My guide to hoofball

[OrientTillIDie]

I’m into October on a Port Vale save and I’m under a bit of pressure to save my job. My tactic was very similar to @johnnyyakuza78anyway but I switched to Defensive Wingers and things picked up a bit. Went on a six game unbeaten run up to 12th but since then nothing is going my way. In my last two games, I’ve been 2-0 up and defended stoutly all game, only to concede three goals in the last 10 minutes which prompted me to save and exit to give myself a breather! 

The conceding of these goals are frustrating me because, on the Match Engine at least, it looks like stupid errors that are costing me. I’m forcing the opposition wide but my defenders aren’t challenging the crosses or heading the ball away. My wingers haven’t achieved a rating higher than 6.6 all season. My full backs are the same. I’m creating chances and defending well generally but I can’t seem to hang on to a result at the moment. Down in 19th and second favourite in the league for the sack. I fear I may not get to next summer to bring in the players I actually want.

[johnnyyakuza78]

32 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:

To be honest the striker movement works really well but the rest of the tactic is very sketchy

I took your advice and I switch to balanced when falling behind and it works so much better but obviously its a little against what i'm trying to achieve.  That said my other TI's and roles are ultra defensive

In terms of the LOE I don't really have much comparison as i've never tinkered with it as I didn't see the point really if we're going to close down less and stay on feet.  I guess I was hoping to minimise the passing options with good positioning forcing them to go long where my 4 defenders (all natural CB's) will head the ball away.  It's an area of concern though as they do get through us pretty easily although 9 times out of 10 they are forced wide and crosses are charged down by either the DW or NFB who often double up on wingers.  If crosses do come in then they are usually headed away easily.

The trouble is that it's wave after wave of attack and we often concede to long shots so the tactic needs a lot of tinkering

The DW on defend duty works really well because the PF drifts wide so he has the option of hitting the target man, playing into the channels or the cross field switch to the other DW who is often in acres of space (albeit a bit deep for my liking), the defend duty helps as it prevents him occupying the same space as the PF

The biggest revelation has been the left sided DW who often has acres of space to run into because of the overload on the right

I've found my most effective tinkering on the go to be changing the defensive width and moving up to balanced

I've currently played 6 and my record is 2-2-2, with both losses and one draw coming at home so either the small pitch isn't helping or it works better against teams that attack more

I'm predicted to finish 18th and I currently sit in 12th so it's a pleasing start 

I'm really enjoying the challenge to be honest it's fun remaining true to the ethos 

Yeah I think the balancing with these types of tactics is the real key. If you go too passive and too defensive then eventually they will find a way through. Thats why I think a higher LOE when under press is helpful.

Also in terms of pressing, I think that it can be helpful to press a bit more rather than less. I notice that direct counter preset has a pressing intensity of 'more' and if you watch Burnley they will press intensively in their own half, so they aren't completely passive. It's something I'm not completely sure as to what the right answer is, but some pressing somewhere is useful. You need to be able to win the ball back somehow.

Also, I think this tactic is highly reliant on the right players. Playing narrow defensively means you need very tall and strong defenders with good mentals. The strikers also have be very good at their job because they are your real goal outlet. I don't think I've had many goals come from midfielders since using this tactic, only a couple from defenders from set pieces. 

But yeah, in some ways the challenge isn't about winning, but creating an identity.

 

[johnnyyakuza78]

2 minutes ago, OrientTillIDie said:

I’m into October on a Port Vale save and I’m under a bit of pressure to save my job. My tactic was very similar to @johnnyyakuza78anyway but I switched to Defensive Wingers and things picked up a bit. Went on a six game unbeaten run up to 12th but since then nothing is going my way. In my last two games, I’ve been 2-0 up and defended stoutly all game, only to concede three goals in the last 10 minutes which prompted me to save and exit to give myself a breather! 

The conceding of these goals are frustrating me because, on the Match Engine at least, it looks like stupid errors that are costing me. I’m forcing the opposition wide but my defenders aren’t challenging the crosses or heading the ball away. My wingers haven’t achieved a rating higher than 6.6 all season. My full backs are the same. I’m creating chances and defending well generally but I can’t seem to hang on to a result at the moment. Down in 19th and second favourite in the league for the sack. I fear I may not get to next summer to bring in the players I actually want.

Are you making any changes during the end of games? What are your players body language looking like?

Usually by about the 75th min I will often swap to hold shape and slow pace. There doesn't seem to be much point in hoofing it long only to have it come back to you so often at the end of the game if you are already 2-0 up.
I also have a third tactic which is a park the bus tactic for the end of games, which I occasionally use. It is very similar but just moving to a 451 with a DM as anchor man and changing the striker to PF Defend. I slow the pace and increase time wasting. It will often be able to hold onto leads. 

[OrientTillIDie]

2 minutes ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Are you making any changes during the end of games? What are your players body language looking like?

Usually by about the 75th min I will often swap to hold shape and slow pace. There doesn't seem to be much point in hoofing it long only to have it come back to you so often at the end of the game if you are already 2-0 up.
I also have a third tactic which is a park the bus tactic for the end of games, which I occasionally use. It is very similar but just moving to a 451 with a DM as anchor man and changing the striker to PF Defend. I slow the pace and increase time wasting. It will often be able to hold onto leads. 

I usually lower the tempo, increase time wasting and take off counter, so maybe adding in hold shape might be useful. I might set up a tactic that’s even more defensive specifically to see games out because I’ve only got two tactics set up at the moment. 

[johnnyyakuza78]

4 minutes ago, OrientTillIDie said:

I usually lower the tempo, increase time wasting and take off counter, so maybe adding in hold shape might be useful. I might set up a tactic that’s even more defensive specifically to see games out because I’ve only got two tactics set up at the moment. 

Give it a try, I think having a DM can be kind of useful in those situations, not just to put in tackles in front of defence but also to just hold onto the  ball a bit more.

I sacrifice long ball purism for anti football lack of ambition if it means keeping a clean sheet 

[Finchbox]

Have a read of this thread:

Excellent thread about hoofball, I remember being inspired to do a hoofball save after reading this a couple of years ago.

[pezza96]

So i have decided to recreate Pulisball with Ado den Haag, we have 3 strikers all over 6'3. I am thinking of 

Gk-d

FB-s NCB CB LFB

Wm-s bwm-d cm-s iw-a

Am-A

TM-A

Defensive mentality 

More direct passing

Counter

Lower LOE 

Keeping it simple to start with

[pezza96]

2 hours ago, pezza96 said:

So i have decided to recreate Pulisball with Ado den Haag, we have 3 strikers all over 6'3. I am thinking of 

Gk-d

FB-s NCB CB LFB

Wm-s bwm-d cm-s iw-a

Am-A

TM-A

Defensive mentality 

More direct passing

Counter

Lower LOE 

Keeping it simple to start with

So unfortunately despite having the players to make it work, my short test was not successful, players still dally on the ball instead of getting it forward as id like. I find it very hard to get any attacking threat on a lower mentality

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, pezza96 said:

So unfortunately despite having the players to make it work, my short test was not successful, players still dally on the ball instead of getting it forward as id like

That's probably due to your defensive team mentality, because lower mentalities mean slower attacking transitions (with all else being equal). So either up the mentality or increase the tempo (and potentially also passing to extremely direct). Early crosses may also help. 

And given that it's a 4411 (not 442), maybe SS instead of AMat could also be an option to think about.

[pezza96]

14 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

That's probably due to your defensive team mentality, because lower mentalities mean slower attacking transitions (with all else being equal). So either up the mentality or increase the tempo (and potentially also passing to extremely direct). Early crosses may also help. 

And given that it's a 4411 (not 442), maybe SS instead of AMat could also be an option to think about.

Cheers, if you were looking to recreate a longball style yourself what mentality would you use? Do you think long term it could be successful in game 

[Experienced Defender]

13 minutes ago, pezza96 said:

Cheers, if you were looking to recreate a longball style yourself what mentality would you use?

I generally like to start with the Balanced mentality when creating and testing a new tactic, because it's relatively easy to spot any potential issues (assuming you also keep instructions simple and don't use many of them).

Now, when it comes specifically to hoofball (or longball, as you call it), it can work on any mentality as long as you know how to adapt other instructions to the specific mentality you are using. Because the team mentality automatically affects all other instructions (along with individual player mentalities via their duties). 

20 minutes ago, pezza96 said:

Do you think long term it could be successful in game

Depends on what your expectation is. I guess you don't expect to win titles or compete for a continental competition with such style of football (although anything is possible), because you don't want to play long-ball football with a top team (logically). But some decent mid-table position should be achievable with the right players and tactic. In lower leagues even promotion may not be out of reach 

[johnnyyakuza78]

10 hours ago, pezza96 said:

So unfortunately despite having the players to make it work, my short test was not successful, players still dally on the ball instead of getting it forward as id like. I find it very hard to get any attacking threat on a lower mentality

Yeah I’d question expectations of this tactic. If you expect to score a lot of goals then I’d stop right there.

The style I was going for was meant to grind out tiny margins in games and try not to concede. It will always be difficult to score goals like this. The enhance your chances I think you need 2 very good strikers, but good at different things. A big and little combination with at least one being a good pacey clinical finisher.

I also think you haven’t gone far enough in your tactic to make it properly long ball. Defensive mentality will lead to some cautious passing around the back so you need to use roles and instructions to counteract that:  Choose only no nonsense defenders, go extremely long passing, use wingers not inverted wingers, use two strikers not a shadow striker. Then if you still aren’t seeing the right football go in and change individual players passing style.

Also try training defenders with ‘hits long passes’ traits etc.

Now do I expect to win the champions league with this style? Probably not. It might be possible however to get some sort of success. Leicester city won the prem playing a defensive 442/4411 that mainly involved long balls over the top to Vardy so it’s possible if highly unlikely.
 

But that isn’t really the reason I’m playing the game. I prefer the challenge and creating something unusual, using the features in the game to sandbox rather than trying to beat it. It is actually kind of easy to win at FM if you play it the right way,  the game allows you to over achieve. So I look for something else to do

[pezza96]

2 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Yeah I’d question expectations of this tactic. If you expect to score a lot of goals then I’d stop right there.

The style I was going for was meant to grind out tiny margins in games and try not to concede. It will always be difficult to score goals like this. The enhance your chances I think you need 2 very good strikers, but good at different things. A big and little combination with at least one being a good pacey clinical finisher.

I also think you haven’t gone far enough in your tactic to make it properly long ball. Defensive mentality will lead to some cautious passing around the back so you need to use roles and instructions to counteract that:  Choose only no nonsense defenders, go extremely long passing, use wingers not inverted wingers, use two strikers not a shadow striker. Then if you still aren’t seeing the right football go in and change individual players passing style.

Also try training defenders with ‘hits long passes’ traits etc.

Now do I expect to win the champions league with this style? Probably not. It might be possible however to get some sort of success. Leicester city won the prem playing a defensive 442/4411 that mainly involved long balls over the top to Vardy so it’s possible if highly unlikely.
 

But that isn’t really the reason I’m playing the game. I prefer the challenge and creating something unusual, using the features in the game to sandbox rather than trying to beat it. It is actually kind of easy to win at FM if you play it the right way,  the game allows you to over achieve. So I look for something else to do

Some sound advice, cheers. I often end up getting caught in between wanting a Pulis style longball and a Charlton/Taylor/Beck style (I have had success with the latter on previous fms) The pulis variant is much harder to perfect imo, especially as when he was at stoke we played very differently depending on opposition and whether we were home/away

[johnnyyakuza78]

1 hour ago, pezza96 said:

Some sound advice, cheers. I often end up getting caught in between wanting a Pulis style longball and a Charlton/Taylor/Beck style (I have had success with the latter on previous fms) The pulis variant is much harder to perfect imo, especially as when he was at stoke we played very differently depending on opposition and whether we were home/away

Yeah this is something I'm going to have to consider. I recently watched this video by TIFO on Burnley, and how they adapt to teams. Although known as a low block direct side them sometimes push a lot higher up and press up the field. The same could be said of Atletico Madrid who don't always play the same way. I don't really want to have to divert from my main tactic too much so if I could stick to that tactic but just adjust LOE and maybe defensive line to alter it just enough to disrupt teams then I'd be happy. 

I have also gone down the Beck style as well and saw some sort of success, but I was never happy because it didn't feel ugly enough. I got some very nice looking goals out of it but I dropped it to focus on something worse to watch. It might be I need to create it as my secondary tactic again though.

 

[pezza96]

4 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Yeah this is something I'm going to have to consider. I recently watched this video by TIFO on Burnley, and how they adapt to teams. Although known as a low block direct side them sometimes push a lot higher up and press up the field. The same could be said of Atletico Madrid who don't always play the same way. I don't really want to have to divert from my main tactic too much so if I could stick to that tactic but just adjust LOE and maybe defensive line to alter it just enough to disrupt teams then I'd be happy. 

I have also gone down the Beck style as well and saw some sort of success, but I was never happy because it didn't feel ugly enough. I got some very nice looking goals out of it but I dropped it to focus on something worse to watch. It might be I need to create it as my secondary tactic again though.

 

Indeed, it is very situational. http://www.soccer-ireland.com/irish-soccer-managers/jack-charlton-football-style.htm  https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/miguel-delaneyjack-charltons-long-ball-was-also-long-sighted-340051.html These two articles offer a very interesting take on a more aggressive version of long-ball

[engamohd]

Lurking around this brilliant thread, I have created a very beautiful antifootball 4-4-2, that can be classed as hoofball.

https://community.sigames.com/topic/527939-a-guide-to-direct-long-ball-antifootball-play-a-dyches-burnley-inspired-4-4-2/

[Peljam]

Just wanted to add my offering for FM21. Have won the Vanarama National, Won League 2, and then got to the L1 playoff final with it so far. Playoffs or promotion look likely this season as well.

It is violent, aggressive, direct and very counter driven. It even has 2 targetmen.

Has a Klingon inspired name for any serious nerds out there, as covered here and here.

All players have tackle hard on if they can. The keeper distributes the ball to the TM. Opposition instruction-wise I do two things. Before the game I check to see which opposition players have high xG per 90 stats, as they are potential threats. And I then go in hard, press and weaker foot them. To try and drive them out of the game. The 2nd thing I do is during the game. I keep an eye on players making key passes. Any player that gets 3 or more key passes gets extra attention via the OI's. Basically I try to kick the most threatening players off the pitch.

I also change the player in the WTM role depending on what the opposition DL/WBL is like. If they are short and can't jump then the 6ft 6 beast plays. If they are good in the air then the more agile WTM comes on to pick up 2nd balls instead. If they play a narrow 3 or 2 at the back then they are going to struggle against us no matter what, but would probably play the faster WTM.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Peljam

[Vinnie Thatcher]

This is amazing.

 

Two Target Men. Have always wanted to play with two Target men on the team

[Pelz]

@Peljam- Barring the wide target man and your attention to detail opposition wise (which from tonight I think I’m going to adopt because man, the idea of kicking threats out of the game is right up my street ) out tactics are pretty much identical.

As a matter of fact on closer inspection our TI’s and player roles (WTM aside) are exactly the same. 

Needless to say I’m a fan! Your wide target man idea is beautiful, though I can’t bring myself to use it. Would feel like cheating.
 

[Peljam]

26 minutes ago, Pelz said:

@Peljam- Barring the wide target man and your attention to detail opposition wise (which from tonight I think I’m going to adopt because man, the idea of kicking threats out of the game is right up my street ) out tactics are pretty much identical.

As a matter of fact on closer inspection our TI’s and player roles (WTM aside) are exactly the same. 

Needless to say I’m a fan! Your wide target man idea is beautiful, though I can’t bring myself to use it. Would feel like cheating.
 

Great minds! I'm reassured that it's not just me that has done this. I try to do things logically so I feel validated that someone else has arrived at the same approach.

 

Get your WTM kicking people. It is fantastic. Even if you lose it feels great to know you've gone down fighting. Literally fighting