The 4-5-1 - The swiss army knife of formations?

[Jambo98]

Sorry realised i only answered the first part of your question Mark.

The Wide Men

You raise an interesting question in terms of variation. If you recall back to the start of the thread, my initial concept was to use this approach - To have different threats from each side. One side was the WM(a) / CWB(a) combo with the other side being a W(a) and FB(s) type combo. In previous attempts i have often gone towards this type of asymetry, and indeed it is often encouraged.

After some great discussion in this thread, i moved to a symetrical approach. In conjunction wiht making Sterling a central winger, this left me with 2 players who were perfect for the WM(a) role in Coutinho and Lallana, with another very similar and able back up in Suso. I have also developed Henderson into a very dependable rotation player from this position, although he tends to be more hard working and less flair than the other 3. What i find now is that i get very similar behavior from both sides. They both get into the box. Part of this will be PPM related i think. Here are some of the details of the 2 players, their footedness, the PPMs and goals/assists

Coutinho - Right footed (left is "reasonable") - Tries Killer Balls Often, Places Shots, Plays One-Twos - 12 goals, 18 assists

Lallana - Right footed (left is "strong") - Gets into Opposition Area, Tries Killer Balls Often, Argues with Official, Plays One-Twos - 14 goals, 13 assists

Below is one example of them getting into the box. At times this formation plays like a 433 and these 2 players, as you can see by the goal and assists total, are a huge part of the overall system

Hope this helps as you think about how to best set up your own system

[Sardaukar]

I used this tactic when I started my second game as Liverpool FC manager (my favourite team too). Lets say I didn't have the best start... First 5 pre-season games, 1 win, 1 draw, 3 losses. I was starting to wonder what the hell...

I checked the match stats and saw that team had lot of shots but very few on target, despite having "Work Ball into Box". Tried to fiddle with TIs, but solution I found out was to make FC Advanced Forward instead of F9. Result was immediate and beat next team 1-5, also looking way more dangerous and creating lot more chances. Also Sterling works for me lot better as WM-R(A) than CM(A), seems that Lambert is getting good results in latter.

Maybe I am getting this tactic to work for me, slowly.

[Jambo98]

I used this tactic when I started my second game as Liverpool FC manager (my favourite team too). Lets say I didn't have the best start... First 5 pre-season games, 1 win, 1 draw, 3 losses. I was starting to wonder what the hell...

I checked the match stats and saw that team had lot of shots but very few on target, despite having "Work Ball into Box". Tried to fiddle with TIs, but solution I found out was to make FC Advanced Forward instead of F9. Result was immediate and beat next team 1-5, also looking way more dangerous and creating lot more chances. Also Sterling works for me lot better as WM-R(A) than CM(A), seems that Lambert is getting good results in latter.

Maybe I am getting this tactic to work for me, slowly.

Im not sure i follow you exactly, but if you mean that you tried to copy the tactic as described here exactly, then its likely it wont work. Not unless you have trained the same PPMs, applied the same transfers, and make the same in game tweaks as i did. Also remember i only "found" my tactic in season 2, by which point my season 1 performance impacts on how others face me, and so on and so on......the days of plug and play are gone The point of the thread was never to encourage others to copy (although idea sharing is absolutely good - i got a key part of my tactic from the discussion of some one elses success). The idea was to encourage thought about how you build a system, the things you consider and analyse, how you handle different scenarios and how you can succeed and fail (i have managed both!).

Glad to see that you did make some changes, but what is not clear to me is that you have thought about exactly why you were making them, or how they would make things better based on what you were observing. Otherwise, i am afraid its just a bit of blind luck or otherwise. Sometimes you will pick a role which does happen to work, but unless you understand why, then you will likely not find sustained success or satisfaction.

I might do a post tonight about form, and how form can come along with even the best of systems (NB - not that mine is the best by any means, its a more general point). How i try to handle it, get a discussion about the pro's and con's of different approaches to handling form slips and the morale and squad management issue which can underpin these.

Hopefully get time to write it up shortly

[Torskus77]

I actually love this thread, beautifully thought out. I've taken inspiration from it. I haven't copied it in any sense, just using the formation. Got promoted in my first season with Walsall, very little money, relegation fodder. Needed a solid tactic, play on the counter, have seen lots of people saying they can't make a counter tactic work. As with FM14 it totally relies on the opponent coming at you. 20 games in to the season in the championship and we're 2nd only conceded 17 goals and we lost 3 goals in one crazy game and 4 away at Leeds, so you can see how solid it's been. We have the lowest budget by miles and a very weak squad relative to the division .

I might do a bit of a write up in your thread if that's okay ?

[lewis999]

I actually love this thread, beautifully thought out. I've taken inspiration from it. I haven't copied it in any sense, just using the formation. Got promoted in my first season with Walsall, very little money, relegation fodder. Needed a solid tactic, play on the counter, have seen lots of people saying they can't make a counter tactic work. As with FM14 it totally relies on the opponent coming at you. 20 games in to the season in the championship and we're 2nd only conceded 17 goals and we lost 3 goals in one crazy game and 4 away at Leeds, so you can see how solid it's been. We have the lowest budget by miles and a very weak squad relative to the division .

I might do a bit of a write up in your thread if that's okay ?

I'd like to read that if the OP doesn't mind. Those are the tactics I love.

[Mark.]

Thanks for the detail Jambo, apologies I am on vacation so haven't had a good chance to digest and respond. Will do so in when I get a bit of PC time.

[Jambo98]

I actually love this thread, beautifully thought out. I've taken inspiration from it. I haven't copied it in any sense, just using the formation. Got promoted in my first season with Walsall, very little money, relegation fodder. Needed a solid tactic, play on the counter, have seen lots of people saying they can't make a counter tactic work. As with FM14 it totally relies on the opponent coming at you. 20 games in to the season in the championship and we're 2nd only conceded 17 goals and we lost 3 goals in one crazy game and 4 away at Leeds, so you can see how solid it's been. We have the lowest budget by miles and a very weak squad relative to the division .

I might do a bit of a write up in your thread if that's okay ?

Happy for you to post about it in here if its relevant to the concepts (not necessarily the exact tactic) that we have discussed in here. It sounds to me very much like the concept of the 451 being so versatile might come out in what you have come up with - A different type of tactic.

Be great if you do post, to document the detail on why you chose each aspect - each role/duty and each PI/TI/Mentality etc. I think the key part when looking at a tactic is considering that question from a hollistic point of view. Not much point picking a role just because you like it. For example, in season 1 i had a Treq up front. I could (and likely did) justify that by saying "i love the movement a Treq gives me up front" - Ok, thats great, but what does it mean for the rest of the system and how does it contribute to the sucess. If the answer is "I love the movement i get from a treq, as it drags defenders out wide, and i have 2 other players who can move into that space because they have X duty and Y instructions" - then that starts to show how a system can really work

Look forward to reading about how you have built it and how its sustainable

[Jambo98]

Ok, so another thing i thought worthy of talking about within the context of the concepts of tactical development and understanding.

The form slump - Tactics, morale or performances?

So almost every player is familiar with this. It happens to almost every team in Football Manager, and that's a good thing since its meant to be a simulation, and pretty much every team (bar perhaps 3 years of Bayern and 22 games of Real lately...) will go through spells in a season where their form drops. It can be anything from a minor blip to a season wrecker. There is much venting and knashing of teeth on these forums when it happens, most of which is pretty silly ("How is it realistic that i won 12 games then lost 3 out of 4" - it happens in real life, look it up!). There are also various theorys in why it happens, and how to break out of it. Again, as with everything i have written in this thread, this is not a new revolutionary thought or idea or the god particle. Its simply about how applying methodical analysis and considered thinking can help out in these situations.

So my form "slump" happened on the back of a crazy run of 33 games unbeating which included 27 wins out of those and i think 16 consecutive wins at one point. I say this to put in context my definition of "form slump" which is very different from team to team. I am sure some will look at this screenie and say "If only that were a form slump i would be delighted" - This is in the context of my save, where I have created a league challenging team.

It was a spell of 1 win in 5. Now granted only 1 loss as well, and the fixtures included Barca x 2 and Chelsea away, but in the context of how i had been performing, it was a slump or at least dip. It was a vital time of the season, with the league title now achievable and a cup semi upcoming.

Identifying the reasons for the slump

I deliberately used plural in the title, because in my experience there is rarely a singular cause for a form slump. I should at this stage talk briefly about how i define the form slump. For example, starting a new tactic, winning 4 of your first 6 then going on to win only one in 6 is probably less likely to be form, and more likely to be that your tactic was never right in the first place, you just had a lucky run. I would prefer to look at a far longer period. In this instance, we had a 32 game run before hand which gave me confidence that it was not core tactical. We are also in season 2 and have had enough sustained success that we have played plenty of games against "parked buses" so it wasnt a case of suddenly running into teams with a dramatically different way of playing against us which we couldnt handle. "parked bus" can be a component cause, but here i felt confident enough that it was not the sole, or main, root cause.

Step 1 - Is it tactical? - Although you can partly use the context of the slump for this (as i did above), really this question can only be answered by watching the games where you are slumping. Look at what is going wrong and what is not happening, which was when you were winning? Are your players suddenly not finding space where they did before? Are other teams exploiting one thing against you repeatedly (The AI learns your weaknesses better than ever this year). Are you seeing lots more long shots?

One of the keys is observing those questions over a period of 2/3 games - Any single game can go differently based on too many factors to make a snap judgement on your tactics.

What i observed in my game was that most of these things were not the issues. We had no more or less long shots than ever, other teams were not directly exploiting us and we were still getting into good areas. We also still had good solid support at the back. So my overall conclusion was that it was not tactical. I did observe that on reflection the Barca loss was partly tactical. I didnt adapt or react quickly to the team with probably the best 3 forwards in the world all starting up front against me. I should have balanced managing that with exploiting the weaknesses that gave them elsewhere but both me and my team were too complacent. That lesson taken on board, i still believed that the keys to my slump lay elsewhere.

Step 2 - Is it Morale / Player form? - This is an oft overlooked element of the game. Players have form, regardless of how good your tactics are how happy the player is, sometimes they go through spells of bad form. It happens to everyone in the world not named Ronaldo. There are some important things in how you deal with it - both with morale and squad management. In my game, part of what i obsevered in game were a few players making poor passes, bad decisions and wayward finishes. These are players who i know are better and have been better. The case study here is my favourite player of all in the LFC squad, Coutinho.

For context, in January i knocked back a couple of £40million plus offers form Juve for him. He started making noises about an improved contract, then made a demand for one after a superb performance towards the end of Feb. I refused (which was an error on my part - I could easily afford it, he was clearly a key performer. I was just being stubborn and trying to save cash unnecesarily). He didnt react well to the conversation and although his overall "morale" remained green, his profile revealed an ongoing "concern" over the contract situation. That is the cause, the effect, in terms of performance over this period, can be seen below:

The games highlighted in the black box are around our slump. You can see his performances were way below that quoted in some of my previous posts. I have touched on the fact before that my WM are key to this tactic, and him being so woefully out of form was clearly a big part of why my team was slumping. It was not the sole reason (more on that later) but it was an issue i had to address.

So how do i address it? I could talk to him, try and sort out his morale issue, but he isnt happy with me so a quick chat wont fix it. he is also not yet ready to take a new contract after the falling out so that is not an option. So this is where another important and linked part of management comes in - Squad management and depth

The best way for me to deal with Coutinho being out of form was to rest him for a few games. He hasnt been able to ride out the rough patch, and i cant afford an underperforming player in a key role. What is important, is that i have a capable replacement ready who is a similar player type, and crucially is in good morale. Having a back up who was already unhappy about lack of game time for example, would not likely solve this situation. Luckily for me, Suso had been rotated in and off the bench quite a bit over the season, with lots of fixtures after long cup runs helping give me this option. Suso has developed nicely and although he needs to learn some PPMs, his attribute balance is fine for the Coutinho role.

So i brought him in for a couple of games, and rested Coutinho completely. Below is the capture of how Suso did given his chance of a few consecutive games:

(Note - my black box drawing has obscured the fact that he scored in both the Palace and Spurs games)

So a nice success. However longer term, Coutinho is still a star man and although its harsh on Suso, after the slump lifted i was able to bring Coutinho back in and have him back at his best. Football is a tough game at times and hard choices have to be made to get it right.

So thats player performance and a link into overall squad management. What else might cause the slump?

Step 3 - Is it key injuries? - This is another aspect to think about. Again, every team has injuries. Hopefully you build up a squad to deal with this, but even then it cant always cover an absolute key injury, or a sequence of them. In my case, it was one key. Sturridge got injured before the Chelsea game. He was my talisman and a crucial part of the overall system for how he plays the F9. Pre-season, i had signed Mattia Destro as a second striker and in hindsight he wasnt quite the right signing. He is a great player, good all round spread of skills, but he isnt quite in the mould of Sturridge and has a couple of PPMs which mean he plays different. In spells, and off the bench, Destro has done a fine job for us. But for a run of games, as i watched things i could see the slightly different behaviour, not able to come deep, turn and run quite as well as Dan would.

So what can you do? You cant magically fix an injured player. Its outside the transfer window, i had to live with my choice with Destro in the squad. However i also had Origi in my squad, who had seen more sparse game time as i didnt feel he was quite ready for a regular start or even as a top rotation player. However, he does have blistering pace, agility, balance and good PPMs. He isnt quite sturridge, but he can give our team some of what we were missing.

So i picked him for a couple of games, and below is how he performed in kicking us out of the slump.

So there we are. A bit of detail on how i get of slumps, with the important parts for me being:

• Analyse and watch. Go back and re-watch if you have to - Do NOT try to guess or panic your way out of a slump
  
• Dont over react tactically - accept bad games occasionally
  
• Use squad rotation, but use it wisely. Dont just change 3 players randomly hoping that will change your fortunes - Look for players who are in a specific dip (look further than just ave rating) and consider the strength of the available replacement
  
• Squad strength and correct management of the squad lays across everything - including form slumps and how you get out of them.
  
• Dont rule out a tactical variety as a solution - Although it was not the right solution for me in this situation, other times it might be. Look at the cause, identify root cause and then consider each possible solution.
  

As always, welcome discussion and debate and ideas about this. I hope it all seems to link somehow to the overall concepts of creating a tactic and system and I have not gone too abstract for the thread!

[jonomagloneo]

I've also taken inspiration from this thread and have started a Brighton save. My setup is pretty similar - standard/flexible, with the shorter passing, pass into space and work ball into box TIs (plus one or two other go to TIs mostly dependent on my starting XI). Roles and reasons:

GK - SK(s) - I've specifically needed this because, even with a standard mentality and no pushing up, I'm still occasionally vulnerable to balls over the top.

DR - FB(s) - much like you, I've found that a more defensive FB is really important for defensive cover, and my midfield setup requires the extra cover on the right.

DC x 2 - CD(d) - again, not much to add.

DL - CWB(a) or perhaps WB(a) in more difficult games. I don't use the overlap TI because it already naturally happens this side of the pitch, and I don't want to encourage it so much on the other side.

MR - W(a) - I got Chris Eagles in on a free, and he has scored a lot of goals in addition to providing a number of assists. He often gets a criminal amount of space, as much of attacking play is focused on the left hand side and opp players get sucked in to that area. Have had some really pleasing goals come from a sudden ball sprayed out to him in acres of space for a chance of his own or a cross in to the box.

MCR - CM(a) - I love this role.

MC - CM(d) - I prefer having the defensive shield in the middle of the three, almost as much for attacking moves as defensive moves. Sometimes my attacks have the air of rugby attack, going from one side to other, with this role being the fly half. I don't want this player to do anything particularly tricky (my options here aren't good enough for this anyway) but the key thing is that he's in space a little deeper to continue switching the play from one side to the other.

MCL - DLP(s) - I've really liked, as mentioned above, how focusing play through the DLP here slightly to the left hand side of the pitch leaves space the other side of the pitch. In addition, he has the CWB and left mid on his side to support attacks over to the left.

ML - WM(a) - I have Jack Grealish on loan here, with the cuts inside PPM, which is a massive bonus. I have anyone else playing there assigned the cut inside PI to facilitate the CWB overlaps.

ST - DF(s) or F9(s) - this depends on the player I start with. Both do similar things though in coaxing the defence out, but the false 9 (and the player filling that role) is of course more creatively effective and often has great key pass stats, putting one of the many runners forward in for a CCC. I like my DF's work rate and strength though and it's great for putting the defence under more pressure (my F9 is frankly too lazy to do this).

Most important for me has been the pass into space TI, which works brilliantly with runners from midfield. This setup is producing great possession stats, brilliant football aligned with solidity, and thus great results. I also like switching to counter - it seems to work just as well and it's frankly hilarious sometimes how I seem to be able to exploit space on the counter, again particularly through my right winger.

So a big thumbs up and thanks, Jambo, top notch stuff!

[afleiding]

Hey Jambo, thanks for an incredible thread.

I have one short question: What PPM:s have you trained Markovic and Sterling in? Because I can't seem to get my central winger to play like yours.

They are stuck to far down the pitch and don't make the runs past the False 9.

Edit: And how does the tactic look now? With Roles, TI:s and PI:s?

[Jambo98]

Hey Jambo, thanks for an incredible thread.

I have one short question: What PPM:s have you trained Markovic and Sterling in? Because I can't seem to get my central winger to play like yours.

They are stuck to far down the pitch and don't make the runs past the False 9.

Edit: And how does the tactic look now? With Roles, TI:s and PI:s?

Thanks afleiding

To answer your central winger question:

The role has PI's - "Shoot less often", "Dribble More", "Roam from position" and "run wide with ball"

Sterling has PPMs - "Knocks ball past opponent", "Avoids using weaker foot", "cuts inside" and "Runs with ball often"

Markovic has PPMs- "Runs with the ball down the right", "Runs with the ball through the centre", "avoids using weaker foot" and "Cuts inside"

When you say you cant get yours to play like mine, what sort of system are you playing? The Central winger is one part of a bigger system, and the behaviour of those around him is key to it working, as are his PPMs and PI's. Not only that, but the PPM's of the F9 could impact him. Be interesting to know what set up you are trying to use to make it work. It is not an easy role to get working, and also you have to be reasonable in your expectations - He isnt going to play as you want every minute of every game.

In terms of the overall tactic, the positions, roles and duties are as in post #24. As you can see if you follow down the thread, a couple of changes were made to the mentality and then 2 TI removed which were noted in the posts which follow. I might post up the full tactical detail shortly in another post, but the point i guess is more to encourage discussion about how you develop a system, as well as at the same time considering some specific tactic concepts that people perhaps might have overlooked - rather than asking people to copy what i did and hope they succeed (since they wont - If i apply this exact tactic to another save, i dont believe it will work)

[felley]

Jambo, that post on form is a fantastic piece of work. Easily good enough to be in one of the articles/guides knocking around.

You're spot on about having able replacements for slumps in form. That has always been something I aim for in squads that I build, it's simply unrealistic to expect that your players will be fit and on top form forever.

I'm sure I have discovered that my reserves are more suited to my tactic in the past... I had a save as United once where I tried to get all manner of things working with the forwards before finally chucking Macheda in due to an injury/poor form of the others and he quickly cemented his place as a starter!

Keep up the good work.

[Jambo98]

So, i reached the end of the season which has formed the basis of most of this thread (this is season 2 in game, season 1 did make up the first 24 posts or so of the thread).

I thought it was worth doing a write up and summary. Showing some of the fruits of the labour as it were. It feels a bit self indulgent (i use that phrase waaay to much) but really i want to reflect that it really is worth all the effort and time it can take to properly build something. It has taken me id guess over a week to run though one season, and thats with a reasonably amount of "free time" to be playing.

So how did we do?

So the run down:

• League champions by 6pts (overcoming about a 10pt deficit after our documented early season tactical issue)
  
• Best goals scored record in the division
  
• Best defensive record in the division
  
• League cup winners (beat Utd on pens in the final)
  
• FA cup winners (beat Spurs in the final)
  
• Lost in CL Q-final to Barcelona 4 v 1 on aggregate (ouch - room for improvement)
  

How did we do it - Player performance and accolades

Squad showing goals and assists, sorted by goals

So again, bullet summary

• Sturridge the absolute key man for goals - Maybe not what some would expect from an F9
  
• Sterling also chipping in with a great return for goals and assist, with his combined return with Markovic (who alternates with him in the position) being very impressive for a player notionally in centre midfield
  
• The wide men are the creative force as well as real goal scorers. In some ways the balance of goal/assist for each reflects the PPMs (Gets into opposition area v Tries Killer balls often)
  
• Its a squad game - Destro, Suso, Markovic, and Origi are not first choice, but look at how many goals and assits they contributed. Without those, the season would not have been as successful
  

Team of the year

So 8 starters and 2 subs in the team of the year. The only one of my first choice 11 not to make the squad was Lucas Romero, who is my defensive DLP and is by definition unspectacular

Other accolades:

• I won "manager of the year"
  
• Sturridge won PL "top scorer award"
  
• Lallana won "footballer of the year"
  
• Sturridge won "players player of the year"
  
• Coutinho won "players young player of the year"
  

And a few screenies of the season stats which are relevant i think:

From those, we can deduce that we are a massively hard working team, and that we really did perform great all over the park. Add to that, that Sturridge is the most effective striker in the league by some distance when measured by goals per 90mins.

The last screenshot is one i am quite proud of. It shows the net spend of each team in the league

We won everything in England, and we were the lowest spenders in the top league by net spend. Not near the bottom. 20th place. So you dont need to go crazy to win. You just need to be smart in identifying your players and how they fit your system.

So there we are. The summary of a season of looking at a tactic closely, watching games, learning, observing, making mistakes, putting them right, and getting the reward.

But this is football. No resting on laurels. If i dont improve for next season i will go backwards, and i still have to strive for the CL win of course

Hope it all helps a few people

[DirtyJoe]

Hi Jambo, nice thread and a really interesting discussion around a great tactic.

I started with a similar approach to your tactic, with the exception of using a 4141 with WMA on both sides. I have since changed to your flat 5 man midfield and it is working a treat. A couple of observations, I have found the WMa work really well with WBs as they tend to tuck in a run at the opposing defence, allowing the Wing backs to over lap.

[howard moon]

Great thread. Probably the best thought out and clear explanation as to how to set up a coherent tactic based on an actual footballing philosophy I've read since SFraser's 'Meet the System'.

This is not a system I ever expect to play, but the way you've laid out the decisions you made, and how you dealt with issues that arose was first rate, and I've learned a lot.

[llama3]

A genuinely excellent thread. As proven by your overall net spend, you made what you already have work extremely well. So, once again - congratulations. Fantastic performance.

[peleJunior]

Superb Jambo, almost the quadruple! It was great watching this evolve from the early discussions about the template nature of the flat midfield 3 that then became a well thought out distribution of roles and duties, the way this tactic holds the centre with the DLPx2 and F9 but keeps central penetration with the CMa but also goes aggressive on the wings means the all areas of the pitch has goals in it.

KUTGW

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

so whats the final tactic can u post what it is jumbo

[Puni]

It's not about the tactic, but about the logic behind it and how to improve it along the way. Stop looking for a plug and play tactic as those don't exist anymore.

[spaced33]

This is an awesome thread. I had been struggling to get a 4-3-3(DM Wide) to work and abandoned it after reading this. I've never liked the 4-2-3-1 as I could never get a solid defence in place. Used your 4-5-1 as a base to work from and after quite a bit of tweaking the pi's its working beautifully (for the first time I'm actually picking up problems and fixing them in game.). This is the first tight defensive tactic that I've had. I've always been of the mind that in order to play attacking football you need to play with an attacking or control mentality (despite Cleon's defensive arts thread). This has really opened my eyes - we're playing attractive attacking defensively solid football. My only focus at the moment is to get my possession stats up and my shots on target up (Fans don't think the football is very exciting) - i'm a bit torn on the pass into space as these passes are where we're losing a lot of possession but also completely open up the opposition defines at times. No matter what I seem to do my goalkeeper refuses to pass it short (another place we're giving possession away). Thanks for a great thread, it has really inspired me to be more analytical with my tactic.

[therealtuncaysanli]

I just created a 4231 and finding it hard to actually lose a game. So I'd say that's still king since 1970 =)

[Jambo98]

Hi Jambo, nice thread and a really interesting discussion around a great tactic.

I started with a similar approach to your tactic, with the exception of using a 4141 with WMA on both sides. I have since changed to your flat 5 man midfield and it is working a treat. A couple of observations, I have found the WMa work really well with WBs as they tend to tuck in a run at the opposing defence, allowing the Wing backs to over lap.

Thanks Joe - I agree the way the WMA get inside, and indeed even into the box, is one of the keys to this tactic. When combined with wingbacks going outside for support, its a very difficult combo to defend against. The lack of a player in the central AM strata also allows the space for the WMA to get into. Glad the same concept is working wel for you

Great thread. Probably the best thought out and clear explanation as to how to set up a coherent tactic based on an actual footballing philosophy I've read since SFraser's 'Meet the System'.

This is not a system I ever expect to play, but the way you've laid out the decisions you made, and how you dealt with issues that arose was first rate, and I've learned a lot.

Thanks howard, and i think its worth highlighting that last bit - Its not about the specific TI or role or duty that any individual chooses, its the process you go through to make those choices and decisions which is what i wanted to get across

A genuinely excellent thread. As proven by your overall net spend, you made what you already have work extremely well. So, once again - congratulations. Fantastic performance.

Cheers llama, the net spend was something i only realised at the end of the season. Its probably in contrast to how i might have played in the past - i used to spend every penny, sign as many as possible. Players like Henderson, Flanagan, Suso would likely have been shipped out with how i used to play. But as well as building a tactical system, having the realisation that you have the right player types at your fingertips already is important

Superb Jambo, almost the quadruple! It was great watching this evolve from the early discussions about the template nature of the flat midfield 3 that then became a well thought out distribution of roles and duties, the way this tactic holds the centre with the DLPx2 and F9 but keeps central penetration with the CMa but also goes aggressive on the wings means the all areas of the pitch has goals in it.

KUTGW

Yup pele, the balance is what its all about. The 2 x DLP give that real shape to it. I read someone who was trying with central CM as the "holder" and to me that would, in the past, have seemed logical. But sometimes you need to look at your own logic. Not to say that cant work at all, but having the 2 players holding gives the shape, and the formation means they are a touch closer to the flanks to protect them.

It's not about the tactic, but about the logic behind it and how to improve it along the way. Stop looking for a plug and play tactic as those don't exist anymore.

Thank you - Spot on. The tactic wont be posted. If others really want to recreate it exactly, the info is all in the thread but dont come crying here when it doesnt work. The message couldnt be clearer - You need a well thought out system which suits your own managerial style, your club, your players and your expectation.

This is an awesome thread. I had been struggling to get a 4-3-3(DM Wide) to work and abandoned it after reading this. I've never liked the 4-2-3-1 as I could never get a solid defence in place. Used your 4-5-1 as a base to work from and after quite a bit of tweaking the pi's its working beautifully (for the first time I'm actually picking up problems and fixing them in game.). This is the first tight defensive tactic that I've had. I've always been of the mind that in order to play attacking football you need to play with an attacking or control mentality (despite Cleon's defensive arts thread). This has really opened my eyes - we're playing attractive attacking defensively solid football. My only focus at the moment is to get my possession stats up and my shots on target up (Fans don't think the football is very exciting) - i'm a bit torn on the pass into space as these passes are where we're losing a lot of possession but also completely open up the opposition defines at times. No matter what I seem to do my goalkeeper refuses to pass it short (another place we're giving possession away). Thanks for a great thread, it has really inspired me to be more analytical with my tactic.

Yup its interesting that the first perception of this shape is "its defensive". Well, it has 5 x Attack duty (and that doesnt even include the striker!) and only 3 defend and 2 support (one of whom is a striker) duties. When you think of it like that, its just not really defensive is it. There are any number of screenshots in this thread which show 5 men in the box when attacking Glad you have been able to spot some of these things and sounds like you have managed the right blend of attacking / Defending set up.

I have to be honest and say at times, i am not sure the possession counter works correctly in game. I see games where i totally dominate, having watched the games on extended, and the counter says 53%. I wonder if it relates to how "dead time" is categorised? There are a couple of aspects of the ingame stats which still have some room for improvement for FM16 or future patches. On the keeper thing, do you have him set as a sweeper keeper by chance? I found that this causes them to ignore distribution instructions because they want to launch a counter. Its the sole reason i have changed my sweeper keeper to a normal one.

I just created a 4231 and finding it hard to actually lose a game. So I'd say that's still king since 1970 =)

I am happy for you.......both for that and for winning the award of least relevant post in a thread of the week.....

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

It's not about the tactic, but about the logic behind it and how to improve it along the way. Stop looking for a plug and play tactic as those don't exist anymore.

i want ot know tactic and formation

[Jambo98]

i want ot know tactic and formation

Then go somewhere else. This thread is not for you i am afraid.

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

whatever man got no time for this rubbish

[Cleon]

whatever man got no time for this rubbish

Don't be distressful or you'll be given a warning. If you want a download go to the download part at the top of the forum. This is the discussion section and if you can't handle that then you are in the wrong place.

[DirtyJoe]

Thanks Joe - I agree the way the WMA get inside, and indeed even into the box, is one of the keys to this tactic. When combined with wingbacks going outside for support, its a very difficult combo to defend against. The lack of a player in the central AM strata also allows the space for the WMA to get into. Glad the same concept is working wel for you

I forgot to mention I play my right sided CM as a CM/d and left DPL/s. I do not tinker to much else, apart from adjusting mentality to suit the match and what the opposition is doing.

As you are doing, now looking for players with a high workmate and teamwork attributes.

[Jambo98]

Ok, so i thought i would do a little bit of further development on this.

Throughout the thread, i have preached about how you need to build a tactic and system to suit your own squad/level/league etc. There is no such thing as plug and play any more etc etc. However if you understand the decision making process, you can adapt different tactics to best suit your situation.

I decided to do a little play around with this to see if i could be true to my word. I started a new save, this time playing as Hearts in the Scottish Championship (as my username gives away, Liverpool are my second passion. HMFC will always be number 1 ).

The Hearts experiment - Learning and adapting

So i picked hearts not only because they are my team, and i havent had a save on 15 with them yet. They actually have a squad which is reasonably suited to this tactic, but not totally. They have a good selection of DLP, solid enough centre backs and at least one pretty good wingback. They dont, however, have much in the way of obvious WM or a central winger. They also dont have players with any notable PPMs which are absolutely key to the tactic success with Liverpool.

As before, i de-activated first transfer window budgets, so i was working with the starting squad. Hearts of course, have by far one of the strongest squads in the division so i should do well. I wanted to try and implement the tactic "as is" - straight lift and shift from the Liverpool save. I had to adapt the squad, in particular moving a central play maker type out to one flank to give more of a wide midfielder/coutinho type rather than a winger type. I then moved a winger into the center, where he was not familiar with the position but had some of the attributes needed for a central winger.

The Results

I also wanted to give the tactic 3 months to settle in. Below are the results from the first 3 months:

So overall, pretty good. We were actually top of the league at this point, but we had a couple of unacceptable defeats, including the most recent fixture on that screenshot which is entirely unacceptable to any Hearts Manager.

So it was time for some adapting of the tactic. It was clear that, as i expected, i couldnt just plug this in. So what was going wrong?

The analysis

I had noted in game, and in particular from looking at basic match stats, that we seemed to have too many long shots. I had a rough idea why, but i looked at one game, here is the shot analysis and average position map (this is fairly typical of the games thus far)

Also the dribble map for the Central Winger

I watched back clips of all the shots. Some common themes emerged:

• The F9 is not as adept at taking in the ball and turning and dribbling - this was a big key at Liverpool. That act was what helped give time for the midfield to get up in support and into positions to receive a pass.
  
• The 2 wide men do not get as far forward as quickly at this level, and in the absence of the correct PPM's. Again this means less passing options for the F9, or even the advancing CM(a) which leads to more long shots
  
• Linked to the above, the wide men are not getting into the box as much, which is in large down to the PPMs and slightly lower attributes at this level
  
• The CM(a) has not been very effective at regularly dribbling past the striker - This is part PPM, part perhaps positional familiarity and part lack of ability compared to lets say Raheem Sterling
  
• The CWB's do not have the crossing ability or passing ability that the likes of Alberto Moreno has. This leads to wasted balls in the last 3rd. Somewhat impacted by my best CWB being injured for the first 2 months or so and having to play a more defensive type in his place.
  

So then, some things to work on. As i expected, the tactic is not as well suited to Hearts as it was to my specific Liverpool team. It is, however, clearly still a solid base to start from. So time for some changes:

Adapting the tactic - Slowly but surely

So i have picked up on 5 initial bullets that need to be addressed. We could probably say 4 areas, since bullets 2 and 3 are somewhat related (they are all related really.....since its one system, but you get the idea!). One of the keys to successfully tweaking a tactic, in my opinion, is to not try to do too much at once. Be methodical. Identify the key issues and try to address them before moving onto to further tweaks. In this case i decided to tackle the first 2 issues. Here is how i approached them:

The F9 problem - The issue here was the F9 not being able to retain possession long enough for support to arrive. This issue is half caused by the striker performance, and half by the fact that the support was slow to arrive, but either way I deduced that a tweak was needed to both aspects. With the striker, I had some options (these are always the main options i guess?)

1 - Change the role/duty - This is certainly an option worth considering, and usually one of the first things people might do. I did consider it. I looked at the alternatives. Any attack duty would only make the isolation worse, so scratch those. A TM would alter how the rest of the team play, and i dont want that. Also i dont have suitable players. A CF(s) would likely only increase his long shots and also requires a better player in my view. DLF(s) is something i did consider, but i had to be honest here and say i wasnt sure enough of the actual "under the hood" difference between F9 and DLF(s). Its pretty hard to be sure given the lack of in game visibility of what actually changes. I dont like uncertainty so i ruled it out. With that, i had exhausted this option.

2 - Buy / Select a better or more suited player - Would be lovely, but transfer window is closed and we have no funds and little wage budget. Our in house other options were not noticeably better or different, and though injury all 3 of my strikers had already had a decent look. I might very well revisit this option in January if funds allow and someone is available

3 - Use a PPM to adapt the role - There is some merit to this as a longer term plan, but it takes usually 2 -3 months at best to learn so wont give me the short term boost. Also for this particular role, the players i have are not likely to pick up, or effectively use, the PPMs required. I would use this solution for other areas of the pitch, but for this problem, not this time

4 - Use some PI to adapt - This was the solution i chose. Its hardly rocket science, and im sure most people would have chosen this option, but i think its worth setting out my thought process anyway. I added the PI's "Shoot less often" and, importantly, "hold up ball" to the F9's role. The later is the key one, and i felt Osman Sow had enough about him to use it effectively. So that was tweak 1 in the books

The wide men problem(s) - This one was a little bit more tricky. These rules are very key, and very tricky to get working. PPM are probably essential, particularly without a world class type player. The roles already have all the PI i could use, so that wasnt a solution. The "buy player" option has the same issue as above, which rules it out. This time i opted for different solutions on each side of the pitch.

For the right hand side, i decided to leave the role and duty as is, but to immediately get my guy learning the PPM "plays one-twos". Now that might not seem like the most obvious one, and i did debate looking at "gets forward", but actually the one-twos are a big part of this role. Often they feed the striker and this PPM should encourage him to continue his run. I was also happier with how this guy was playing. He is my adapted playmaker type (Jason Holt) who is reasonably 2 footed and somewhat of a very poor mans Coutinho. Part of the reason for also using this solution, and not changing role or duty, was that my CWB on this side is pretty good attacking wise (Callum Paterson)

For the left side, i needed to be more radical. I really need another body in the box and this was the guy i wanted it to be. I opted to change role and duty, but also formation. I moved this guy forward to the AM strata, and set him as a IF(a). Its a bit of a risk to move his defensive position, but i am a top side and being exposed down the flank doesnt worry me at this level. The trade off was the more immediate support available for my striker, and a bigger threat in the box. To somewhat offset the defensive side, i also changed the CWB on this side to a WB(a). A very slight tweak, but the guy(s) on this side are less attacking in their ability anyway, so it should compliment the first change.

The other 2 problems - As i mentioned above, i want to tackle this in phases. The CM(a) issue i am leaving alone, partly as the player in here who regularly starts was already learning "gets forward" PPM from the start of the season. I could opt to change things and go for a creator type here rather than a runner, but not ready to do that yet.

The crossing problem i have left alone. Playing with TI's is probably the solution, but lets get the key things fixed first then worry about this.

So how did it work?

Its a reasonably small sample, but 6 games since the changes:

6 wins, 5 clean sheets and including a couple of tricky games (Rangers and Falkirk).

I will add in some analysis of how and why it worked in the morning

[Sammie B]

Do you not find with the Close down more TI that this ruins your defensive shape? I've individually assigned closing down instructions but not overly happy with it and going to experiment with the TI instead

[Double0Seven]

Learning so much from tactical geniuses like you. Thank you for this awesome thread. Does the F9 striker take less long shots now? Have you considered looking at his vision stat? Maybe he just didn't see passing options fast enough and decided to shoot.

[Jambo98]

Do you not find with the Close down more TI that this ruins your defensive shape? I've individually assigned closing down instructions but not overly happy with it and going to experiment with the TI instead

Hey Sammie. Closing down was part of my overall game plan. It is inherent that if you choose a closing down style, you will sacrifice some element of defensive stability. That is the trade off you make when you choose your defensive style. In my setup, i mitigated this somewhat by having 2 roles in central midfield which have less closing down as part of the role (the 2 x DLP) which allows me to keep some kind of structure and stability in the middle, but also still close down the opposition quite high.

As you say, its important to find what suits your own team. Setting it at player level requires a much higher level of understanding of the impact each player has on the overall system, hence it can be "safer" to stick to TI level. Thats not to say its wrong to do it at player level if you fully understand your system

Learning so much from tactical geniuses like you. Thank you for this awesome thread. Does the F9 striker take less long shots now? Have you considered looking at his vision stat? Maybe he just didn't see passing options fast enough and decided to shoot.

Thank you - Im certainly not a genius though! Just a guy who decided to sit down and work though things logically, taking on board feedback and learnings.

Apologies, i did end my previous post by saying i would post up some more detail on the results of the tweaks and i have not managed yet. But yes, i did reduce the long shots by quite a chunk by the tweaks mentioned. There are still slightly too many, but that does come down to player ability. I had not specifically looked at the "vision" attribute until you suggested it (i was just puting it down to generally not very good players), but interestingly my main 3 strikers (who have rotated) have 8,11,8 for vision. So yes, that certainly will have an effect. Thanks for the suggestion

I will still try to post up some examples of how the tweaks were effective and why - that is important. I also just managed to get the "parked the tank" achievement on steam (10 consecutive clean sheets) which is a great sign - my tweak which might have weakened us defensively actually didnt. I never thought that achievement would be possible if i am honest!

Glad some of it is useful to you

[llama3]

Learning so much from tactical geniuses like you.

Thank you - Im certainly not a genius though! Just a guy who decided to sit down and work though things logically, taking on board feedback and learnings.

That in essence is what every guy here is - Cleon, wwfan, RTHerringbone, Dr Hook & The Hand of God - we all sit down and work things out. We ask when we don't know still too. I recently have PM exchanges with RTH, Dr Hook & THoG when I was finding my results were poor - we all lose form, we all pick it up - its just a case of working it out. Jambo98 is a superb example of working at something until it clicked.

[Double0Seven]

But wait if you call Cleon a guy why does his profile say: "Why do people think I'm a dude ffs!!!!!".

You guys just know so much things and Im just amazed every time I see such a thread. Simple things I have learnt here is that a higher mentality increases closing down, width, tempo, d line etc. The in game description doesn't tell me this but you guys seem to spot all of this. Its amazing.

[Jambo98]

But wait if you call Cleon a guy why does his profile say: "Why do people think I'm a dude ffs!!!!!".

You guys just know so much things and Im just amazed every time I see such a thread. Simple things I have learnt here is that a higher mentality increases closing down, width, tempo, d line etc. The in game description doesn't tell me this but you guys seem to spot all of this. Its amazing.

I have to be fair here and say that i absolutely didn't find out the impact of higher mentality by "spotting it" during the games. I found that out by reading many of the threads on here. It is a massive bugbear of mine that we ask users to figure that out rather than somehow making it more clear in game with descriptions. I think it is an area that SI acknowledge needs some work and hopefully some better guidance will come in future versions ,either with ingame descriptors or at least in the help/user manual. For now, i can only encourage reading lots of the stickies and other threads in here There are still little bits i learn doing that now, which i wouldnt have known otherwise. In the last week i have picked up that "defensive" mentality and "counter" mentality are both equally likely to encourage your players to start a counter attack. I dont profess to agreeing with that or even understanding the logic, but by reading some of the expert advice i now know that and can use that knowledge should i want to make a tactic based on those concepts

Right, this time, i absolutely promise, i will post the second part of my "tweaking the hearts tactic" showing how the changes had an impact. I have time today and i shall do that!

[Sammie B]

Hey Sammie. Closing down was part of my overall game plan. It is inherent that if you choose a closing down style, you will sacrifice some element of defensive stability. That is the trade off you make when you choose your defensive style. In my setup, i mitigated this somewhat by having 2 roles in central midfield which have less closing down as part of the role (the 2 x DLP) which allows me to keep some kind of structure and stability in the middle, but also still close down the opposition quite high.

As you say, its important to find what suits your own team. Setting it at player level requires a much higher level of understanding of the impact each player has on the overall system, hence it can be "safer" to stick to TI level. Thats not to say its wrong to do it at player level if you fully understand your system

Thanks Jambo, I've currently got my lone striker, wide men and attacking midfielder set to close down more. Reason behind this being was to keep the 2 holding midfielders and the back 4 in position. However this has happened to a degree but it's very unbalanced and as we all know pressing needs to be done as team - I've conceded an annoying amount of the goals from crosses so hopefully with the full backs/whole team pressing more they can stop the supply.

Ps I am Rangers and my best performances (Offensively and Defensively) have unfortunately been against Hearts, a 5-1 and a 3-0. They do like to switch to a 4-2-4 rather quickly which is just an invitation for goals!

This is a great thread tho and has helped me look at/analyse games and decisions made in them.

[Jambo98]

Ok, so finally, the bit on how my tweaks in post #78 improved my tactic for Hearts.

To recap, i tweak things by adding 2 PI to the F9 role, and by changing the role and duty (and formation spot) of the LM to IF(a) in the AML slot. I also changed the LB to a WB(a). This was to counter the issue of too many long shots and not enough support in the box/forward passing options for the F9 (all of which are linked issues).

Post the change, i noticed an immediate benefit. I would never manage to, and never want to, completely get rid of all long shots. They have a place. In my Liverpool save, i was probably averaging around 20 - 25 shots in most games, and 15 - 20% on average were long (so 4 or 5 most games). I was very happy with that at Liverpool. With Hearts, i did accept that the lack of having the perfect players and/or PPM would mean i would still have slightly more long shots, and i was willing to accept around 25% - 30% on average for this team (bearing in mind that my total shot count is generally high. If i was averaging 10 - 12 shots per game i wouldnt accept such a high long shot %)

Below is one screenshot of the shots from a match shortly after the tweaks. Aside from the 2 absolutely woeful corner flag efforts from my RM, i am reasonably happy with this spread. The "official" shot count from this match was 19 shots on goal, 5 of which were long shots. Thats a tad above what i would like, but it was one match only and was far improved from the near 50% i was experiencing early season.

Next up some actual examples of the additional man in the box and the better hold up play from the F9:

In this screenshot, my CM(a) (Nicholson) has picked up the ball reasonably deep and started to run. The player top left is my new IF - Look at his position, he is already close to being in the box. For comparison, my RM is the guy just to the right of the man in possesion.

As the play runs on a few seconds, the ball is played into my IF (El Hassnaoui) who is the most advanced player and he finishes for a nice goal

another screenie here of the new shape. I love the overall shape in this moment. My 2 DM are dropping deep, my 2 wingbacks have started to go forward. The CM(a) is about to recieve the ball, facing towards goal. The F9 is immediately dropping in to offer a short option, and both my wide men are advancing quickly. One outside, one inside. This is the essence of shape. Anyone who thinks that formation and shape are the same thing need only look at this one screenshot. The relevance here, is the incutting IF who is ready to be a goal threat.

Run it on a few seconds, the ball made its way wide and there is El Hassnaoi in the middle of the box to finish. The assist/cross comes from my left back, showing that his move from CWB to WB has not blunted his effectiveness

Final one. Its not too clear just from a still here, but Keatings is my F9 and he has just taken the ball in and held it a few seconds, this means that he has El Hassnoaui going beyond again and looking like a great through ball option (which in the end he takes and we score), and also you can see the CM(a) sprinting into the gap vacated by the F9. What i like here, is the massive hole in the hibs defence (an oft used phrase ) created by the F9 dropping off. If my CM(a) had better PPMs already, he would be in that space and we would have a nice easy chance.

So there are some examples of it in action. Hopefully it completes the picture of what made me identify the need for a tweak, why i chose the tweak option i did, and how it then works out in action.

Last word about the tweak - I risked giving up some defensive stability with the formation change of course. I mitigated it a bit by changing the role of the fullback on that side, and by having my defensive DLP on the same side as the new attacking slot. Not only did it work in an attacking sense, but defensively i just set a record i have never ever had on FM. I got the "parked tank" achievement, given for 10 consecutive games without conceding (i actually went 11).

To be fair, i do have the best team in the division, but i still did not think that steam achievement was ever possible. It takes a fair amount of luck, and i admit after about game 7 i started eyeing the record and playing towards it. If i was 2 nil up after 70mins i was far more likely to shut up shop than i would normal do with this tactic. But it worked.

Not all tweaks work out this well, and not everything happens nicely like this. I am about to go up a division, which will see me face tougher opponents, so i am sure some things will need further attention there.

[cellist]

Jambo - haven't been on the forums much recently but having been bought fm15 for christmas have tentatively made my way back! threads like these definitely help me catch the bug again! very much enjoyed reading and pleased to see patient observation paying off for you. Full marks for taking it to scottish championship and making it work there as well.

questions regarding full backs - have you seen improvement numbers wise from fullbacks/crosses now there's an extra man in the box to aim for (IF on the left?) do they chip in with many goals or are they mainly there to stretch play and create room for WMs?

[Jambo98]

thanks celist, glad you enjoyed and managed to take soemthing from it.

In terms of the fullbacks, they tend not to chip in with many goals at all. They are deliberately instructed to stay wider to stretch the play and provide the width into the spaces created by the wide men cutting inside. They do get a nice number of assists (about 12 in total from the positions in the Hearts season, and thats with players not ideally suited). Very few of our goals tend to come from crosses, but the extra man in the box does give them an extra passing options. One of the set of screenies above showing the goals shows an example where the left full back finds an easy clipped ball into the IF to score.

The main function of the full backs is about space creating and backing up the play. They pick up a lot of second balls and are far enough up the pitch to be a passing option for my other players when we get into the opposition box.

The season ended with us as champions by a comfortable 17pts. We also had by far and away the best defensive record in the division (19 goals conceded). Somewhat amazingly, only one other team concede less than 50 (!!) and that was second bottom raith! We also scored the most, albeit by less of a margin.

This was with the original Hearts squad. No loans. I signed 2 youngsters mid season for the U21s (one only because he is the brother of Alan Halalovic!) but no first team signings. Overall i think i exceeded my own expectations, but it was never going to be too hard to win this league

I also won the Scottish Cup, beating St Johnstone in the final in what was so nearly the perfect final for me. The screenie below wont mean much to non Hearts fans, but had it not been for an 87min St Johnstone goal, i would have savoured this result for ever :D

So we will be in Europe next year too. I am interested to see how this tactic and system react in the higher division, where will not always be favourite. I need to bring in some players to better suit it, and decide whether the tweaked version with the IF, or the original successful Liverpool setup is to my primary tactic.

[Jambo98]

Ok, so next i thought i would write a bit about squad management, transfers and how they are linked to your tactical system. There is little point buying any player if his style, his attributes and his PPMs wont fit into your system. It can destroy a good tactic.

Preparing for season 2 - Managing the squad and transfers

So as i just said. Signing the wrong player type is a trap thats easy to fall into. A flashy name becomes available to you, or a player with some eye catching high attributes is offered. Or a big name is out of contract. All tempting. But if they do not fit your system, they will be a complete waste. Look at the much talked about Balotelli to liverpool move. Not only the off the field stuff made it the wrong move, but his style of play was never going to fit with the system Liverpool had such success with. They relied on high intensity, high pressing, lots of running the channels, harrassing defenders. That is not the game Balotelli has ever played. He can be an asset to a team (if his head is right), but not one which plays that system.

Sometimes, in FM terms, its actually about not making signings. Knowing when to make the best of what you have. Controlling your transfer business and limiting it to one or two key signings. I had that luxury in the Liverpool season. One key world class upgrade (Thiago) and a couple of squad players (Destro / back up LB). This time, however, i am a newly promoted squad about to take on far better teams, and with lofty ambitions (the board want a title challenge right away!!). This means i really do need to upgrade a number of areas. I also need to try and find the type of player who can fit my system. Each role has fairly specific requirements to it and that always needs to be a decisive factor when making my signing decisions.

Step 1 - Assessing the squad

First up, what i do is go through my team position by position and identify my needs:

GK - In need of an upgrade. my first choice is Neil Alexander who is 37 and although he maybe has another year in him, he is probably not cut out for the top of the SPL. My young back up, Jack Hamilton is not yet ready and may never be good enough. I dont have a specific type of keeper required for my tactic, just as good an all-round keeper as i can get.

Fullbacks - I am happy with my 2 first choice. Paterson and McHattie both suit the tactic as they are good going forward without being terrible defensively. Also both scottish and homegrown at the club. My back up LB is almost equally capable which is good, but i dont have a back up RB. I will likely use a youth as Paterson is consistent and not injury prone. I might put a back up RB near the bottom of my list of priorities though. If i do sign one, must be capable going forward

Centrebacks - I lost my first choice to freedom of contract (Danny Wilson), but my young back up is ready to step in and has great potential (Jordan McGhee). My other CB looks good enough for the SPL, but early in the transfer window i got a big offer for him, which was too big to refuse for a player who 2 different Ass Mans thought wouldnt ever improve. So now on my list is a first team CB. I dont have a specific type again, but with a slightly higher line i will look for Positioning, Decisions and Anticipation. Speed is a bonus

DLP - My 2 first choice are probably ok for the SPL, but one of my backups was allowed to leave. I have 2 options here. Find a young or experience player only good enough for back up, or else try to find a real upgrade here and shuffle the others down the depth chart. I will lean towards trying to find an upgrade as its important, if unspectacular, role in my team. I need defensive type attributes and good mental traits.

Central Winger - I had 2 converted wingers rotating here, and both did good but not great. This is a very key role in my team and requires someone who can dribble, has flair and is fast. This goes near the top of my list

Flanks - With my aysmetric set up, each side has different needs. On the right, my converted AMC was player of the season and is more than good enough for the step up. He might need a back up, as i used a couple of youths to cover him who were not really up to it, and we will have a heavier fixture schedule if we progress in the league cup and in Europe. I will look for a similar type player to Holt to back him up, but might need to compromise a bit given i cant guarantee first team football. On the left, my starting IF was very hot and cold, but probably deserves another chance. One of my converted wingers will shift out to cover, when i get a new central winger.

False 9 - This is another of the absolute keys and none of my current lot fit the bill. Osman Sow and Dale Carrick were both shipped out and i want to find someone who can dribble, has some speed, some vision and passing skills and can also finish. Clearly i will need to compromise to an extent on some of that, since i dont believe Suarez will be tempted by the prospect of Tynecastle......

Part 2 - Setting your priorities

So having gone through the squad and assessed my needs, i now need to set my priority. I have to be a bit realistic. I am not operating on the budget of PSG, i am in a low rep league and I am newly promoted. I might not get all the toys i want for xmas....

So the list

1) A new striker - This is key to the tactic. We need goals and he can create and score. My existing ones are just not good enough to challenge for the top 3 of the SPL and i already sold 2 so it is a must. I probably really need 2 strikers for the squad. It as "Must have"

2) A new CB - This is necessary after the sale of my second starter. I couldnt resist nearly £1million for a player who was relatively ordinary, but i have no one ready to step in. I must sign one before the season starts, possibly a loan but prefer an experienced CB if possible. Another "Must have"

3) An upgrade to CM(a) - As i mentioned, i am on the hunt for a more suited player here. My 2 converted wingers did ok, and are both young so it would not be the end of the world if i cant find someone, but its a "Should have"

4) A keeper upgrade - I do view a solid keeper as important in any tactic. My 37yr old could stretch out another half season if i need to, so its not top priority but i know there are usually a lot of free keepers so i will be keeping an eye out. Its another "Should have"

5) A DLP addition - As mentioned, i have a space here i could fill. However DLP is not a physically demanding position in my set up, i can easily get 40 games a season out each if they stay injury free so huge depth isnt vital. Probably a "could have"

6) Back ups for RB and RM - This is very much low priority. The starting players are established and stay fit so far. I have youths who can cover but they are not great, so if i have free budget and someone is available i might plug these gaps. Very much a "could have"

I will post the signings i made, and exactly how they are suited to the tactic, in a seperate post. I wont go into the scouting process as thats a seperate issue, but suffice to say i had scouts around Europe throughout season 1 even though i wasnt intending to make signings. I wanted to build up as much knowledge and as big a scouted player DB as possible. I tend to target places like eastern europe (Croatia is a hot bed) and Holland and Italy (dutch often have some youth players on amatuer terms, Italy can have lower league gems).

[Double0Seven]

If you want a good keeper get Sam Johnstone. Managed to get him for 200k and 16k wage per week in second season. He is great and still young.

[Jambo98]

If you want a good keeper get Sam Johnstone. Managed to get him for 200k and 16k wage per week in second season. He is great and still young.

Cheers, but afraid my entire wage budget is less than £65K per week. My best players will be on £4.5K per week at best

There is value to be found, particularly if you focus on the right type of players for a given system. I will post some of the players and try to show how they link shortly

[Jambo98]

Ok, so i had my priority list, and i had the knowledge of my tactic, the type of player it demands and the key strengths for each position. I had done a lot of scouting over season 1 and the close season (i dont use attribute masking) so it was time to sift reports, filter by various attributes, scout more, and find players who could compliment my team.

Priority 1 - The new Striker(s)

I really struggled to find a player i liked for my F9 role. I wanted someone who could be almost winger like in their dribbling and speed ability, could spot a pass (my F9 comes deep and turns, so he is presented with passing options and dribbling chances). At the same time, he is still in essence a striker, so wanted some level of finishing. Eventually, having exhausted all the transfer options i could find via scouting, transfer list and even the odd agent offer, i had to turn to loan targets for a short term fix. I found an old friend from FM14 (I had im 4 seasons in for Wolfsburg on a fun save).

Fede Vico

Why Sign him?

• Dribbing/Acceleration/Agility at 15/14/15 - He can beat a man when he gets turned. I would have liked better balance to compliment these, but i had compromise somewhere to get an achievable signing
  
• Vision/Passing at 14/15 - He will see his passing options when he drops off and gets turned and can execute the pass
  
• Finishing/Composure at 13/13 - For my level, acceptable level of putting the ball in the net
  
• Technique at 14 - Underpins all the different things an F9 has to do in my system
  

The reality is that he is a short term solution, since i cant afford him perm (they want £8mill). Which brings me to the second striker i signed

Craig Wighton

Why sign him?

• One for the future - Scouts gave him 3.5 Yellow star / 4.5 Black stars. If he fullfils the black star potential he could be a great player
  
• Dribbling stats - Agility/balance already 13/13, Acceleration/Dribbing at 10/10. He can further develop these and become a good runner
  
• Passing stats - Passing/Vision already at 12/14. A bit of focus on his passing and he is already much better than last seasons players in this aspect, which is important to em
  
• Goalscoring - Finishing/Composure at 13/13 and anticipation at 13 - These are already well developed for my level of football
  
• Technique at 13 - Again underpins all of the above ability.
  
• Somewhat 2 footed - has "reasonable" left foot and "very good" right - good for a central striker to have
  

He will be second choice to Vico, but he will get enough first team action to develop and will also have very focused training over the first year to develop him. He will also learn a couple of PPMs hopefully. He did cost me all my remaining transfer funds (£800K including all add ons) and a chunk of his future fee, but hopefully be worth it.

Priority 2 - The new CB

Again, i struggled to find a CB i liked enough to sign perm. Everyone was either not up to scratch, too expensive, had obvious holes or wasnt interested. A bit frustration, especially as i needed 2 (a started and 3rd/4th choice). In the end, the main signing was a loanee, who may well stay longer, and a good young Scottish back-up

Lukas Spendlhofer

Why sign him?

• Defending basics - Tacking/Positioning/Strength at 14/14/16. He can do the things any defender needs to be able to do, and he wont be knocked around.
  
• Aerial presence - I like a centre back to be big to deal with crosses. He has Heading/Jumping at 14/15 and is 6ft 2"
  
• High Line attributes - These are passable, as again i had to compromise a bit. But his anticipation/acceleration/decisions are 11/11/12. Hopefully i can train these up a little, as he is still young with unfulfilled potential according to my scouts and Ass Man
  
• Ball Player - A bonus really, passing/first touch/technique at 13/12/11
  

Although he is a loan, i got inter to agree a future price of only £300K which i should be able to afford after Jan. He is also on very low wages and at 22 still has time to meet his potential if he is given first team football

I also signed Marcus Fraser who was release by Celtic as a 19yr old 4th choice/prospect. Young, Scottish and good enough for the odd game.

The CM(a) upgrade

This one actually fell into my lap. I knew was likely looking for a winger type, perhaps with some level of positional ability in CM, but one with winger type attributes who would be an upgrade. At the end of May, i got the news item about players released by SPL clubs and this guy was on it. I pounced right away. Free transfer and formerly very highly rated IRL, with his career stalling a bit the last 18 months. Hopefully we can get him firing again

Gary Mackay-Steven

Why sign him?

• Dribbling/Acceleration/Agility/Balance/Pace - 15/14/14/13/14. He really is a great player with the ball at his feet at this level. A poor mans Raheem......
  
• Flair/Technique - 20/16 - Wow, thats a flair player! he can do the unexpected with the ball and has the technique to pull it off
  
• Passing/Crossing/Decision/Vision - 12/13/11/12 - Passing not a big part of his game, and i would like that Decisions stat to be a little higher, but none of that is terrible, particularly for his secondary purpose
  
• Finishing / Composure - 13/14 - A nice bonus for a position i hope can chip in with a nice goalscoring return
  

At 24 he should be just entering his peak, is Scottish so no adaptability problems and came free without crazy wages. Really pleased with this signing if he can stay fit

The Keeper Upgrade

This was one i expected i could find on a free, as lots of keepers seem to get released. I sifted few a few out of contract ones, and scouted a few, but ended up signing one of the first i spotted. A great pedigree after spending most of his career at Roma and didnt want the world in wages. He is 30 but for a keeper thats nothing.

Gianluca Curci

Why sign him?

• Shot stopping - Reflexes/Agility/Anticipation/one on one at 14/15/14/15 - More than i could expect at my level really
  
• Presence - Aerial Ability/Command/Communication at 14/14/14 - A nice all-rounder here. He deals well with crosses and manages his defence well
  
• Distribution - Kicking/Throwing at 13/13 - No great weakness here
  

Nice routine signing. I probably didnt expect to get quite as good a keeper as him, with his game being good in every aspect, if not outstanding. He should be my keeper for a few years.

The DLP Addition

This one was a good example of how an opportunity can come along and slightly change your plans. I was initially thinking i might end up just signing a 4th choice back up to Pallardo/Gomis/Bauben here. However on July 1st, where i always sift the players released by prem clubs, i found a good Edinburgh boy, former national captain and still with a fair bit left in his tank. His wages were a challenge but a bit of negotiating and bonus offering etc managed to clinch the deal for probably our biggest signing of the summer.

Darren Fletcher

Why sign him?

• Personality/Leadership - The guy has "model professional" personality type. It doesnt get much better. Also leadership at 18. Guess who our new captain is
  
• Defensive ability - Tackling/Positioning/Aggression/Anticipation - 14/17/15/16. He can break up attacks and will always make the challenge, and more often than not, be in the right place
  
• Hard working - Work rate/Team work/Concentration/Determination at 15/19/17/18. This position in my team often has to sacrafice himself for the team. Sit back as others attack, do the donkey work. He will do that all day long
  

What a coup for Hearts! The former Scotland captain and Man Utd vice captain on a free. He will be my club captain and tutor for my best youths. He will initially play the DLP(s) role, although he may switch to the defend duty one if i can find myself a player with even better passing/vision and allow Darren to really anchor things.

Backups for RM/RB

These were lowest priority, and indeed i have not signed a back up RB yet as i just dont see anyone suitable without giving out wages above what i am prepared to go to for a back up. On the RM, i essentially focussed on natural centre midfielders who could be trained to play out there, similar to Jason Holt. I found another Scottish Free which was good as it keeps up the home grown quota and helps with adapting etc.

Rhys McCabe

Why sign him?

• Playmaking type - Passing/Vision/Composure/First touch at 14/12/13/14 - This position isnt set as WP, but he does a lot of play making in my system and a lot of through balls and passes. For a back up, those are great stats
  
• Good engine - Work rate /Team work/Stamina/Fitness at 13/10/13/15 - Again in my team this position covers a lot of ground, would like better team work but this is a back up in the SPL so have to be realistic.
  
• Movement - Off the ball/Anticipation at 12/13 - He needs to get into the box at the right times. These help that
  

Again at 23 a bit of a stalled prospect released by Sheff Wed and wanted very reasonable wages. A great back up for Holt and in a pinch could fill in at DLP(s) in the SPL as we wont have too much defending in games against bottom sides.

Summary

Ok so that was my transfer business complete (I also focus a lot on youth scouting and signings for the U20s, but less relevant to the tactic at the moment). You might be wondering why all that massive text about transfer business when its a tactics forum? The reason, and key, is to look at the bullets for each. I had to focus on the types of player i want and need. I discounted some very good advanced playmaker types for example for the CM(A) slot as my system demands a dribbler there and thats what i had to target. Likewise with the striker, i could have any number of very good SPL type "forward", but i needed a very specific skillset so i focused on that.

Hopefully the insights are of some use.

Worth noting that i realise that signing so many new players in one go is not great for squad gelling, and this can have an impact on early season performances. I had to make this conscious choice though, as we are a newly promoted team who just lacked the players we need for the long term. With the exception of Vico, i expect all of these players to contribute for a good 3 seasons.

[DouglasMig]

Jambo, Learning so much from tactical geniuses like you. Thank you for this awesome thread.

Can you give me an example for a Xmas tree? 4-5-1 / 4-3-2-1 ?

[Jambo98]

Thanks Douglas, glad you have enjoyed it. I am no genius though, its just a case of being logical and methodical

The Xmas tree is a shape i have not gotten around to trying, but i think this shape would be great for it.

I would probably set it up by having the central of the middle 3 as my "holder", either DLP(d) or DLP(s). Out wide i would be a bit more cautious than my current tactic, with WM(s) or perhaps WPM(s) - i would set them up to sit narrow and cut inside a lot. The "outer" 2 centre mids would be attacking to create the shape. Probably CM(a) and AP(a) to give some variety.

It would also be a great system to use the "inverted wing back" role (although i dont believe that role works properly in game) - getting a fulback who can cut into the middle of the pitch would benefit such a setup i think .

Give it a try - see how you go

[peleJunior]

Pfft! Thiago in your Liverpool save and Fletcher in your Hearts save? Stop praying to the DLP Gods Would you prefer the IF to the WMa you used in the Liverpool save? Did you have a think about putting a player to the DM slot on the IF side to balance it? Or are you happy with how it plays out?

[TIR669]

Fantastic thread, I love the constant tweaking of the tactic as well as finding out some quite interesting facts/tests regarding various PIs/TIs and roles.

Liverpool results were great, but the Hearts season was mental - only 19 goals conceded! I'm looking forward to seeing how will you manage in SPL.

EDIT: first league game in the new season. During the summer I went from my old 4-4-2/4-5-1 (DLF would often drop to AM strata) to a proper 4-5-1 and found this topic. Four friendly games plus this league match, all won with no goals conceded. Bear in mind this is the Maltese Premier Division where PPMs are quite a rare breed. Originally I went for a asymmetric 4-2-3-1 (DM-MC-AM) but after seeing this, I made a couple of changes. My original style of play was very much alike the idea you had in the OP.

The opposition played defensively, which pushed my d-line higher than I expected, I reckon it will drop a bit against stronger sides. I was a bit disappointed with my striker's stats as he should have scored at least one.

[Jambo98]

Pfft! Thiago in your Liverpool save and Fletcher in your Hearts save? Stop praying to the DLP Gods Would you prefer the IF to the WMa you used in the Liverpool save? Did you have a think about putting a player to the DM slot on the IF side to balance it? Or are you happy with how it plays out?

Yeah i have been quite lucky with those 2 transfers Fletcher almost always ends up free at the end of season 1 and being an Edinburgh boy, perhaps i got a discount He has been superb for me so far.

In terms of the setup, i think its horses for courses. With Liverpool, or with a similar stature of club with the world class player types, i like the WM setup for the balance. For a slightly lower standard of player, it is both slightly harder to get players to get into the right positions attacking wise quickly (combination of lack of PPMs and lower attributes in things like anticipation and off the ball) and also harder to have a striker who can really hold the ball up, but whilst moving (again, more attribute based issues). This is what led me to needing to move the LM forward, to get the support their quickly.

I didnt think about moving the MC back do DM - This would just create an even bigger vertical space in that area for the opposition to potentially exploit, and would also change the dynamic of my 2 x DLP working together both defensively and offensively.

Fantastic thread, I love the constant tweaking of the tactic as well as finding out some quite interesting facts/tests regarding various PIs/TIs and roles.

Liverpool results were great, but the Hearts season was mental - only 19 goals conceded! I'm looking forward to seeing how will you manage in SPL.

EDIT: first league game in the new season. During the summer I went from my old 4-4-2/4-5-1 (DLF would often drop to AM strata) to a proper 4-5-1 and found this topic. Four friendly games plus this league match, all won with no goals conceded. Bear in mind this is the Maltese Premier Division where PPMs are quite a rare breed. Originally I went for a asymmetric 4-2-3-1 (DM-MC-AM) but after seeing this, I made a couple of changes. My original style of play was very much alike the idea you had in the OP.

The opposition played defensively, which pushed my d-line higher than I expected, I reckon it will drop a bit against stronger sides. I was a bit disappointed with my striker's stats as he should have scored at least one.

Glad you enjoyed it and were able to take somethings out of it Yeah 19 goals must be the least i have ever conceded, but Hearts are a good bit better than a lot of the clubs at that level. The SPL has been fairly routine so far (11 pts clear after 25 games). I dont think we will match our defensive record from last season (already 16 conceded in the 25 games thus far) but the system is still holding firm

Your heat map is interesting, suggests your LM got forward a lot, which per the above reply to pelejunior, is an issue i found at the lower level. What duty/role did you have on the LM? Looks like its working well!

[TIR669]

#11 was actually a IM(a) for several reasons. Firstly, my left back is better than my right back defensively but weaker offensively which is why my right flank sees more overlapping than the left. Also, I have a shortage of LM players in my squad, but several AM/ST players that can jump in on the AML spot. The player from the previous post didn't play in the game pictured below, but after changing the role to IF(s), I got two assists from him. Because of my F9 dropping deep, I wanted to push my winger, or inside forward in this case, even more in the middle and into the box. And on top of that, having only three attack duties (RB-FB, CM and RM-WM) seemed insufficient.

Almost perfect symmetry and I love the MC triangle.

[flipsix3]

Just another :applause:on the excellent thread Jambo - plenty of food for thought, and certainly some ideas (around monitoring and adapting) that I want/need to take on board. Keep up the great work.

[Jambo98]

Looks good TIR669 - Similar to the tweak i have in my Hearts save

Glad its helping you flipsix3 - Let us know how things go for you.

I am nearing the end of my second season with Hearts. Will do a bit of a write up including some views on keeping the faith and how to not fall into the "Ranieri trap" of constantly tweaking. About to clinch the league with 6 games to spare, league cup is in the cabinet. Unfortunately we have lost our grip on the Scottish Cup. The Europa League was also a step up too far for a newly promoted team. We made the group stages which was a huge achievement, but we couldnt get out of the group. The gulf in class in player cannot always be overcome just by a tactical system in my opinion

Once i finish this season, i might have a look at trying to make the 451 into the "Xmas tree" shape, and perhaps try it with a bottom half side in Serie A. The Hearts save will be long term, but a break to try that different shape could be some fun