End of teather reached - end of an era.

[Sussex Hammer]

Maybe instead of blaming the AI for cheating you should change things a little bit when it happens. You'll obviously know when to do this as it always happens at the same time. We all have bad runs of form and if we didn't I for one wouldn't bother playing.

I think the problem is the timing of the bad run of form and why? I sorted out and tweaked 3 new tactics. Beat Swansea 7-0 away and thought, mm maybe I have finally got it right. Had a reasonable run that included going away to Liverpool where I drew 0-0 and then went and beat Man City away 1-0. In both of those games they only had one shot on target between them So you are thinking, finally I have a tactic set that might work. Next game get done 3-0 away at a poor Birmingham siden where this relegation threatened outfit passed it around like Brazil. Won the next game but then lost at home to another poor side Leicester who when 1-0 up again passed it around like Brazil even though IRL there would possibly be nervousness creeping in. Then next game up I get absolutely battered away at Arsenal who of course in every single incarnation of FM never lose the ball and are as perfect as a football team could be. Are all SI employees Arsenal fans?!?!?!

So that's what annoys, good performances against two of the top teams and then it all falls apart. Yep people will exclaim "maybe your players got overconfident?" but how about some sanity here and say that confidence can breed confidence and maybe that should count as well because the game shows no rhyme or reason half the time to these bizarre changes in fortune and yes at times it almost seems like it works out your tactic and makes it unusable.

[marty78]

I think the problem is the timing of the bad run of form and why? I sorted out and tweaked 3 new tactics. Beat Swansea 7-0 away and thought, mm maybe I have finally got it right. Had a reasonable run that included going away to Liverpool where I drew 0-0 and then went and beat Man City away 1-0. In both of those games they only had one shot on target between them So you are thinking, finally I have a tactic set that might work. Next game get done 3-0 away at a poor Birmingham siden where this relegation threatened outfit passed it around like Brazil. Won the next game but then lost at home to another poor side Leicester who when 1-0 up again passed it around like Brazil even though IRL there would possibly be nervousness creeping in. Then next game up I get absolutely battered away at Arsenal who of course in every single incarnation of FM never lose the ball and are as perfect as a football team could be. Are all SI employees Arsenal fans?!?!?!

So that's what annoys, good performances against two of the top teams and then it all falls apart. Yep people will exclaim "maybe your players got overconfident?" but how about some sanity here and say that confidence can breed confidence and maybe that should count as well because the game shows no rhyme or reason half the time to these bizarre changes in fortune and yes at times it almost seems like it works out your tactic and makes it unusable.

The key is responding quickly in matches though. If a user is only watching highlights at fast speed then they are without doubt going to hit these patches of form and not understand why. If they are playing exactly the same tactics week in week out without a few tweaks before or during matches then they are going to struggle in spells.

Also if a poor team has "passed it round like Brazil" against you then you should have changed your tactic early in the matches to give them less time on the ball, less passing options and also make your own team keep and use the ball better.

Finally as for "the game shows no rhyme or reason half the time to these bizarre changes in fortune and yes at times it almost seems like it works out your tactic and makes it unusable." Football is at times a strange game. Poor results and runs of form can come quickly and out of nowhere. I'll give one example when Man Utd lost to both Blackburn(YES BLACKBURN) and Newcastle in a week after going nine premier league matches unbeaten and scoring 21 goals in that period. Also getting knocked out the Champions league by Basle after failing to beat them for the second time this season.

[Galldor]

Maybe instead of blaming the AI for cheating you should change things a little bit when it happens. You'll obviously know when to do this as it always happens at the same time. We all have bad runs of form and if we didn't I for one wouldn't bother playing.

you have missed my point entirely, I do make changes when the bad form hits, its just the stupidity of it that annoys me. I agree again that not having bad form would be stupid but it should happen for reasons not just because it is your time. If it is happening for a reason there should be at least some indication of that reason, it shouldn't just be making your opposition winning matches from two half chances every game.

My point is that SI need to quantify 'Bad form' and not just make some crazy swings in your results, I'm playing as forest and just beat Man City 5-1 because they are on 'Bad form' it makes the game so annoying win or loose.

[marty78]

you have missed my point entirely, I do make changes when the bad form hits, its just the stupidity of it that annoys me. I agree again that not having bad form would be stupid but it should happen for reasons not just because it is your time. If it is happening for a reason there should be at least some indication of that reason, it shouldn't just be making your opposition winning matches from two half chances every game.

My point is that SI need to quantify 'Bad form' and not just make some crazy swings in your results, I'm playing as forest and just beat Man City 5-1 because they are on 'Bad form' it makes the game so annoying win or loose.

Yeah but how exactly do yo "quantify bad form". I'm not sure what you mean at all i'm afraid. Other than injuries I can't see what else could lead to bad form yet teams without a host of injuries still suffer from poor form IRL. Also any team at top levels should have a squad to deal with all but the worst injury crisis so even this isn't always a valid reason IMO. My point is why should poor form always be predictable and if it was you'd adjust things before the bad form took hold and then destroy any league you play in I suspect. Really can't see a problem to be honest.

[Sussex Hammer]

The key is responding quickly in matches though. If a user is only watching highlights at fast speed then they are without doubt going to hit these patches of form and not understand why. If they are playing exactly the same tactics week in week out without a few tweaks before or during matches then they are going to struggle in spells.

Also if a poor team has "passed it round like Brazil" against you then you should have changed your tactic early in the matches to give them less time on the ball, less passing options and also make your own team keep and use the ball better.

Finally as for "the game shows no rhyme or reason half the time to these bizarre changes in fortune and yes at times it almost seems like it works out your tactic and makes it unusable." Football is at times a strange game. Poor results and runs of form can come quickly and out of nowhere. I'll give one example when Man Utd lost to both Blackburn(YES BLACKBURN) and Newcastle in a week after going nine premier league matches unbeaten and scoring 21 goals in that period. Also getting knocked out the Champions league by Basle after failing to beat them for the second time this season.

Oh, I respond. Closing down higher, closing down lower, harder tackling, easier tackling, the list goes on but those weak teams still pass it round like Brazil!! Three tactics should be enough because that's what you can work on in Team Management and the moral of FM is always not to tweak too much because otherwise your team will never settle! (Not my words!) You seem to assume that we just let it roll and not make counter changes. My point is WE DO make counter changes but there are some games in FM that you are destined not to win. Yes Man Utd did lose to Blackburn and Newcastle but they did not pass the ball around for 90 minutes like Brazil and never make any mistakes.

[jon157uk]

I personally, think this is just about the best manager game I've ever played (if steam ever lets me access it again that is), OK there are a few issues here and there, the most annoying ones for me being players not keeping fitness levels up, morale and injuries but as far as actual game play goes I think FM12 is a fantastic effort at simulating management. You should really keep on trying mate and not throw in the towel, trust me when you do hit on tactics and instructions that work this game is so playable and addictive you'll hate turning it off.

[marty78]

Oh, I respond. Closing down higher, closing down lower, harder tackling, easier tackling, the list goes on but those weak teams still pass it round like Brazil!! Three tactics should be enough because that's what you can work on in Team Management and the moral of FM is always not to tweak too much because otherwise your team will never settle! (Not my words!) You seem to assume that we just let it roll and not make counter changes. My point is WE DO make counter changes but there are some games in FM that you are destined not to win. Yes Man Utd did lose to Blackburn and Newcastle but they did not pass the ball around for 90 minutes like Brazil and never make any mistakes.

I'm sorry but we've all had games when afterward we think "where the bloody hell did that come from" but to suggest there are games where you are destined not to win is ridiculous. Many other posters on this forum have suggested this only to upload it and have someone else win said match immediately with a team with which they are completely unfamiliar. It may feel like your being cheated but thats just paranoia i'm afraid. The next time you or any of the other posters in this or similar threads has a match that is, in their eyes, unwinnnable because the AI is cheating, please upload your save and watch it get beaten in minutes.

I've only really got into FM in the last 3 versions and struggled badly to begin with and thought the same was true. However after spending a couple of years playing and reading these forums I've realised there is only one reason for my poor runs of form and that is the common denominator ME. Personally I believe that in most(not all) cases it is a case of the user become complacent rather than their team.

[BiggusD]

I'm sorry but we've all had games when afterward we think "where the bloody hell did that come from" but to suggest there are games where you are destined not to win is ridiculous. Many other posters on this forum have suggested this only to upload it and have someone else win said match immediately with a team with which they are completely unfamiliar. It may feel like your being cheated but thats just paranoia i'm afraid. The next time you or any of the other posters in this or similar threads has a match that is, in their eyes, unwinnnable because the AI is cheating, please upload your save and watch it get beaten in minutes.

I've only really got into FM in the last 3 versions and struggled badly to begin with and thought the same was true. However after spending a couple of years playing and reading these forums I've realised there is only one reason for my poor runs of form and that is the common denominator ME. Personally I believe that in most(not all) cases it is a case of the user become complacent rather than their team.

I don't think you understand the issue yet. Making tactical changes has nothing to do with anything - it is the fact that your team is subject to a literal roll of the dice when it comes to decision-making and attitude that upsets many users. No-one wants to know what to do when they find out that their team has decided to not play football for 89 next minutes of their lives even though they are paid for it and supposedly think it is fun. We want to know why they don't want to be on the pitch at that exact moment!

This is the ME -creating- bad form at random in order to ensure that statistics are realistic and runs come to an end. The idea is presumably to challenge the user to deal with confidence issues and to prolong good runs and shorten bad runs by using the tools in the game, but what they have done is actually booby-trapping the game creating frustration. If you want to have fun playing Monopoly you take out the "your hotels and houses are burning" cards and impose other house rules to speed up the game and create a fair challenge for everyone; I suggest SI does that too. It is a good idea to find a way to stop unrealistic winning runs but this should be done the way it does in real life: once and again the ball simply won't go into the goal no matter how well you play. It used to be this way in FM too, but in FM12 those matches are replaced with your team being outplayed in every way imaginable in the most shocking manner and that often by a vastly inferior team on a horrible losing run and abysmal morale throughout.

Telling me to adjust my tactic to that situation is quite frankly insulting.

[marty78]

I don't think you understand the issue yet. Making tactical changes has nothing to do with anything - it is the fact that your team is subject to a literal roll of the dice when it comes to decision-making and attitude that upsets many users. No-one wants to know what to do when they find out that their team has decided to not play football for 89 next minutes of their lives even though they are paid for it and supposedly think it is fun. We want to know why they don't want to be on the pitch at that exact moment!

This is the ME -creating- bad form at random in order to ensure that statistics are realistic and runs come to an end. The idea is presumably to challenge the user to deal with confidence issues and to prolong good runs and shorten bad runs by using the tools in the game, but what they have done is actually booby-trapping the game creating frustration. If you want to have fun playing Monopoly you take out the "your hotels and houses are burning" cards and impose other house rules to speed up the game and create a fair challenge for everyone; I suggest SI does that too. It is a good idea to find a way to stop unrealistic winning runs but this should be done the way it does in real life: once and again the ball simply won't go into the goal no matter how well you play. It used to be this way in FM too, but in FM12 those matches are replaced with your team being outplayed in every way imaginable in the most shocking manner and that often by a vastly inferior team on a horrible losing run and abysmal morale throughout.

Telling me to adjust my tactic to that situation is quite frankly insulting.

Well when someone proves that they have a match that is unwinnable and no-one on these forums can beat it then i'll believe that there is a major issue with the game but until then i'll stick with what I see in my own saves. My main point is that surely bad runs come out of nowhere all the time IRL or is that not the case? If they didn't surely many users would go entire seasons unbeaten as each good result leads to yet another good result. Do big sides always beat the smaller guys? As for being outplayed check the link below when sunderland beat then top of the league Chelsea at Stamford Bridge and fully deserved to. If this happened in FM would that be ok? Or indeed Greece or Denmark winning European championships despite being rank outsiders?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/9180668.stm

Finally I'm certainly not trying to insult you and can't remember telling YOU to do anything. It just that some people seem to expect to win against or play better football than a side just because they are a bigger club. Football isn't like that thank f**k. However if someone can provide incontrovertible evidence of the game doing this I'll happily apologise for my ramblings.

Just thought I'd add that I still have those dominate but lose 1-0 games all too often. The thing i struggle with the most is keeping a strikers form up.

[CityAndColour]

The way bad form is represented in the 3D is what irks me. You'll hold a team meeting, make a few tactical tweaks, change your training focus etc. Then sit through 90 minutes of five yard passes going astray, players doing the stupid 360 on the ball before being dispossessed, 8000 defensive clearances that go three yards (seriously, how do you swing your leg at a ball and make it go three yards?) etc. Fair enough when down on confidence the team is going to lack a cutting edge, but they are still footballers capable of doing the absolute basics of the game.

[Aytumious]

Couldn't agree with you more, but If you can find me a 7-8 streak where you have dominated and lost points every game (every season as well in the new patch) then I will shut up and agree.

Also this happens at the saaaame time every season, at least spice it up a bit and change the timing around or even better yet actually improve the AI instead of making it 'cheat'

Sorry. But LOL at the AI cheating.

[wwfan]

I don't think you understand the issue yet.

It is a good idea to find a way to stop unrealistic winning runs but this should be done the way it does in real life: once and again the ball simply won't go into the goal no matter how well you play. It used to be this way in FM too, but in FM12 those matches are replaced with your team being outplayed in every way imaginable in the most shocking manner and that often by a vastly inferior team on a horrible losing run and abysmal morale throughout.

Telling me to adjust my tactic to that situation is quite frankly insulting.

I don't think you understand what you are doing. Your theory about how the ME works is 100% wrong. You are equally wrong about the mechanisms for good and bad form. You can lose matches because the team is complacent, nervous, frustrated or, on occasion, unlucky. However, in all bar the unlucky scenarios, you, as the manager, have all the tools you need at your fingertips to sort things out.

If the team is playing very badly and making mistakes, tighten up, take no risks, and play for half time. Use the break to deal with the motivational issues and open up again 2nd half. Works nearly every time.

I just won the ECL with Southampton, playing Milan in the final. For whatever reason, my team started like dogs and I was being overrun. I either got the motivational approach wrong or, being a very young team and green in Europe, the occasion got too much for them. After about 18 mins, I could see the team was in real danger of conceding. We were second to every ball, couldn't make our passes, and were scrambling / desperate in defence. I reacted by switching to a Defensive strategy and using my 'Kill Game' shout combo. By half time, my team were actually statistically shading the match.

Reacting to the improved performance, I geed them up and sent them out to play more expansively. Then the unlucky scenario hit me. Despite bossing the match, the team got hit by a ball over the top, which was converted by Milan's world class FC. With 15 mins to go, I was the dominant team in every element bar being 1-0 down. I switched to an Overload strategy and went to a 'Technical Play' shout combination. It looked like the bad luck would win out until, in the 92nd minute, I won a free kick on the right, which my FC converted from a delivery to the far post.

During the first half of ET, my team was the better side, but nothing really exciting happened. At the 105 minute changeover, I checked the physical fitness of each team and found my lads were 10-20% fitter across the board. I opened up play, wider and quicker, with more risky passes, and scored on my first attack. I then immediately changed back to the defensive, 'Kill Game' strategy, although I increased my passing length to remain dangerous on the break, as I expected my fitter team might outpace them on the counter as they pushed up in search for the equaliser. 5 minutes later, my FC was sent clear by a direct pass from deep resulting in his being brought down in the area. The following red card and converted penalty killed Milan, and I was unlucky not to add to my tally.

Now, I could have watched that first 15 minutes and decided 'it's one of those games', because it sure looked like one. However, I reacted and ended up grabbing the glory. Every, and I mean every, match in FM has all kinds of potential storylines if you, the manager, learns how to react to what is going on. However, if you assume it is all writ in stone and a game mechanism unfairly prevents you from winning, you have no chance of ever learning a thing.

[siambluebird]

I'm not telling you this to insult you, I'm telling you my experience as a counter point that it is possible to win on this game. But if you'd rather be mired in self pity rather than using the fact that even someone who thinks soccer is the most boring sport in the world can beat the game to give you hope, then that's your prerogative.

I doubt someone who finds soccer the most boring game in the world would spend 11 seasons playing the game.

[siambluebird]

Thanks for the post WWFan. It was good to read. It actually read like a match report. Unfortunately my FM12 doesn't seem to react the way yours does. My FM11 seemed to follow the scenario you described.

[Sunderland AFC]

he said every tactic doesnt work for him, i basically use 442 and it works great, rarely has 442 ever worked well but it does, if it too hard to spend a tiny bit reading up on proper tactics then complaining the game is flawed then theres no hope for anyone.

he's probably changing it every game and expecting it to work, he's just not very good at it.

[ianscousemac]

wwFan your reports like that keep my faith in the game.

[BiggusD]

I don't think you understand what you are doing. Your theory about how the ME works is 100% wrong. You are equally wrong about the mechanisms for good and bad form. You can lose matches because the team is complacent, nervous, frustrated or, on occasion, unlucky. However, in all bar the unlucky scenarios, you, as the manager, have all the tools you need at your fingertips to sort things out.

If the team is playing very badly and making mistakes, tighten up, take no risks, and play for half time. Use the break to deal with the motivational issues and open up again 2nd half. Works nearly every time.

I just won the ECL with Southampton, playing Milan in the final. For whatever reason, my team started like dogs and I was being overrun. I either got the motivational approach wrong or, being a very young team and green in Europe, the occasion got too much for them. After about 18 mins, I could see the team was in real danger of conceding. We were second to every ball, couldn't make our passes, and were scrambling / desperate in defence. I reacted by switching to a Defensive strategy and using my 'Kill Game' shout combo. By half time, my team were actually statistically shading the match.

Reacting to the improved performance, I geed them up and sent them out to play more expansively. Then the unlucky scenario hit me. Despite bossing the match, the team got hit by a ball over the top, which was converted by Milan's world class FC. With 15 mins to go, I was the dominant team in every element bar being 1-0 down. I switched to an Overload strategy and went to a 'Technical Play' shout combination. It looked like the bad luck would win out until, in the 92nd minute, I won a free kick on the right, which my FC converted from a delivery to the far post.

During the first half of ET, my team was the better side, but nothing really exciting happened. At the 105 minute changeover, I checked the physical fitness of each team and found my lads were 10-20% fitter across the board. I opened up play, wider and quicker, with more risky passes, and scored on my first attack. I then immediately changed back to the defensive, 'Kill Game' strategy, although I increased my passing length to remain dangerous on the break, as I expected my fitter team might outpace them on the counter as they pushed up in search for the equaliser. 5 minutes later, my FC was sent clear by a direct pass from deep resulting in his being brought down in the area. The following red card and converted penalty killed Milan, and I was unlucky not to add to my tally.

Now, I could have watched that first 15 minutes and decided 'it's one of those games', because it sure looked like one. However, I reacted and ended up grabbing the glory. Every, and I mean every, match in FM has all kinds of potential storylines if you, the manager, learns how to react to what is going on. However, if you assume it is all writ in stone and a game mechanism unfairly prevents you from winning, you have no chance of ever learning a thing.

Yet again, reacting to that situation isn't the point (and your example there is a very big match with a small team (unless you're in 2020+) against a big team - watching Milan outplay my Bradford team wouldn't upset me I assure you) and I am quite capable of making tactical changes to adjust to the situation too. It isn't the -adjusting- that is what I want.

How do I know what went wrong so that I can prevent the same thing happening in the future? They weren't complacent because the motivation gadget didn't say complacent, or nervous or uninterested - it said "playing ok" and "looking motivated" or "looking fired up". Yet they were neither of those things, they were awful! They weren't tired, lacking focus, and the opponent did nothing special when it comes to tactics, and their players were weaker all over. But that is not what I see - I watch my team being completely chanceless.

The game before (and the ten games before that) I watch my team play better than much better opponents doing nothing special with their tactics either.

It is not a tactical issue, it is not a motivational issue (as far as it is possible to tell given the information available), it is not a player quality issue. What I know is that the motivational gadget and the team morale and the rest of the statistics don't tell the full story as they aren't giving precise enough information - and that is fine, it would be too magical to have such tools at my disposal. However, there must be clearer warning signs so that the user don't go into the game expecting a good performance but get a bunch of catatonic patients instead. If I could detect before going into such a match that my players are on the verge of expecting to just show up and win, I would certainly try to do something about it. And then the result of that attempt is still not a given, but at least I can say I tried. That would be ok.

Since we don't have the option of attending the traning sessions and look our players in their faces, we can't see when a week of low-intensity training leads into a match where the willingness to fight for the team is lost. If you have a good coaching team, this should be information given to you while going into the match, so that you have a chance of addressing the problem before they enter the pitch. So all I want is the faint possibility of preventing such performances from happening, meaning that if the last 5 days of training has been less than impressive this will of course affect the performance in the match no matter what you say, but maybe one or two players got the point and performs as expected. Maybe you can get the captain to go forward as a good example.

In any case, now the only thing you can do when these random events happen is to do as WWfan and Marty78 proposes; adjusting to the situation in-match. In no way am I saying that this shouldn't be necessary from time to time - I am saying that it destroys immersion; the suspension-of-disbelief is lost when the 3d animations show your team in an unrecognizable state. SI should work to prevent this from happening, while still making it hard to have your team remaining consistently in form over time. As I have said before; it seems like there are too few Ok/good performance animations and too many Awful/superb animations in the game.

[Sussex Hammer]

I see all arguments but West Ham aren't a "big " Club. I am not expecting to win every week. What I cannot understand though is how I can think I have it pretty much right and have Liverpool and Man City get only one shot in target against me in two games and then have relegation fodder play me off the park in the next two no matter what I do.

It doesn't help when after a great result you tell your team "Great win guys" and two players "seemed to lose focus" or "looked uninterested", or your "able assistant "doesn't bother with opposition instructions. I have games when I ask my Ass Man to do the opposition instructions and when things aren't going well I go to the opposition screen and the opp instructions have vanished and I now have David Silva roaming free despite him being man marked 5 minutes earlier!!

At times it just feels like the game should be called "psychological manager" because you can undo all your good on pitch work and tactical nous with one incorrect phrase from you or your assistant. It would help if your assistant was actually half decent rather than absolutely hopeless.

If we win a game against a top team but then get hammered by a bottom team the following week then fair enough but it would just be nice to know the reasons why without having to second guess why and not losing because of a wrong use of phrase in the dressing room. Did Alex Ferguson come out after those 3 losses to Blackburn, Newcastle and Basle and say they lost because he got his team talk wrong?!?!

[jon157uk]

@ wwfan

The match you describe above is an interesting point but it sounds like you are describing 'the match' that we all see from time to time but to be honest last time I had a match like that on my hands I did absolutley nothing, I got it in to my head that 'oh sh*t this is one of those matches where I have to be brought down to earth again', so I changed nothing, said nothing, didn't alter a single thing, I just decided to let it play out and get it over and done with...... I ended up winning 3-1 after being 0-1 right up to the 78th minute.

[jon157uk]

This sounds daft but I've got a feeling this game is written to favor the football cliche, by this I mean.....

'ABC are massive underdogs here today, can they pull off the shock'? ....... Well, yes they can and very often do in FM. Almost every time I get totally out played by 'the underdog' and very often end up losing (although not always of course) and changing things around makes very little or no difference what so ever. After saying this, as being 'the underdog' I've won loads of matches that I was expecting a battering.

'It's sometimes harder to play against 10 men' ...... Well it certainly is in FM, as soon as the Opposition get someone sent off you're going to start getting outplayed by 10 men every time so you'd better hope your defenders are ready for it.

'He's on a bad run of form'...... In FM when this happens it doesn't matter how 'world class' HE is, or what you say to HIM, he will carry on playing like an imbecile until the game decides HE's OK again.

Etc, etc

Having said this, don't get the idea I'm slagging FM off 'coz I'm not, I love this game even with it's sometimes, annoying and frustrating parts.

[Sussex Hammer]

Right this is a pretty good example and it just happened to me :

Have just tinkered a bit with my tactics, not much just a few little changes. I win 4-0 at home play some beautiful football my only gripe is I am 4 up at half time, use the old "don't get complacent" and as always happens in FM after battering the opposition in the first half you don't score in the second! But that's another thing.

Following week I am at home to Everton. Ok it's pretty much an even match up. But I am the better team, more possession by far, more shots on goal, more shots on target and in the second half I am battering them but my two strikers who scored three between them the previous week can't hit a cows arse with a banjo. Then with 10 minutes to go Everton who haven't been in my penalty area the whole game are suddenly there. Their striker is by the touchline and absolutely no danger at all. My experienced centre back and captain then inexplicably goes straight through the back of him to give away a penalty. They score and it's 1-0 down. I then go a bit more attacking but every goal kick or throw in they get we get on the commentary "xyz will take his time over this". He certainly will usually about 20 seconds before he releases it and I run out of time and lose 1-0. After the game the headline is "HAMMERS MADE TO RUE MISSED CHANCES".

Now I know it happens IRL but this is a game and how on earth can I make sure that my strikers who couldn't miss last week don't forget how to shoot straight this week and you can bet that my captain and defender wouldn't have made that challenge if I had been 4-0 up. It is quite simply inexplicable. You can't explain it and as much as some say you can you cannot stop it, it just happens and that is wrong. It's like in Call Of Duty if every mission once in a while a bullet ricocheted off the bark of a tree and shot your man in the back of the head. Yes it probably happens IRL but in a computer game situation when there is nothing you can do about it that would be somewhat harsh.

My players had won 4-0 the week before. They should have been full of confidence and my strikers should have been buzzing but yet again after dominating a game I should be winning the AI has throw in a late penalty to get Everton a win because everything else they tried failed!!

[marty78]

Yet again, reacting to that situation isn't the point (and your example there is a very big match with a small team (unless you're in 2020+) against a big team - watching Milan outplay my Bradford team wouldn't upset me I assure you) and I am quite capable of making tactical changes to adjust to the situation too. It isn't the -adjusting- that is what I want.

How do I know what went wrong so that I can prevent the same thing happening in the future? They weren't complacent because the motivation gadget didn't say complacent, or nervous or uninterested - it said "playing ok" and "looking motivated" or "looking fired up". Yet they were neither of those things, they were awful! They weren't tired, lacking focus, and the opponent did nothing special when it comes to tactics, and their players were weaker all over. But that is not what I see - I watch my team being completely chanceless.

The game before (and the ten games before that) I watch my team play better than much better opponents doing nothing special with their tactics either.

It is not a tactical issue, it is not a motivational issue (as far as it is possible to tell given the information available), it is not a player quality issue. What I know is that the motivational gadget and the team morale and the rest of the statistics don't tell the full story as they aren't giving precise enough information - and that is fine, it would be too magical to have such tools at my disposal. However, there must be clearer warning signs so that the user don't go into the game expecting a good performance but get a bunch of catatonic patients instead. If I could detect before going into such a match that my players are on the verge of expecting to just show up and win, I would certainly try to do something about it. And then the result of that attempt is still not a given, but at least I can say I tried. That would be ok.

Since we don't have the option of attending the traning sessions and look our players in their faces, we can't see when a week of low-intensity training leads into a match where the willingness to fight for the team is lost. If you have a good coaching team, this should be information given to you while going into the match, so that you have a chance of addressing the problem before they enter the pitch. So all I want is the faint possibility of preventing such performances from happening, meaning that if the last 5 days of training has been less than impressive this will of course affect the performance in the match no matter what you say, but maybe one or two players got the point and performs as expected. Maybe you can get the captain to go forward as a good example.

In any case, now the only thing you can do when these random events happen is to do as WWfan and Marty78 proposes; adjusting to the situation in-match. In no way am I saying that this shouldn't be necessary from time to time - I am saying that it destroys immersion; the suspension-of-disbelief is lost when the 3d animations show your team in an unrecognizable state. SI should work to prevent this from happening, while still making it hard to have your team remaining consistently in form over time. As I have said before; it seems like there are too few Ok/good performance animations and too many Awful/superb animations in the game.

Without doubt the 3d match animations need improving but with a new match engine due in FM13(I think) we'll all just have to grin and bear the current failings. I actually understand and agree with your point about perhaps having more information to point to what causes these performances but sometimes your team will look fine(motivated etc) going into the match but the opposition start well gaining a foothold in the game and this in itself should be enough to make your team nervous and unsure of themselves.

It would be wrong if you could always see a poor performance coming before a ball had been kicked as this would be extremely realistic and sometimes an opposition team should surprise you with a performance that is above their usual standard. This game isn't perfect, especially when it comes to the 3d animations, but it never cheats you.

SUSSEX HAMMER

Didn't West Ham go to Ipswich (who were 8 games without a win) and lose 5-1 the other week. Point is that not many would have seen that coming as, on paper, they were the much stronger side.

[Shake Appeal]

My players had won 4-0 the week before. They should have been full of confidence and my strikers should have been buzzing but yet again after dominating a game I should be winning the AI has throw in a late penalty to get Everton a win because everything else they tried failed!!

But doesn't that sound like textboox jadedness/complacency? You said in your other post that you saw your players losing focus or looking uninterested after you complimented them on a great result. Well, if you're on a great run of form, stop complimenting them in games they are supposed to win. You are in the business of managing expectations and morale, not results and performances. The latter are byproducts of getting most things right.

A pre-match team talk is about setting expectations and either increasing or decreasing pressure for the game ahead (in most cases, unless you are heavily favoured or on a good run, decreasing). A half-time team talk is about correcting any motivational issues that developed during the first half (usually lack of motivation or interest, but also undue nervousness or aggression). And the post-match team talk is about ensuring your players know how they performed relative to expectations (not absolutely), and cementing those expectations for the next match. People too often treat it as "getting it right" (i.e. matching what they say to how their team played, often by looking at the silly rating scores), but it's about adjusting expectations. You either want to increase the pressure on your team (within reason, and with an appreciation of the personalities within your squad) to combat complacency and jadedness, or you want to increase morale. Morale is a currency you spend to get results, and finding the smart ways to earn it is pretty much the whole point of the media and player interaction systems.

But look, it's a massively complicated game. There are literally thousands of factors at play every time the whistle blows to get a game started. Most of those factors are unknown or unavailable to you, many more you will ignore or overlook. What's really at fault for most defeats is our cognitive blindness to all the things that occurred to bring about the result, some of which we could have changed (and among which, player motivation is a relatively small component), most of which we will never know. But our human tendency to find patterns where none exist comes into play, and good ol' confirmation bias, and soon we have threads like this.

[Shake Appeal]

(All that said, and with tongue in cheek, if you 'dominate' a game start to finish and lose because of the opposition's only chance flies in, it really is your tactics. Or just bad luck. But usually your tactics.)

[SirCliveWolfe]

How come you've not been in the tactics forum asking for help? There are countless of thread's that help you understand how the ME and tactics work.

If every tactic you try fails no matter the league or team you are, then logic tells me its your own approach what's flawed. You should have took a look in the tactics section, especially at the pinned threads at the top of the forum.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do next

Match engine is broken and has had no work done on it since the stone-age... sad really everyone bought Champ Manager 01/02 because it was the better game, without the flashy graphics of an EA title or the useless features... sham that SI/SEGA have decided to go down the EA route...

[RICO]

I've come to the conclusion that the manager experience setting has a huge impact on how easy/hard the game is. I had previously started three Exeter games using my normal 'Auto' setting and did pretty badly. Tried a new game with 'International' experience and I'm 3rd 10 games in. The setting as far too much impact.

[Suge]

This thread is painful. You have to put something into games like this before you can hope to get anything back. It's not a 'pick-up-and-play' type of game so if you're looking for one of those search google for 'Angry Birds'.

[wwfan]

How do I know what went wrong so that I can prevent the same thing happening in the future?

All teams, in real life and in FM, throw in bad performances. Do think Alex Ferguson expected Man Utd to have a shocker against Blackburn and Newcastle? Or Kenny Dalglish was prepared for Liverpool not turning up against Bolton. Or, as mentioned above, Sam Allardyce thought West Ham were just about ready to conceded five?

There is always a chance it will happen. It might be through nervousness, complacency, frustration, or it might just be 'one of those days'. The point is, and I'll write this very slowly, every, every, every, every time this happens, you, the manager, can sort it out during the match. When your squad is on a long run of good form, the chances increase that the pressure of the run gets to some players, and that the opposition will be naturally fired up against you. If you get the motivational approach wrong, and it will get more and more difficult to get right as the streak extends, your team will throw in a bad day. Read post # 74 for one of the best analyses of how this works that I have ever seen.

However, you can always minimise the impact of these days through tactics, substitutions and in-match motivation. If, as you say, they are easy to recognise, you should be able to quickly react and play more conservative football to ensure that you can get to half-time still in the match. Then use half-time to sort the players out and win the 2nd half. I've seen this happen time and time again, and it is very rare for me not to win, or at least draw, these matches. I have lost count of the number of matches I've come from a goal down at half time to win with an excellent 2nd half performance.

I'm also beginning to lose count of how many times I've written this in a forum thread, only to have the same few people tell me I haven't understood their problem or they've already tried everything I suggest. Let's be very explicit about the following:

1: Team talks are related to having a bad game, but they are not the cause. The cause is the long-term motivational state of your players and how they react to pressure and expectation. If your motivational approach, including the team talk, makes the pressure worse, then the players will play badly. Likewise, but in opposition, to players who get complacent.

2: The notion of 'tweaking' your tactics in order to get them right is one of the reasons why people fail. Micro-tweaking tactics do not help teams in real life perform. Nor do they make tactics 'right' in FM.

3: The notion that 'classic tactics' are advanced and 'TC' tactics are simple is completely misinformed. For example, the shouts are a fantastic set of tools that can change a match around in a mouse click, and learning to use them well takes some sophisticated tactical thought. Although an FM veteran will be able to develop a very good classic system, its inherent static nature loses the dynamism of the TC, meaning it is far more difficult to react to in-match performance/situations. Because those who make classic tactics don't learn to react to in-match events, they have a tendency to let things happen. This doesn't make classic tactics better or worse, just different, more static, and reliant on the user spending many long, painful hours finding best slider combinations that might help the team get a slight advantage over AI tactics.

4: The AI doesn't crack tactics. Switching to a different formation doesn't confuse the AI. It just randomises results.

Sending out a team that is ready for the opposition, pressure and conditions, in a formation and system that gets the best out of each player is the only solution.

[Sussex Hammer]

Bit harsh on us Classic Managers there wwfan!! I have three tactics but also make suttle changes as things are going, maybe not as in depth as "shouts" but changes all the same. My problem is I don't have the time (or inclination) to watch all games all the way through so play on key highlights most of the time and I think you will agree "shouts" would not be as helpful on mere highlights. So I rely on my Assistant for feedback and there I feel is the main issue. Your Assistant at times is as much help as a hole in the head!! I mean if I left all my Teamtalks to my Assistant he will just say "Do it for the fans" every single time!

People talk about difficulty levels but to help those that are struggling and those who play FM as a game rather than an in depth simulation maybe developing a top quality Assistant Manager system is the way forward. Then those that like to do things themselves can do so whereas others can get great help from an Assistant that actually does help.

[wwfan]

Bit harsh on us Classic Managers there wwfan!!

Sorry. I edited what I wrote just prior to you posting. It is more in response to a regularly expressed opinion on these forums that the TC is dumbed down for newbies, whereas real managers use classic. Nothing is further from the truth. The TC is dynamic and simply transfers decision making away from the sliders and into match events. It also makes tactic creation a matter of minutes, and pre-match adaption to best utilise your starting players a few mouse clicks.

In contrast, most popular classic tactics rely on somehow gaining advantage over the AI through manipulating weaknesses in the ME. Not to say all of them do, but to have a single tactic that performs brilliantly against all types of opposition, formation and in all types of conditions generally requires a little bit of a helping hand. As creating classic tactics can be an exercise in frustration, I struggle to see why people continue to do so, given that it also takes away all the dynamic options (unless, of course, the creator makes a few hundred variations).

[BiggusD]

Sorry. I edited what I wrote just prior to you posting. It is more in response to a regularly expressed opinion on these forums that the TC is dumbed down for newbies, whereas real managers use classic. Nothing is further from the truth. The TC is dynamic and simply transfers decision making away from the sliders and into match events. It also makes tactic creation a matter of minutes, and pre-match adaption to best utilise your starting players a few mouse clicks.

In contrast, most popular classic tactics rely on somehow gaining advantage over the AI through manipulating weaknesses in the ME. Not to say all of them do, but to have a single tactic that performs brilliantly against all types of opposition, formation and in all types of conditions generally requires a little bit of a helping hand. As creating classic tactics can be an exercise in frustration, I struggle to see why people continue to do so, given that it also takes away all the dynamic options (unless, of course, the creator makes a few hundred variations).

The trick to making an "all-purpose" classic tactic is of course to make sure that the players are allowed to make correct choices, so that they can adapt to the circumstances themselves. That is how I see it anyways. This isn't as unrealistic as you think, because many rl managers do this. I would rather say that the influence you have on the game as a TC/shout manager is a bit unrealistic!

[Cleon]

The trick to making an "all-purpose" classic tactic is of course to make sure that the players are allowed to make correct choices, so that they can adapt to the circumstances themselves. That is how I see it anyways. This isn't as unrealistic as you think, because many rl managers do this. I would rather say that the influence you have on the game as a TC/shout manager is a bit unrealistic!

How is it unrealistic? Anyone who watches football can clearly see managers shouting instructions to a player telling them to be more narrow, don't dive in etc. So I'm not sure what you mean, care to expand on the comment?

[Sussex Hammer]

We will probably have to agree to disagree wwfan. I think each and every winning tactic whether Classic or TC could possibly take advantage of weaknesses in the ME after all winning football matches is all about exploiting the opposition. Plus every TC tactic is potentially a Classic Tactic and vice versa anyway because to develop them before you save them you tweak each and every one until they become a 4-4-2 - 4-5-1 or whatever. The only difference is that by the end of the game using the TC the tactic you finish off with is potentially a mile away from the tactic you started that game with due to shouts if used.

There isn't any right or wrong/better or worse way of playing the game it's pure preferance. I have tried the TC and just find it a little out of my control and I cannot get used to the shouts probably using too many and contradicting one shout with another and therefore just lose control totally. With Classic I have a feel for how my players play, knowing that a certain setting or instruction is right or wrong rather than not being sure whether a TC setting is correct or did Player A only just score because of a shout used. I also think that IRL a Manager doesn't use shouts as much as an FM Manager. I sit pretty much behind Big Sam at Upton Park and whilst he does bark instructions from time to time it isn't with regularity. That's not to say a Manager doesn't use them but I just think maybe a little too much emphasis is put on the psychological side in FM sometimes. I think we tend to forget that top players are professionals and can think for themselves. Not all but most of them!!!!!

As I say though each to their own and one is just as good as another but I do find it a bit disheartening that if a Classic Manager creates a good tactic or two it is more often than not put down to he or she finding an exploit in the ME!!!

[Cleon]

I sit pretty much behind Big Sam at Upton Park and whilst he does bark instructions from time to time it isn't with regularity.

That's because things are pretty much going in your favour this season. But if things were against you, do you think Big Sam wouldn't be in the technical area shouting at his player's and trying to change things to win games? Past history of him at Newcastle, Blackburn and Bolton suggest he would until he felt he was happy with how things where going.

FM is no different, you don't use the shouts all the time but when things are going wrong you do/should.

[BiggusD]

How is it unrealistic? Anyone who watches football can clearly see managers shouting instructions to a player telling them to be more narrow, don't dive in etc. So I'm not sure what you mean, care to expand on the comment?

Because complex tactical changes are followed instantly, and there are dozens of them - all being agreed upon by all the players before the match began.

[Sussex Hammer]

That's because things are pretty much going in your favour this season. But if things were against you, do you think Big Sam wouldn't be in the technical area shouting at his player's and trying to change things to win games? Past history of him at Newcastle, Blackburn and Bolton suggest he would until he felt he was happy with how things where going.

FM is no different, you don't use the shouts all the time but when things are going wrong you do/should.

Totally agree Cleon. All I am saying is that it is still possible to do all that using Classic. You can adjust the line or tempo or TW or whatever - maybe it takes longer to do it that way but for me anyway I can actually see what I have done and if it makes any difference. If it does I may save at that point to create another tactic whereas if you use shouts without looking at your team - player instructions you wouldn't actually see how it has affected your strategy, and if you saved it because it was working I suspect it would become a Classic Tactic!! Therefore I just think it is easier to replicate a match saving change for instance in Classic. For example. You are 2-0 down with 20 minutes to go. In Classic you can go to your tactic, push the DL up, increase mentality, go direct with the passing etc etc and your team may get back to 2-2, so you may then save the changes into say TACTIC ATTACK for future use and it may well work again in the future. Whereas and it's only my opinion at 2-0 down with the TC in the midst of battle you may throw a few shouts in. Like go wider, pump ball forward, get into box, that sort of thing and you could get back into the game at 2-2, but unless you have a very good memory or have written them down you won't have known what made the difference and as I ssaid if you had saved what you had done it becomes a Classic Tactic anyway!!

[wwfan]

How is it unrealistic? Anyone who watches football can clearly see managers shouting instructions to a player telling them to be more narrow, don't dive in etc. So I'm not sure what you mean, care to expand on the comment?

Further, if you use a pre-match shout strategy, which FM12 allows you to do, you won't need to do anything if it all works as you'd hoped. I only start getting active on the touchline if things are not going to plan.

[wwfan]

Because complex tactical changes are followed instantly, and there are dozens of them - all being agreed upon by all the players before the match began.

Which is simulated, although not perfectly, by having the possibility to design and save shout combinations in the tactics module. I'd love to see the FML Match Plans in FM though. That takes it all a stage further.

[themadsheep2001]

Which is simulated, although not perfectly, by having the possibility to design and save shout combinations in the tactics module. I'd love to see the FML Match Plans in FM though. That takes it all a stage further.

What are the FML match plans? Heard them mentioned before, but never played FML, are there any screenshots knocking about?

[wwfan]

What are the FML match plans? Heard them mentioned before, but never played FML, are there any screenshots knocking about?

No idea if there are screenshots. They basically told the players how to play based on pre-set instructions relating to scoreline and match time, i.e. if losing 1-0 at 80 mins switch to Overload + this shout combo, if winning 1-0 at half time, switch to Counter + this shout combo. You could override them by actively shouting, but the players would otherwise obey them during the match.

[themadsheep2001]

No idea if there are screenshots. They basically told the players how to play based on pre-set instructions relating to scoreline and match time, i.e. if losing 1-0 at 80 mins switch to Overload + this shout combo, if winning 1-0 at half time, switch to Counter + this shout combo. You could override them by actively shouting, but the players would otherwise obey them during the match.

Sounds like they would be an excellent addition to the game

[wwfan]

Sounds like they would be an excellent addition to the game

http://www.gameworldone.com/2009/08/31/match-plans-offline-management-in-1-3/

Detailed explanation of match plans.

[marty78]

That's because things are pretty much going in your favour this season. But if things were against you, do you think Big Sam wouldn't be in the technical area shouting at his player's and trying to change things to win games? Past history of him at Newcastle, Blackburn and Bolton suggest he would until he felt he was happy with how things where going.

Didn't Big Sam used to sit in the stands for the first half to get a better overview of the match? Does he still do this at the Boleyn or has changed his ways?

[Cleon]

Didn't Big Sam used to sit in the stands for the first half to get a better overview of the match? Does he still do this at the Boleyn or has changed his ways?

Unless things are going wrong then he tries to change things and went down to the technical area.

[Sussex Hammer]

Unless things are going wrong then he tries to change things and went down to the technical area.

Been in the technical area most of the season. Mind you more luck than judgement right now, why he persists playing Nolan is beyond me!!

[Äktsjon Männ]

Which is simulated, although not perfectly, by having the possibility to design and save shout combinations in the tactics module. I'd love to see the FML Match Plans in FM though. That takes it all a stage further.

That's his point, too many complex instructions are instantly being followed by the players. How is a manager supposed to get all that across from the touchline?

Managers in FM simply have too much control over player behaviour.

[wwfan]

That's his point' date=' too many complex instructions are instantly being followed by the players. How is a manager supposed to get all that across from the touchline?

Managers in FM simply have too much control over player behaviour.[/quote']

I think the word 'shouts' or 'touchline instructions' make people assume that these things are sudden impulses. They are actually a reflection of how the team should be preparing for the match, taking into consideration the strength of their starting eleven, formation, pitch and weather conditions. They are tactical plans that are worked on in training to be put in place on the pitch. Although the user has to be dynamic to put them into place, they are actually something like this:

We are the favourites, so will expect them to sit back. I'd like to snatch an early goal if possible. Given it is wet and the pitch will be greasy, we need to up the tempo and get the ball forward quickly early on. I'm not too worried about looking for risky passes as I'm expecting the defence to contain the opposition comfortably by pushing up against their slow forwards, so look for through ball and early crossing opportunities. If we do get a lead, lets push for a second to kill the match off. We've had a lot of tough matches recently, so it would be great to take the foot off the peddle and rest some tired legs. However, if it is not happening for us, it is imperative we get to half time level, so slow things down a bit later in the half to see it out. We'll then regroup at half-time.

John, I'd like you to man-mark Harris, as he is their only real danger player. We'll also need to be sure to close down the Smith if he gets space out wide, as he does have a decent delivery.

Off you go boys, go out and give the fans their money's worth. Bobby, I realise you've not been at your best recently, but I have faith in your ability. Go out and show me what you are capable of. Andy, it's your first start of the season today. No pressure, son, go and play your natural game.

If all that comes off, then the manager doesn't need to get involved. However, if it all goes to pot, he might start screaming new instructions form the sidelines, such as:

[insert swear words as needed], tighten up and get behind the ball. Stop playing Hollywood passes and keep hold of the [insert swear word] ball! Stay on your feet and stop giving away stupid free kicks!

[Dusty_Manager]

sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. i started unmployed (sundayleague) and got my first gig at Nimes Olympique, which should have been **** easy... i failed horribly and my only achievement was signign Robert Pires and i resigned after 3 months because i was sick of the inconsistency, i then got a job at Boston Utd and after losing 5 games in a row i resigned as i felt there was no hope for this supposedly promotion chasing side...

then i got a job at Forest Green Rovers who were struggling in Blue Square Prem, I tried oiut lots of different tactics at the expense of a few losses but the results got better and when January came, i had a mass overhaul of the squad and i finished top of the table, being at the club for less than a season, its my second season with them and im top and leading by 8 points in february.

so sometimes it will work and sometimes it wont. sometimes it depends on the players and whetehr they work well together, ive brought in loan players like Chopra who should be amazing but they dont listen to me and are utter crap. so expect less, experiment and achieve more.

[bigman]

wwfan is like the iraqi disinfo dude who told everyone we wern't invading when we were already there lol

[themadsheep2001]

wwfan is like the iraqi disinfo dude who told everyone we wern't invading when we were already there lol

He also helped create the TC, and therefore knows far about this than you. Making some cheap gag about Iraq, just looks silly.