Blocking lanes in a high pressing football

[Armistice]

Hi, I've been trying lately to create an effective high pressing tactic by blocking lanes (something Guardiola uses in his high pressing football) to force opposition to commit mistakes or pass the ball long. I am also trying to avoid creating big gaps that could be exploited by more skilled players and face deadly counter-attacks.

But first thing first, blocking lanes. How can I block lanes so that the opponent have low to no options to pass? I mean, you need (in my opinion) a heavy formation with players high up the pitch that can do the pressing, but how exactly can you block lanes by using player roles (I am guessing this is the way to do it)? For example in a 4-2-3-1, have the AMR/L instructed to sit narrower to make them sit in the half-space, then instruct the fullbacks to press the opponents' wingers immediately they pass the ball? Should the AMC be instructed to stay central or to drift into channels (that might be an on the ball movement though?) to create 2v1 situations? What abut the CMs, are they supposed to press too (or at least one of them) to make sure the ball doesn't get past? High line should be required obviously, but then camping in the opponents half won't be as much effective if they keep tight at the back and doesn't give much space.

[ajsr1982]

If you get a good answer to this, I'd love to know, because I think it's beyond what FM is capable of doing at present. This, and increased instruction around lateral movement are things I'd like to see added in more detail.

Having your AM R/L sit narrower is an instruction with the ball. It will obviously help a little during transition, but they'll tend to head out wide without the ball as per your formation.

My take is that there are things you can do to help, but you can't do it explicitly.

A narrower formation (4-2-3-1 Narrow, for example) might help. Playing with a Counter or Defensive mentality, or on Very Fluid might also help keep you more compact. You can also use opposition instructions to show wide players inside and into congested areas, while marking central players tightly.

[lemeuresnew]

i believe the only thing like this is the tighter marking. so wingers stick closer to there fullbacks, coupled with closing down more etc can press a defence. 

 

think that is as close as you get

[Fosse]

I think the subtleties of pressing and defensive organisation options are really lacking in FM, we have a few basic options but really I tend to leave closing down on sometimes because I find that more closing down is too disjointed for my system. I hope SI are looking to significantly overhaul pressing and the tactical creator.

[Armistice]

Alright I see, I remember Rashidi said in one of his Wolves counter-pressing videos that Guardiola's type of pressing (blocking passing lanes) is harder to achieve than Klopp's for example, but after all, if I am looking to make an effective high pressing tactic, what should I look after? Intense pressing like man-marking pressing or pressing the opponent's player with the ball into wider areas where he has no passing options but forward or long balls ahead?

[ajsr1982]

If I were you, I'd experiment with a few things and see how it translates. I think you have a clear idea of what you're after, but perhaps you're not 100% sure of what buttons to press to achieve it - something which still happens to me to be honest!

I think a lot of people on here equate 'Close Down More' with pressing, but that's not really true in game. Enable 'Close Down More' and see what happens. In my experience, it effectively tells the man closest to the ball to chase after it, if he's within, say, 10-15 yards of the opponent in possession. What it doesn't do is to tell your midfield to move ten yards further up the pitch as a unit and tightly mark easy passing options.

I'll also leave here what I find I'm telling more and more people of late. Make sure you have the personnel to carry out what you're trying to achieve. Playing wingers with poor defensive stats and low work-rate/teamwork and asking them to press will only lead to you getting frustrated that your tactics aren't working!

Some of the Simeone threads are a good read for pressing, in particular for creating a funnel that directs the opposition into the congested centre of the pitch. That might be the sort of thing you're after.

[Lordluap]

try a pair of strikers and then an AM or CM/support.  Tight marking and prevent short GK's initially.  the AM/CM will push up a bit, blocking the passing lane from defence into midfield.  

[Rashidi]

9 hours ago, ajsr1982 said:

If I were you, I'd experiment with a few things and see how it translates. I think you have a clear idea of what you're after, but perhaps you're not 100% sure of what buttons to press to achieve it - something which still happens to me to be honest!

I think a lot of people on here equate 'Close Down More' with pressing, but that's not really true in game. Enable 'Close Down More' and see what happens. In my experience, it effectively tells the man closest to the ball to chase after it, if he's within, say, 10-15 yards of the opponent in possession. What it doesn't do is to tell your midfield to move ten yards further up the pitch as a unit and tightly mark easy passing options.

 

I practice closing down lanes all the time and you are right closing down by itself doesn't get the job done on its own, its going to be a combination of things you set up to get that to happen. You just need to know what to do to set these up. I have been closing down lanes and pressing teams and finding the sweet spot where I get enough balance between them to generate 70% of possession and still be able to do the counter press. I can even do this on Overload mentality. Pressing lanes can definitely be done. It is unrealistic to expect every lane to be closed down, and you cannot expect every player to do the job. You just need to find the right combination of players and set up the system the right way.  Guardiola's system is almost impossible to replicate because it demands the kind of interposition flexibility that is not in the game, however Klopps's mental gegenpressing can be done, however, like his sides in real life, you need to accept the cost. 

Just ask Liverpool.

With the right settings you can have an attacking mentality generate 70% possession and still be carving out loads of chances, you can even draw them out and let them attack you and then strike back by shutting their lanes down.

 

[Rashidi]

Shoulder rub :-) sounds good, I need one too.

Alright it is possible to shut down lanes, and you can do that on most defensive line settings bar the deepest one, it all depends on your settings. And as the OP naturally pointed out, the higher you go the more you compress so it becomes an issue in itself. Against teams that come out and attack, actually the depth of the defensive line can be used as a switch, depending on how you set your duties up. The roles play a secondary importance here, because duties are the ones that affect transition on different shape settings. In7 this video I explain the 4312 in detail and I also set out to explain how I set up my dline traps. Once they are set and I know the sweet zone for my dline I don't need to change it. I need the AI to come out and play to give me room. Still though, you can effectively shut out a lot of lanes. the challenge then turns into another one. In a game I recently played in the Serie A, against Napoli we generated nearly 80% possession and we won the game, because Napoli tried to play their way out of trouble and ended up trapped in my third. Against weaker sides who don't want to come out you may end up having to throw more players into attack, this you do via duties combined with the right shape settings. So a fluid shape will get more players into attack during transitions with the risk of leaving your side open to OTT balls. Then you need to find the sweet spot of your defensive line again to get the right setting of applying just the right amount of pressure without leaving your backdoor open.  
 

This season I have gone from control to overload, in some of my games I play overload exclusively. Lately the AI has been adapting. I have noticed that it changes to a deep counter attacking system with a TM/poacher combo, in this game while I was trying to break them down the same thing happened. So while it is possible to shut lanes down, you sometimes end up with crazy possession numbers because the AI never gets a chance to play. So the question you need to ask yourself is this, how willing are you to give it enough rope to hang itself. 

 

[Cap'nRad]

Since we're talking practically here, I've got something going in my current save which might be helpful. I'm using a 4-3-3 and I'll explain my logic.

        sk(d)

fb(a)  cb  cb  fb(au)

        dlp (d)

  cm(a)       cm(au)

if(s)     dlf(s)        if(a)

Logic:

When thinking of pressing up, the first thing to spring to mind is compactness. we want their near passing options covered all throughout the pitch, outnumbering them in midfield especially. this means the space between your lines should be minimized. the best way to do this is a fluid setting (not very fluid as too much freedom), a narrower formation (slightly narrower or narrower are both fine, just for  the transition period), and push higher up (not much higher because of balance). For me these 3 are essential. Next, you want to close down situationally, making sure (1) oppo can't pass out and (2) even if they do, you've got it covered. That means different pressing levels for different positions (.ie. close down more ti shouldn't be used, rather, individual closing down instructions).

Remember, the pressing is more intense higher up the pitch, so dlf and if(a) both have close down much more. Then comes the next layer. Close down more for if (s) and cm(au). The reason for this is that if everyone closes down & marks appropriately, it (ideally) forces the ball to the right side of the field, specifically the right cm (a). With this in mind, the cm (a) has close down much more, as he's there to trap the "last man" who has all his options blocked. At this point, either possession is regained, ball is hoofed, or the press is played out of. 3rd choice is where dlp (d) comes in. He is instructed to close down less, because if the press is played out of, he is the last man left to slow down the opposition on the ball, allowing the midfield to regain their defensive positioning. Thus, it is vital that he is not drawn out of position into rash challenges. 

The fullbacks both have close down more and mark tighter. I usually put tackle harder as well, because at this point the ball is probably with the oppo winger, who should not be allowed to beat the last man on the wing with so many midfielders high up. Thus fouls are acceptable on the wings. If the fullback has a yellow, removing tackle harder and calming them down usually prevents avoidable red cards.

The last ti i use for the press is use tighter marking. I believe that fm doesn't really execute cutting out passing lanes well, but this ti when pressing produces the desired effect.

Finally, using general oi's I always close down wide men (fb, wb, winger) as well as am (c) and st (c). For everyone else, closing down is situational depending on the press. A lone st is usually tightly marked by a stopper, with a fast covering cb sweeping up behind him. This in theory nullifies both long balls to targetmen and through balls past the high line to poachers. 

And that about covers it. if i forgot anything, I'll edit it in, and if anyone can suggest changes to make this even more effective, i'll gladly incorporate them. hope this was useful  

[Cap'nRad]

On 2/6/2017 at 09:56, nightwalker22 said:

I am also trying to avoid creating big gaps that could be exploited by more skilled players and face deadly counter-attacks.

One thing to remember is if it's a high block you're pressing with (push higher up, much higher def. line) then the gap could simply be the space between goalie and defense. It is then up to you to minimize the risk of that area being exploited by (a) playing fast cb to sweep up (b) playing sweeper keeper to sweep up or (c) positioning a fullback slightly deeper, effectively creating a 3 man back line in transition. I personally just do all 3. 

In any case, what I'm trying to say is that as far as I know, for every manager playing this style, that's the risk and it can't be simply avoided. It can however be managed such that the gaps are well covered and pose not that much of a threat.

[Michael Zorc]

On 10/02/2017 at 10:25, Cap'nRad said:

Since we're talking practically here, I've got something going in my current save which might be helpful. I'm using a 4-3-3 and I'll explain my logic.

        sk(d)

fb(a)  cb  cb  fb(au)

        dlp (d)

  cm(a)       cm(au)

if(s)     dlf(s)        if(a)

Logic:

When thinking of pressing up, the first thing to spring to mind is compactness. we want their near passing options covered all throughout the pitch, outnumbering them in midfield especially. this means the space between your lines should be minimized. the best way to do this is a fluid setting (not very fluid as too much freedom), a narrower formation (slightly narrower or narrower are both fine, just for  the transition period), and push higher up (not much higher because of balance). For me these 3 are essential. Next, you want to close down situationally, making sure (1) oppo can't pass out and (2) even if they do, you've got it covered. That means different pressing levels for different positions (.ie. close down more ti shouldn't be used, rather, individual closing down instructions).

Remember, the pressing is more intense higher up the pitch, so dlf and if(a) both have close down much more. Then comes the next layer. Close down more for if (s) and cm(au). The reason for this is that if everyone closes down & marks appropriately, it (ideally) forces the ball to the right side of the field, specifically the right cm (a). With this in mind, the cm (a) has close down much more, as he's there to trap the "last man" who has all his options blocked. At this point, either possession is regained, ball is hoofed, or the press is played out of. 3rd choice is where dlp (d) comes in. He is instructed to close down less, because if the press is played out of, he is the last man left to slow down the opposition on the ball, allowing the midfield to regain their defensive positioning. Thus, it is vital that he is not drawn out of position into rash challenges. 

The fullbacks both have close down more and mark tighter. I usually put tackle harder as well, because at this point the ball is probably with the oppo winger, who should not be allowed to beat the last man on the wing with so many midfielders high up. Thus fouls are acceptable on the wings. If the fullback has a yellow, removing tackle harder and calming them down usually prevents avoidable red cards.

The last ti i use for the press is use tighter marking. I believe that fm doesn't really execute cutting out passing lanes well, but this ti when pressing produces the desired effect.

Finally, using general oi's I always close down wide men (fb, wb, winger) as well as am (c) and st (c). For everyone else, closing down is situational depending on the press. A lone st is usually tightly marked by a stopper, with a fast covering cb sweeping up behind him. This in theory nullifies both long balls to targetmen and through balls past the high line to poachers. 

And that about covers it. if i forgot anything, I'll edit it in, and if anyone can suggest changes to make this even more effective, i'll gladly incorporate them. hope this was useful  

Really helpful post with some great practical examples and advice. Thank you for sharing. 

I like the idea of a high press with staggered and even asymmetric closing down being selectively and strategically used to create pressing traps.

Definitely something I'm going to do more work on as it's been one of my biggest let downs in FM17 thus far (the lack of intstructions available to customise a defensive strategy that replicates my real life preferences and the complexities they entail).

Thanks again. 

[Cap'nRad]

On 2/10/2017 at 21:19, Michael Zorc said:

Really helpful post with some great practical examples and advice. Thank you for sharing. 

I like the idea of a high press with staggered and even asymmetric closing down being selectively and strategically used to create pressing traps.

Definitely something I'm going to do more work on as it's been one of my biggest let downs in FM17 thus far (the lack of intstructions available to customise a defensive strategy that replicates my real life preferences and the complexities they entail).

Thanks again. 

No problem . i agree lack of in depth pressing and total ignorance of passing lanes is a let down for me as well, as well as the rigidity of the tactical creator. I assume that coding a reactive ai that will not be greatly exploited is one of the reasons for the lack of fluidity with tactics (just look at the current defensive behaviour), so i can live with it for now.

The article you posted on BM is very interesting btw... if only there was a way for cm's to be instructed to move laterally (as well as strikers) i would try to replicate it. Doubt it's possible with current t.c, so i guess we gotta wait till the next fm evolution 

[themadsheep2001]

Deleted a load of posts because the level of entitlement and rudeness from some users here is unacceptable. Cut it out or infractions will follow 

[luka_zg]

On 2/10/2017 at 00:25, Cap'nRad said:

Since we're talking practically here, I've got something going in my current save which might be helpful. I'm using a 4-3-3 and I'll explain my logic.

        sk(d)

fb(a)  cb  cb  fb(au)

        dlp (d)

  cm(a)       cm(au)

if(s)     dlf(s)        if(a)

Logic:

When thinking of pressing up, the first thing to spring to mind is compactness. we want their near passing options covered all throughout the pitch, outnumbering them in midfield especially. this means the space between your lines should be minimized. the best way to do this is a fluid setting (not very fluid as too much freedom), a narrower formation (slightly narrower or narrower are both fine, just for  the transition period), and push higher up (not much higher because of balance). For me these 3 are essential. Next, you want to close down situationally, making sure (1) oppo can't pass out and (2) even if they do, you've got it covered. That means different pressing levels for different positions (.ie. close down more ti shouldn't be used, rather, individual closing down instructions).

Remember, the pressing is more intense higher up the pitch, so dlf and if(a) both have close down much more. Then comes the next layer. Close down more for if (s) and cm(au). The reason for this is that if everyone closes down & marks appropriately, it (ideally) forces the ball to the right side of the field, specifically the right cm (a). With this in mind, the cm (a) has close down much more, as he's there to trap the "last man" who has all his options blocked. At this point, either possession is regained, ball is hoofed, or the press is played out of. 3rd choice is where dlp (d) comes in. He is instructed to close down less, because if the press is played out of, he is the last man left to slow down the opposition on the ball, allowing the midfield to regain their defensive positioning. Thus, it is vital that he is not drawn out of position into rash challenges. 

The fullbacks both have close down more and mark tighter. I usually put tackle harder as well, because at this point the ball is probably with the oppo winger, who should not be allowed to beat the last man on the wing with so many midfielders high up. Thus fouls are acceptable on the wings. If the fullback has a yellow, removing tackle harder and calming them down usually prevents avoidable red cards.

The last ti i use for the press is use tighter marking. I believe that fm doesn't really execute cutting out passing lanes well, but this ti when pressing produces the desired effect.

Finally, using general oi's I always close down wide men (fb, wb, winger) as well as am (c) and st (c). For everyone else, closing down is situational depending on the press. A lone st is usually tightly marked by a stopper, with a fast covering cb sweeping up behind him. This in theory nullifies both long balls to targetmen and through balls past the high line to poachers. 

And that about covers it. if i forgot anything, I'll edit it in, and if anyone can suggest changes to make this even more effective, i'll gladly incorporate them. hope this was useful  

Okay..wow!

this is amazing, I 've tried this with my team and we have been transformed, tearing teams apart. it's unbelievable!!

can you tell how would you set up pressing for players in a 4-2-3-1 system?

[Cap'nRad]

On 2/16/2017 at 14:22, luka_ said:

Okay..wow!

this is amazing, I 've tried this with my team and we have been transformed, tearing teams apart. it's unbelievable!!

can you tell how would you set up pressing for players in a 4-2-3-1 system?

Hey luka, glad you liked it . Coincidentally a team like liverpool fits the tactic quite well!

I've experimented with a 4231 as well, i'll explain the logic.

              sk(d)

fb(a)   cd   cd   fb(au)

      cm(d)    dlp(s)

 if(s)     am(a)     if(s)

             cf(s)

Logic:

In the same vein as the previous one i'm trying to address the issues of compactness and selective pressing. Like previously stated, when pressing high there must be an adequate level of compactness between the lines to restrict the oppo's passing options; however, for this formation i have to keep in mind that the defensive formation is already quite top heavy, with four attack minded players in the oppo's area. Thus, setting it to fluid is not really necessary, flexible is recommended for midfield balance. Push higher up is still necessary to make sure the midfield engages earlier and more aggressively, as well as avoid gaps between dm's and cb's. A narrower formation helps as well in restriction oppo's options in the transition phase. Next comes the closing down instructions.

Closing down, again, is situational. As before, the pressure is higher up the pitch. Thus the st(c) and both if(s) have close down much more. this is to put immediate heavy pressure on the opponent's backline and wings. The fullbacks also have close down more and mark tighter to put immediate pressure on the winger. i put tackle harder as well, for the same reason as with the 433. The am(c) has close down more and mark tighter. He doesn't need to be as aggressive as the striker because since he's already in the am strata, his job is to prevent passes to opponent's deepest mid and put pressure on them. The cm(d) has mark tighter as he's to ensure a pass can't get to opponent's most attacking mid, close down more is fine for him since he's playing a double pivot and the dlp(s) can cover if he pushes up. The dlp(s) has the instruction to close down much more as he's essentially the midfield ball winner and since the other mids are trying to restrict opposition's options, he's there to win the ball from the mid left with very few/ no options to pass. Thus there is theoretically good high pressure on the wings from if(s) and fb's, and good pressure in the center from st(c), am(c) and dlp(s), as well as a covering option in the form of the cm(d). As you can see, a flexible setting seems better than a fluid in ensuring a more organized pressure in each of the positions.

The mark tighter ti still works well in removing opponent's immediate passing options. the oi's are mostly the same, the wings are closed down aggressively (fb, wb, winger) and the am(c) and st(c) are both closed down, with the st(c) being always tightly marked by a stopper. the difference is that with a more top heavy defensive formation, you can now afford to always mark out the oppo's dm from the game with your am. So dm(c) is always tightly marked.

A side note is to watch out for the stability of your double pivot. If you feel the cm(d) is closing down too much and leaving holes, you could change him to a dlp(d), and the dlp(s) to a bwm(s). That way their duties are a bit more segregated and they can each focus on a specific defensive aspect.

And that's how i would set up the 4231. As before, any suggestions are welcome.

[rninejr]

On Friday, February 10, 2017 at 06:25, Cap'nRad said:

Since we're talking practically here, I've got something going in my current save which might be helpful. I'm using a 4-3-3 and I'll explain my logic.

        sk(d)

fb(a)  cb  cb  fb(au)

        dlp (d)

  cm(a)       cm(au)

if(s)     dlf(s)        if(a)

Logic:

When thinking of pressing up, the first thing to spring to mind is compactness. we want their near passing options covered all throughout the pitch, outnumbering them in midfield especially. this means the space between your lines should be minimized. the best way to do this is a fluid setting (not very fluid as too much freedom), a narrower formation (slightly narrower or narrower are both fine, just for  the transition period), and push higher up (not much higher because of balance). For me these 3 are essential. Next, you want to close down situationally, making sure (1) oppo can't pass out and (2) even if they do, you've got it covered. That means different pressing levels for different positions (.ie. close down more ti shouldn't be used, rather, individual closing down instructions).

Remember, the pressing is more intense higher up the pitch, so dlf and if(a) both have close down much more. Then comes the next layer. Close down more for if (s) and cm(au). The reason for this is that if everyone closes down & marks appropriately, it (ideally) forces the ball to the right side of the field, specifically the right cm (a). With this in mind, the cm (a) has close down much more, as he's there to trap the "last man" who has all his options blocked. At this point, either possession is regained, ball is hoofed, or the press is played out of. 3rd choice is where dlp (d) comes in. He is instructed to close down less, because if the press is played out of, he is the last man left to slow down the opposition on the ball, allowing the midfield to regain their defensive positioning. Thus, it is vital that he is not drawn out of position into rash challenges. 

The fullbacks both have close down more and mark tighter. I usually put tackle harder as well, because at this point the ball is probably with the oppo winger, who should not be allowed to beat the last man on the wing with so many midfielders high up. Thus fouls are acceptable on the wings. If the fullback has a yellow, removing tackle harder and calming them down usually prevents avoidable red cards.

The last ti i use for the press is use tighter marking. I believe that fm doesn't really execute cutting out passing lanes well, but this ti when pressing produces the desired effect

Finally, using general oi's I always close down wide men (fb, wb, winger) as well as am (c) and st (c). For everyone else, closing down is situational depending on the press. A lone st is usually tightly marked by a stopper, with a fast covering cb sweeping up behind him. This in theory nullifies both long balls to targetmen and through balls past the high line to poachers. 

And that about covers it. if i forgot anything, I'll edit it in, and if anyone can suggest changes to make this even more effective, i'll gladly incorporate them. hope this was useful  

the first paragraph, well yeah that's what I do with my current middlesbrough save. But unlike you, I never told any player to closedown more individually. Instead I told my flat back 4 to close down much less. I just want to press higher up the pitch, when the ball is still on their half. I also rarely use tight marking because there are many speed merchants at English premier league

There was a rather unique way I did to learn how to use OI effectively. Long ago I created or edited my assistant manager using FM editor (the one that must start a new game to take effect) with tactical attributes similiar to my close down philosopy, and set his tactical knowledge, n both judging CA and PA 20. Then I would ask his opinion on how to do the OI for every match. I keep watching how he use OI and now I can use one by myself. Assistant manager, if you have the right one, can be a great assest too

 

There are some general rules for me to use high pressing, 

- Never use tight marking on pacey winger or striker or attacking midfielder. You may use harder tackle if their bravery is low (<11). It is a common thing to keep a safe distance when marking a speed merchant. 

- Always close down player who are creative, or good at passing. 

- There is an exception, if your opposition is using a lone striker formation do not order your player to close him down. A striker like this usually is the primary bait to lure your defender out of position. Especially with 4-2-3-1or 4-4-1-1 formation

- But IF, if, that lone striker is starting to aggresively use dribbles and long shots to break through your defense, give the order to always close him down. A striker like this, (Messi, Neymar, Suarez, Sturridge, Ibra) are the main reason why i keep my flat back 4's closing down setting to much less. In case I need to close down one, my defender wont just chasing a ghost together like crazy, leaving so many holes at defence. Let's say Messi is running towards the middle with the ball at his feet, and I set my players to always close him down. IF both fullback are both instructed to close down much more, they will happlly leave both flanks completely vulnerable just to chase Messi. No, i dont want that.

- The same rules also applies for a pair of striker (line 4-4-2), Dont instruct your player to always close down both of them right off the bat. Sometime it is fine not to give any Oi at them at all. 

- Always closing down a pivot player is a good thing to do, regardless of how good he is at passing. Usually a midfielder or Defensive midfielder with defend duty, aka the lowest midfielder when your opposition has possession. Instruct someone to man-mark him is also an alternative

- In some rare cases, Always close down a fullback who keep sending deadly crosses. I do this after watching the match for a moment, not at the start of the match. Since I use a Standart 4-4-2 I dont need to order my wingers to man-mark opposition's fullbacks. Oi is enough

- Tight Marking for High level playmakers but slow, like iniesta, fabregas, Toni Kroos, Xabi Alonso. 

-The key is to force your opposition to attack an area your team is best at, or force them to attack using certain methods that your team is excel against. There is no way we can always press them down all the time. Especially at high level competitions. that in mind. Perhaps they get more possession or more shoot but the point is to make use of what your team is best at not to do something they clearly cannot do

I'm using a Standart 4-4-2. Flat back 4, flat midfielder quartet, and a pair of striker. Control Mentality, Fluid Team's Shape

My TI: Slightly higher defensive line, Much lower to normal tempo (depends), Slightly narrower, and hits early crosses. 

 

For away Matches: Structured Team shape, TI's are the same, but I juse Much higher defensive line insteadm since structured team shape increase depth. 

 

[Fana]

On 10.2.2017 at 00:25, Cap'nRad said:

That means different pressing levels for different positions (.ie. close down more ti shouldn't be used, rather, individual closing down instructions).

Very insightful, thanks. I might have a stupid question. How can you put some of your players on Close down much more? For most of my players Close down more is the maximum (unless I use Close down less TI).

[bosque]

11 minutes ago, Fana said:

Very insightful, thanks. I might have a stupid question. How can you put some of your players on Close down much more? For most of my players Close down more is the maximum (unless I use Close down less TI).

I think it depends on the mentality and the position in the pitch. with higher mentalities and higher positions in pitch you can't press much more.

[Armistice]

Alright I will revive this topic since I still have some ideas to discuss about high pressing. I've been thinking about a couple of IF (A) coupled with a CF (A) or a DLF (A) (I think because it drops deeper it might not be as effective as an advanced striker). Now, thing is I want my two wide players to sit somewhere in between their fullbacks and central defenders so a "Move into Channels" would be pretty handy in this situation and I think it can't be selected in IF case (not sure because I am not in game). I want my striker to remain central  and press the two CB, while the IFs close the halfspace (that's why I said they should sit in the channel). Considering this, I still am not sure how the MCs should add, I would say they press, but not as much as the front free, and a MC should close down less than the other two just to give a little bit of protection.

As my IF stay somewhat narrow, my Fullbacks should provide width, so they would go on a FB (S) or WB (S), so that's why the my MCs have to be quite conservative and should support the front three but also watch out for counters. High defensive line, moderate pressing from my CBs, I want somethig like Spurs style of press.

[Craigus89]

Move into channels is a build-up instruction so won't affect defensive positioning of your IF.

[Alerion]

The problem here is that you only use 3 upfront to press, while the other team has 4 passing options. Your striker (for pressing I recommend a DF/S) will cover one CD, your IF´s are only in the space between the fullbacks and CD´s which means that their keeper can roll out the balls easily to the flanks. If you are playing 3 up front I´d suggest (I am no expect so take everything with a bit of salt) pressing their midfield and forwards. 

 

Your CM´s should help with the pressing too, they are key to a completly functional pressing tactic. I use a CM/S and a DLP/S to help my forwards press their midfield and cover the oppositions passing options. Regarding your fullbacks, I dont think its good for high pressing if your FB overlap, if you lose the ball you suddenly lack 2 key players in your back and your flanks are wide open for a counter attack because your other players are still high up the pitch. 

 

If you want to play a pressing game you need to understand how it works, you won´t build up your play from behind once you claim the ball back, you want fast passes into the space to your striker/s. 

[Armistice]

9 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Move into channels is a build-up instruction so won't affect defensive positioning of your IF.

I know, but if we're to lose possession high on the pitch, I figured high closing down in transition would cause them at least to mimic this kind of movement. Of course it wouldn't be benificial in case of goal kicks or just prolongued possession of the opponent...?

6 minutes ago, Alerion said:

The problem here is that you only use 3 upfront to press, while the other team has 4 passing options. Your striker (for pressing I recommend a DF/S) will cover one CD, your IF´s are only in the space between the fullbacks and CD´s which means that their keeper can roll out the balls easily to the flanks. If you are playing 3 up front I´d suggest (I am no expect so take everything with a bit of salt) pressing their midfield and forwards. 

 

Your CM´s should help with the pressing too, they are key to a completly functional pressing tactic. I use a CM/S and a DLP/S to help my forwards press their midfield and cover the oppositions passing options. Regarding your fullbacks, I dont think its good for high pressing if your FB overlap, if you lose the ball you suddenly lack 2 key players in your back and your flanks are wide open for a counter attack because your other players are still high up the pitch. 

 

If you want to play a pressing game you need to understand how it works, you won´t build up your play from behind once you claim the ball back, you want fast passes into the space to your striker/s. 

So most of the time when I am looking to create a high pressing tactic I don't know why but I don't go all with it, I am taking caution measured and misjudge our style of football. Pressing a deep opponent won't work that great so I tended to write how we'd play against those who sit deep and let us keep possession. Of course I might be very wrong about some concepts about high pressing, but I wanted to have a more conservative midfield.

[Cap'nRad]

On 4/19/2017 at 05:12, nightwalker22 said:

Alright I will revive this topic since I still have some ideas to discuss about high pressing. I've been thinking about a couple of IF (A) coupled with a CF (A) or a DLF (A) (I think because it drops deeper it might not be as effective as an advanced striker). Now, thing is I want my two wide players to sit somewhere in between their fullbacks and central defenders so a "Move into Channels" would be pretty handy in this situation and I think it can't be selected in IF case (not sure because I am not in game). I want my striker to remain central  and press the two CB, while the IFs close the halfspace (that's why I said they should sit in the channel). Considering this, I still am not sure how the MCs should add, I would say they press, but not as much as the front free, and a MC should close down less than the other two just to give a little bit of protection.

As my IF stay somewhat narrow, my Fullbacks should provide width, so they would go on a FB (S) or WB (S), so that's why the my MCs have to be quite conservative and should support the front three but also watch out for counters. High defensive line, moderate pressing from my CBs, I want somethig like Spurs style of press.

You're correct that the mids should also press; how, when and where depends on your idea. Pressing isn't just running around aimlessly, it's mostly about directing the play of the opposition so that even when they're building from the back you're still in control of their buildup play. Some teams close down the more creative cb and cm agressively while leaving players with limited passing range relatively free; some teams close down certain areas of the pitch. It all depends on what you're trying to achieve. 

Practically, i would say you should direct their buildup play (a) towards your ball winner (b) towards your crowded area of the pitch, (c) away from your area of weakness, or (d) away from their playmaker. How your cm's press should depend on these kind of criteria. If you had a full tactic maybe I could offer more suggestions.

Based on the 433 you described I'm guessing you're not sure of the cm roles, but you have the right idea. Since your 3 strikers are pressuring the cbs equally hard I would say it's up to you to decide which cm you want to press more aggressively if so. For instance, lets say the midfield trio is bbm(s)   dlp(d)   ap(s),  you could get the center mid on the side of their midfield playmaker closing down more aggressively to ensure he doesn't get much time on the ball. Or, if you want to force mistakes, you could get the cm on the side of their limited ball winning midfielder to press him aggressively and force misplaced passes/ clearances. Or you could direct their buildup away from a certain side of the pitch by getting that cm to close down much more; for instance, if a winger isn't very defensively solid/ has low workrate and is slow to track back, closing down the cm in that area with your center mid will direct the buildup away from the lazy winger and relieve pressure from the fullback. It all depends on your idea.

[Kingkennydalglish]

In terms of blocking passing lanes, I'm having a lot of success allowing opposition centre backs to have the ball and closing off all other options.

My current set up is below is a hybrid 4312/433 set up.

 

Very fluid, standard or counter

Close down more, push up higher, prevent short GK distribution

            SK(a)

FB(a) BPD BPD FB (a)

Cm(s) CM(d) b2b

         APM (a)

      AF (a) f9(s)

My 2 forwards are assigned to man mark the opposition full backs, creating a 433/451 shape in defence.

Opposition instructions

- never close down, never tight mark on both opposition center backs

- always close down  and always tight mark on opposition midfield

The result

- no passing options for opposition defenders who either:

A) go long due to lack of ball playing attributes (composite, vision, passing etc.) Gifting possession to my compact organised defence

B) carry the ball into midfield, leaving space in behind for my two forwards (who are man marking opposition full backs) to break into when we recover possession.

I've used this system 5 times so far with slight tweaks to my full backs (change from attacking to defending depending on opposition)

I've rotated Mane and Origi in the advanced forward slot to great effect. Mane especially, starting wide due (to his man marking role) has been fantastic! Cutting inside and getting into the half spaces which are being left by the defenders who we've managed to lure out! 

Will post some screens and examples this evening which include 11-1and 5-1 wins Vs Newcastle and Chelsea with most of the original LFC team in place.

In FM and real life, Centre backs are usually a teams least comfortable/creative players.

As the AI begins to chase games by increasing mentality, their centre backs are begining to take risks creating even more opportunities and gaps for me to exploit! 

[Armistice]

Alright so what would be the most important principles of doing this in game and what would be the tools used to do it? I am trying to do it my own way, but I should know before if there are more than just the usual tools (PI, roles, mentality etc) to work with.

[Kingkennydalglish]

5 hours ago, nightwalker22 said:

Alright so what would be the most important principles of doing this in game and what would be the tools used to do it? I am trying to do it my own way, but I should know before if there are more than just the usual tools (PI, roles, mentality etc) to work with.

I've tried to loosely follow the very fluid principles set out by Ozil in his threads.

Very Fluid, Standard Mentality, High D-line & much more closing down. I don't use any 'on the ball' team instructions as I like my players to use the additional creative freedom given to them by the very fluid option.

Regular Tweaks

The only PI I give is 'distribute to Centre backs or full backs' for my goalkeeper depending on who is available to receive the ball:

Against 2 striker formation = Distribute to Full backs
Against 1 striker formation = Distribute to Centre backs

• If I'm playing against a team without an AM, I may change my CDM to DLP (36 Y/O Xabi Alonso still doing it for me!)
• I may change my full backs from attack to defend, if I'm playing against a top team with pacy wingers I want to prevent counters

I prefer to pick players that will play the way I want and rely on PPMs, rather than use team instructions/individual instructions.
(E.G I'll play Barta and Gomez at full back if I'm using FB-D roles, as Moreno and Clyne will still get forward due to their PPMs)

[Cap'nRad]

On 5/2/2017 at 05:22, nightwalker22 said:

Alright so what would be the most important principles of doing this in game and what would be the tools used to do it? I am trying to do it my own way, but I should know before if there are more than just the usual tools (PI, roles, mentality etc) to work with.

Most important principle would be to know why you're doing what you're doing, and what its weaknesses are. 3 strikers pressuring the cb's could be weak to, for example, a 5-1-2-2 where the defensive mid and wingbacks could relieve pressure from the cb's. Or more simply, very direct play aka "pulis-ball" could leave your defense exposed in a high press. Liverpool vs stoke this season, 1st half is a good example of that. Defence also needs to have high individual quality especially physically, or you could concede regularly.

Tools used to carry out pressing are numerous. You could use (a) collective mentality, (b) individual mentality, (c) team instructions, (d) player instructions, (e) team shape, (f) opposition instructions, (g) player roles, (h) d-line instructions, etc. How your pressure forms is as a result of the combination of these instructions. Could go more in depth if you like.

[Jean0987654321]

Honestly, I just use OIs. I can upload the screenshot of the OIs I have once I get home...

 

Update: Usually I just use these OIs to create pressing traps. I show each wide or wider man on the other foot to force them inside where most of my players on and then look to force them back wide and then boom, we win the ball back and counter.

 

[Cap'nRad]

9 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Honestly, I just use OIs. I can upload the screenshot of the OIs I have once I get home...

 

Update: Usually I just use these OIs to create pressing traps. I show each wide or wider man on the other foot to force them inside where most of my players on and then look to force them back wide and then boom, we win the ball back and counter.

 

Interesting setup, a bit similar to mine... but why never tight marking for the wide players? And no closing down the forwards? And why show inside forwards onto their stronger foot while never marking them? A bit confused about those parts.

[Jean0987654321]

On 5/5/2017 at 22:23, Cap'nRad said:

Interesting setup, a bit similar to mine... but why never tight marking for the wide players? And no closing down the forwards? And why show inside forwards onto their stronger foot while never marking them? A bit confused about those parts.

Never tight marking for wide players because I'm trying to emulate the pressing the Atletico Madrid does AND I want my players to focus on tight marking in the middle. We're trying to trap the players into moving the ball wide. Juanma Lillo says it best, "The width is your best friend." No closing down the forwards because that just forces silly fouls in the box, I found. Inside forwards don't typically have good crossing attributes and moreover I have a lot of players that are good in the air in the middle. So what if they'll cross it? It'll just get headed away by a CB.

[VV Bal op de Lat]

Wow, this is a groundbreaking topic for me. I have never understood how I could actually use the close down instructions etc in such a way that I could thunnel the play where I want it to be. Very insightful stuff!

I'll post my experiences when I've tried my take on this 🙂

[VV Bal op de Lat]

Well, I've tried your suggestions for thunneling the pressure in my 41221 and watched on full for a few matches. I must say I'm a bit disappointed with the way the match engine translates these in theory great instructions. On very few occasions I saw a good example of pressuring, but most of the times the AI can very easily play out of the pressure without any difficulty. My players just weren't pressing enough, unfortunately. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with the instructions, in fact I still think this is a groundbreaking topic. But the execution of this way of pressuring somehow isn't working for me in FM. 

I'm back on my old way of pressure: highest defensive line possible and close down much more for the whole team. This works for my 41221 and gives the opposition no time at all to properly build an attack from the back.