The 4-5-1 - The swiss army knife of formations?

[Jungztar]

I have made no or very few changes to the original setup.... It is still a flat 451 with 2 holding midfielders and 3 attacking "runners" .... I change the FBs from CWB (A) to CWB/WB (S) depending on the match or opponent.... But other than taht I have only reduced the number of TIs and PIs and try to make changes in the game by choosing different personel... I have just finished the autumn/winter part of the BL and was crowned "Herbst Meister" sitting comfortable in 1st place with 7 points to Bayern and Wolfsburg.

The Game plan is solid and I refrain from tweaking or tinkering unless I see major flaws in the matches.....

[noikeee]

And have you been playing/trying 451? If not, in the politest way possible, what is the relevance to this thread and Jungztar's post?

5th place for Inter is hardly a terrible season. They must be tipped to finish around there? They have a pretty bad and unbalanced squad to start with.

Sorry, I skimmed over the thread and looked at the title and thought it would be about all the variations of 4-5-1 (I consider 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 all part of that family), so seemed like a fitting place to unleash my FM frustrations. I didn't realize this was specifically about the flat 4-5-1 formation.

5th isn't terrible, but I definitely don't feel like I'm getting the most of what I have. We were predicted to finish 4th, and with the players I brought in (Ben Arfa, Pione Sisto, Balanta, Munir and Cassano) I really don't think we're any worse than Roma, Napoli and Fiorentina which are the teams immediately ahead. Having foolishly promised a few of my key players that we were gonna qualify for the Champions League, I'm pretty screwed now.

Might open up a thread for help with more specific info, not sure if I want to continue this career now.

[Jambo98]

That is likely partly where you go wrong. 4231 and 433 are very much not the same as 451. Those players in the AM strata, particularly in the AML/AMR slots are not midfielders in most systems and will not act like them. Perhaps a W(s) in that slot might act somewhat like a midfield, but in essence they are wide forwards. If i have said it once, i've said it 1000 times. Your formation is your defensive shape. So 4231 is unlikely to ever become 451 in any phase of play. 451, however, can very much become 4231 (see most of the detail in pages 1 - 2 of this thread).

To be fair. Ben Arfa, Cassano, those are also very selfish and lazy player types. Needs a very specific type of system to make one of those player types work.

Have a read of the thread properly and think about trying 451. If not, then good luck elsewhere

[Jungztar]

The WMA is much more effective for the team defensive shape than the AML/R because they add more to the defensive work but will be very potent in attacking as well. It is Again a matter of HOW you want to play..... The AML/R are attackers in wide positions and can be very effective but it will have cost towards the defensive shape.... Again a risk vs Award you need to plan for.....

[herne79]

The WMA is much more effective for the team defensive shape than the AML/R because they add more to the defensive work but will be very potent in attacking as well. It is Again a matter of HOW you want to play..... The AML/R are attackers in wide positions and can be very effective but it will have cost towards the defensive shape.... Again a risk vs Award you need to plan for.....

I agree up to a point, however it can depend on your set up and the players used. Take a look at this screen shot of my West Ham's defensive shape:

The players circled are AML/R Inside Forwards (support duty), played with a defensive mentality tactic and they have decent work rates (13 or 14). Both IFs typically cover just as much ground during a match as you would expect from hard working wingbacks (about 14 kms on average per match). I liken it to having wingbacks in the AML/R position - that's how potent it is. I'm using a type of 41221 DM Wide formation.

I seem to recall something changing in the latest patch to make players at AML/R with an attack duty track back a little more, perhaps there has been a knock on effect to similarly positioned players with a support duty as well?

Anyway, generally speaking yes I agree but it is possible (since the last patch?) to have AML/R players greatly contributing to both defensive work and the defensive shape.

[noikeee]

I know this is off-topic by now, but just passing by to report that in my little Inter career I still managed to recover to 4th place (if just short of that promised Champions League qualification)... and got immediately sacked at the end of the season. Slightly annoyed as I had some ideas for the next season, but actually thought it was refreshing to have a demanding trigger-happy board in FM, that never happens.

[fanir]

Brilliant, just brilliant!

After hours of rage quits and pulling my hair out, I've managed to sit down and gave the game another proper go, with of course from the wonderful advices and articles here. After 3 seasons, I got my beloved Hoffenheim from 5th/4th/1st in the Bundesliga, Europa League Semi-finalist in the second and Champions League Semi-finalist on the third. Although, there were times where we got absolutely stuffed but I told myself it's football and we'll get them next year, which we did eventually becoming champions of Germany, all with a bog-standard 451!

Anyway, my point is, to anyone whose having a rough time with the game, start reading up, never give up and also take those hard defeats in and move on. Thank you Jambo for helping me reignite my passion for the game again!

[Captain Bob]

Hi Jambo. My tactic has evolved from 442 to 451. What is your take on the squad balance for the striker position. I have my best striker and then two back ups, one younger one older, both with back up status. Obviously they both asked for more game at more or less the same time! So currently trying to involve them but need my main striker to keep my Hereford team in the conference play offs! This is the only area of the team that I have this problem as you can only play one of them. So was wondering if you have had this issue. I do have a 352 where I could play two of them as my third tactic but it is a bit Kevin Keegan and not good for my heart!

[Jambo98]

Hey Captain Bob.

It can depend a bit on the versatility of the player. In my 451 i used a very mobile and quick player in the stirker position as F9. That gave me extra flexibility as it tended to mean the player could be interchanged with either wide men or even the CM(a) - In essense the player type i targetted would likely be found more in a winger or AMC, so the players tended to be able to cover those roles.

At Athletic (covered in my seperate thread), I had a great setup where I had a set of players who regularly interchanged around:

Iker Munian - ST/MR/ML/MC

Raul Garcia - MR/ST/MC

Markel Susueta - MR/ML

Antione Greizmann - ML/MR/MC/ST

Ibai Gomez - MR/MC/ST/ML

Added to them i had 2 more "static players" to make up the squad depth:

Ariz Celihueta - MC (can play ML in a pinch)

Guillermo - ST

Now granted, you wont always be able to find such players but retraining helps, and also you can play players somewhat out of natural position and not really pay a penalty if he is suited enough to the role. There is a huge added benefit to the "versatility" - You can use it to vary your style. I detailed a lot of it in the Athletic thread, but if you look at the list of players above, without changing anything tactically i can create quite different approaches by deploying each in different areas - Pace and strength deployed differently

Anyway...if you dont have that versatility, then yes the squad balance is an issue. IMO its still a bit of mess in FM - You have "backup" contracted players complaining about lack of playing time only weeks into a season and it just goes on. It is hard to avoid, other than trying to rotate the squad a bit and replace your backup every 6 months!

[Captain Bob]

Thanks Jambo.

I currently use a DLFs, and at conference level the strikers available to me tend to be advanced forward or target men types. I am getting more out the more mobile AF type, so I think as you say to be able to get players with the right attributes to play wide midfield or as the attacking CM as an alternative position will be the plan.

[baddragon62]

My only comment would be that adding "roam from positions" and "be more expressive" on top of "very fluid" will likely produce overkill. I think there are some posts earlier where i made a similar mistake in my Liverpool save and ended up with the middle 3 in the same spaces.

Am I reading it right that the "be more expressive"/"roam from positions" TI's are more designed to loosen up the creative players in an otherwise rigid formation and provide a bit of positional drift/adventurous passing in said players?

[Jambo98]

Am I reading it right that the "be more expressive"/"roam from positions" TI's are more designed to loosen up the creative players in an otherwise rigid formation and provide a bit of positional drift/adventurous passing in said players?

It depends a little on context, but yes in general those 2 TI will give more creative freedom and allow players to drift around more. It generally follows that if they are already in a setup which allows that (via either lot of expressive roles, or a very fluid type of setup) then the effect might be to magnify that to the point it becomes too much.

So yes, i suppose i would be more likely to use these in a rigid type of setup, or where other aspects of of tactic dictated that i needed to allow more creativity.

[CaptainPlanet]

I've been using a flat 4-5-1 with Liverpool in 2025 all season and have played some astounding stuff. Almost feels like a cheat formation such has been the type of results I've had.

GK

FB-D

BPD-D

X-D

FB-D

WP-S

AP-S

DLP-S

AP-S

WP-S

DF-D

Have only conceded 5 goals in 15 league games, and all mid table and lower oppositions never get a shot on target.

[baddragon62]

It depends a little on context, but yes in general those 2 TI will give more creative freedom and allow players to drift around more. It generally follows that if they are already in a setup which allows that (via either lot of expressive roles, or a very fluid type of setup) then the effect might be to magnify that to the point it becomes too much.

So yes, i suppose i would be more likely to use these in a rigid type of setup, or where other aspects of of tactic dictated that i needed to allow more creativity.

If you wanted to give players more freedom on an individual basis you could use the "roam from position" PI, correct. Is there a PI that simulates the be more expressive TI? Maybe a PPM? I couldn't see one that did the same thing to my mind.

[burdinho]

I've used 451 a lot over the past 3 years with a fair amount of success. Im now at Reading and going OK in the championship, 4th after 11 games. Oddly enough I have only scored 1 goal away from home, carving out 3 goalless draws, a 1-1 draw and a bad 3-0 defeat. However I've won every home game and looking quite threatening.

So away I normally play 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-2wide-1. I've got a good squad with plenty of attacking prowess but there seems to be a blockage somewhere and Im not creating enough.

The 4-1-4-1 is as per RTHerringbone's system with attacking wing backs, although conor townsend at LB is a FB(S) I have ben marshall at WM® and on the left quite a few options in Robson-Kanu, Ermin Zec or Marko Martin...these are set to W(A). In the middle I have a combination of Honda, Karakan, Aaron Kuhl, Tom Cairney. I typically have Cairney or Kuhl at BBM and Honda or Karakan at CM (S)

Up front I think is where I'm having the problem. I have Pelle, Jose Angel Pozo, Veton Berisha or Novakovich. I tend to have Pozo as AF, or Berisha F9 when playing away.

Roles are:

SK (S)

CWB (S) at RB

2 x CD - D

FB (S) at LB

Anchorman (D)

BBM (S)

RPM (S)

AML and R - W(A)

AF (A)

Highly structured, away from home I mainly go counter.

TIs are: Prevent GK dist, play out of defence, shorter passing, pass into space.

PIs are:

GK - distribute to full backs

CBs - pass it shorter

BBM - get further forward

CM - hold position

AF - close down more

Last season I was at Bristol City and won L1 quite easily, and I've gone again for Highly Structured but with better technical players thinking it might be time to release the shackles a little bit, as I must be stifling the team too much.

I am aiming ideally for a 1 striker formation with multiple threats from deep and wide, but this isnt happening so far. Tactic familiarity is about 80% so Im keeping match training to tactics at the highest level until this is at the maximum.

[Christopher S]

Dead giveaways are your right side. CWB(s) + BBM + W(a) leaves you with no cover, since all three bombing forwards. General rule of thumb: if you're gonna have your fullback bomb forwards, you should probably have your wide man in front in a supporting role. You also have no support from the central midfield to justify an Advance Forward. Get your RPM over in a AP(a) or CM(a), and pull back your striker a tad. I suggest DLS(s), DF(s) - defending forwards are amazing at "lower levels" - or a F9 (if you have det player).

To summarize:

- Put your right winger to Wide Playmaker (s) or Winger (s) to give more cover - alternatively, change your fullback to a FB(s).

- Change striker to a supporting role to provide link-up with midfield.

- You need an attacking role in the midfield - a runner so to speak -, to provide depth in the attacking play, and better the transitions.

My two cents, at least. Good luck!

[burdinho]

great stuff thanks!

[Jambo98]

I've used 451 a lot over the past 3 years with a fair amount of success. Im now at Reading and going OK in the championship, 4th after 11 games. Oddly enough I have only scored 1 goal away from home, carving out 3 goalless draws, a 1-1 draw and a bad 3-0 defeat. However I've won every home game and looking quite threatening.

So away I normally play 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-2wide-1. I've got a good squad with plenty of attacking prowess but there seems to be a blockage somewhere and Im not creating enough.

The 4-1-4-1 is as per RTHerringbone's system with attacking wing backs, although conor townsend at LB is a FB(S) I have ben marshall at WM® and on the left quite a few options in Robson-Kanu, Ermin Zec or Marko Martin...these are set to W(A). In the middle I have a combination of Honda, Karakan, Aaron Kuhl, Tom Cairney. I typically have Cairney or Kuhl at BBM and Honda or Karakan at CM (S)

Up front I think is where I'm having the problem. I have Pelle, Jose Angel Pozo, Veton Berisha or Novakovich. I tend to have Pozo as AF, or Berisha F9 when playing away.

Roles are:

SK (S)

CWB (S) at RB

2 x CD - D

FB (S) at LB

Anchorman (D)

BBM (S)

RPM (S)

AML and R - W(A)

AF (A)

Highly structured, away from home I mainly go counter.

TIs are: Prevent GK dist, play out of defence, shorter passing, pass into space.

PIs are:

GK - distribute to full backs

CBs - pass it shorter

BBM - get further forward

CM - hold position

AF - close down more

Last season I was at Bristol City and won L1 quite easily, and I've gone again for Highly Structured but with better technical players thinking it might be time to release the shackles a little bit, as I must be stifling the team too much.

I am aiming ideally for a 1 striker formation with multiple threats from deep and wide, but this isnt happening so far. Tactic familiarity is about 80% so Im keeping match training to tactics at the highest level until this is at the maximum.

Well part of the problem would be that the roles/duty you typed out is neither 451 (the formation this thread advocates), nor is it 4141 as you described. its 41221. Or 433 if you use attack roles in the AML/R slots. Infact im pretty confused as to which tactic you are using based on your post

If you want multiple threats from deep and wide (which is a good approach IMO) then i cant say i see how your setup for that. Wingers are designed to stay wide, not get into the box, and if they are in the AML/R slots then they are already high up the field, so not a threat from deep? Likewise interested to see how you feel you CM combo will provide a true threat from deep?

I also think Highly Structured might not be best suited to this type of approach where you want more fluid movement between the lines?

Dead giveaways are your right side. CWB(s) + BBM + W(a) leaves you with no cover, since all three bombing forwards. General rule of thumb: if you're gonna have your fullback bomb forwards, you should probably have your wide man in front in a supporting role. You also have no support from the central midfield to justify an Advance Forward. Get your RPM over in a AP(a) or CM(a), and pull back your striker a tad. I suggest DLS(s), DF(s) - defending forwards are amazing at "lower levels" - or a F9 (if you have det player).

To summarize:

- Put your right winger to Wide Playmaker (s) or Winger (s) to give more cover - alternatively, change your fullback to a FB(s).

- Change striker to a supporting role to provide link-up with midfield.

- You need an attacking role in the midfield - a runner so to speak -, to provide depth in the attacking play, and better the transitions.

My two cents, at least. Good luck!

Whilst i agree with most of that advice, its worth noting that the very tactic which this thread is based on creating, has 2 x CWB(a) and 2 x WM(a) infront of it. So the "rule" about having a support wide man infront of an attacking fullback is not necessarily correct. You can see throughout the thread that the combo of these wide attack roles is what makes the tactic so potent, and as long as you understand the need for balance, you can avoid being defensively exposed (i cant even remember now, but i am reasonably sure i have posted examples of having the best defensive record in the league with the double attack wide duties).

[burdinho]

thanks both...jambo yes I am mainly using the 451 approach with AML/R but it was very stagnant.

Anyway since switching to Structure, Ive gone 16 games unbeaten and started scoring a lot more...tinkered with a couple of roles based on chris' advice. I've gone for a advanced playmaker to support the BBM Kuhl (who I cant recommend highly enough btw). Larsson is my wide playmaker if I go to a WM on the right flank, which complements my CWB Manquillo very well

I just won the 'parked the tank' achievement, 10 league games without conceding, so things are extremely solid as well...

[Christopher S]

Whilst i agree with most of that advice, its worth noting that the very tactic which this thread is based on creating, has 2 x CWB(a) and 2 x WM(a) infront of it. So the "rule" about having a support wide man infront of an attacking fullback is not necessarily correct. You can see throughout the thread that the combo of these wide attack roles is what makes the tactic so potent, and as long as you understand the need for balance, you can avoid being defensively exposed (i cant even remember now, but i am reasonably sure i have posted examples of having the best defensive record in the league with the double attack wide duties).

Agreed. I tried to come across with a sort of "it would be a good idea to"-attitude, might've failed at that - hehe.

Balance is key, as you say. I'm not really sure how to balanse his excact set-up though. Anywho.

Double attack wide duties is definitely viable, done correctly - it was just what stood out the clearest from his set-up, when looking at it.

BTW: any tips on balancing and keeping defensive security with double attackers on the sides?

[Jambo98]

Agreed. I tried to come across with a sort of "it would be a good idea to"-attitude, might've failed at that - hehe.

Balance is key, as you say. I'm not really sure how to balanse his excact set-up though. Anywho.

Double attack wide duties is definitely viable, done correctly - it was just what stood out the clearest from his set-up, when looking at it.

BTW: any tips on balancing and keeping defensive security with double attackers on the sides?

For me the balance and security aspect comes in how you deploy your middle 3 in such a setup. The most common way, is to have a "central" (of the middle 3) defensive player and then some combo of Support duties infront. For me, this lacks logic. The guy who you want to add to your defensive setup is located smack bang in the middle of the pitch. Your areas of weakness are far away from the middle of the pitch (the flanks, with the double attack duties).

This is where i did the converse. I made the middle guy my attacking type, and stationed 2 defensive types in the "outer middle" slots. This mean they are closer to the flanks to provide cover and there are also 2 of them to provide the rock solid base for the tactic. The DLP role, with split duties, provided the perfect way to do this. They drop deep enough without being too aggressive, and also play a vital role when we do have possession. By splitting the duties, i created a "two layer" shield. The amount of second balls the DLP(s) wins is huge - Balls where my DC's tackle/intercept/header and it lands in the MC area, and instead of being faced with a second wave, my DLP sweeps it up and starts a forward move.

Equally important is the solid defensive shape overall and thats where formation is important, and where people miss the difference between a "true" 451 and setups like the one the recent poster outlined which is not a 451. The flat 451 means all 5 midfielders will contribute to defending, because our defensive shape has them all in good positions. All 3 of my attack duty midfielders contribute lots without the ball.

Hope that makes sense and helps. I just completed my "simplicity" season (my other thread) and achieved the best defensive record in the league with QPR (season 3). You can be brilliant defensively with double attack duty flanks

[burdinho]

Thanks all for your input.

4141 and 451 were the mainstays of my season and I won the championship with Reading at a canter. 103 points and I was very solid defensively.

My goal scoring output wasn't great - my top scorers both scored 10, but my approach was more successful with structured. I may go to flexible next season in the Prem as I aim to sign better creative players

[pedromanuelpinto]

Hi,

What the opinion about this role to play:

Counter/Flexible

GK: GK (d) with roll it out and fewer risky passes

RD: WB (a)

CD: CD (d)

LD: FB (s)

RM: WP (a)

CMr: CM (d)

CM: CM (a)

CMl: CM (s)

LM: WM (a)

ST: CF (s)

TI:

Reatin Possession

Shorter Passing

Pass into space

Play out of defense

Much Higher Defensive line

Roam from position

Close down much more

Offside trap

Thanks,

[Jean0987654321]

Hi,

What the opinion about this role to play:

Counter/Flexible

GK: GK (d) with roll it out and fewer risky passes

RD: WB (a)

CD: CD (d)

LD: FB (s)

RM: WP (a)

CMr: CM (d)

CM: CM (a)

CMl: CM (s)

LM: WM (a)

ST: CF (s)

TI:

Reatin Possession

Shorter Passing

Pass into space

Play out of defense

Much Higher Defensive line

Roam from position

Close down much more

Offside trap

Thanks,

I can't say much but for the fact that it looks good enough for me. I can think of changing that LB to a WB (s), but I can't find anything else wrong.

[Jambo98]

Hi,

What the opinion about this role to play:

Counter/Flexible

GK: GK (d) with roll it out and fewer risky passes

RD: WB (a)

CD: CD (d)

LD: FB (s)

RM: WP (a)

CMr: CM (d)

CM: CM (a)

CMl: CM (s)

LM: WM (a)

ST: CF (s)

TI:

Reatin Possession

Shorter Passing

Pass into space

Play out of defense

Much Higher Defensive line

Roam from position

Close down much more

Offside trap

Thanks,

There is nothing in role sand duties that i would say jumps out as clashing or conflicting or not making sense. You could certainly be more adventurous with the LB if you wanted to be. The flat 5 in midfield and especially the MCL and MCL give you the freedom to have quite attacking fullbacks.

They absolute key to this though, as with any tactic, will be making sure it suits your players. You need the right players in key places - Especially the wide men and the CM(a) - The CM(a) is a tricky beast to get right and can be a bit of a key to the tactic. Likewise the striker. Pay heed to PPMs for all your players as the wrong type in any place can throw off the balance

On the TI, only comment would be that Retain Possession and Shorter passing double up. (Retain possession already shortens passing). You might want to be conscious of that.

[Torskus77]

The Much Higher defensive line and Counter mentality is exactly where I am at with my tactic now. Works Nicely for what I want, keeps your side nice and compact. I set my team up to be a bit more direct than you want to be.

Anyway I'd say be ware of the closing down TI's, it's caused me many problems with defenders charging out and leaving holes. I prefer to set my players to close down more individually, I can actually press different areas of the pitch at any given time, or stand off if I wish too.

[fanir]

There is nothing in role sand duties that i would say jumps out as clashing or conflicting or not making sense. You could certainly be more adventurous with the LB if you wanted to be. The flat 5 in midfield and especially the MCL and MCL give you the freedom to have quite attacking fullbacks.

They absolute key to this though, as with any tactic, will be making sure it suits your players. You need the right players in key places - Especially the wide men and the CM(a) - The CM(a) is a tricky beast to get right and can be a bit of a key to the tactic. Likewise the striker. Pay heed to PPMs for all your players as the wrong type in any place can throw off the balance

On the TI, only comment would be that Retain Possession and Shorter passing double up. (Retain possession already shortens passing). You might want to be conscious of that.

Curious about your thoughts on the CM(a). They don't always arrive 'late' into the box and almost always rushes into the box too early. I currently have a BBM instead over there partnered with a RPM and it works very well. There's always someone to 'recycle' the ball if a move breaks down.

[pedromanuelpinto]

I have changed the Mentality to Possession, the Counter wasn't risking anything in the attak....

[Jambo98]

Curious about your thoughts on the CM(a). They don't always arrive 'late' into the box and almost always rushes into the box too early. I currently have a BBM instead over there partnered with a RPM and it works very well. There's always someone to 'recycle' the ball if a move breaks down.

Its a topic i think RTH and i discussed, either earlier in this thread or maybe elsewhere. At times (and apologies, this isnt soley aimed at you) there is a bit of an unreasonable expectation that all CM(a) position players should be Frank Lampard or Paul Scholes and arrive late in the box for 15 goals a season. There is a reason that Scholes and Lampard are just about the only 2 examples of this player type across Europe in the last 20 years...... Its a rare quality to have in a player. So why should we assume we can stick even a world class player Like Fabregas, Oxlade-Chamberlin, Mata etc in that spot and get the same results?

Firstly, look at the type of football that is needed to make the "late arriving" CM a possibility. Both Lampard and Scholes did this primarily when their respective sides played quite a direct and high tempo game. Fast paced, balls out wide then a midfielder arriving late to score. Its not really going to work in a possession based system is it? Your CM cant really "arrive late" when is already there....... So first up, if you want this type of player in your system, you need to think about it in the overall framework.

Then there is the player you need. For me its a very rare skillset and you talking about needing very high "off the ball", "anticipation", "first touch" and "finishing". Also you will need the PPM "arrives late in the opponents area", since its a special skillset and the PPM will help drive it.

For me, thats not what i want to achieve with my CM(a), mainly as i realise its just not realistic in most teams, and particularly not in what is a relatively possession hungry system. I want my CM(a) to be my own definition of a "central winger". The closest real life example i can give is the few games where Sterling played at the top of the 442 diamond for liverpool last year. I want a player who will pick the ball up and dribble with it through the heart of the pitch. I want a winger skillset, but uprooted and planted bang in the middle of the field.

It often wont lead to huge goal totals for the CM(a) , as the dribbles will rarely take them into scoring position in one run. However he will get lots of assist and will link closely with the F9. I usuall look for around 10 goals a season if i can get a real great player here. Still my fave was the examples in this thread of Sterling and Markovic. Once they learned the PPMs i needed, they were lethal

[fanir]

Its a topic i think RTH and i discussed, either earlier in this thread or maybe elsewhere. At times (and apologies, this isnt soley aimed at you) there is a bit of an unreasonable expectation that all CM(a) position players should be Frank Lampard or Paul Scholes and arrive late in the box for 15 goals a season. There is a reason that Scholes and Lampard are just about the only 2 examples of this player type across Europe in the last 20 years...... Its a rare quality to have in a player. So why should we assume we can stick even a world class player Like Fabregas, Oxlade-Chamberlin, Mata etc in that spot and get the same results?

Firstly, look at the type of football that is needed to make the "late arriving" CM a possibility. Both Lampard and Scholes did this primarily when their respective sides played quite a direct and high tempo game. Fast paced, balls out wide then a midfielder arriving late to score. Its not really going to work in a possession based system is it? Your CM cant really "arrive late" when is already there....... So first up, if you want this type of player in your system, you need to think about it in the overall framework.

Then there is the player you need. For me its a very rare skillset and you talking about needing very high "off the ball", "anticipation", "first touch" and "finishing". Also you will need the PPM "arrives late in the opponents area", since its a special skillset and the PPM will help drive it.

For me, thats not what i want to achieve with my CM(a), mainly as i realise its just not realistic in most teams, and particularly not in what is a relatively possession hungry system. I want my CM(a) to be my own definition of a "central winger". The closest real life example i can give is the few games where Sterling played at the top of the 442 diamond for liverpool last year. I want a player who will pick the ball up and dribble with it through the heart of the pitch. I want a winger skillset, but uprooted and planted bang in the middle of the field.

It often wont lead to huge goal totals for the CM(a) , as the dribbles will rarely take them into scoring position in one run. However he will get lots of assist and will link closely with the F9. I usuall look for around 10 goals a season if i can get a real great player here. Still my fave was the examples in this thread of Sterling and Markovic. Once they learned the PPMs i needed, they were lethal

I totally get where you're coming from but what I meant was not having a specialist goalscorer that arrives late but one that form support near the box for the rest of the midfielders. With CM(a), it looks like he's always looking to get into the box ASAP. Brilliant thought on the central winger, will definitely give it a go. One thing is that I would have him run wide to the wings to drag the oppositions defenders further.

[Jambo98]

I totally get where you're coming from but what I meant was not having a specialist goalscorer that arrives late but one that form support near the box for the rest of the midfielders. With CM(a), it looks like he's always looking to get into the box ASAP. Brilliant thought on the central winger, will definitely give it a go. One thing is that I would have him run wide to the wings to drag the oppositions defenders further.

The running to the wings is exactly the purpose of the "real life" central winger - Its very much how Di Maria performed at Real which somewhat spurned the modern use of the role/term (although its by no means the first time its been seen).

Personally, i dont find that him running wide drags anyone. He just runs into areas where the full back is. If i can get myself a world class dribbler, i want him running at players in the area of the pitch where it is the most dangerous - The middle and towards the box. Also with him supporing a striker who drops deep, and the WM attacking the box from the angle, its a central overload which the opposition struggles to handle.

[hugorafael]

I find this particular 451 very handy to mid table teams, the balance is perfect.

I would like to know your thoughts how you approach sides who are comfortable to attack you and sides who like to sit deep and hit you on the counter.

Congrats for the wonderful thread!

I found that with this style of playing I recover the ball immediately after an interception made by the opposition team.

You should put more emphasis on that particular aspect. I guess it's because we have 2 DLP .

[pedromanuelpinto]

Hi,

I had to start a new save, but still want to handle this. The problem is in the Striker... I tried CF and Trequardista and didn't work (with counter and possession). Thinking about AF...

[Jambo98]

I find this particular 451 very handy to mid table teams, the balance is perfect.

I would like to know your thoughts how you approach sides who are comfortable to attack you and sides who like to sit deep and hit you on the counter.

Congrats for the wonderful thread!

I found that with this style of playing I recover the ball immediately after an interception made by the opposition team.

You should put more emphasis on that particular aspect. I guess it's because we have 2 DLP .

I have used it to success with all levels of teams, from Scottish League 2, to bottom of the premiership, to the Top of Serie A. A solid tactic will, in general, work at all levels - Provided you ensure you have players to suit it and execute it. Always the key

In terms of how to approach different types of team, its interesting. In the simplicity thread i have never once changed to suit any team a play, over the course of 8 seasons in 2 saves i have never started with anything other than "standard" and have rarely tweaked anything other than minor.

To contrast that a bit however, when i used this in my long term Athletic save, i did hit this problem a bit. I will try and dig out the link to the exact post, but what i did was go a bit counter intuative. I used mainly the dline modifier to adapt. Against teams who sit in deep against us, i removed "Push higher up" and even moved "drop deeper" at times - I used this to draw the opposition out a bit and create more space in behind.

Against bigger teams, i found i was often being pushed back much deeper than i wanted to and strugged to get out. At times i used "Much Higher Dline" to try and stop this. I also would look for weaknesses that are created by ultra attacking teams, such as gaps in behind wingbacks when playing against Real or in behind when playing Barca.

Not to sure on your final point. The DLP wont really help with "immediate recover" as such, since they are designed to do the opposite - they dont close down overly. However what i do often observe is that the 2 DLP win a lot of "second ball". Anytime the opposition send a long or direct pass towards my defence which is tackled/cleared/headed out, they are so often there to pick up the second ball, which is vital in that area of the pitch

Hi,

I had to start a new save, but still want to handle this. The problem is in the Striker... I tried CF and Trequardista and didn't work (with counter and possession). Thinking about AF...

A lot depends on the player type, but if you are playing with the similar approach to me (the 2 x WM(a) and CM(a)) i think a deeper striker is pretty essentially. Whilst i know i have preached that its not about copying me and expecting success, there is no reason you shouldnt try the F9 role, which for me makes this system work just nicely

[Jambo98]

I find this particular 451 very handy to mid table teams, the balance is perfect.

I would like to know your thoughts how you approach sides who are comfortable to attack you and sides who like to sit deep and hit you on the counter.

Congrats for the wonderful thread!

I found that with this style of playing I recover the ball immediately after an interception made by the opposition team.

You should put more emphasis on that particular aspect. I guess it's because we have 2 DLP .

I have used it to success with all levels of teams, from Scottish League 2, to bottom of the premiership, to the Top of Serie A. A solid tactic will, in general, work at all levels - Provided you ensure you have players to suit it and execute it. Always the key

In terms of how to approach different types of team, its interesting. In the simplicity thread i have never once changed to suit any team a play, over the course of 8 seasons in 2 saves i have never started with anything other than "standard" and have rarely tweaked anything other than minor.

To contrast that a bit however, when i used this in my long term Athletic save, i did hit this problem a bit. I will try and dig out the link to the exact post, but what i did was go a bit counter intuative. I used mainly the dline modifier to adapt. Against teams who sit in deep against us, i removed "Push higher up" and even moved "drop deeper" at times - I used this to draw the opposition out a bit and create more space in behind.

Against bigger teams, i found i was often being pushed back much deeper than i wanted to and strugged to get out. At times i used "Much Higher Dline" to try and stop this. I also would look for weaknesses that are created by ultra attacking teams, such as gaps in behind wingbacks when playing against Real or in behind when playing Barca.

Not to sure on your final point. The DLP wont really help with "immediate recover" as such, since they are designed to do the opposite - they dont close down overly. However what i do often observe is that the 2 DLP win a lot of "second ball". Anytime the opposition send a long or direct pass towards my defence which is tackled/cleared/headed out, they are so often there to pick up the second ball, which is vital in that area of the pitch

Hi,

I had to start a new save, but still want to handle this. The problem is in the Striker... I tried CF and Trequardista and didn't work (with counter and possession). Thinking about AF...

A lot depends on the player type, but if you are playing with the similar approach to me (the 2 x WM(a) and CM(a)) i think a deeper striker is pretty essentially. Whilst i know i have preached that its not about copying me and expecting success, there is no reason you shouldnt try the F9 role, which for me makes this system work just nicely

[hugorafael]

Not to sure on your final point. The DLP wont really help with "immediate recover" as such, since they are designed to do the opposite - they dont close down overly. However what i do often observe is that the 2 DLP win a lot of "second ball". Anytime the opposition send a long or direct pass towards my defence which is tackled/cleared/headed out, they are so often there to pick up the second ball, which is vital in that area of the pitch

That's exactly what I meant Jambo98

I posted about your system in this thread, can you take a look?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/426113-4-5-1-in-FM14-Tuning-ideas-needed?p=10302741#post10302741

[Jambo98]

I will try to take a look when i can (on a train now so limited connection for accessing stuff).

My first reaction though is to check your expectations. You are Newcastle, i assume in season One, with only a couple of signings who are not exactly superstars. You are playing Chelsea, whom in season 1 are one of the best teams in Europe.

What is your expectation out of that match? If you have reached a plateau and that plateau is second in the league in season one with Newcastle, then are you not happy with that? You are performing above the level of players you have already.

Basically, you cant win every game Or at least not with the system i used (I am sure some others can do better and indeed often do achieve bigger things with smaller clubs).

[hugorafael]

I know Jambo98, I just need a little more tactical variation (change TI, PI or roles), I believe small changes can make a huge impact in the way my team plays. For example Chelsea played in 4-2-3-1 and I couldn't find space behind their midfield and create lethal counter attacks. My team was suffocated by Chelsea pressure.

I think I could have done something more to improve our tactic and be more dynamic when attacking and find spaces behind Chelsea midfield.

There's a tendency to lose against big teams.

[Jambo98]

I kinda go back to what i said before - Might the reason that you often lose to bigger teams be simply, that they are quite a bit better than you at this stage?

Your players are probably good enough for 7th or 8th at very best. For context, i just looked up the 3 main signings you made in my game, which is in 2020. Thelander is Crystal Palace U21 team waiting to be released, Jojic and Periera are at Granada and Braga respectively. These type of players are likely all you can get in season 1, but you really have to temper expectations IMO. Perez is not yet developed enough to be a top 4/6 team first choice striker.

Sometimes the big teams will just beat you. I know its sometimes tricky because there are some real "experts" on these forums who can achieve great things with small teams. I respect them and admire them, but for most of us, its not possible.

If you really are obsessively wanting to look at out performing to that degree, your going to have to get down to micro management in some ways. For the Chelsea game, i might have gone "Much higher Dline" and "exploit the flanks" and possibly take off "shorter passing".

The even higher Dline is to try and counteract some of the natural "pushing back" that happens against such a top side, but you need to watch for balls in behind and particularly with Colocini who is slower than a week in jail. With Chelsea having the wide men pushed high, you might find the flanks an area to exploit, but equally you need to be able to generate the supply which is not always easy. In a game like that, i might also look to play a more physical striker, to help hold the ball up more because you are going to have less possession and be deeper. Perez is tricky and fast, but in a game like this i might get creative. I might stick him at CM(a) and put either Cisse (if you still have him) or even Sissoko at F9 (although Sissoko was lethal at WM in the short newcastle save i did a while ago).

Your season there reminds me a little of my second QPR season in the simplicity thread/approach (which used this tactic exlusively). We were good enough to beat most lower teams and we had no issues really with parked bus teams, but the big boys were just flat out better than us. How did i get past it? I bought better players, more suited players, blended them in ,looked at the basics like set pieces etc. Won the league the next season.

[jukilo]

Hi Jambo!

I've a question for you. I know that this formation is very solid and well balanced, specially given the normal superiority in the middle, but how do you deal when you play against an AMC? Be it a passer or a goal scorer. Can you give examples of that?

I've tried to develop a 4-4-2 (Remember the Capello project? Haha. I know it's different and loses a men in midfield) but I was always torned a part when I played against one. I tried to lower the dline, tone down the mentality, etc. All with no success.

I was playing with Arsenal and played a midfield duo consisting of Wilshere or Ramsey and Flamini. The roles were RPM and CM with defend duty. I was playing with the transfers blocked in the first window to give more realism. That may be one of the causes, I know, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this one. I've not tried it again but I'm tempted to give it another go with maybe Bender or someone like him in the midfield.

Oh and thanks for your contribution to the forum. It's been a great read because it's all very fundamented even if I disagree with some of your points.

Cheers!

[Jambo98]

Hey jukilo, good to hear from you

I have never found that AMC gives me any problem, mainly because of the 2 DLP. The DLP(d) in particular drops back into that space often, and because that role has less closing down, he doesnt get dragged around. The presence of that extra man in the CM strata in my case makes a huge difference. The CM(a) i most often talk about as the central winger and how he gets forward, but he also contributes plenty defensively, because helps close the space. Also the 2 WM make a difference because they drop back enough that the CM strata players dont have to every move towards the flanks, which prevents space opening up in the area an AMC might play in.

Lastly the higher line helps - closes the distance between the Dline and midfield which naturally reduces the room for an opposing AMC.

Those 2 roles in the CM strata do sound like they would leave you exposed. The RPM is going to move around a lot and get forward, and i think the CM(d) has a reasonably high level of closing down. Might need to re-think that partnership?

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Any particular posts? It seems like most are still there and would take ages to go back through each post. Is there one in particular you are after, and i will see what i can do?

Do you play the WM to cut inside?

I was examining your transitions and I thought the whole purpose of bringing back from the AM to MR/L was for extra defensive cover and variability of play. WM/A moving up and cutting in makes sense, deeper inside forwards in effect.

Also I saw mention of the CM/A not quite getting beyond the forward and the difficulty of the combination. I was surprised that DLF/A role didn't get mentioned. That would presumably get the striker to drop deep, lay off the ball (presumably to the CM/A or wing players) and launch himself into the box. This would do two things; a) It would give a focal point in the box (along with the two inside forwards) and b) it would presumably flummox the opposition because if they follow him deep, as you would hope a decent marker would do, they now have to decide whether to track him back into the box or divert their attentions to the encroaching CM/A who I would hazard a guess at being in line or just before the DLF area. That would be a serious hazard for any team not playing a natural DM to block off that little one-two.

[Jambo98]

Do you play the WM to cut inside?

I was examining your transitions and I thought the whole purpose of bringing back from the AM to MR/L was for extra defensive cover and variability of play. WM/A moving up and cutting in makes sense, deeper inside forwards in effect.

Also I saw mention of the CM/A not quite getting beyond the forward and the difficulty of the combination. I was surprised that DLF/A role didn't get mentioned. That would presumably get the striker to drop deep, lay off the ball (presumably to the CM/A or wing players) and launch himself into the box. This would do two things; a) It would give a focal point in the box (along with the two inside forwards) and b) it would presumably flummox the opposition because if they follow him deep, as you would hope a decent marker would do, they now have to decide whether to track him back into the box or divert their attentions to the encroaching CM/A who I would hazard a guess at being in line or just before the DLF area. That would be a serious hazard for any team not playing a natural DM to block off that little one-two.

didnt expect to see this thread come back.......although as it happens, this is still my faithful system i start with in every save

yes, both my WM are set to "cut inside" and "cross less", which makes them act like IF but with far more defensive stability, and also far more arriving late from deep which creates space.

The DLF(a) is not going to help the CM(a) get beyond i wouldnt think? The F9 is the deepest of all ST roles which is what i use. However feel free to give it a go with DLF(a) if you think it would work - with the right thought to the roles around him, and the player type, a number of ST roles can work in this system.

The F9 causes the other team to step up, which can open the space for the WM and even the CWB. Thats why i like this. Different focal points to the attack

[isignedupfornorealreason]

didnt expect to see this thread come back.......although as it happens, this is still my faithful system i start with in every save

yes, both my WM are set to "cut inside" and "cross less", which makes them act like IF but with far more defensive stability, and also far more arriving late from deep which creates space.

The DLF(a) is not going to help the CM(a) get beyond i wouldnt think? The F9 is the deepest of all ST roles which is what i use. However feel free to give it a go with DLF(a) if you think it would work - with the right thought to the roles around him, and the player type, a number of ST roles can work in this system.

The F9 causes the other team to step up, which can open the space for the WM and even the CWB. Thats why i like this. Different focal points to the attack

I tried it initially, and it did bring some combination play but I was being hounded by the assistant that the 'gap was too big'! So I went DLF/S in the end.

I actually moved away from your modifications and towards your original set up funny enough. I was noticing that the WM's were far too narrow and the WB's simply weren't getting the width enough for me. At first I experimented with taking off the 'sit narrower' but that just made the middle more open for the opposition to exploit. So in the end I shifted one side to a winger / full back in order to gain more width. I also jiggled the midfield trio around, the CM/A went to the right, the DLP/S went left and the defensive midfielder stayed central, this was because I noticed the CM/A would go missing closing down or chasing things and that would cause a left/right midfield combination to cross over.

This may be just cos I had crap players (Aston Villa!) but shifting the roles around settled things as if the defensive duo needed to shift, they would now do it as a pair rather than as one person running too far over. If I were to adjust it further, I would change the full back to a wing back on support in order to get him to sit up in midfield behind the CM/A and W/A because I find the FB/S role sits him far too deep at times.

The other issue I identified with my set up was a failure of the players to MOVE forward. If the ball was given to the striker on the halfway line, then the rest of the midfield would be reluctant to actually push up. A pain in the butt at times, and a conundrum I will never solve... I play as counter mostly, so that might be a reason for it. As for never getting to find out, I got sacked! Not performance related, thank christ - never been sacked on performance so far, simply a new board decided they wanted Fat Sam (West Ham, relegation zone) instead of me (9th, comfortably)... -_-;; Bah!

*EDIT* I might actually get to experiment, reloaded the game and this time the board offered me a new contract instead! Joy!

[Jambo98]

I tried it initially, and it did bring some combination play but I was being hounded by the assistant that the 'gap was too big'! So I went DLF/S in the end.

I actually moved away from your modifications and towards your original set up funny enough. I was noticing that the WM's were far too narrow and the WB's simply weren't getting the width enough for me. At first I experimented with taking off the 'sit narrower' but that just made the middle more open for the opposition to exploit. So in the end I shifted one side to a winger / full back in order to gain more width. I also jiggled the midfield trio around, the CM/A went to the right, the DLP/S went left and the defensive midfielder stayed central, this was because I noticed the CM/A would go missing closing down or chasing things and that would cause a left/right midfield combination to cross over.

This may be just cos I had crap players (Aston Villa!) but shifting the roles around settled things as if the defensive duo needed to shift, they would now do it as a pair rather than as one person running too far over. If I were to adjust it further, I would change the full back to a wing back on support in order to get him to sit up in midfield behind the CM/A and W/A because I find the FB/S role sits him far too deep at times.

The other issue I identified with my set up was a failure of the players to MOVE forward. If the ball was given to the striker on the halfway line, then the rest of the midfield would be reluctant to actually push up. A pain in the butt at times, and a conundrum I will never solve... I play as counter mostly, so that might be a reason for it. As for never getting to find out, I got sacked! Not performance related, thank christ - never been sacked on performance so far, simply a new board decided they wanted Fat Sam (West Ham, relegation zone) instead of me (9th, comfortably)... -_-;; Bah!

*EDIT* I might actually get to experiment, reloaded the game and this time the board offered me a new contract instead! Joy!

Well, i would never listen to the assistant on tactics TBH, its a weak element of the game. There will always be a gap in this sytem, but think of it this way.......is it a gap, or is it space which can be used?

One think that i did preach throughout this thread, is the need to consider the players at your disposal, and in particular the need for PPMs. The system is built to take advantage of particular player traits, and without them it becomes nothing better than an average system. It wont be terrible, but it wont be the killers system i deployed with Liverpool / Hearts / Bilbao / QPR / Napoli / Schalke (winning leagues with them all plus anbeaten treble season with Barca).

Your wingbacks will fit the system much better with "gets forward whenever possible" or "runs with the ball down left/right". The system does need the WM to come narrow to provide the attacking thrust, but as you have probably noted, it becomes less effective if no one is going outside them.

Likewise the CM(a) is a player who is key to this, and the player choice is vital. You need a player who will be aggresive - again with the PPMS - Things like "gets forward whenever possible" or "gets into the opposition area" and "runs with the ball through the centre". I had great success with a winger in this roll, even if they appear "out of position". You want a runner here. I also deliberately want a guy here in the middle who does a bit of closing down. We are pushed up, and our other 2 CMs are "sitters", so we need some players to put pressure on the ball and the CM(a) / F9 tend to do that and work hard. Put that together with WM who will actually work back a lot, and you can see how this system can get the best defensive record in the league repeatedly, even with not the best squad.

I actually created a tweaked system when playing as San Marino, and trying to overcome the mighty Juve 6 seasons into the game. I moved the CM(a) to SS, and made the striker a CF(a). I then changed the right side to be W(a) and WB(s), on the left i went to WP and CWB(a) . It was a very very effective tactic, and i still use it to mix things up a bit. The SS can be deadly with the right CF ahead of him creating space, and the WP is an interesting addition if you have the right player type.

If you are in season 1 with Villa, this system might be tricky. The players are poor. Gil might work as the CM(a) but im not sure you have the right striker or wide men?

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Well, i would never listen to the assistant on tactics TBH, its a weak element of the game. There will always be a gap in this sytem, but think of it this way.......is it a gap, or is it space which can be used?

One think that i did preach throughout this thread, is the need to consider the players at your disposal, and in particular the need for PPMs. The system is built to take advantage of particular player traits, and without them it becomes nothing better than an average system. It wont be terrible, but it wont be the killers system i deployed with Liverpool / Hearts / Bilbao / QPR / Napoli / Schalke (winning leagues with them all plus anbeaten treble season with Barca).

Your wingbacks will fit the system much better with "gets forward whenever possible" or "runs with the ball down left/right". The system does need the WM to come narrow to provide the attacking thrust, but as you have probably noted, it becomes less effective if no one is going outside them.

Likewise the CM(a) is a player who is key to this, and the player choice is vital. You need a player who will be aggresive - again with the PPMS - Things like "gets forward whenever possible" or "gets into the opposition area" and "runs with the ball through the centre". I had great success with a winger in this roll, even if they appear "out of position". You want a runner here. I also deliberately want a guy here in the middle who does a bit of closing down. We are pushed up, and our other 2 CMs are "sitters", so we need some players to put pressure on the ball and the CM(a) / F9 tend to do that and work hard. Put that together with WM who will actually work back a lot, and you can see how this system can get the best defensive record in the league repeatedly, even with not the best squad.

I actually created a tweaked system when playing as San Marino, and trying to overcome the mighty Juve 6 seasons into the game. I moved the CM(a) to SS, and made the striker a CF(a). I then changed the right side to be W(a) and WB(s), on the left i went to WP and CWB(a) . It was a very very effective tactic, and i still use it to mix things up a bit. The SS can be deadly with the right CF ahead of him creating space, and the WP is an interesting addition if you have the right player type.

If you are in season 1 with Villa, this system might be tricky. The players are poor. Gil might work as the CM(a) but im not sure you have the right striker or wide men?

I finished 8th, we had the third best defensive record conceding a mere 38 goals, but as you noted, striking options were limited, especially as Benteke wanted to leave and was sold to Chelsea for 20 million. That meant we only netted 48 times. -_-;;

The players are indeed poor, Westwood was the perfect DLP/D. I used Bacuna as DLP/S rotated with Cleverley because Gil was inconsistent in the centre midfield sadly. Delph was who I threw on as the CM/A, he did alright but lacked composure to score often. Grealish on the right as a winger was ok, Sinclair as the WM on the left netted 10 times! Benteke had 8 goals in 10 before he ran off and we had Weimann to replace him and he did... well useless really!

I'm looking forward to the second season now, bought in two new Fullbacks - they are such a hard position to find talent for... Oh and a new striker who is tailor made as a Treq. I reckon I need a CM/A as you said, but I don't think we have the resources for it yet!

[yipster1986]

I finished 8th, we had the third best defensive record conceding a mere 38 goals, but as you noted, striking options were limited, especially as Benteke wanted to leave and was sold to Chelsea for 20 million. That meant we only netted 48 times. -_-;;

The players are indeed poor, Westwood was the perfect DLP/D. I used Bacuna as DLP/S rotated with Cleverley because Gil was inconsistent in the centre midfield sadly. Delph was who I threw on as the CM/A, he did alright but lacked composure to score often. Grealish on the right as a winger was ok, Sinclair as the WM on the left netted 10 times! Benteke had 8 goals in 10 before he ran off and we had Weimann to replace him and he did... well useless really!

I'm looking forward to the second season now, bought in two new Fullbacks - they are such a hard position to find talent for... Oh and a new striker who is tailor made as a Treq. I reckon I need a CM/A as you said, but I don't think we have the resources for it yet!

Maybe retrain Graelish for the CM/A slot. Or find an additional winger and retrain him? I find that having such a dribbler down the middle works really well in this tactic.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Maybe retrain Graelish for the CM/A slot. Or find an additional winger and retrain him? I find that having such a dribbler down the middle works really well in this tactic.

Good idea, didn't think of that. Love Grealish as my out and out winger though, he got fans player of the year!

I just signed Michael Carrick on a free... That should certainly give some creative oomph to the midfield. The problem is everytime I find a nice player to buy, I have to put the deal on hold as Arsenal or some other club comes along to pinch my current set of players... Just lost Okore to Arsenal for 20 million. Good fee, but still. =(

[MrMourinho]

I have just finished reading this great thread. One of the most interesting I have read. I printed it out and took a comfortable seat in my favorite armchair with a cup of coffee. I am inspired to having a go with a base formation like the 4-5-1 and then see how I can develop it. One question though: I am not able to view all the pictures in this thread. Is it because my web browser or is it just not possible to view all pictures? There seem to be quite many that I can't view...

[Jambo98]

I have just finished reading this great thread. One of the most interesting I have read. I printed it out and took a comfortable seat in my favorite armchair with a cup of coffee. I am inspired to having a go with a base formation like the 4-5-1 and then see how I can develop it. One question though: I am not able to view all the pictures in this thread. Is it because my web browser or is it just not possible to view all pictures? There seem to be quite many that I can't view...

Thanks - Glad you enjoyed it. There is a lot of good stuff now that i look back over it.

There appeared to be a problem with a few of the links to image. I have gone through and updated most of them, minus a few unimportant player screenshots. It was kinda fun to look back over it all Hopefully you can see them all now if you look back

As an aside, i still swear by this system. Use it in almost every save, from Barcelona to the South African second division. League titles with QPR, Schalke , Napoli and others. It remains effective as long as you take heed of the player types needed, manage the squad appropriately and effective, take heed of training and set pieces and play the media correctly.