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Miles Jacobson

Twittergate (aka FM2010 work in progress screenshot)

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I think the skin looks absolutely fantastic and easy on the eyes. Especially the Fonts are sharp and nice. The highlight colours on player attributes could be clearer though, but I'm sure these small details will be worked closer to release. :)

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I really hate the regular FM2007 skin and I really think i'll dislike the one shown in the prototype just as much. Flex is an outstanding skin for FM09 the dark colours and gradients make it much easier to stay looking at for longer periods of time.

How can you hate the regular FM2007 skin and love the Flex skin? They look more or less the same.

Did you mean the regular FM09 skin?

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I really hate the regular FM2007 skin and I really think i'll dislike the one shown in the prototype just as much. Flex is an outstanding skin for FM09

What an extremely weird thing to say :confused:

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The "it's too white" argument is interesting - if you browse to your favourite web sites or open up your favourite applications, how many have a pale background and how many have a dark background?

Yeah but we don't sit staring at BBC football or MS Word for 12 hours, we do with FM.. have you never tried playing FM08 or 09 with the original skin for a long time like your customers do? It completely burns your eyes out - thats why everyone makes and downloads dark skins..

All we're asking is ship it with 2 skins, 1 light and 1 dark.. surely it wont be hard to do

Also, its interesting you compared it to applications and websites - imho you should try and veer away from it trying to look like Facebook or something.. as the game progresses each year it becomes more time consuming and long winded, making it look less like a game and more like a spreadsheet just makes it "feel" more boring and more like a chore.. a black skin would make it feel like a game

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Guest roberto922
Yeah but we don't sit staring at BBC football or MS Word for 12 hours, we do with FM.. have you never tried playing FM08 or 09 with the original skin for a long time like your customers do? It completely burns your eyes out - thats why everyone makes and downloads dark skins..

I have, doesn't affect me, but then again I take breaks from playing for a few minutes an hour if I'm on a marathon so I'm not staring at it for hours on end, just common sense ;)

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would sega actually be upset about the screenshot being put on the web like this? it strikes me as a really good idea to reveal work-in-progress stuff like this because you can get all the feedback from the community and if someone spots some glaring flaw with it then it can be fixed before any of the features are finalised

That's testers are for. Not doing their jobs if they miss it.

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Does anyone have a link to the screenshot posted somewhere other than Twitter? My work blocks all social networking sites :(

This one should work :thup:

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This one should work :thup:

Excellent, cheers.

Liking the new tabbed look rather than the old menu tree. Allows much more screen space for displaying the important stuff. :thup:

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I think people are missing the point here. There is something controversial about the screenie:

GODFREY ASARE WITH TEAMWORK 16!!!!:eek: You must be joking....;):p

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That's testers are for. Not doing their jobs if they miss it.

Agree with this. There is a large team of paid testers who work directly for SI, and there are also a lot of beta testers from these forums who would normally notice these things.

It is unlikely that something very obvious would be missed with the huge amounts of testing involved.

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Liking the new tabbed look rather than the old menu tree. Allows much more screen space for displaying the important stuff. :thup:

Actually I've never understood why so many new designs contain so much top navigation. Since more or less all new monitors and laptops are widescreen these days, keeping the side menu shouldn't be a problem as most people have more than enough horizontal space. As widescreen monitors have suddenly started moving to 16:9 instead of the 16:10 used so far, we are however currently losing vertical space (1280x800 -> 1366x768, 1680x1050 -> 1600x900, 1920x1200 -> 1920x1080). So, moving more and more items into the fewer and fewer vertical pixels seems strange to me.

It's not just an SI thing though, as for instance Office 2007 added these huge "ribbons" at the top as well, instead of taking advantage of the extra horizontal pixels.

Am I missing some obvious reason for why this is happening?

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Actually I've never understood why so many new designs contain so much top navigation. Since more or less all new monitors and laptops are widescreen these days, keeping the side menu shouldn't be a problem as most people have more than enough horizontal space. As widescreen monitors have suddenly started moving to 16:9 instead of the 16:10 used so far, we are however currently losing vertical space (1280x800 -> 1366x768, 1680x1050 -> 1600x900, 1920x1200 -> 1920x1080). So, moving more and more items into the fewer and fewer vertical pixels seems strange to me.

It's not just an SI thing though, as for instance Office 2007 added these huge "ribbons" at the top as well, instead of taking advantage of the extra horizontal pixels.

Am I missing some obvious reason for why this is happening?

There isn't really any extra vertical space taken up - the menu/icon bars occupy one row where they used to occupy two and the team/player name takes less height, thereby compensating for the calendar bar and the tabs.

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No disrespect to anyone at SI but I really don't care what pale shade the background is or anything like that. As long as it's nothing outrageous we'll all get used to it within a couple of weeks or have the option to change it anyway.

I'd rather SI were discussing key improvements with forum users.

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No disrespect to anyone at SI but I really don't care what pale shade the background is or anything like that. As long as it's nothing outrageous we'll all get used to it within a couple of weeks or have the option to change it anyway.

I'd rather SI were discussing key improvements with forum users.

And that will come further down the line when we announce new features. For now, the only thing you know about the game is the appearance of it and that is the only thing we're going to discuss at the moment.

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Got to say, by FAR the best looking UI I have ever seen on any management simulation ever. Utterly superb. Mixing the simple interface of the classic CM97/98, CM 01/02 with the modern look of the sleekest websites and programs.

Has a sort of iTunes feel to it too - but I can't say exactly what it is that makes me think that!!!

Seriously, top work SI!

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The "it's too white" argument is interesting - if you browse to your favourite web sites or open up your favourite applications, how many have a pale background and how many have a dark background?

And that is a very fair comment. See Google for details!

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And that will come further down the line when we announce new features. For now, the only thing you know about the game is the appearance of it and that is the only thing we're going to discuss at the moment.

No, no, no. That is not what Colorado said. What he said was: "I'd rather SI were discussing key improvements with forum users."

What are you stating is that we waited - like always - for new features, then what you do is simply posting them and we discuss about the features, without any interaction from any of the SI. That is why stopped even reading these forums. And in the end we have to swallow "screw ups" called Press Conference, frequent Injuries, the idiotic Match engine and even feels that transfers are even worse then before (yes I'm the one of that feel that FM09 was the worst game ever released, but that is a personal opinion).

When we try to say that there is too many injuries came down several users saying "there was nothing wrong with it", with the usual follow ups coming down on us that think it is a bug, like we said something appalling, stupid, idiotic and threat us like some sort unwelcome people because we said something bad about the game. Of course there are those who that exceed themselves, but what about us others that try to make something constructive?

There is no absolute discussion of anything between as users and the developers. We are ignored and then comes the squad that say that there is nothing wrong with the game. Like I stated something about the kits not showing and MichaelMorray (i think it was michael) "if you want to see the kits go to the team information." Sorry but I don't waste my time downloading kits for them to stay only in the Team information, just because there was problem between 3d kit and 2 d kit. Laddies and gentleman in my book that is called a bug, minor one at that, but still a bug. Or the people complaining of losing and too many injuries in match, the reply accordingly is always: "The injuries are fine, its like real life." and "It's your tactics." This last one I could smack that someone that said that with freaking mime on his head. When i read one of those I would say. "Well, duh wise guy? I know it my tactics."

To end this, i disagree, with your statement there is no discussion key improvements with the users, you do what you think we want us to have in the game and then we discuss between ourselves if we like or not, with the occasion participation from SI personnel, stating there is no bugs on the game.

PS: Some said about this forums is dedicated to SI games, well what games exactly? The only two that SI have? YUPPIE. Two whole games. I'm so happy. My personal opinion and view of FM games, SI did better job when they had 3 games: FM, the baseball and the Hockey. (sorry but Worldwide soccer it is FM but with different name, so that doesn't count, but if you want to count that makes 4 games), and the forum at the time where far better then now.

PS2: White? The skin is white again? :p

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The screenshot reminds me of FIFA Manager 09 design.

First of all - bright background and styling - just try staring at it for a couple of hours(especially horrible for all-night gamers).

Second - tab-structured information is something new for FM, but not for FIFA Manager.

And last one - the calendar located on top.

I think designers at SI have seen(cribbed) enough from other games.

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PS: Some said about this forums is dedicated to SI games, well what games exactly? The only two that SI have? YUPPIE. Two whole games. I'm so happy. My personal opinion and view of FM games, SI did better job when they had 3 games: FM, the baseball and the Hockey. (sorry but Worldwide soccer it is FM but with different name, so that doesn't count, but if you want to count that makes 4 games), and the forum at the time where far better then now.

No, you're mistaking 'the only two that SI have' with Football Manager 2005, Football Manager 2006, Football Manager 2007, Football Manager 2008, Football Manager 2009, Football Manager 2010 when released, Football Manager Live, Football Manager Handheld, Football Manager Handheld 2007, Football Manager Handheld 2008, Football Manager Handheld 2009, Football Manager Handheld 2010 (when released) and whatever versions of Football Manager they did on the Xbox. All significantly different games. Then, of course, there were the CM games made with Eidos.

I count more than two...

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The screenshot reminds me of FIFA Manager 09 design.

First of all - bright background and styling - just try staring at it for a couple of hours(especially horrible for all-night gamers).

Second - tab-structured information is something new for FM, but not for FIFA Manager.

And last one - the calendar located on top.

I think designers at SI have seen(cribbed) enough from other games.

A lot goes into making sure a game looks nothing like a game from any other company, iirc there are legal people who say what needs to be changed.

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my favourite bit of this is the name "twittergate" original! :p

On a serious note, I think FM09 has been good, and hopefully we can see some good features developed for next year.

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What are you stating is that we waited - like always - for new features, then what you do is simply posting them and we discuss about the features, without any interaction from any of the SI. That is why stopped even reading these forums. And in the end we have to swallow "screw ups" called Press Conference, frequent Injuries, the idiotic Match engine and even feels that transfers are even worse then before (yes I'm the one of that feel that FM09 was the worst game ever released, but that is a personal opinion).

To end this, i disagree, with your statement there is no discussion key improvements with the users, you do what you think we want us to have in the game and then we discuss between ourselves if we like or not, with the occasion participation from SI personnel, stating there is no bugs on the game.

Press Conferences were a feature frequently and enthusiastically proposed by the community. When people heard it was in, they were delighted. Only when a few users became bored with having to do one every five or six matches did people start to think that it wasn't such a great feature after all.

Do you think somebody at SI sat down and said, "hey Paul! This year, why don't we make "frequent injuries" one of our main features!" No!

ME and transfers wouldn't have been improved by a greater level of feedback.

There is much discussion on key features with users. Si play a pretty active role on here- not as much as they apparently used to before either of us joined, but they're hardly invisible. Are there any other games companies where we get such feedback from so many employees?

http://community.sigames.com/tags.php?tag=fm-suggestion

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=24018

Nobody, especially not from SI, has ever claimed that this is a bug free game.

fwiw I also think that 09 was worse than 07... but better than 08.

And that is a very fair comment. See Google for details!

Google? You type a handful of words, press search, and click a link. That's very different to staring at a screen for hours.

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Grade, users that post calm, insightful analysis and criticism are often invited onto the beta testing forums, so they are given ample opportunity to interact directly with the developers and help shape the game.

I can't imagine SI sit in development meetings and say "let's make the match engine less idiotic this year". You need to give them something better to work with if you want them to get more involved with the wider community.

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Unfortunately it is not practical. There are dozens of frames, boxes, toolbars, icons on screen, some of which are made up of nine parts (top left, middle left, bottom left, etc.) so that they can be stretched to the resolution or window size and some, like icons and buttons that have several states (normal, clicked, disabled and so on). To recolour the skin once requires changes to hundreds of items, let alone doing twenty variations.

Even then, simply recolouring a white skin to black won't work as you are going from shadows to highlights. It's a lot of work to redesign.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. It takes some forward planning, like generating the shadows rather than drawing them for example, but if designed with flexibility in mind it's easier in future because you can have just one skin but many looks. Yes, it might be difficult to implement on the base of what SI have now, but if you don't start asking them for things then they'll never change it.

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I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. It takes some forward planning, like generating the shadows rather than drawing them for example, but if designed with flexibility in mind it's easier in future because you can have just one skin but many looks. Yes, it might be difficult to implement on the base of what SI have now, but if you don't start asking them for things then they'll never change it.

That is something for the future. I was answering a point on creating variations of the FM2010 skin.

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No, you're mistaking 'the only two that SI have' with Football Manager 2005, Football Manager 2006, Football Manager 2007, Football Manager 2008, Football Manager 2009, Football Manager 2010 when released, Football Manager Live, Football Manager Handheld, Football Manager Handheld 2007, Football Manager Handheld 2008, Football Manager Handheld 2009, Football Manager Handheld 2010 (when released) and whatever versions of Football Manager they did on the Xbox. All significantly different games. Then, of course, there were the CM games made with Eidos.

I count more than two...

I count at least 12 games, not counting the future release of FM10 that makes 10 games. In those 10 games which ones are still supported by SI? 4 games is the total, which is 3 in those that you counted: FM09 PC, FM09 Mac, FM09 Handheld and FML. The rest is simply are not supported. I asked when FM08 had the subs of English championship pass to 5 to 7 if it was possible for FM07 and someone from SI Moderators team said "No, it was not possible because FM07 was not supported any more". So in this line of view SI have 4 games that support.

I'm sorry for not counting the Handheld and Mac versions.

Press Conferences were a feature frequently and enthusiastically proposed by the community. When people heard it was in, they were delighted. Only when a few users became bored with having to do one every five or six matches did people start to think that it wasn't such a great feature after all.

Do you think somebody at SI sat down and said, "hey Paul! This year, why don't we make "frequent injuries" one of our main features!" No!

ME and transfers wouldn't have been improved by a greater level of feedback.

There is much discussion on key features with users. Si play a pretty active role on here- not as much as they apparently used to before either of us joined, but they're hardly invisible. Are there any other games companies where we get such feedback from so many employees?

http://community.sigames.com/tags.php?tag=fm-suggestion

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=24018

Nobody, especially not from SI, has ever claimed that this is a bug free game.

For my personal experience I'm not keen with the way some users and especially the team dismissed the injury bugs and people loosing stating there was nothing wrong with the game, in my view it clearly is wrong. Some of those users came bashing those that complain.

This is my main problem with these forums at the moment. I did not say at any moment that SI did on purpose when developing FM09 in "making injuries" the main feature. What I'm saying and accusing SI, is not admitting that there was a bug in the injuries.

Press Conference was major let down and not properly tested. Don't get me wrong I was exited with Press Conference and the 3D, but if they were implemented right there was no complains however both where where incomplete (I'm will not talk about the 3D because I have spoken to many times about it).

Grade, users that post calm, insightful analysis and criticism are often invited onto the beta testing forums, so they are given ample opportunity to interact directly with the developers and help shape the game.

I can't imagine SI sit in development meetings and say "let's make the match engine less idiotic this year". You need to give them something better to work with if you want them to get more involved with the wider community.

I already posted far to many times about my main problems with FM09 and previously with FM08, so I'm not mentioning them here. You have to forgive me, but posted two times, full length posts on the Wishlist my opinions and in other threads my problems and no one at SI have look at them.

Like I said i posted Twice in the wish list, one in PC/Mac general discussion (that was closed and advised me to post in Wishlist) and few rants in other threads.

Do you think that they read all of posts in Wishlist thread? 232 pages(in my configuration)? 4621 posts? I ask this because I feel that this is thread that extremely confusing.

But, I do say that they did marvelous job with FM games and CM games before the split. I still play their best game in my opinion FM07. So I do think they did hell of a work. But I condone, is this idiotic split in the forums the protectors of the game that bash anyone that complain about the game, instead of helping them and those people that critic the game. Sometimes I feel it is like a open war out here and was one of the main reasons I don't come here as offen I would like. In the end it the forum reputation that ends up loosing.

Cheers :)

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Disagreeing with you is not bashing you. I have nothing against you and I have no wish to be in a war when we are all on the same side. I am just stating a point of view that happens to be different to yours. I am not discouraging criticism of the game - quite the opposite in fact. The more quality feedback SI get, the better the game is and that benefits me more than pretending the game is faultless.

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Disagreeing with you is not bashing you. I have nothing against you and I have no wish to be in a war when we are all on the same side. I am just stating a point of view that happens to be different to yours. I am not discouraging criticism of the game - quite the opposite in fact. The more quality feedback SI get, the better the game is and that benefits me more than pretending the game is faultless.

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I'm not say that it is you playmaker, what I'm saying that there people that do.

I really hoping the FM10 returns to be a true successor to FM07, because my FM07 cd is asking for quite sometime that he wants a retirement.

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SI do actually read the wishlist and post in it :)

The Mac version is exactly the same as the PC version is exactly the same as WSM, so it's 3 games. But this is a forum for all versions of FM.

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Just because we don't post doesn't mean we don't read.

We are always watching (in a non creepy way) ;)

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Just because we don't post doesn't mean we don't read.

We are always watching (in a non creepy way) ;)

It is good to hear that. I mean it.

And if you are chick you can watch me any time you want (including the creepy way ;) lol)

SI do actually read the wishlist and post in it :)

The Mac version is exactly the same as the PC version is exactly the same as WSM, so it's 3 games. But this is a forum for all versions of FM.

It is a forum for all versions of FM, but doesn't mean that SI doesn't support them, because if they do, there was patch for the subs for 5 to 7 for FM07. But I understand for being an old game doesn't make no sense in keeping support FM07 even more CM97-98.

I'm going to keep my expectations in very low level and make only one request for FM10. Bring fun back into the game!

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Guest roberto922
It is good to hear that. I mean it.

And if you are chick you can watch me any time you want (including the creepy way ;) lol)!

His names Craig ;)

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It is a forum for all versions of FM, but doesn't mean that SI doesn't support them, because if they do, there was patch for the subs for 5 to 7 for FM07. But I understand for being an old game doesn't make no sense in keeping support FM07 even more CM97-98.!

Providing support involves ensuring that someone can get a game up and running on the correct specification of computer, not that rule changes from one year to another are patched - if you buy FM2007, then the rules should be applicable to the time that the game comes out. If they change in real life after this, they would be changed for the season version when the changes have come into play.

Or have I misunderstood what you're trying to say?

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Maybe support wasn't the correct word. What I'm saying that you won't release anything for FM07, because you have newer games. When I'm saying release of patches with data updates and correcting the new subs rule 5 to 7 players for English clubs.

That is what I mean by support, so wrong word. From what you said, well if you do support for FM07 then good, because there are many that did go back to FM08 and FM07.

That is way I say you have only 3 games at this moment. The others are your games, but they are part of the past, part of your company history.

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mmm...

dark background is indeed less tiring to the eyes

whats more is that its environment friendly... haha yea lame i know

just like http://www.blackle.com/ you can save lots of watts of energy out of every hardcore players who didnt turn off their monitors for hours watching their team :D

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Disappointing, really. It is basically Football Manager Chrome or Internet Manager 8. White is a poor colour for any sort of UI as it is too bright. Lack of side-menu means that the game will look awful on widescreen monitors.

Customizability is in and I'm slightly surprised that with all the widgets put in the current iteration, we still need to reskin the game (a long and difficult process for newcomers) to make the UI look different. Why don't SI do something like the Eclipse IDE, where we have several "views" which we can attach to various panels, which we can dock to the top/bottom/left/right or float them? That way SI will end up satisfying everyone.

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The "it's too white" argument is interesting - if you browse to your favourite web sites or open up your favourite applications, how many have a pale background and how many have a dark background?

I agree on that, most sites are not dark. but a bit darker colors is nice in games when you play alot of hours in front of it, light colors make it harder for the eyes after couple of hours.

I like the design for the new skin in FM2010 that you can see in the picture, BUT i think the colors is not speaking "football" to me.

I would like some green in it, to make it have a more "football feeling" and that would even make it darker that many of us players like :-)

cheers

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Uh ... no.

It's true! You may blurt out that Google uses a white background. However, you use Google only sparingly to look for other sites, Use Google for several hours and you will feel your eyes strain. Wikipedia uses white a lot but that is because the best scheme for reading text is black text on white. Actually, that's a lie - there are better schemes with very bright text on black, but they are unfamiliar.

A white background is too bright for a GUI. There is a reason why Windows Classic uses light grey and its themes never offer anything remotely close to white. Also, you cannot go too dark because contrast is less evident at low levels. This is why the grey in the Windows Standard theme in Windows 98 went lighter in Windows ME and Windows 2000/XP - it was a tad too dark.

Black-on-white should only ever be used when one is dealing with fairly large amounts of text as it keeps things legible. This is why typers and programmers especially need to rest their eyes because it's not the kindest scheme on the eyes. The contrast is too much in the long-term. Conversely, for games like this, where you may play for hours, you need something kind on the eyes, like the default Football Manager 2007 skin.

It doesn't take a large amount to dip it to comfortable levels. White is too much but rgb(224, 224, 224) can be pleasant in some cases.

There is a reason why 1) lots of users are happy to stick with the default Windows Classic theme on Windows and 2) one of the first thing a lot of knowledgeable users do is reskin Football Manager with a better skin, after all.

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It's true! You may blurt out that Google uses a white background. However, you use Google only sparingly to look for other sites, Use Google for several hours and you will feel your eyes strain. Wikipedia uses white a lot but that is because the best scheme for reading text is black text on white. Actually, that's a lie - there are better schemes with very bright text on black, but they are unfamiliar.

A white background is too bright for a GUI. There is a reason why Windows Classic uses light grey and its themes never offer anything remotely close to white. Also, you cannot go too dark because contrast is less evident at low levels. This is why the grey in the Windows Standard theme in Windows 98 went lighter in Windows ME and Windows 2000/XP - it was a tad too dark.

Black-on-white should only ever be used when one is dealing with fairly large amounts of text as it keeps things legible. This is why typers and programmers especially need to rest their eyes because it's not the kindest scheme on the eyes. The contrast is too much in the long-term. Conversely, for games like this, where you may play for hours, you need something kind on the eyes, like the default Football Manager 2007 skin.

It doesn't take a large amount to dip it to comfortable levels. White is too much but rgb(224, 224, 224) can be pleasant in some cases.

There is a reason why 1) lots of users are happy to stick with the default Windows Classic theme on Windows and 2) one of the first thing a lot of knowledgeable users do is reskin Football Manager with a better skin, after all.

I agree completely. On release day of FM08's demo, many people complained that the skin was too bright. People complain about everything on demo release day, I know, but you sensed they had a point. Even Ter thinks the 07 skin was better than either of the two skins since.

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Miles you having any more drinking+twitter sessions any time soon? i would like to see more!

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Ok noob twitter question, do i have to register on it to be able to see the screenshots.........never used it before

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