Ajax - When Real Life Meets Football Manager - FM14

[Cleon]

Please don't bump, if I've not answered its because I'm busy or don't have time to talk tactics

[mikcheck]

I'm sorry Cleon.

[Bgj101]

Meant to ask....what skin or settings are you using to get all this info on the player overview screen?

John

[Cleon]

I use Alavanja and play at a high resolution.

[Hoarau]

Right, i'm finally getting around to putting up a little bit of insight into how i've develop some of Ajax's highly gifted young players. Now i don't have anywhere near a grasp as someone like Cleon, with large helpings of his advice i'm starting to get a pattern of developing players with some mild rewards. As Cleon has said being Ajax of course helps, with the fantastic resources and training facilities there is still a lot of work to be done as the players wont develop to near thier potential without some close work and keeping an eye on thier training.

I don't have as much time as i'd like to play FM these days so i don't tend to go into deep detail when making notes and such, most of my "records" are yellow postit notes around my PC... I do however make good use of the "Notes" feature in the game, another thing Cleon advised last year, i train my players on a 2 or 3 month cycle. I'm still unsure when/if or how i should be rotating between specific attribute training and more general role based training. If i earmark a player to play a certain role in my formation i'll train the attributes needed for that role with a heavy focus. once they hit about 21/22 i tend to alternate between differnet training roles.

Something i do which im not sure about, i seem to remember it being talked about last year, i will train say a striker on the BBM training because it trains a broad range of attributes while not fully useful it does get a group of say 3/4 attributes he could benefit from having a slight boost in, again i'm not entierly sure if this works and it's something i'm still playing around with.

Another great benefit you have with Ajax is Jong ajax, basically your reserve team that plays in the Dutch second tier, the Jupiler League, its my favorite resource as you can basically give your young players first team football in a competitive league. I have large squad but i like to send players to Jong ajax for say a 10 game period if i can't give them adaquete game time in the first team. It's a good idead to monitor the side and take action, i've sent players to help them if they are on bad run so as note to downturn the players morale.

As i didn't know this thread was being made i didnt take any "before" screenshots with the following players so i can't really give you a comparisson, Cleon if he's just started of course will have such info. This is just to show the kind of development they are going through just now, if Cleon doesnt mind i'll continue posting their continued progression as a lot of them are still quite young. Anyway here is a selection of my players aswell as my most succesful story(Viktor Fischer). Now a lot of these as works in progress, some aren't doing as well as others obviously down to either my poor training or thier defiiciences :

Richedly Bazoer

Danny Hoesen

Ricardo Kishna

Dejan Meleg

Abdelhak Nouri

Jario Riedewld

Kenny Tete

Branco van den Boomen

Mickey van der Hart

Viktor Fischer

I know i sold him but City offered £39m in hi final year and he would't sign a new deal, he's improved slightly since moving but that is almost how he was looking when he left, still my most succesful development story ahead of Meleg.

As i said i'm not great at many, if not all parts of this game so please be gentle, any questions or requests just ask. Let me know what you think about how i approach the development Cleon, both positive & negative.

[Cleon]

That's some really good progression. How did you approach tutoring? How many times and who did you tutor Kishna with?

[Hoarau]

That's some really good progression. How did you approach tutoring? How many times and who did you tutor Kishna with?

Thanks.

The tutoring is really a mixed bag for me, with Meleg & Kishna its simple, i rotated getting them tutored twice by Siem de Jong, after that it was role/attribute training. As i said before in here the real key for me is games, games, games.. these boys have played a lot of football and i feel that has helped them kick on quicker. Bazoer & most defenders get tutored by Blind. As i say i find tutoring a mixed bag as i refuse to bring in older players just for thqt purpose as i don't feel it fits in the realm of real life. No club brings in players just for that role, espically with the money some of these players command. So i've only ever tried to use who we have at the club from the outset. De Jong is a great tutor i must say.

How do you approach the role/attribute focus then? do you prefer to mould thier specific stats at a younger age then mould them allround or would you try and cover many bases with role training so as to get them a well rounded base to start out with?

This save has given me anew outlook and interest in a part of this game i've really neglected before.

**EDIT**

Its actually funny as some of the players ive trained up are now becoming really good tutors themselves, this guy wasn't much when i bought him but now he's my top tutor...

[grays-ath08]

I am very sorry but i can only find individual training (which is great by the way) but not a team training 'how to do' Can someone please explain or advise how they set up their team training throughout the season for the best effects. Thanks

[Guest]

I am very sorry but i can only find individual training (which is great by the way) but not a team training 'how to do' Can someone please explain or advise how they set up their team training throughout the season for the best effects. Thanks

If you look carefully it's all there. Especially the most important aspect Pre-season training.

[grays-ath08]

Ok ill look again. I saw the pre season stuff just not during the season. I will have a look again

[Guest]

Post number 9, 10, 14 and 15.....you essentially need to implement all that info which encapsulates facilities, coaches, general match training and pre-season. Nobody will essentially give you a plan because were all looking for different things with different schedules and different teams and players. But all of that will give you an idea of what you need to do, also a lot of questions re:general training have been asked on here so you might want to go through all the pages.

[nozshand]

I'm always under the impression that determination has a direct effect on player development. At the end of the season a player with high determination is going gain more attribute than a player with low determination, can you clarify on that?

[Guest]

I'm always under the impression that determination has a direct effect on player development. At the end of the season a player with high determination is going gain more attribute than a player with low determination, can you clarify on that?

It's all in Cleons posts.

As I'm focusing on youth development with the aim of developing/buying cheap and selling for (hopefully) big money then player personality is a big part of what I'm trying to achieve. So for this I need players who I know will train hard and give it their all. What determines this is not determination, that is a misconception amongst the community, what you need to look for in a player is an indication of the hidden attribute professionalism. Ambition wouldn't hurt either but ultimately it is professionalism that determines how well a player applies himself in training.

[Vetinari]

Love the thread Cleon, I'm adapting a lot of your processes into my own save. The use of notes in particular is going to be a revelation, I never realised before that you could set reminders! A couple of questions on tutoring that I haven't seen asked (unless I missed it):

1. I know older players with professional personalities make some of the best tutors. But if a young player already has a slightly positive personality (for example fairly determined) is it better to tutor them with an older player who has a determined personality rather than professional?

2. Added to that, if a young player is already say a model professional, what sort of tutoring do you think would be important (if any)?

3.Finally does age have any effect on how good a tutor a player will be? I know players mental attributes improve as they age, but if you have a 22 year old who already has excellent mental attributes will he be worse at tutoring than a 30 year old with the same attributes?

Thanks for any help you can give on these, I'm looking forward to doing a bit of experimenting as well!

[Cleon]

1 - The age of the player doesn't matter at all, so he could be 25 or 35. Just focus on the personality of the tutor as that's all that matters. And no a determined personality isn't a good personality in terms of developing the player and getting them to be the best player they can. It's all explained in the personality section of the thread the types of personalities which are good. Remember that a player needs both ambition and professionalism only in terms of developing, all the other types that don't have high attributes for those are no good unless you are trying to create a specific group of players with a specific personality for some reason.

2 - I wouldn't there would be no benefit from it, he already has the top personality.

3 -Nope its the personality what matter and not the attributes as the attributes don't get transferred only the personality ones despite what some might think

[Vetinari]

Thanks for clearing those up so quickly! I'd forgotten that the personalities were primarily made up of hidden attributes. Just a quick follow up question on the back of that: Does the ambition of the tutor affect the gaining of a personality or is it only important for the tutee? The reason I ask is that for professional personalities you've listed that only professionalism and temperament/determination are taken into account, but with the fairly ambitious personality both professionalism and ambition are taken into account. I guess this is where a bit of guesswork comes into it? You could have a model professional with 20 Professionalism and 1 Ambition, compared with a fairly ambitious player with 14 Professionalism and 20 Ambition (of course according to that little chart professionalism could also be as low as 1).

[Cleon]

Sorry I made a mistake above I thought you said Model Citizen. Model professional isn't a good personality type to have due to the reason you mentioned, it could be low on the ambition side.

You should tutor players to better the personality, what the better personality is for you depends though. If you focus on player development then you need a personality type that has high professionalism and ambition. For anything other than player development that's down to you as to what is acceptable.

Again though its all explain in the personality section of the thread. And remember to check the links in this section as it gives you the media handling ratings so you know which hidden attributes are used.

[Vetinari]

Right I'm with you I think, so if I've got 3 youngsters:

1. Well developed, a personality I'm happy with (even if it's not one that neccesarily aids his development), tutoring is going to be less important.

2. Poorly developed but high potential, with a poor personality, it's going to be important to try and get him a tutor who, to take it to an unlikely extreme, is a model citizen.

3. Well developed, with a poor personlity, I'm going to want to try and change his personality but it's not necessarily as important to find him a tutor who is a model citizen (again taking it to extreme for clarity)

It's maybe a simplified model and I'm also working on the assumption that a well developed youngster is more likely to get game time which is also going to be important in his development. Like you say I guess it comes down to personal preference really!

Thanks again for your help Cleon!

[Cleon]

1 - The only reason to tutor someone is for the personality unless you want to try and pass PPM's on. Tutoring has no other benefit.

2 - Just someone with a personality type made up of both pro/ambition is what's needed yes. He'll also need game time to develop but I'm assuming that's a given if you read the thread

3 - It's highly unlikely you'll have someone well developed with a poor personality talking from a pure development sense i.e close to full potential etc.

Well developed youngsters would be surely part of the squad anyway? Anyone who has high potential gets games for me as you can see from the examples in the thread. The more game time the better and sooner they'll be regulars with the right personality.

[Vetinari]

Great, think I'm on the right track now, there will be some trial and error in there as well but I've got a handle on it now! I admit 3 is unlikely but it does happen, especially if the youngster is a little older and has first team experience from a previous club. Absolutely, I'm not trying to emulate exactly what you're doing here, perhaps just have a few more youth players make it to my starting 11 than I have done in the past by paying more attention to their specific training needs. In previous FMs I'd often end up with players who were rated 5 or 7* and apparently world class, but when you looked at their attributes it was clear they hadn't been raised in quite the right way. I remember in FM09 a striker who was rated as the best in the world (CA of 198 when I checked) but attributes were really uneven so he didn't exactly perform as you'd expect from all the hype he got! I know training has its limitations but hopefully having more of a method will help.

[Pelz]

Hi Cleon - Am just wondering how you're getting on tactically? I am also experimenting with Ajax at the moment and after a few initial teething problems feel I have got things pretty spot on at the moment, playing very close to how De Boer has done for the past three seasons (pretty much a 3-7 formation in essence)

Our tactical set ups are quite similar, certainly initially we were almost identical (despite my wing backs being more advanced, using a half back - simply trying to create that man defensive unit - and a slight difference in CM roles).. If you wouldn't mind taking a look at my thread http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/383963-Frank-De-Boer-s-Ajax-A-second-opinion-required...?p=9411336#post9411336 brief as it, where I got a great suggestion after struggling with the way things looked whilst attacking and letting me know what you think that'd be greatly appreciated. Really enjoying this little project.

[tomtuck01]

Haven't posted in this thread yet, but just thought I'd show a wee couple of images of the development of one of my players in just a few months.

As Cleon knows I follow his way of training very closely, if not quite exactly the same. I tutor a fair bit, add PPM's, (have only started doing this on FM14 for some reason), and I switch individual training focus every three months. (To do this I create a note to alert me every three months that focus needs changing). That is the only note I keep in game. I don't keep notes on players regards what individual focuses they have done/need to be doing, I just merely act on intuition and what I see infront of me. Sometimes I get it wrong, but hey-ho, real managers do too!

Anway, enough rambling. Here is a screenshot of youngster Joao Pedro in November 2019;

He clearly already has the makings of a good player, and has played a few games during the first few months of the season making an impact. Fast forward until August 2020, and here he is now;

The improvements are there for all to see, and all in just nine months. Last season he put in some massive performances for my team, and even scored a goal in the Champions League final! In the end he made 28 apperances (19 starts), scored 12 goals, and assisted a further 5.

The boy is just 19, and I'm looking forward to see how he develops further over the coming season.

[Cleon]

What a difference rounding some of the 9's to 10 has done, looks a lot better when viewing his attributes in the 2nd screenshot

That's some really nice progress there though Tom. I can't wait to see what his attributes look like at the end of the coming season, if he carrier this on he'll look like a different player. What personality type was/is he now?

[tomtuck01]

What a difference rounding some of the 9's to 10 has done, looks a lot better when viewing his attributes in the 2nd screenshot

That's some really nice progress there though Tom. I can't wait to see what his attributes look like at the end of the coming season, if he carrier this on he'll look like a different player. What personality type was/is he now?

Hadn't really thought about it until today, then remembered I had the screenie of him from the November on twitter and compared it to now. Imeasurable sifference - I imagine will assume I've edited!

His current personality is "Very Ambitious" and so far I've not been able to change it. Got Mattheus tutoring him now for a second time and he's "Fairly Professional", so hopefully it'll help.

[ashlfcowen]

I checked the first page but couldn't find an answer; what workload do you give your future stars?

[tomtuck01]

I checked the first page but couldn't find an answer; what workload do you give your future stars?

How do you mean? Workload in terms of what?

[ashlfcowen]

How do you mean? Workload in terms of what?

Focus intensity.

[tomtuck01]

Focus intensity.

He means that when you put them on an individual schedule the training screen gives a workload value for each player. It can be heavy, medium, light, etc. It's the training screen that shows their attributes and recent changes to attributes.

You give them whatever it comes up with. Alot of my players are all on heavy with having team traning, individual focus, and PPM stuff.

[ts1993]

How important would you say the split between match training and general training is for player development?

The reason I ask is because I've implemented a style of football that I'm happy with but I'm still conceding too many goals from set pieces (corners specifically). Devoting the maximum 50% of time at the training ground to defending set pieces has definitely improved the situation but I'm worried that I'm limiting the growth of my players by doing this.

I understand your approach is focused mainly on player development and therefore you are going to maximise time spent on general training, but will I still be able to bring through my young players to their potential with this emphasise on match preparation?

(As far as I understand there is an issue with set pieces that will hopefully be addressed in the next patch but for the moment this is the only solution I have come up with).

Also I'd just like to say that I really enjoy reading this thread and any of your other threads I come across, I'm very similar in that I like to take inspiration from real world approaches to football but your understanding of the match engine and workings of the game is something I can only dream of!

[Cleon]

Focus intensity.

I do mention it on the first page;

Remember that because I am focusing on individual attributes or roles that I set general training slider to match training 20% or less and give the players heavy focus for their role. It's also important I leave it on balanced due to the reasons explained in the training section of this thread

[Cleon]

How important would you say the split between match training and general training is for player development?

It's vital.

The reason I ask is because I've implemented a style of football that I'm happy with but I'm still conceding too many goals from set pieces (corners specifically). Devoting the maximum 50% of time at the training ground to defending set pieces has definitely improved the situation but I'm worried that I'm limiting the growth of my players by doing this.

If you are conceding all the time then using match training won't really fix this because its a bigger underlying issue that is at fault.

I understand your approach is focused mainly on player development and therefore you are going to maximise time spent on general training, but will I still be able to bring through my young players to their potential with this emphasise on match preparation?

It's possible maybe but it'll take a lot longer if it does happen at all. I don't maximise time spent on general training btw, individual focuses yes but not general training.

(As far as I understand there is an issue with set pieces that will hopefully be addressed in the next patch but for the moment this is the only solution I have come up with).

There is an issue yes but if you think this can make up for any bug you'd be mistaken. There is no setting that can fix a bug, if you are noticing a difference when using this then it suggest your current set up is weaker and not as good as it could be. So you might want to look into this so you don't have to sacrifice training

It only gives a very slight boost for the next game only anyway

[ts1993]

It's possible maybe but it'll take a lot longer if it does happen at all. I don't maximise time spent on general training btw, individual focuses yes but not general training.

Sorry I meant general training as opposed to match preparation, in other words the percentage of time you assign to training.

I don't want to derail your thread by asking for advice on the tactical side, but can I just ask do you have any problems conceding too many from corners?

I do concede from volleys from inside the box from a free man sometimes and I accept that because its a trade off with the number of players I commit forward which gives me a very high chance of scoring on the counter attack from the opposition corners. But I find even when all the key areas are marked the ball often evades every player on the pitch and falls to a heavily marked player to score with ease.

I'll have to try and find another solution then, thanks a lot for the help Is teamwork match preparation still cumulative? Because last year I had great success with player development by just setting match training to 10% on teamwork, and I'm sure I saw something on FM base that it was cumulative along with tactics only preparation.

[Cleon]

Teamwork focus has no match day benefit, it is merely a cumulative bonus for team gelling / the player's level of understanding with each other. So once players have a high understanding of each other and have gelled it has no benefit to anything else at all.

[underkiller]

Cleon thanks again for the great guide, i have read through it, and i hope my questions is not already asked or answered from you.

1. When you sign youngsters for your club (14-16 y old) do you only buying 4-5 stars potential, or is it specific attributes they should have, or do do they need to have a good personality (so you dont need to tutor them).

2. How long do you have a youngster at your club before you decides he is not good enough and then sell him (thinking about the players age limit you have).

3. I guess you never loan any of your players out?

[Cleon]

1 - All of those. It really depends, sometimes I'll see a player and think wow he could be good. Other times might be my scouts. But when I play as Ajax its very rarely that I do buy anyone, I like to use the players who come through the academy.

2 - By time a player is 19ish you should know if he's going to make it at the club or not due to how he's been developing for the past 2-3 years. I base it on development and how well someone is progressing rather than setting a age limit.

3 - Nope never.

[Cleon]

Going to take a stab at this concept in a league that's completely new to me, with Club Nacional in Uruguay. I think it will be a fun save, and here's why:

I went through the editor to snoop around for the teams with the best facilities in the game, and while they only have average training facilities, they do also have 20 for Youth Coaching and 20 for Youth Recruiting.

Along with trying out some things in a new league, I also want to try and implement a new tactic that I've wanted to try for a while now, which is the 4-2-2-2. I'm not really sure how much it's actually played in their league (the interwebs say that Uruguayan formations stemmed from the 2-3-5), but I think it will be a fun challenge. They are actually lacking in CM depth, so I will have to focus on retraining players and hopefully bringing through my own youth's to really mold the club into my vision. Similar to the Ajax philosophy though, I'm going to try and turn the club into an international feeder giant (although I'm not entirely sure how possible that is with foreign player statuses), and I think it will be fun to keep track of our academy players' achievements as they move on. This will also force me to study up more in the managerial sense because I don't know the opposition and I don't know my own squad. I think that using the Box formation as my cornerstone will also work nicely alongside an Ajax-minded philosophy of developing technically strong players, so we'll see how it goes.

Good luck with this, keep me posted

[ashlfcowen]

Jordan Rossiter.

I'm about to put him on a 3 month rotation of Heading, Tackling & First Touch then I think he'll be ready to take over from Fernando in the first team. I'll be playing him in the half-back position.

[Cleon]

Screenshots are either from different saves or the player has been edited due to drop/rise in some attributes that are untrainable like flair. Impossible for it to drop that much in 2 years without been edited.

[ashlfcowen]

No you're right, I'm not being completely honest. I didn't have a "before" screenshot to show, but still that shouldn't take away from his great improvements which have been down to your thread.

[Cleon]

No you're right, I'm not being completely honest. I didn't have a "before" screenshot to show, but still that shouldn't take away from his great improvements which have been down to your thread.

No it doesn't take away from it, I just wanted to make sure before that's all

Nice improvements though, I have him shorlisted on my Sheff Utd save

[ashlfcowen]

No it doesn't take away from it, I just wanted to make sure before that's all

Nice improvements though, I have him shorlisted on my Sheff Utd save

I'm at the stage in my career now where I don't have to pay over the odds for players as my first team is more than strong enough to hold it's own against most, so now I can completely concentrate on improving my youth - possibly the most enjoyable aspect of the game.

[ashlfcowen]

I do mention it on the first page;

Is this the same for your already established players, or just the ones you're looking to improve?

[Cleon]

Every single player.

[waitsfornone]

Looked through the thread again and may still have missed this, but do you rotate the General training options to develop well rounded players, or do you focus on different options based on deficiencies within the squad? Trying to wrap my head around crafting an approach to the general training focus. Currently I have been mainly focusing on Defense, and rotating to Ball Control, Team Cohesion, or Attacking every few weeks. Now I am wondering if a more rigid rotation would be better, or taking stock of my squad as a whole and improving the general areas in larger chunks.

[Vetinari]

I'm using a lot of the ideas in this thread in my own save at the moment. For every single player (even ones who I know won't make the first team) I regularly review training progress. I have reminders set up for every single player, and while sometimes I don't need anything more than a cursory glance, just the act of focussing on a player for 10 seconds helps me decide what to focus him on in the future. I have a handy little review template on what the player is currently doing and has been doing in the past, and I review each player either every month, 2 months or 3 months depending on how much growth I'm expecting or whether there are any PPMs or tutoring being done. It's a nice little role playing exercise apart from anything else, but I'm already seeing good progress in 2 of Arsenal's most promising youth prospects in Gnabry and Zelalem.

Unfortunately I'm not willing to give them as much game time as Cleon is so I may have to consider sending them out on loan to help their development, but I'll only send players to the right teams for short periods if they have high promise.

My main reason for making this post is that I've got my youth candidates through and while there are no standout players, there is one promising DM who I'm going to cultivate carefully and I'll post my results on here soon (if I survive until this time next season!)

[Cleon]

Looked through the thread again and may still have missed this, but do you rotate the General training options to develop well rounded players, or do you focus on different options based on deficiencies within the squad? Trying to wrap my head around crafting an approach to the general training focus. Currently I have been mainly focusing on Defense, and rotating to Ball Control, Team Cohesion, or Attacking every few weeks. Now I am wondering if a more rigid rotation would be better, or taking stock of my squad as a whole and improving the general areas in larger chunks.

I mention is several times in the training sections and throughout the thread, I leave it balanced.

If you are rotating them its pointless selecting them to begin with and you should just use balanced as you'll not see any benefit at all doing it every few weeks and are actually wasting training. It's all explained in the training section though if you need help

[waitsfornone]

I mention is several times in the training sections and throughout the thread, I leave it balanced.

If you are rotating them its pointless selecting them to begin with and you should just use balanced as you'll not see any benefit at all doing it every few weeks and are actually wasting training. It's all explained in the training section though if you need help

Ah, I am just a bit thick-headed and missed that you were USING Balanced. Thanks!

[Gdawg69]

Literally, and without a single shadow of a doubt, THE best thread that has ever been written on this forum (and there has been a hell of a lot - a good share from yourself Cleon).

The detail regarding Ajax' youth system is literally incredible reading. The fact you included 20 odd drills is just an absolute bonus.

The detail you have provided within the actual game itself is incredible.

I am literally in awe, I don't hide it.

No but's, if's or maybe's - most definitely the best thread that has ever been written.

Wonderful wonderful wonderful thread.

I do not post much - but quite frankly, it would be rude not to tell you how good this is.

[JBC#1]

Can somebody help me out and fill me in as to whqt the difference between the two tutoring options are? Do both of them affect personality and determination? What attributes are actually affected by tutoring?

[TwinsFan86]

Can somebody help me out and fill me in as to whqt the difference between the two tutoring options are? Do both of them affect personality and determination? What attributes are actually affected by tutoring?

Determination is the only visible stat affected by tutoring, the rest are the hidden attributes that make up the personality (Professionalism, Ambition, etc.)

The difference between the two options is that first option has a chance to transfer PPM's. They both have the same affect on the personality attributes.