FM2012 difficulty.

[MarkBGregory]

Maybe we're all just getting better?

[jase19]

i've never been bad. who are you kidding? lol

[SeanNUFC]

Maybe we're all just getting better?

Nope, i've always been **** at it. Well, according to previous versions of the game anyway!

[monkeymatti]

im finding it pretty easy so far but i am playing as barca so its not suprise really , is my first game so just getting used to the new features in fm12 , i did win every competition in my first season but that is pretty much expected to be fair but im going to start a game in lower league soon so im sure the game will be harder , i havn't put too easy in the poll yet as its too early to tell after only playing 1 season on fm12

[bleventozturk]

Its easy to do the Scottish Leagues yourself Just download the database, open your editor and click on Tactical Attributes of the teams you want to improve.

As a guide these are the values I've used for the ones I did...

If it works and I get some positive feedback from people who notice its more of a challenge, I'll put the time in updating as many AI clubs as I can (including Scotland).

Interesting experiment there.

But what do the 'team tactical attributes' really do? I thought every team plays according to how their AI manager wants them to play. And AI managers have their individual tactical attributes which differ from the 'team tactical attributes'. So, for example if you change a team's attacking attribute from 15 to 20, does it make them a better attacking team? How long does the effect last? Are these attributes dynamic in the game?

Can somebdoy explain all these a little better?

[Erimus1876]

I don't really understand, you put the same attributes for each national manager in your test ? Why change neutral tactical attributes ?

Interesting experiment there.

But what do the 'team tactical attributes' really do? I thought every team plays according to how their AI manager wants them to play. And AI managers have their individual tactical attributes which differ from the 'team tactical attributes'. So, for example if you change a team's attacking attribute from 15 to 20, does it make them a better attacking team? How long does the effect last? Are these attributes dynamic in the game?

Can somebdoy explain all these a little better?

I'm not sure if they're quantitative numbers, meaning the higher the number the better the team is in that category, or if they instead represent a sliding scale of tendency, with 10 being the middle, and 1 and 20 the far extremes of little tendancy to full tendancy.

If they're tendancies then it doesn't make much sense since surely its the managers tactical attributes that should dictate how a team plays and there would be no use in having these numbers in game. If they're quantitative numbers then perhaps they're a 'base level' and a managers attributes would then add to them, enhancing them even further? I'm not 100% sure. SI labeling them Tactical Attributes, and not Tactical Tendancies, makes me think they're quantitative and have little to do with AI managers individual tactical attributes except acting as 'enhancers'.

This post was one of the ones that got me thinking TA's could be one of the causes of the easy games people are experiencing:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/284254-Let-s-figure-this-out..-I-think-I-m-onto-something

Also if they're tendancies and the game *is* tougher with the values I used in my initial test game, that could suggest the match engine is not very good at certain tendancies (styles of play) than it is with others. Not a good sign imho as it should be equally as good at all styles.

As far as I know they are fixed and do not change once your game starts. However, if they are dynamic and change from season to season this could explain "second season syndrome" were sometimes you have a much tougher 2nd season after dominating your first (I'm not convinced the AI 'learns' your tactic as some people suggest as being the cause of 2nd season syndrome - not convinced at all).

[FestyF]

Very interesting experiment going on here. Looks promising. If we can clarify the effects of these tactical attributes, we may well be onto something. Thanks Erimus1876.

[lee_uk]

very interesting...pls keep us updated Erimus1876 with how yr doing and also anyone else trying this out.im gonna hold off using it for now until theres more feedback.

[Erimus1876]

very interesting...pls keep us updated Erimus1876 with how yr doing and also anyone else trying this out.im gonna hold off using it for now until theres more feedback.

So far so good.

Played 3.

Lost 3.

:D:D

[grep]

I am glad to see how much passion FM fans are putting into one their favorite game, please SI take into consideration also this aspect, it should lead to a wise thinking before throwing so many fans out of the boat with a sarcastic smile.

Thx

[hagakure]

1/3 of the custemers on the official forum thinks the game is too easy. Its too much. Imagine if it was some other related problem, it woud couse big trouble for SI. 1/3 of the custemers not beeing pleased with the product is not good. You have to take the resaults for what they are. Saying that there are many thousands people out there that didnt wote its not a good answer. This is a official forum for FM 2012.

[lee_uk]

would like some official comment regarding what Erimus1876 has done....seems like hes done a great job to me.

[stf1979]

1/3 of the custemers on the official forum thinks the game is too easy. Its too much. Imagine if it was some other related problem, it woud couse big trouble for SI. 1/3 of the custemers not beeing pleased with the product is not good. You have to take the resaults for what they are. Saying that there are many thousands people out there that didnt wote its not a good answer. This is a official forum for FM 2012.

We have paid a game not for a winning program. We are still waiting the fix if they want costumers happy.

[FestyF]

so far so good.

Played 3.

Lost 3.

:D

Cheers !!

[stf1979]

So far so good.

Played 3.

Lost 3.

:D:D

Have you played with normal tactics ?

[grep]

Now, the game doesn't need to go against the remaining 2/3, it would be enough if SI left the game as it is and it released an hardcore option to flag as option to allow 1/3 of customers to have the game not so easy and all of a sudden 100% of customers would have the game as they like.

Please SI chime in to tell what's your intentions.

Thank in advance

P.S. many compliments to the straodinary guys of this community working on this issue by themselves, much appreciated indeed !

[lee_uk]

all seems quiet on the SI front regarding this?

[hagakure]

I dont think SI wil do anything about this. They have made FM 2012 easier to get in to for new players and its obivius that this version is made to include football fans that dont have much or any experiance with football manager series. The FM 2012 is made for much broader audience. Its a business strategy. The game is not broken, it works as intended. If the sale numbers are good (and I think they are) SI doesnt have to make any changes to game difficulity.

They wil see how the fans react on this year version and wil make some changes according to that in FM 2013. End of story.

[lee_uk]

id just like SI to comment on if changing the above attributes done by Erimus1876 does actually increase the difficulty.

[Super Bladesman]

PaulC has already commented in this thread twice, so it's safe to assume that SI are well aware of the points being made. It's not something that they're going to investigate and fix, if necessary, overnight.

[Kriss]

all seems quiet on the SI front regarding this?

You'll need some patience, it's not being ignored but there are a lot of avenues to explore and they won't comment until they have something to say.

It would be useful if people could keep saves where it seems a team has overwhelmingly over achieved so they can call on them if need be, I don't say they will but it's possible.

Also remember Beta testing doesn't stop once the game is released so they have other sources of information on possible issues like this.

[Erimus1876]

Have you played with normal tactics ?

Yes, just the default 4-4-2 and 5-3-2, I'm going to resist using my own tactics and teamtalks until the half way point in the season, then see if using player made tactics and TT's makes a difference in the remaining fixtures.

[lee_uk]

well,im gonna start a new career game using Erimus1876 experimental changes.

he seems to have done a good job and many thanks

[lee_uk]

how is your career game going then Erimus?..have you played much more?

[Erimus1876]

id just like SI to comment on if changing the above attributes done by Erimus1876 does actually increase the difficulty.

You could download the database I linked and give it a try yourself. A few people already have, just waiting for some feedback

[KUBI]

Now, the game doesn't need to go against the remaining 2/3, it would be enough if SI left the game as it is and it released an hardcore option to flag as option to allow 1/3 of customers to have the game not so easy and all of a sudden 100% of customers would have the game as they like.

That would not make much sense. If there is something wrong, which could be fixed or adjusted, than there will be probably a patch for it. What you suggest is something that would need additional coding and testing just for a few hundred people. Such "options" could make the game a nightmare, because what works for a view matches or even a season could destroy a long term save. That's the major problem with all kind of "difficulty levels", it increases the possibility of new bugs and issues and fixing those issues could destroy the general game play. It's easy to demand, but next to impossible to deliver in a few weeks or even months.

[Erimus1876]

how is your career game going then Erimus?..have you played much more?

Only played 3 so far. Hopefully get to play a few more games sometime today.

[stf1979]

I'll try later Erimus1876. thank tou

Why don't SI fix this?

[grep]

I dont think SI wil do anything about this. They have made FM 2012 easier to get in to for new players and its obivius that this version is made to include football fans that dont have much or any experiance with football manager series. The FM 2012 is made for much broader audience. Its a business strategy. The game is not broken, it works as intended. If the sale numbers are good (and I think they are) SI doesnt have to make any changes to game difficulity.

They wil see how the fans react on this year version and wil make some changes according to that in FM 2013. End of story.

I agree with your statement 100%.

Anyway this does not prevent fans from complaining, even if we represent " only " 30% of the customers.

[Tubbs]

I agree with your statement 100%.

Anyway this does not prevent fans from complaining, even if we represent " only " 30% of the customers.

NO !! You represent 30% of respondents to ONE poll on ONE forum.

You do not represent 30% of customers who have bought and played FM12.

How many people (mods included) need to tell you to moderate your posting style before you will actually listen ?

[KUBI]

I'll try later Erimus1876. thank tou

Why don't SI fix this?

Because nobody knows at the moment, that there is something to fix? It's all speculating and before you start fixing, you should have a clue what's wrong.

[Kriss]

I dont think SI wil do anything about this. They have made FM 2012 easier to get in to for new players and its obivius that this version is made to include football fans that dont have much or any experiance with football manager series. The FM 2012 is made for much broader audience. Its a business strategy. The game is not broken, it works as intended. If the sale numbers are good (and I think they are) SI doesnt have to make any changes to game difficulity.

They wil see how the fans react on this year version and wil make some changes according to that in FM 2013. End of story.

That is your conclusion, it is completely inaccurate, if the game has somehow become easier it wasn't done intentionally, we all love conspiracy theories:) but there is no conspiracy here.

The one thing they never need do is make it easier because those who find it too hard have plenty of options to change that.

[x42bn6]

NO !! You represent 30% of respondents to ONE poll on ONE forum.

You do not represent 30% of customers who have bought and played FM12.

I'm not sure what is wrong with a single poll... Multiple polls are generally useful for extremely large samples, but those are in the millions and for things that have huge levels of problems with things like bias (i.e. election polls). For a video game? One poll is often useful enough.

Fun fact: For a population of 800,000 (FM11 sold around 690,000 copies if I recall... This assumes that Sega have sold more copies this season and all at once, a very very optimistic approximation, but this just stresses the point), 95% confidence at +/- 5% error requires a sample size of 384.

http://www.nss.gov.au/nss/home.nsf/pages/Sample+size+calculator?OpenDocument (enter 95%, 800,000, blank, 0.05, hit Calculate)

That's right - this poll satistifies the sample size requirement quite easily. It's not too far off the 99% level, too!

Secondly, every poll is restricted to people who actually answer the poll (obviously). This is always going to be a problem with every single poll, not this one, so the point is somewhat moot. It's moot because polls only sample a population rather than poll the entire population, because the latter is of course very difficult.

So the only question is whether the forum is representative of all users of the software... That's an interesting open question and requires some information outside of this forum, but in the absence of any information in either viewpoint, we should simply ignore it.

So, to me, the poll shows it is 95% certain that around 30.6% (+/- 5%) of users find the game too easy. The question whether the forum is representative or not is an intriguing one but this is a problem across every single poll out there, yet nearly all polls are actually useful.

And as another fun fact - if a poll is well-designed, a sample size of a couple of thousand Chinese citizens can accurately be justified over China's entire population. A couple of thousand representing over a billion people. Amazing, eh?

[SeanNUFC]

^well said!!!

SI take note.

[Govnar1]

I'm not sure what is wrong with a single poll... Multiple polls are generally useful for extremely large samples, but those are in the millions and for things that have huge levels of problems with things like bias (i.e. election polls). For a video game? One poll is often useful enough.

Fun fact: For a population of 800,000 (FM11 sold around 690,000 copies if I recall... This assumes that Sega have sold more copies this season and all at once, a very very optimistic approximation, but this just stresses the point), 95% confidence at +/- 5% error requires a sample size of 384.

http://www.nss.gov.au/nss/home.nsf/pages/Sample+size+calculator?OpenDocument (enter 95%, 800,000, blank, 0.05, hit Calculate)

That's right - this poll satistifies the sample size requirement quite easily. It's not too far off the 99% level, too!

Secondly, every poll is restricted to people who actually answer the poll (obviously). This is always going to be a problem with every single poll, not this one, so the point is somewhat moot. It's moot because polls only sample a population rather than poll the entire population, because the latter is of course very difficult.

So the only question is whether the forum is representative of all users of the software... That's an interesting open question and requires some information outside of this forum, but in the absence of any information in either viewpoint, we should simply ignore it.

So, to me, the poll shows it is 95% certain that around 30.6% (+/- 5%) of users find the game too easy. The question whether the forum is representative or not is an intriguing one but this is a problem across every single poll out there, yet nearly all polls are actually useful.

[Tubbs]

I'm not sure what is wrong with a single poll... Multiple polls are generally useful for extremely large samples, but those are in the millions and for things that have huge levels of problems with things like bias (i.e. election polls). For a video game? One poll is often useful enough.

Fun fact: For a population of 800,000 (FM11 sold around 690,000 copies if I recall... This assumes that Sega have sold more copies this season and all at once, a very very optimistic approximation, but this just stresses the point), 95% confidence at +/- 5% error requires a sample size of 384.

http://www.nss.gov.au/nss/home.nsf/pages/Sample+size+calculator?OpenDocument (enter 95%, 800,000, blank, 0.05, hit Calculate)

That's right - this poll satistifies the sample size requirement quite easily. It's not too far off the 99% level, too!

Secondly, every poll is restricted to people who actually answer the poll (obviously). This is always going to be a problem with every single poll, not this one, so the point is somewhat moot. It's moot because polls only sample a population rather than poll the entire population, because the latter is of course very difficult.

So the only question is whether the forum is representative of all users of the software... That's an interesting open question and requires some information outside of this forum, but in the absence of any information in either viewpoint, we should simply ignore it.

So, to me, the poll shows it is 95% certain that around 30.6% (+/- 5%) of users find the game too easy. The question whether the forum is representative or not is an intriguing one but this is a problem across every single poll out there, yet nearly all polls are actually useful.

And as another fun fact - if a poll is well-designed, a sample size of a couple of thousand Chinese citizens can accurately be justified over China's entire population. A couple of thousand representing over a billion people. Amazing, eh?

Yeah...Amazing !!!!

[stf1979]

well said x42bn6

[Kriss]

I'm not sure what is wrong with a single poll... Multiple polls are generally useful for extremely large samples, but those are in the millions and for things that have huge levels of problems with things like bias (i.e. election polls). For a video game? One poll is often useful enough.

Fun fact: For a population of 800,000 (FM11 sold around 690,000 copies if I recall... This assumes that Sega have sold more copies this season and all at once, a very very optimistic approximation, but this just stresses the point), 95% confidence at +/- 5% error requires a sample size of 384.

http://www.nss.gov.au/nss/home.nsf/pages/Sample+size+calculator?OpenDocument (enter 95%, 800,000, blank, 0.05, hit Calculate)

That's right - this poll satistifies the sample size requirement quite easily. It's not too far off the 99% level, too!

Secondly, every poll is restricted to people who actually answer the poll (obviously). This is always going to be a problem with every single poll, not this one, so the point is somewhat moot. It's moot because polls only sample a population rather than poll the entire population, because the latter is of course very difficult.

So the only question is whether the forum is representative of all users of the software... That's an interesting open question and requires some information outside of this forum, but in the absence of any information in either viewpoint, we should simply ignore it.

So, to me, the poll shows it is 95% certain that around 30.6% (+/- 5%) of users find the game too easy. The question whether the forum is representative or not is an intriguing one but this is a problem across every single poll out there, yet nearly all polls are actually useful.

But this is a poll not a referendum, so you can't quantify whether or not those who find it easier are more likely to bother voting than those who don't, I know we're getting into semantics here and numbers can be interpreted just about anyway you care to do so but I actually think using this poll is just a distraction.

What matters is that those who claim it's too easy produce verifiable evidence which can be investigated, although that's not being called for yet as SI can already institute investigations based on what's been pointed up thus far.

As somebody already said even if it's proved to be an issue a fix would likely be a long time coming dependant on causality.

[x42bn6]

But this is a poll not a referendum, so you can't quantify whether or not those who find it easier are more likely to bother voting than those who don't, I know we're getting into semantics here and numbers can be interpreted just about anyway you care to do so but I actually think using this poll is just a distraction.

It doesn't matter. Do you have any evidence to suggest that users who find it easier are more likely to vote?

If anything, I think it's possibly the opposite, given the popularity of this thread and the breadth of users who are suggesting it is easy.

I don't think this poll is a distraction. It shows a large proportion of SI's userbase finds the game too easy for their tastes.

Otherwise you could shoot down every single opinion-based poll posted in this forum, even if everyone voted against SI's interests in that poll, "because those who vote SI don't have strong opinions"/"it's just a FORUM!"/"it's not big enough for SI's thousands of customers"/etc. Now where the SI who care about customer opinions?

I'm not interpreting numbers any way I care to do so. I'm using a statistical method that nearly every single poll in the world uses.

I could make up a reason like "you can't be sure that aliens haven't brainwashed those who find it easy to vote more aggressively on this poll, therefore it's a distraction", and that would quite rightfully get laughed at. There is little evidence to suggest this at all, and there is little evidence to suggest the opposite, either. In other words, you ignore it. The same goes for "you can't quantify whether or not those who find it easier are more likely to bother voting than those who don't".

What matters is that those who claim it's too easy produce verifiable evidence which can be investigated, although that's not being called for yet as SI can already institute investigations based on what's been pointed up thus far.

It's difficult to do this as "ease" is more subjective than objective.

This poll is perfectly fine as bug evidence.

The same goes for, say, "the text is too small" - it's impossible to quantify what "small" is, but if a lot of users raise this issue, SI should take a look at it. And SI have said they will.

They don't have to worry about objectivity in a subjective issue as much.

[Govnar1]

What matters is that those who claim it's too easy produce verifiable evidence which can be investigated, although that's not being called for yet as SI can already institute investigations based on what's been pointed up thus far.

Why should they stop at a mere investigation? Maybe it would be best that community creates a patch and sends it to SEGA so they can distribute it beck to us?

[Tubbs]

It doesn't matter. Do you have any evidence to suggest that users who find it easier are more likely to vote?

If anything, I think it's possibly the opposite, given the popularity of this thread and the breadth of users who are suggesting it is easy.

I don't think this poll is a distraction. It shows a large proportion of SI's userbase finds the game too easy for their tastes.

Otherwise you could shoot down every single opinion-based poll posted in this forum, even if everyone voted against SI's interests in that poll, "because those who vote SI don't have strong opinions"/"it's just a FORUM!"/"it's not big enough for SI's thousands of customers"/etc. Now where the SI who care about customer opinions?

I'm not interpreting numbers any way I care to do so. I'm using a statistical method that nearly every single poll in the world uses.

I could make up a reason like "you can't be sure that aliens haven't brainwashed those who find it easy to vote more aggressively on this poll, therefore it's a distraction", and that would quite rightfully get laughed at. There is little evidence to suggest this at all, and there is little evidence to suggest the opposite, either. In other words, you ignore it. The same goes for "you can't quantify whether or not those who find it easier are more likely to bother voting than those who don't".

It's difficult to do this as "ease" is more subjective than objective.

This poll is perfectly fine as bug evidence.

The same goes for, say, "the text is too small" - it's impossible to quantify what "small" is, but if a lot of users raise this issue, SI should take a look at it. And SI have said they will.

They don't have to worry about objectivity in a subjective issue as much.

Blimey !!...i hope i never get stuck in a lift with you mate !!

[Kriss]

I think we're actually agreeing:D and ease in the manner it's being described isn't that subjective, there's some consistency in the individual reports that people have made.

What could be very useful is for a group of those who feel it's too easy to each start a save with the same team and using broadly the same methods see if there's any consistency in the results.

I'll leave it to somebody else to suggest a suitable subject team but from what I've seen said probably a Fulham or Wolves would be appropriate?

[Kriss]

Why should they stop at a mere investigation? Maybe it would be best that community creates a patch and sends it to SEGA so they can distribute it beck to us?

Can I have some of what you're taking?

[KUBI]

There is another aspect you have to take into account. If you have a look at that thread:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/231527-Difficulty-Level-on-FM-2011?highlight=FM2011+easy

The same happend already a year ago and probably with every of the last FM releases. If there is an increase of just a few % every year who think the game is easier than last year, you will end-up in higher "to easy" polls.

The important question is, are there some factors in FM2012 that have a (unrealistic) impact on the difficulty of the game or is it just that a lot of users get used and know how the game works.

[Govnar1]

Can I have some of what you're taking?

I apologize for sarcasm in my previous post. I just tried to stress that there is a thick layer of fog (poor manual that describes what in game commands should do in stead of what they actually do) that makes any investigation almost impossible for a person unfamiliar with actual code.

I apologize for poor English, hopefully meaning is not completely lost in translation.

[Hegav]

Won the Champions League final with Chelsea against Real Madrid. 6-0.. Along the way I had freak results like 5-2 against AC Milan, 6-2 against Barcelona(in Camp Nou) and so on. Figured I needed another challenge I wanted to help guide an very disharmonies french squad to World Cup victory. In the end it turned up to be the easiest challenge I've done so far. Not a single loss, scored 25 goals conceded 6. 4-0 in the final against Japan(who had eliminated nations like Chile, Spain, Italy to get to the final).

It's not ment as a brag but god, FM12 is the easiest FM I've played so far. Torres scored a friggin 64 goals, 3 penalties and 23 assist. Agüero 43, 7 pens and 25 assist and I still have a couple of reserve strikers in double figures. Corner exploit not used btw.

[0gris]

If this game is too easy. Why do i constantly struggle to punch above my weight? I don't know why everyone is finding this game very easy, but when i seem to play, i find it to be quite difficult and infact often find myself loosing against better opposition no matter what i do.

[SeanNUFC]

If this game is too easy. Why do i constantly struggle to punch above my weight? I don't know why everyone is finding this game very easy, but when i seem to play, i find it to be quite difficult and infact often find myself loosing against better opposition no matter what i do.

You're probably not doing something we are doing, hard to help without more information.

[Kriss]

If this game is too easy. Why do i constantly struggle to punch above my weight? I don't know why everyone is finding this game very easy, but when i seem to play, i find it to be quite difficult and infact often find myself loosing against better opposition no matter what i do.

If there is an issue it's not affecting everybody and it doesn't happen in every single save game even with the same club, which would mean you have every chance of finding it damned hard (dependant on what if anything causes the issue)

[Kriss]

You're probably not doing something we are doing, hard to help without more information.

More likely would be that the game isn't doing the same thing every time.