm scoring some very similar goals. Long throw to TM at near post or centre for the flick on. I'm maybe 12 games into the season, league and cup, and I'm sure I've scored about 3-4 goals from the long throws. I've also had about 3 disallowed though as my players are vulnerable to the offside trap at the point of the flick on! But still, it's beautiful to see.

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Peljam

[Peljam]

1 hour ago, infisert said:

I am attempting a style very close to this in my 1860 München save. After 16 games in the league with this style I am in 2nd place.

 

However, it is not all rosy. While at home I am 7-1-0 with a a goal difference of 20-5, I struggle away from home with a much more modest 2-5-1 and goal difference of 14-10.

To be honest, I was kind of expecting it to be the other way around

I have tried tinkering with the line of engagement, maybe if I pull that back a little and pass into space? I have also tried changing one of my wingers to wide midfielder.

 

I have also noticed in the last 2 games that my set piece routines are not followed by all my players. On long throw-ins my CD comes short to the trow instead of being in the box. On corners, my winger marking the keeper comes running out to be a short option just before the corner is taken  Can this be intentional, or should I report it as a bug? The players are familiar with the tactic, if that matters.

That's a great home record!

Maybe rather than passing into space and attacking more away you would benefit from improving your defense away? 14 goals in 8 games isn't bad in terms of goals scored but cutting out a few goals conceded would squeeze out a few more points for you. You've conceded twice as many goals away as you have at home.

When I play away against bigger teams I sometimes change by FB's from support to defend, but keep the cross from deep/aim at targetman instructions on them. There's less space behind them for the opposition to exploit but they still cross from deep and provide through balls/long balls.

 

[infisert]

11 hours ago, Peljam said:

That's a great home record!

Maybe rather than passing into space and attacking more away you would benefit from improving your defense away? 14 goals in 8 games isn't bad in terms of goals scored but cutting out a few goals conceded would squeeze out a few more points for you. You've conceded twice as many goals away as you have at home.

When I play away against bigger teams I sometimes change by FB's from support to defend, but keep the cross from deep/aim at targetman instructions on them. There's less space behind them for the opposition to exploit but they still cross from deep and provide through balls/long balls.

 

Thanks for the tip, that does sound like it might help. I will try that going forward 

[infisert]

On 06/11/2018 at 02:32, Peljam said:

That's a great home record!

Maybe rather than passing into space and attacking more away you would benefit from improving your defense away? 14 goals in 8 games isn't bad in terms of goals scored but cutting out a few goals conceded would squeeze out a few more points for you. You've conceded twice as many goals away as you have at home.

When I play away against bigger teams I sometimes change by FB's from support to defend, but keep the cross from deep/aim at targetman instructions on them. There's less space behind them for the opposition to exploit but they still cross from deep and provide through balls/long balls.

 

So I just wanted to say thanks again for the tip. While my home form suffered a slight dip after the winter break, my away form is enormously improved. With 4 games to play now, I need 1 point to secure 2nd place.

My away record after restricting the full backs away from home is 5-2-2 so my total away record is currently at 7-7-3.

 

I have also found success raising my tempo and defensive line when chasing a goal - though I do not dare do this unless my fast CD is on the pitch (I only have the one T_T).

 

Now if only I didn't have a ridiculous Braunschweig in this division...

[Peljam]

4 hours ago, infisert said:

So I just wanted to say thanks again for the tip. While my home form suffered a slight dip after the winter break, my away form is enormously improved. With 4 games to play now, I need 1 point to secure 2nd place.

My away record after restricting the full backs away from home is 5-2-2 so my total away record is currently at 7-7-3.

 

I have also found success raising my tempo and defensive line when chasing a goal - though I do not dare do this unless my fast CD is on the pitch (I only have the one T_T).

 

Now if only I didn't have a ridiculous Braunschweig in this division...

Awesome Glad it helped. There's nothing you can do about Braunschweig though, they've stormed to the title. 2nd place is great. I get the feeling 73pts might be enough for the title some seasons?

[Pedroig]

4 hours ago, infisert said:

So I just wanted to say thanks again for the tip. While my home form suffered a slight dip after the winter break, my away form is enormously improved. With 4 games to play now, I need 1 point to secure 2nd place.

My away record after restricting the full backs away from home is 5-2-2 so my total away record is currently at 7-7-3.

 

I have also found success raising my tempo and defensive line when chasing a goal - though I do not dare do this unless my fast CD is on the pitch (I only have the one T_T).

 

Now if only I didn't have a ridiculous Braunschweig in this division...

I have a Rostock save and Braunshweig sniped 1st from me in the last three games.  86 point to 85 points.

Staying up is a challenge due to less than 100k wage budget with no transfer budget.

[Peljam]

Right. I've bounced around teams a bit trying to iron out my hoofball. I've had a few terrible starts at the likes of Scarborough and Grantham were I recruited badly and just went a bit nuts with the formations (ending up with a flat 5122 that was pants). I then had some success at Portadown (1 FA cup, 2 minor regional cups) but then hit a roadblock when I had a really unlucky run of results. The tactic was okay I was just powerless to stop some of the goals against me. I then went to Cobh Ramblers, lost out on a playoff place (we were predicted bottom) and won a minor regional cup (but against a top flight side).

I ended up a East Fife in the Ladbrokes League 2. We were predicted 10th, which is bottom

Praise Hoofball!

I was fortunate in arriving at a team that had a decent keeper, and two decent centrebacks for me to build the team from. As you can see in the table our defence was tight, but we weren't prolific up front. We created chances but one on one we were wasteful and I think that's more a reflection of the limited composure of our strikers than the tactic itself. A pacey composed striker and a slightly more mobile TM will do the trick (if I can get any to join).

We had a lot of 1-0's. The chances almost entirely came from through balls/long balls, crosses or set peices (usually indirectly).

For example...

 

Two long throw routines, dedicated to the throw in God himself Rory Delap. I'm sure we squeezed an extra 4-5 goals out over the course of the season. Usually the ball got to TM who flicked it on to one of the waiting or attacking players to nod in/tap in. We also had about the same number disallowed though as some defences stepped forwards and left me with 2-3 players stood offside waiting for the flick on. I used a narrow pitch this season and we turned a lot of throw ins into attack. It got to a point where I prefered the throw ins to a corner kick.

Corners and free kicks followed a similar pattern. Get it to the TM or best header for a flick on. Chaos and crowding in the box for the scraps. I did have some issues setting the taker though, at one point my TM ended up taking a lot of them without me realising which ruined things for a bit.

Importantly, for other style considerations, we were close to the bottom for pass completion and possession. Near the top for fouls, tackles and headers. Interestingly my left back was 1st for cross completion and these seemed to come from quite deep. My right back was 4th, and back up right back was 7th.

 

Tactics:

This is what I've settled on.

 

My orignal Portadown version was more expressive and passed into space. I removed these based on what was mentioned in the thread ( @Experienced Defender) and it made a huge difference to the defence. With more expressive on, and pass into space on, it was real gung ho long ball. Aiming to score more than conceeded. My defense and keeper couldn't do it. This was more structured and kept it solid at the back.

Additional PI's included shoot less often for everyone in the midfield but the attacking right winger. The fullbacks had cross from deep and aim for target man.

 

When I needed to protect a lead or or be more cautious I changed the support role for the full backs to defend which kept them back and compact with less space to exploit behind them but still left them with the cross from deep/aim at targetman PI's. When I was desperate to hold onto a lead I changed them to no-nonsene full backs. Very solid but very much a shut up shop approach. They offered a lot less going forward.

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Peljam

[infisert]

10 hours ago, Peljam said:

Awesome Glad it helped. There's nothing you can do about Braunschweig though, they've stormed to the title. 2nd place is great. I get the feeling 73pts might be enough for the title some seasons?

I beat them at home, and they only lost one other game in the league all season long. Looking at the quality around the league, I think that you just have to accept that the teams relegated from the league above are a class apart. I assume 73 points will be enough to get promoted most years, though. I hope hoofball keeps me from getting relegated immediately

10 hours ago, Pedroig said:

I have a Rostock save and Braunshweig sniped 1st from me in the last three games.  86 point to 85 points.

Staying up is a challenge due to less than 100k wage budget with no transfer budget.

Yeah, my wage budget is at 57k, but I have been able to wheel and deal my way to 71k of transfer spending. It's a struggle, because while most of my starting 11 is decent, I have to bring 4 german U23s on match day. I have 3 of these who have been on the bench every game, but that I don't trust. It really narrows the options when my bench only has 3 viable subs.

9 hours ago, Peljam said:

Right. I've bounced around teams a bit trying to iron out my hoofball. I've had a few terrible starts at the likes of Scarborough and Grantham were I recruited badly and just went a bit nuts with the formations (ending up with a flat 5122 that was pants). I then had some success at Portadown (1 FA cup, 2 minor regional cups) but then hit a roadblock when I had a really unlucky run of results. The tactic was okay I was just powerless to stop some of the goals against me. I then went to Cobh Ramblers, lost out on a playoff place (we were predicted bottom) and won a minor regional cup (but against a top flight side).

I ended up a East Fife in the Ladbrokes League 2. We were predicted 10th, which is bottom

Praise Hoofball!

I was fortunate in arriving at a team that had a decent keeper, and two decent centrebacks for me to build the team from. As you can see in the table our defence was tight, but we weren't prolific up front. We created chances but one on one we were wasteful and I think that's more a reflection of the limited composure of our strikers than the tactic itself. A pacey composed striker and a slightly more mobile TM will do the trick (if I can get any to join).

We had a lot of 1-0's. The chances almost entirely came from through balls/long balls, crosses or set peices (usually indirectly).

For example...

Two long throw routines, dedicated to the throw in God himself Rory Delap. I'm sure we squeezed an extra 4-5 goals out over the course of the season. Usually the ball got to TM who flicked it on to one of the waiting or attacking players to nod in/tap in. We also had about the same number disallowed though as some defences stepped forwards and left me with 2-3 players stood offside waiting for the flick on. I used a narrow pitch this season and we turned a lot of throw ins into attack. It got to a point where I prefered the throw ins to a corner kick.

Corners and free kicks followed a similar pattern. Get it to the TM or best header for a flick on. Chaos and crowding in the box for the scraps. I did have some issues setting the taker though, at one point my TM ended up taking a lot of them without me realising which ruined things for a bit.

Importantly, for other style considerations, we were close to the bottom for pass completion and possession. Near the top for fouls, tackles and headers. Interestingly my left back was 1st for cross completion and these seemed to come from quite deep. My right back was 4th, and back up right back was 7th.

 

Tactics:

This is what I've settled on.

My orignal Portadown version was more expressive and passed into space. I removed these based on what was mentioned in the thread ( @Experienced Defender) and it made a huge difference to the defence. With more expressive on, and pass into space on, it was real gung ho long ball. Aiming to score more than conceeded. My defense and keeper couldn't do it. This was more structured and kept it solid at the back.

Additional PI's included shoot less often for everyone in the midfield but the attacking right winger. The fullbacks had cross from deep and aim for target man.

 

When I needed to protect a lead or or be more cautious I changed the support role for the full backs to defend which kept them back and compact with less space to exploit behind them but still left them with the cross from deep/aim at targetman PI's. When I was desperate to hold onto a lead I changed them to no-nonsene full backs. Very solid but very much a shut up shop approach. They offered a lot less going forward.

Wow, those are solid stats! Congratulations. Conceding 29 in 36 is pretty great  I had almost no 1-0 games myself, but that is probably because 1860 are tipped 6th of 20 in 3.liga. I assume I just have better players than you, compared to the league I am in. That will probably change, now that I have been promoted :/

 

Peljam, do those set pieces actually behave like they should in-engine? I have set up routines as well, but it seems like my team uses the default routines instead. It's really obvious, since my CDs stay back on long throws and my "mark keeper" player on corners just comes short. Turns out the only person doing what he is supposed to is the taker. I didn't even bother with setting up free kicks after that disappointment.

Fortunately, my very own Rory Delap imitation - who was already at the club - still manages to generate a lot of good situations from his throws. Only 3 assists, but most of them are flicked on or fought over. Even with my routines not working, I also think I prefer throwing to corners  

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by infisert

[FMunderachiever]

I just wonder if people put much time into set piece routines on the game.

 

Ive always wanted to build a successful hoofball tactic but i feel one area of the game i dont explore enough is corner and throw in routines which are essential for hoofball

[Peljam]

24 minutes ago, infisert said:

Peljam, do those set pieces actually behave like they should in-engine? I have set up routines as well, but it seems like my team uses the default routines instead. It's really obvious, since my CDs stay back on long throws and my "mark keeper" player on corners just comes short. Turns out the only person doing what he is supposed to is the taker. I didn't even bother with setting up free kicks after that disappointment.

Fortunately, my very own Rory Delap imitation - who was already at the club - still manages to generate a lot of good situations from his throws. Only 3 assists, but most of them are flicked on or fought over. Even with my routines not working, I also think I prefer throwing to corners  

 

 

I think there was a bug in the beta that meant if you loaded a routine it just changed to the default sometimes. I had that happen a lot. Less so now I think it's the full release but to be safe I check the routines from time to time to make sure they've not changed.

They generally work as planned, or at least they attempt it. The issue is when the throw in taker (or free kick taker) is wrong. Either because of a substitution or because the main taker list has overridden the instructions in the routine. The list of takers seems to take prority over the routine so I've had to make sure I only have the players I want taking it. I've removed my TM for all the lists to be safe even though they are okay at free kicks. I had a few games where my TM was taking the free kicks which meant there was no TM in the box to actually hoof it to and flick on.

I think the only thing to do is check the set piece taker list and routines on a regular basis.

I love the fighting and scramble after the flick ons. It's a massive leveler - a team can be above you in the league but be brought back down to earth by a fight in the box for a scrappy flicked on ball. I think we only had two direct goals scored from the long throw, everything else is from the flick on so I guess would count as a short pass? This saddens me but I do love seeing a highlight or two everygame of chaos.

[Peljam]

4 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

I just wonder if people put much time into set piece routines on the game.

 

Ive always wanted to build a successful hoofball tactic but i feel one area of the game i dont explore enough is corner and throw in routines which are essential for hoofball

To be honest this is probably the first time I've done anything with set pieces since maybe FM13. Past five versions I think I've just left as the defaults because it didn't feel like I could change enough or get them to work the way I wanted. But for FM19 they have been great. I'm not scoring huge amounts more (I'm not getting DC's on 20 goals a season like the exploits of old) but they look like I want them to.

The player coming short sometimes draws out a defender, the ball goes in for the flick on, chaos happens. It doesn't matter if there is a goal it just feels good that they're doing what they are told.

I think they might have added a deeper indirect free kick option as well which is useful. A little less accurate and controlled but you can still stick it in the mixer.

 

Overall I think it's worth the time. A few extra goals could be a few extra points which makes the difference at the end of the season. I think I won two games through throw in goals. If I had drawn them I would have been 2nd.

[Peljam]

https://strikerless.com/2018/11/09/do-you-even-delap/

 

Well timed ong throw article. I’ve used these routines as I’ve got my own but it’s very similar.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Peljam

[witticism]

Finally something to contribute, decided to try my hand at this:
 

It's not quite  the whole nine yards hoofball but it has gotten me up to the top Norwegian division, only player instructions are:
 

BBM:
Pass Shorter
Get Further Forward

DLP:
More Direct Passes
Take More Risks

Fullbacks:
Cross to Target Man

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by witticism

[infisert]

On 09/11/2018 at 21:11, Peljam said:

https://strikerless.com/2018/11/09/do-you-even-delap/

 

Well timed ong throw article. I’ve used these routines as I’ve got my own but it’s very similar.

I quite prefer a solid Delap over the more "en vogue" overlap and underlap.

 

20 hours ago, witticism said:

Finally something to contribute, decided to try my hand at this:
 

It's not quite  the whole nine yards hoofball but it has gotten me up to the top Norwegian division, only player instructions are:
 

BBM:
Pass Shorter
Get Further Forward

DLP:
More Direct Passes
Take More Risks

Fullbacks:
Cross to Target Man

 

Good job How is this working for you in the Tippeliga?

[witticism]

1 hour ago, infisert said:

How is this working for you in the Tippeliga?

Not terribly well, couldnt land the requisite talent at the wide positions so I moved to a 442 diamond to survive. The squad registration constraints make things even more difficult!

[Peljam]

15 hours ago, witticism said:

Not terribly well, couldnt land the requisite talent at the wide positions so I moved to a 442 diamond to survive. The squad registration constraints make things even more difficult!

Do you still have the ball playing defender/CB? How are they doing? Are they a good source of long balls? I've never had the players for it, not yet at least, but I'd like to try it.

I think getting the right players for the positions is key. I know that sounds a bit obvious but I think hoofball is very dependant on having the right players for the right job. It's not about having a great players, but it is about having a great fit for the role if that makes sense. A lot of my players would struggle to get into other squads but because they are playing a role they are made for they are performing above and beyond what their base ability/overall attributes would suggest.

 

[witticism]

6 hours ago, Peljam said:

Do you still have the ball playing defender/CB? How are they doing? Are they a good source of long balls? I've never had the players for it, not yet at least, but I'd like to try it.

 

I still field it occasionally:

Key
Green = Completed
Orange = Lost

That's an example, you can see the intent is there.

My non BPD for comparison:

 

BPD In question:

His only assist in the league is this:

 

Which it's a perfect storm of a ball playing cb, a high line and a striker who likes to beat the offside trap.

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by witticism
Added Gif

[Peljam]

4 hours ago, witticism said:

I still field it occasionally:

Key
Green = Completed
Orange = Lost

That's an example, you can see the intent is there.

My non BPD for comparison:

 

BPD In question:

His only assist in the league is this:

 

Which it's a perfect storm of a ball playing cb, a high line and a striker who likes to beat the offside trap.

 

Nice assist! My no-nonsense CB's are similar in terms of assists I think. They've got 2 each this season. It was the same the previous season as well so they're not a massive creative force. At least in terms of direct assists. I'd be interested in seeing the Assist Assist stat (2nd assist in some sports?). I don't think FM records that. Maybe the key pass is the closest? I'm assuming a key pass is one that leads to a goal or chance.