FM2012 difficulty.

[andu1]

It's been discussed a lot in this thread. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/228246-10-years-in-and-4-4-2-rules-the-world

There were some changes in FM 2011 patch 11.2, but those were the last ones i think.

Can the thread be moved to the bugs forum?

If it's required i will simulate a game 50 years or so in the future, and compare the existing staff with the managers at the beginning of the game, to prove my point.

[PaulC]

No probs, I moved it there.

[grep]

Thanks Paul for helping the community.

btw, is there perhaps any chance that a flaggable hardcore option will be introduced with the first patch ? Maybe as a beta would be great.

Thx

[PaulC]

I think there will be some tweaking of morale in a forthcoming update ( I hate the word patch I don't think it's relevant any more all software updates itself ) and also managers with low world reputation will find life harder when communicating with bigger name players.

[grep]

I think there will be some tweaking of morale in a forthcoming update ( I hate the word patch I don't think it's relevant any more all software updates itself ) and also managers with low world reputation will find life harder when communicating with bigger name players.

It sounds promising, much appreciated.

[19052000]

I haven't had the chance to get my teeth into the game yet, but I just wonder how many if the "too easy" brigade have managed to take a Scots Divison 3 team to the Champions League?

[lee_uk]

hopefully save game compatible too

[Sharpy07]

hopefully save game compatible too

They always are

[Casual]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

These two screenshots show my total domination with Napoli in the first season. I used tactics with four defenders, MC, ML, MR, AMC, AMC and FC, control, fluid and work the ball into box. I shuffled the team from match to match, sometimes playing with 5-6 newly bought players (which are not world class players btw) and they played like they knew each other for a long time as you can see by the results.

I easily won all of my away matches that are supposed to be hard, like Palermo, Lazio, Fiorentina or whatever, which implies to me that the home ground advantage doesn't even exist, or maybe I'm too blind to notice it.

I want a challenge that suits the team that I choose. Napoli might have a good squad but this is really too easy. I didn't break a sweat to achieve 10 points advantage, in front of great teams like Juve, Inter, Milan... I didn't try to beat them in derbies, but I did so very easily. I used the simple technique called "choose & play".

Now I beg you Sports Interactive, please do something to make the game experience worth the money I paid.

[shirajzl]

I think there will be some tweaking of morale in a forthcoming update ( I hate the word patch I don't think it's relevant any more all software updates itself ) and also managers with low world reputation will find life harder when communicating with bigger name players.

I bet you the value of FM13 there'll be a thread "FM 12 is now too difficult, sort it out SI, you're ruined the fun" as soon as you introduce any changes towards more game difficulty.

[BiggusD]

I am breezing through the lower leagues with Bradford, but I expect that I need a few seasons in Premier League to get into Champions League and then win it. If I manage to go straight up and win it first season in PL, then I would have to conclude that the game is too easy.

I did that with Southampton in FM10 but that is two years ago - the AI should have improved enough to keep pace with the human managers in that time. If it hasn't, that isn't good enough.

So far, many aspects of FM has been improved in FM12 and that is good of course. The AI is by far the most important aspect and it seems to have stagnated a bit the last years. It seem to me like the AI managers and board room members aren't using the tools at their (and our) disposal and thus are at a huge disadvantage. My minimum expectation is that the best managers in the real life world are good managers in the game. They are not.

No human manager should be -better- at man management, motivation and player development than Sir Alex Ferguson, and no human manager should be better than Mourinho at tactics. That must be the goal for SI's programmers.

[Candre168]

I thought the game was very easy judging by how I was flying through teams with my Serie C2B side.

Then I started a Panathinaikos save, and literally got smashed in the league. I started a new one, and got smashed again (using downloaded tactics)

[KUBI]

I thought the game was very easy judging by how I was flying through teams with my Serie C2B side.

Then I started a Panathinaikos save, and literally got smashed in the league. I started a new one, and got smashed again (using downloaded tactics)

That's what it makes that difficult to understand which factors do make the game for some people in some leagues looking that easy, while sometimes the same people are struggling in another league.

[Candre168]

That's what it makes that difficult to understand which factors do make the game for some people in some leagues looking that easy, while sometimes the same people are struggling in another league.

But I mean, in previous versions, I'd just sign two good South American wingers with pace + flair and that would destroy the rest of the league in unrealistic manners. Whereas this year, I signed (on both saves) several good players and I was slaughtered. I'd concede two goals a game easily (in Greece...that's saying something) even when using downloaded tactics. Pissed me off to be honest.

Very interested in finding out what factors really come into play to decide whether your team performs or not. My players were on high morale.

Whereas with Milazzo, I signed no one, had poor morale, and smashed everyone up to Serie B.

[PaulC]

Casual, are you able to upload your save?

[shirajzl]

But I mean, in previous versions, I'd just sign two good South American wingers with pace + flair and that would destroy the rest of the league in unrealistic manners. Whereas this year, I signed (on both saves) several good players and I was slaughtered. I'd concede two goals a game easily (in Greece...that's saying something) even when using downloaded tactics. Pissed me off to be honest.

Very interested in finding out what factors really come into play to decide whether your team performs or not. My players were on high morale.

Whereas with Milazzo, I signed no one, had poor morale, and smashed everyone up to Serie B.

Judging my many posts in this thread, it seems that the less you tinker with tactics, the more successful you'll be.

[Casual]

Casual, are you able to upload your save?

Here you go Paul :

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9ub5ke

[Erimus1876]

The team tactical attributes are more for who they hire I believe.

Could you find out for definite if thats the case because some of us have edited team tactical attributes and are seeing an improvement in difficulty. Although its all subjective of course and a million other factors could be the cause!

Cheers

[jase19]

i guess i just suck, because i've managed to buy players like neymar, diarra, khedira, and a few other quality players with liverpool and i've won the league once in 5 years.... well i'm in my 5th year now. i might win it this year, as i've got a 6 point lead in the january window. 1 fa cup, 1 champions league. overall yeah, that would be fantastic.. but it's nowhere near the success you guys are gloating about... and i'm not just sitting here hitting continue and and watching tv... just really makes me wonder.... especially with how many people have ticked "The difficulty is about right."

[PaulC]

Could you find out for definite if thats the case because some of us have edited team tactical attributes and are seeing an improvement in difficulty. Although its all subjective of course and a million other factors could be the cause!

Cheers

I know for sure that changing team tactical settings won't affect difficulty to any noticeable degree.

[Matej]

i guess i just suck, because i've managed to buy players like neymar, diarra, khedira, shawcross, and a few other quality players with liverpool and i've won the league once in 5 years.... well i'm in my 5th year now. i might win it this year, as i've got a 6 point lead in the january window. 1 fa cup, 1 champions league. overall yeah, that would be fantastic.. but it's nowhere near the success you guys are gloating about... and i'm not just sitting here hitting continue and and watching tv... just really makes me wonder.... especially with how many people have ticked "The difficulty is about right."

Well, you must know that you are manager in best league in the world. Many great clubs, etc. But if you are manager in lets say Serie A, Bundesliga and other good leagues, you would be first easy in 2 years, whatever club you take. Well, be happy with your results, at least you have some challenge. I didnt play this year in premiership, but in FM 11 i played with EVerton and I won league 5 times in 6 years. With EVerton!!!

[hatmab123]

I haven't had the chance to get my teeth into the game yet, but I just wonder how many if the "too easy" brigade have managed to take a Scots Divison 3 team to the Champions League?

A good point and a challenge that I am going to try! I have just started a game as Clyde in Scottish Division 3.

I have downloaded a set of tactics that I used in FM11, will not sign anybody in my first season and see what happens...

Might not get to far through the game this week, but I am interested to see if what you ask is possible.

[jase19]

A good point and a challenge that I am going to try! I have just started a game as Clyde in Scottish Division 3.

I have downloaded a set of tactics that I used in FM11, will not sign anybody in my first season and see what happens...

Might not get to far through the game this week, but I am interested to see if what you ask is possible.

why not make your own tactics..............

[hatmab123]

why not make your own tactics..............

Because I am curious to see if there is any big difference in the performance of the same tactics from FM11 to FM12.

I have used these tactics before and know how they performed in last years game - and anyway, whatever tactics I use I shouldn't be able to get Clyde into the Champions League at all really should I?

[jase19]

Because I am curious to see if there is any big difference in the performance of the same tactics from FM11 to FM12.

I have used these tactics before and know how they performed in last years game - and anyway, whatever tactics I use I shouldn't be able to get Clyde into the Champions League at all really should I?

ah i see what you're getting at.

and with clyde, i guess it depends how long you play. in 4-5 years, obviously not. but it is possible to build up a lower league team, people have done it before, in every fm.

in that 2075 thread, the AI got barnet to the premiership... they're predicted to be 24th in L2 in 2011/12 season, and they've been a constant bs/l2 club... so you never know

[hatmab123]

ah i see what you're getting at.

and with clyde, i guess it depends how long you play. in 4-5 years, obviously not. but it is possible to build up a lower league team, people have done it before, in every fm.

in that 2075 thread, the AI got barnet to the premiership... they're predicted to be 24th in L2 in 2011/12 season, and they've been a constant bs/l2 club... so you never know

Small update - first 3 games and lost them all!!! LOL - maybe I am wrong who knows!

[jase19]

Small update - first 3 games and lost them all!!! LOL - maybe I am wrong who knows!

for me the first ones are always hardest... getting used to tactics, match fitness....

plus everyone of the too easy brigade seems to be saying that the default tactics are a big part of the winning?

[hatmab123]

Agreed - and I am a fully paid up member of the "too easy brigade"!!!

I simply want to see what I can do with very little input into the game other than a set of tactics.

Just won a friendly 2-0!!! Things are looking up...

[phnompenhandy]

I know for sure that changing team tactical settings won't affect difficulty to any noticeable degree.

To be fair, Erimus is conducting some very impressive tests (link above - thread moved to Editors forum: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/285126-Possible-solutions-to-the-apparent-easiness-of-FM12) which really do appear to indicate that they do. Worth a look, honestly.

[PaulC]

To be fair, Erimus is conducting some very impressive tests (link above - thread moved to Editors forum: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/285126-Possible-solutions-to-the-apparent-easiness-of-FM12) which really do appear to indicate that they do. Worth a look, honestly.

I appreciate he is trying to help but the club tendencies arent used so its moot. Besides, you'd need to run hundreds of seasons each way to get anything statistically meaningful.

[bleventozturk]

I thought the game was very easy judging by how I was flying through teams with my Serie C2B side.

Then I started a Panathinaikos save, and literally got smashed in the league. I started a new one, and got smashed again (using downloaded tactics)

Another prrof that it is down to morale/form. If you start the season good, it is very easy to continue winning. If you start bad, very hard to recover.

To be honest, I think what Erismus experienced is pure coincidence, nothing more. First time he tried with Barnet, he started the season good, and he kept being good. Then with the modified DB he started a new season, this time he had a bad start, and kept being bad.

[phnompenhandy]

Another prrof that it is down to morale/form. If you start the season good, it is very easy to continue winning. If you start bad, very hard to recover.

To be honest, I think what Erismus experienced is pure coincidence, nothing more. First time he tried with Barnet, he started the season good, and he kept being good. Then with the modified DB he started a new season, this time he had a bad start, and kept being bad.

Think that one through. WHY did he start well in one and badly in the other? He changed only one key variable.

[Erimus1876]

Another prrof that it is down to morale/form. If you start the season good, it is very easy to continue winning. If you start bad, very hard to recover.

To be honest, I think what Erismus experienced is pure coincidence, nothing more. First time he tried with Barnet, he started the season good, and he kept being good. Then with the modified DB he started a new season, this time he had a bad start, and kept being bad.

It wasn't just one game though, all in all I started 5 saves with the normal SI database and pretty much flew up the tables (with poor teams) using the minimum hands on managerial approach. It shouldn't be like that. I then started 4 saves with edited TA's and each one was much more challenging. Yes its probably down to coincidence since what PaulC says it can't be anything to do with TA's how difficult your match is against the AI. The question is, as phnompenhandy mentioned, why are some saves so easy from the off than others, and with clubs that are predicted to be relegation fodder too? Thats what needs to be answered, but I think its an almost impossible task for SI to pinpoint it. Afaik I, and others who are experiencing it, are doing nothing different to any other player whose save IS challenging. :confused:

[KUBI]

Afaik I, and others who are experiencing it, are doing nothing different to any other player whose save IS challenging. :confused:

It could be something you did not think about. When you start a new save there are some variables which could be different. Managers nationality, age, past experience, the club you choose. Such issues are very complicated to debug and test, just as a example, you would have to manage every club in a division with the same manager set-up to have an idea, if there is something wrong in general or just when you are managing some specific clubs.

[Erimus1876]

It could be something you did not think about. When you start a new save there are some variables which could be different. Managers nationality, age, past experience, the club you choose. Such issues are very complicated to debug and test, just as a example, you would have to manage every club in a division with the same manager set-up to have an idea, if there is something wrong in general or just when you are managing some specific clubs.

Yes it could be anything. But the big problem that is being over looked is it shouldn't be so easy when all you're doing it picking the starting 11, using a default tactic, and using shouts during a match then going on long unbeaten runs with the worst teams in the league... I should have to devise strategies and tactics, talk to my players, train my players and wheel and deal in the transfer market to get a team like Barnet pushing for promotion. Its like playing Football Spectator and not Football Manager at times. I'm not the only one, there are plenty in this thread who have experienced the exact same thing.

Anyway, I'm going back to using the original unedited DB without modified TA's and hope I finally get a save going where the easiness feature/bug/quirk doesn't kick in from the off

[hatmab123]

The funniest thing I managed to achieve so far was in my (previous) Rangers save, where I played every player out of position and went on a 3 match unbeaten run!

I had Kirk Broadfoot (DR/C) in goal, with my 2nd choice Keeper Neil Alexander at right back, 41 year old David Weir up front and every other player coloured red in the positional ability section.

First game I drew 1-1 with Inverness away, game 2 won 3-2 against Dundee in the Scottish Cup (David Weir scored 2 as a striker and covered the most ground on the pitch at 41 years old!!!), and in the third game I beat Hearts 2-0 (again a brace from David Weir and a man of the match performance as a striker!!!)

At this point I laughed out loud - particularly at David Weir's spectacular 2nd goal in the Hearts match. Anyone who has seen David Weir hit a shot will understand why I laughed!

The funny thing was that after the Hearts match (in the league), I then had them in the following match in the League Cup Final. I played that match using my first eleven all in their correct positions, but only won by a single goal to nil!!!

Conclusion - you can play all players out of position and still win some matches. Quite funny really.

Try it yourselves - play everyone out of position and see what happens.

[speedas]

The funniest thing I managed to achieve so far was in my (previous) Rangers save, where I played every player out of position and went on a 3 match unbeaten run!

I had Kirk Broadfoot (DR/C) in goal, with my 2nd choice Keeper Neil Alexander at right back, 41 year old David Weir up front and every other player coloured red in the positional ability section.

First game I drew 1-1 with Inverness away, game 2 won 3-2 against Dundee in the Scottish Cup (David Weir scored 2 as a striker and covered the most ground on the pitch at 41 years old!!!), and in the third game I beat Hearts 2-0 (again a brace from David Weir and a man of the match performance as a striker!!!)

At this point I laughed out loud - particularly at David Weir's spectacular 2nd goal in the Hearts match. Anyone who has seen David Weir hit a shot will understand why I laughed!

The funny thing was that after the Hearts match (in the league), I then had them in the following match in the League Cup Final. I played that match using my first eleven all in their correct positions, but only won by a single goal to nil!!!

Conclusion - you can play all players out of position and still win some matches. Quite funny really.

Try it yourselves - play everyone out of position and see what happens.

Haha, please post screens

[hatmab123]

Deleted the game already :o or I would be glad to. I will try and repeat a similar feat and post what I achieve!

EDIT...

What is the best way of posting screenshots? I am a screenie virgin!:o

[bleventozturk]

It wasn't just one game though, all in all I started 5 saves with the normal SI database and pretty much flew up the tables (with poor teams) using the minimum hands on managerial approach. It shouldn't be like that. I then started 4 saves with edited TA's and each one was much more challenging. Yes its probably down to coincidence since what PaulC says it can't be anything to do with TA's how difficult your match is against the AI. The question is, as phnompenhandy mentioned, why are some saves so easy from the off than others, and with clubs that are predicted to be relegation fodder too? Thats what needs to be answered, but I think its an almost impossible task for SI to pinpoint it. Afaik I, and others who are experiencing it, are doing nothing different to any other player whose save IS challenging. :confused:

Very simple. In your very first game the morale is balanced between your team and the opponent. There are many other factors going into ME, and in your first (and maybe only completely fair) match you can always win, draw or lose, right? If you win that game, your get an unrealistic morale boost, you carry it to your second match, and if your second opponent has lost their first game, their morale will be down, and you won't have much dificulty in beating them. So now your morale will be even higher, and it goes on and on. If you lose your first few games, it is a similar (but opposite) story, and this time you really struggle.

Morale/form seem to be unfortunately the most effective thing in your matches in my experience. When you have a very high morale, try putting your worst line ups in your team, play your guys out of position, etc., if you play against a team with a low morale, you will still win. The only time you will lose will be when you finally face a team that has a winning streak and high morale just like you. This game is all about long streaks right now. Hopefully what PaulC tweaked will help to cut those streaks shorter and we will have a more realistic game.

[BiggusD]

Very simple. In your very first game the morale is balanced between your team and the opponent. There are many other factors going into ME, and in your first (and maybe only completely fair) match you can always win, draw or lose, right? If you win that game, your get an unrealistic morale boost, you carry it to your second match, and if your second opponent has lost their first game, their morale will be down, and you won't have much dificulty in beating them. So now your morale will be even higher, and it goes on and on. If you lose your first few games, it is a similar (but opposite) story, and this time you really struggle.

Morale/form seem to be unfortunately the most effective thing in your matches in my experience. When you have a very high morale, try putting your worst line ups in your team, play your guys out of position, etc., if you play against a team with a low morale, you will still win. The only time you will lose will be when you finally face a team that has a winning streak and high morale just like you. This game is all about long streaks right now. Hopefully what PaulC tweaked will help to cut those streaks shorter and we will have a more realistic game.

I am afraid that the only way to stop good morale from being so extraordinary important is to make sure that achieving and maintaining a very good or very poor morale is almost impossible.

If Abysmal is 10 and Superb 100, a win + a successful praise/post-match team talk will give at least +10 "morale points" to a player. Speculating further, 100 morale equals 100% of CA, so OK morale = 50% efficiency, much like condition and match fitness. I really do think that morale is that essential but I expect SI to refute this.

This is of course in layman's terms but what I believe needs to be done is to reduce that +10 "bonus" to +1 instead, for all teams, and the same with "penalties" for losses and other negative experiences. It should be impossible to maintain Very Good and Superb morale for more than a few weeks tops, and those should only be available when the team has won a trophy or crushed a fierce rival or something like that - special events... not by saying "well done lads" or "you have been in good form lately, keep it up!".

[DIJRP]

Season 2

Yeah, "difficulty is about right" ...

Are u sure match engine works well ??? ... 0-4 after 45 min ...

[bleventozturk]

I am afraid that the only way to stop good morale from being so extraordinary important is to make sure that achieving and maintaining a very good or very poor morale is almost impossible.

If Abysmal is 10 and Superb 100, a win + a successful praise/post-match team talk will give at least +10 "morale points" to a player. Speculating further, 100 morale equals 100% of CA, so OK morale = 50% efficiency, much like condition and match fitness. I really do think that morale is that essential but I expect SI to refute this.

This is of course in layman's terms but what I believe needs to be done is to reduce that +10 "bonus" to +1 instead, for all teams, and the same with "penalties" for losses and other negative experiences. It should be impossible to maintain Very Good and Superb morale for more than a few weeks tops, and those should only be available when the team has won a trophy or crushed a fierce rival or something like that - special events... not by saying "well done lads" or "you have been in good form lately, keep it up!".

Agreed 100%.

[Erimus1876]

• 
  

• 
  

Very simple. In your very first game the morale is balanced between your team and the opponent. There are many other factors going into ME, and in your first (and maybe only completely fair) match you can always win, draw or lose, right? If you win that game, your get an unrealistic morale boost, you carry it to your second match, and if your second opponent has lost their first game, their morale will be down, and you won't have much dificulty in beating them. So now your morale will be even higher, and it goes on and on. If you lose your first few games, it is a similar (but opposite) story, and this time you really struggle.

Morale/form seem to be unfortunately the most effective thing in your matches in my experience. When you have a very high morale, try putting your worst line ups in your team, play your guys out of position, etc., if you play against a team with a low morale, you will still win. The only time you will lose will be when you finally face a team that has a winning streak and high morale just like you. This game is all about long streaks right now. Hopefully what PaulC tweaked will help to cut those streaks shorter and we will have a more realistic game.

I totally agree. It all boils down to an overpowered morale system. This was always the case as it was last year, although not as bad apparently. Messing with TA's was an idea to try to bring a semblence of balance back in other ways.

But yes, having Superb Morale seems to....

• Render Teamtalks useless - unless you deliberately use them to **** your players off to get a better challenge (but according to SI, TT's have little effect anyway!).
  
• Negate the need to make your own tacics and devise your own strategies - default ones will destroy the opposition more often or not if morale is high.
  
• Superb morale with a bunch of crap players predicted to be relegated will see them go on amazing unbeaten runs, and be title challengers if you keep it superb long enough. So why bother with the transfer market?
  
• And there's pretty much no need to use match prep. if morale is high, its effect again seems negligible.
  

In all the easy saves I payed I basically skipped all of the above and still massivly overachieved.. because morale was maintained (by long winning streaks, few losses) right from the kick off.

Basically one feature that is too easy to get to its highest state of superb, and keep it there, renders almost every other managerial feature moot in FM12.

[PaulC]

I agree that the 'shelf life' of the extremes of morale is too long, and this is being toned down for an update.

[Casual]

I also feel that "settling in" of new players is not so important like before if you bring in 5-6 new faces and try to rush them to play all together in the first 11- you'll end up losing games. The home ground advantage also seems to be trivial and it certainly shouldn't since it's always been one of the most important factors in football.

If you try to tone up these factors along with decreasing the team talk effect, maybe we'll get somewhere...

[SeanNUFC]

I agree that the 'shelf life' of the extremes of morale is too long, and this is being toned down for an update.

Good to know. Hopefully it'll be more like fm should be after the update.

[Erimus1876]

I agree that the 'shelf life' of the extremes of morale is too long, and this is being toned down for an update.

This is good news.

Unless its already like this, maybe the amount of morale gained from beating a team much worse than yourself should be lowered too. Similarly if you lose 0-4 away to Man City in the cup as a lower league team, it shouldn't destroy morale either since it was expected.

[stf1979]

Too easy!

this is not my save.. I saw in other forum but they don't complain.. strange..

I started a new game unemployed with 'automatic' experience, and in November accepted Darlington offer.. I never switch any tactic and now i have 5 wins in 5 games only pressing continue..

[phnompenhandy]

I agree that the 'shelf life' of the extremes of morale is too long, and this is being toned down for an update.

For us here that is great news, but oh boy, just wait for the torrent of complaints that the update has ruined peoples' games by making it too hard!

[SeanNUFC]

For us here that is great news, but oh boy, just wait for the torrent of complaints that the update has ruined peoples' games by making it too hard!

We'll all be too busy playing FM to notice!