Patch 8.0.1. Shots to Goal Ratio not fixed - SHOCKING!! SI Please answer - believe to be related to Closing down and Long shots bug

[Sioldana]

Eh I just noticed this post

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/5392039363

which unintentionally points out what some of us are experiencing, check out how many opposition goalkeepers get MOM

[wwfan]

Managing at Lower Levels is Easy

If you manage at lower levels, you don't need to worry too much about tatcical sophistication. A simple Home and Away tactic will do the job, as long as they are contructed reasonably logically. Build a good set of tactics and you will do well.

Managing at Higher Levels is Difficult

If you have a world class team then it is more difficult to manage them.

Reasons:

1: You might not have the requisite reputation and thus players will not perform.

2: You do have the requisite reputation but haven't come to terms with the extra level of tactical knowledge required at the top level. This has only been an issue since 07 but is the major cause of the Missed Shotsd 'Bug'.

NB: I'm not trying to insult tactics here, just to give some advice. A lot of tactics are excellent until this scenario presents itself. It does require a different outlook to combat it.

The Missed Shots 'Bug'

This only happens at higher levels with European quality sides. Why? Simply because the AI will play ultra-defensively and restrict space as much as possible. This leads to the Missed Shots 'Bug'. A lot of the chances created are hurried becasue the user tactic is not actually creating the quality of chance that the 2d seems to suggest. Players are snatching at chances because of poorly thought out tactics against ultra-defensive sides. This is not to say that the tactic is poor; rather it is poor against a certain type of formation. Most of you complaining about the Missed Shot 'Bug' don't see it against other big sides, because they don't play so defensively, and thus your world class players have the time and space to operate and thus play to their attributes.

The problem is in the representation of the match, rather than it being a bug. The 2d makes it impossible to see the actual quality of the chance, and the commentary doesn't help. The only measurement device is the percentage of shots to goals scored. If it is hovering around the 5% mark, then something is wrong tactically, and those experiencing it need to come to terms with that. Posting result after result doesn't convince the naysayers and hardly helps those experiencing the issue. Thinking about and experimenting with different tactical ideas might help though.

The following section contains tactical advice, so if you don't want to read it (e.g. Jimbo) I suggest skipping the rest.

Ten Tips to Combat the Missed Shot 'Bug'

1: Don't play a TM. It restricts play and makes it one-dimensional and is thus easy to defend

2: Think about a playmaker if you have a player who can perform that function. It helps maintain possession and generally increases the quality of chance.

3: Wide and deep (to open space)

4: Three free roles, with high CF, to improve chances of the unexpected, which is impossible to defend against.

5: Slow it down and reduce passing to improve possession and to increase the quality of chance (tempo 1-3 in Europe, 4-5 in UK). You can up tempo for short burts at any point in the game to provide the AI with a different challenge.

6: Heavy pressing and hard tackling to try and win the ball up the pitch (slightly less for DCs and FBs, but high nonetheless)

7: Zonal, loose marking to increase space

8: Lots of Through Balls

9: (not sure about this one but certainly worked in 07) Hold Up Ball with wingers and forwards to allow time for your midfielders/FBs to catch up with play and overload the box.

10: FWRs often for FBs to overload the box and increase opportunity of uncontested cross.

I hope that helps.

[earmack]

WWfan:thanks for trying but I do all that except zonal marking (on principal)and full backs running forward often because whenever I do that i get hit hard on the break down my own flanks too often.

What I don't get is basically everyone is saying the problem is the match we see is not representative so what 'appear' to be good chances actually aren't, BUT I think if SI ever do answer I think they will contradict this. Think about it would you make a game where what you show to the player is completely contrary to what happens in real life and then claim its a realistic simulation? Still would like an answer from SI even though your answer is thoughtful and you are trying to help and I very much appreciate it.

[earmack]

P.S I have the problem at the Championship and corresponding levels across Europe(Seria B etc..). Maybe its because my team is that much better than the opposition already at that point. Maybe its because the game actively hates me.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by earmack:

P.S I have the problem at the Championship and corresponding levels across Europe(Seria B etc..). Maybe its because my team is that much better than the opposition already at that point. Maybe its because the game actively hates me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pre-match odds would be a good indicator. If you are seriously short-odds favourites then the problem will replicate. I would seriously suggest the marking and FBs FWRing often though. At Serie B and Championship level I'd be more careful with Free Roles and CF too.

[ifllorescu]

I am playing in Romanian league 2 level. I have two strikers basically totally opposite, one very slow and very skilled and the second very fast (18 pace and acceleration) very much in technique and dribbling. I always favored the second type of strikers in the past (past versions) since I like to play a quick/counterattacking style. I play both of them since they are the best I got and the team has no money for another transfer.

The problem with the current version of the match engine is evident in the team performance as watched through the highlights. Whenever they play together the fast striker has an insane amount of chances for this level (5-6) all one-on-one. At his speed and dribbling and at this level of competition he just flies through the defense. However, he only scores one or none of his chances every game. You will say that his finishing and composure are only 12 whatever. I played football. I watched football. When you are face to face with the goalie he is at a disadvantage. He could be Kahn for all I care I still score 3 out of 5 regardless of my composition or whatever stats.

Yeah it is possible to miss one like that maybe two. If you miss three though, you will not play for that team again. But five one on one chances come on. I remember a few weeks ago Steaua played Arsenal I believe and Iacob had a sitter one on one with the goalie. He missed, and since then he doesn't play that much. The owner said apparently that from winter he thinks of bringing another attacker.

Anyway, parenthesis aside there is a bad side to this coin too. Since the fast attacker gets all the chances the slow skilled one gets almost no shots on the net. Consequently, they both suck.

[prakimus88]

I haven't read through all the posts in this thread (all lot of them seem kind of nonsensical), but to weigh into the issue:

I think that since 8.01 (versus 8.00), the match engine has been downgraded the ability of strikers to finish from chances a bit too much across the board. HOWEVER, i don't think its a bug nor is it 'SHOCKING!!', it's just an attempt by SI to balance out some of the problems in the game.

in 8.00:

I didn't play it too much or with a lot of detail (i was waiting for the patch) but from what i did play, i noticed that FM08 had significantly improved the match engine, particularly in how teams defend realistically, and the variety of ways in which attackers try and beat defences. In FM08 there are a lot more realistic through balls, 1-2s, clever wing play, creative dribblers beating defenders and smart choices in 1-1s with the GK. The key result was that a lot of the time in previous FMs where stikers and other attackers would waste heaps of chances (particularly 1-1s with the GK), they were now able to finish goals, in ways that you see in real life. The key example i kept seeing time and time again, is when two strikers were pushing up against the oppositions back four, you would see one of them play a good through ball that the other striker would run onto, as the GK would charge out, the striker would no longer hit it straight at the GK, but instead either chip it over him or smash it past him.

The problem with this was that some games became VERY high scoring, especially when two good attacking teams played against each other. My examples were over two games, playing in Serie A with Roma for 3 years, and with Napoli for two years. Some of the problems were pretty clear when playing against Inter (Ibrahimovic/Adriano/Ribery/Stankovic/Suazo attacking VS Owen/Totti/Mancine/Taddei/Van der Vaart for me).

Playing for Roma, i played Inter 14 times over the course of three seasons (6 in the league, 2 super cups, 2 in champions league and 4 in the cup). The results were emblematic of what happened when a good attacking side were able to rip through a defence:

League H:Won 8-1

League A:Loss 0-6

Cup A:Loss 1-2

Cup H:Loss 0-8

Super Cup H:Won 4-1

League A:Loss 0-4

ECC H:Won 4-3

ECC A:Won 4-1

League H:Won 5-4

Super Cup H:Won 5-4

League A:Loss 5-3

Cup H: Won 2-0

Cup A: Loss 5-4

League H: Won 7-1

Now obviously there were mitigating factors in some of these games, but the vast majority of these games were played under "normal" circumstances (near full-strength teams, good morale, decent-excellent form, no reds/GK injuries in game, standard formations). Now I consider myself a decent FM player - i can take a decent team and win the league consistently as well as win cups/continentals - and over the course of this game with Roma, i won three serie a's, 1 ecc and 1 italian cup, but i'd never experienced results like this. It came down to the fact, that when there was a team with world-class attacking players, they were simply able to finish all those chances that were missed in previous games (i had my two strikers and AMC score 20+ and my wingers score 15+, while Ibrahimovic scored a hat-trick in 4 of the 6 games against me). Much of this, could also be due to the closing down bug which allowed attackers to keep the ball for longer in attack.

Since 8.01:

I think SI have tried to compensate for the number of goals scored by good attacking teams by toning down the ability of attackers to score from different types of chances, the build up play is almost identical (except that there are less strikers player another one with a through ball), but where in 8.00 good strikers could effortlessly beat a GK, they now almost invariably play it just wide of goal or straight into the GK. I'm not going to quote my games statistics (there are plenty of people already doing that, and some very illogically) but having played a season and a half with atletico, i've had some very different results. Playing with a comparable attack to my roma team (Maxi Rodriguez, Van der Vaart, Reyes, Aguero and Forlan as my first team, with support from Gyan, Luis Garcia, Raul Garcia, D'Alessandro, Simao), i find that i'm not converting nearly as many chances, despite creating more than i did with roma.

Key things i've noticed are that strikers ability to beat the keeper is poor (hitting it into them or past the post), there is a bug where players who are on the goal line but far too far from the goal still try and shoot (generating a lot of those 'unbelievable miss' commentaries) and the other big change i've noticed is that AMC's score a lot less from long shots and pile drivers from just outside the area (van der vaart has got just one long shot in last season, compared to about 15 in my game with Roma).

With that said, the balance hasn't been altered, as it applies to both teams equally, and as such the difficulty is still comparable to 8.00 (I did the league/cup double in season 1, and am sitting 4th half way through season 2, 6 points off the pace). And while there is still some high scoring games (5-4 win over barca, 6-3 loss to sevilla), there's no longer a scenario where i could play a team slightly better than me and get trounced 8-0 one week, then beat them 6-0 the next.

Well to conclude this long analysis of the change to shots/scoring in 8.01, i feel that it certainly has changed, and now there are a lot less of those "realistic" chances being converted in 8.01 than in 8.00, however the end result has been to balance out some of the problems of high-scoring matches and floodgate scenarios where one top team trounces another consistently. HOWEVER, there is nothing which is a bug about it, it's just the mechanics of the games that are easily adaptable to. I still find that the majority of results go to the team that deserved it, and the difficulty is no easier or harder since pre-patch. I would like to see the engine tweaked more so that long shots are again useful (i just don't use them anymore), fix the bug with players taking shots from the goal line and engine thinking it was an easy shot, bread and butter chances against the keeper should be taken better, BUT, there should be less of them.

Cheers,

P

[towerofpower]

Agreed with lot of that , wwfan.

Slow tempo seems to be very key for quality chances, for me at least and I haven't faced any of this problem.

4-3-3 with AMR and AML seems to be working very well with almost everyone but CB's set thrugh balls to medium.

[earmack]

WWf: thanks again, I am grateful for someone saying: 'hey try this it might help' and thats exactly what you and some others have done. Usually I'm favorite but the other teams don't have ridiculously long odds (for the most part). I flat out refuse to play zonal marking simply because in real football VERY few teams use it. This isn't the only reason I don't use it, I also feel zonal marking could allow the opposition wingers too much room to move inside and said wingers are excellent at crossing from any distance when they have space. Basically once the other team are withing 30 yards of my goal I want them marked and in my experience zonal marking just doesn't do this. As for the full backs getting forward, again I have been burnt waaaaaay to many times with full backs set to run forward mixed to even contemplate pushing them forward more often (I should note that I play a 4-3-1-2 so am lacking defensive cover on my flanks already. I also only give free roles to the AMC, one central mid(acting as a very basic 'winger' and a striker (again acting more like a winger than anything). One thing I will say: my team plays the football I would expect them to play given my formation and instructions, the ONLY problem is the inability to convert 'easy' chances, this goes back to what I was saying about things currently (apparently) being counter intuitive, its very hard for me to look at my team that generally dominates and go oh hey I should change that.

[earmack]

Also it should be noted even though i play an ostensibly narrow formation in reality the team is very much biased towards wing play, however I'd say (given I have a loft of players with good passing and creativity and instructions to play through balls often) the majority of my chances are my strikers one-on-one with the keeper, if it is in fact correct that these opportunities look a lot better than they actually are we may have reached the core of my problem and I'm guessing others have the same troubles. It seems almost unfair that we are being punished for playing a certain way, the last thing the game should be doing (in my opinion) is forcing you to play a certain way (i.e:crossing the ball is more likely to lead to a goal than putting a player clean through on goal).

[wwfan]

I would have to suggest once more you get the FBs forward, at least to mixed. With a slow tempo, they shouldn't be caught out of position. Getting them forward should help with accuracy of crosses and open space, as there very presence draws a defender out of a tight position to cover them. Even offering a striker 0.5 of a second extra on the ball should make all the difference, and that is what overlapping full-backs can do.

Yes, it will compromise your defence, but that shouldn't matter against an ultra-defensive side. You obviosuly wouldn't do it away from home, or against top quality opposition, but with home advantage and a higher quality team you should do it. Once you score you can revert to a safer option. It can't hurt to try, even as an 'I'll reload if I lose' test.

[wwfan]

I'm loath to post any more of this stuff in GQ, but I'd be happy to enter a dialgoue with you in T&TT or at FM-Britain. I guarantee that the problem you are seeing has a solution, although it might require a lot of flexibility in terms of your conceptualisation of football (and FM ).

[wwfan]

Now, I have nowhere near the saem level of understanding of the 08 engine as I had of the 07, but believe the similarities to outweight the differences. Regarding the 'can't socre/concede too often with a great squad' I had this response from an American user in '07.

This thread is depressing.

I've always enjoyed wwfan's commentary in various threads. I like designing my own tactics after reading everyone's results.

I'm in 2016 in a particular game. I started with Oxford, made it to the championship, left for Man Utd (via a pit stop at Portsmouth). I've been dominant.

Starting the previous year, things started to go awry. Despite an even better squad, the goals started to dry up. And while I didn't allow more goals, my defense seemed more disorganized. So I started tweaking, sometimes after consulting these forums - other times, just doing what seemed logical. That first season, I still managed to win the title - only managed 70 points, and only beat out two other squads on goal difference.

The problems were compounded this season. Despite more tweaks, I was only 5th through 13 games with what was easily the best squad. I knew this thread was here, and finally the temptation was too great. I downloaded wwfan's tactics.

Instant success. How depressing. What I did find remarkable, however, was how substantial differences in game play can flow from minor tactical deviations. The formation I was playing mostly was actually very, very, very close to the Control tactic. But much less successful.

Thanks for your contributions, but I wish you'd adhered to your no-download rules. I just wasn't strong enough...

I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here, only to offer an actual example of the very problem people are complaining about having a tactical solution. It may not be easy, it may even see counter-intuitive to some, but it does exist nonetheless.

[earmack]

I'll give it a go for the next few games which are all at home against supposedly weaker teams. Incidentally one player recently(an hour ago) had 9 one-on-ones and not only did he not score but he only hit the 'target' (if the target means the keepers face)4 times. It doesn't help my mood that the opposition had 2 one on ones and scored both costing me 2 thoroughly deserved points. He will not play for the next 5 games or unless injuries require it.

[wwfan]

Good luck.

[earmack]

I am also equally sure there is a solution and I am hugely grateful that you're spending your time trying to help me, it just seems that I shouldn't NEED to look for a solution to dominating yet failing to convert chances, hopefully SI will tweak the hell out of the game for the next release and finally achieve a realistic balance between chances created and chances scored. I don't really want to go down the route of downloading a tactic as I feel that any success would be the authors and not my own, i WILL happily take the sort of advice you have offered already in this thread.

Thanks again for all your help and your kind attitude.

[earmack]

it just seems that I shouldn't NEED to look for a solution to dominating yet failing to convert chances

--------

That looks really stupid now I've seen it, I more meant that as in real life if a teams creating loads of chances but not scoring it would not be down to tactics more down to bad luck/some sort of freak of nature occurring across the whole team that stops them scoring from what look like easy chances( I'm thinking Arsenal last year and the entire team missing something like 30 tap ins from inside the box across the whole season).

[earmack]

Oh how I wish their was an edit function I'm constantly thinking of little addendum's the second I click 'post'. I think my problem is that I cannot separate real football and FM and i really need to get over myself.

Also do you find that your tactic/s(say a slightly attacking home tactic) works for most/every team/s, or is it very much one of those things where ever set of players/team needs a very specifically tweaked tactic?

[wwfan]

I think one of the problems is the testing methodology. Tactical testers generally have a good understanding of the engine (or they wouldn't be testing). Hence, most tactics that are used as test tactics don't create the scenarios being described, but much more realistic outcomes. It is impossible for SI to test all possible user designs. The outcome seems to be, that a certain type of tactic being used at a certain level against certain AI formations produces too many chances from which far too few are converted. Perceiving is as 'unrealistic because my team should score loads from these chances' produces frustration and broken mice/keyboards. Perceiving it as 'unrealistic because no team can produce this amount of chances and not score from them' should push the user to redeisgn his tactics to be more akin to reality (as JordanC explained earlier in the thread).

Highlighting the goals percentage from shots on target as the major indicator of tactical quality is the only really valuable method. If you have a low percentage, you are doing something wrong, no matter what you may 'think' you are seeing. It may be that the engine isn't able to 'represent' reality the way you would wish based on the shots you have, but it is certainly 'represeneting' reality in terms of the world it has constructed, as highlighted by PaulC's soak statistics earlier in the thread. To enjoy the game, one has to stop blaming the engine and try to reconceptualise their tactics as being wrong on two accounts:

1: No tactic can create so many chances

2: The percentage of goals/shot on target is too low

Both are unrealsitic. Rant, rave and continue to post stats that just prove you are doing the above does not achieve a thing. Learn to mimic reality and you will enjoy the game again. That means you have to reconceptualise your tactical design, as the engine (fairly or unfairly) is stopping your current set-up from working. I believe it is both fair (tries to represent reality across the tactical spectrum) and unfair (looks like you should be winning in the 2d and fails to suggest why you aren't).

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by earmack:

Oh how I wish their was an edit function I'm constantly thinking of little addendum's the second I click 'post'. I think my problem is that I cannot separate real football and FM and i really need to get over myself.

Also do you find that your tactic/s(say a slightly attacking home tactic) works for most/every team/s, or is it very much one of those things where ever set of players/team needs a very specifically tweaked tactic? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I beleive that a general methodology combined with a few individually applied instructions should work. Tehre are certain things you must do at higher levels that you absolutely mustn't do at lower levels, but I would recommend system over individual, but with a few individual instructions to fine tune each tactic.

[earmack]

Thats interesting, I always emphasize individual instructions over team ones.

It may sound like I have no fun with the game but the truth is I'm generally quite successful and enjoy playing, its just with this release despite success I 'felt' I was missing too many chances, as you rightly pointed out thats not the right way to think about things.

You'll see me complaining a lot on these forums but thats just how I am when it comes to anything to do with football, if I'm/the team I support/the team I 'manage' (are)not winning I lose objectivity. I will try and use the full back scenario you suggested and I may even adopt a zonal marking system (even writing that makes me shudder).

Again many thanks for trying to help me and also for breaking up the mini-flame war that this thread had become.

[wwfan]

As an example:

A systematic approach with a 4-4-2 should see one MC staying back to offer defensive cover and one MC to become part of the attack. Thus, mentality and forward runs should remain constant throughout all 4-4-2s to keep this shape (although I have them both sitting back in counter-attacking formations). Shape should be the first tactical consideration.

However, defensive MCs have differing qualities. Some may be highly creative with great passing but poor shooting, whereas others may be fantastic dribblers who can bring the ball out of defence with ease, whereas others still might have great workrate, stamina and long shots. Logically changing these instructions within the overall system to allow for specific attributes should improve a tactic.

[earmack]

I see what your saying, generally I have 1 MC set to more defensive than the other one/two (depending on formation) and am always looking for the elusive

Carrick/Hargreaves combo(I don't use my center mids as attackers ala Lampard/Kaka but rather as deep lying big tacklers or pinpoint passers and preferably that combination).

Shape is always the first thing I think about, I'm always worrying that I'll have one player unbalanced compared to the rest of the team and sometimes in game I've noticed that sort of thing happening (e.g:One Midfielder not tracking back and forcing a defender out of position to close down). It would appear that generally speaking I'm not doing anything stupid (I kinda knew this as otherwise I'd of been relegated and sacked many times)but that I'm not reacting to a deficiency in my tactics for certain games. From now on I'll try to think of it thus: if we're not scoring somethings going wrong, we are not being 'cheated'.

[wwfan]

That's the first step. It is a humbling experience. I went through it two years ago with the release of 06. I thought the engine was fatally flawed until I (eventually) proved to myself it wasn't and it was my coneptualisation that was amiss. I had a similar experience with '07, but went through much less angst sorting that out as '06 had already provided me with a 'testing methodology' that I knew worked. I haven't played 08 enough yet, but I am assuming the process will reamin valid.

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,

But in ourselves.

[RSCA Belgian Blue]

You can't win every game you have with loads of chances with 7-0 or 8-0. If you expect having loads of high scores, don't play Football Manager but well F*** Manager.

[xouman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

The Missed Shots 'Bug'

This only happens at higher levels with European quality sides. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In BSS and specially BSP I have had this problem lots of times. With my 4-1-3-2 I have lots of shoots to keep, but results are quite unpredictable. With 3-4-1-2, I allow lots of chances but my goal ratio is better for me and worse for rival.

As someone has said, tactics that create lots of chances seem somehow penalized :/

[Jam Man]

Whilst I dont have as big as a problem as others I do see what they mean about one on ones. Generally though I dont see games where I dominate and dont win though and my striker scored 38 goals last season...

Theres two issues here :

1. Theres too many one on ones, in a real game you rarely see pure one on one situations, in FM you get 5+

2. Strikers dont convert them, contrary to whats said above the ratio shouldnt be 1:1 or 1:1.5 thats absurd, but it should be 1:3 or 1:4 at very worse.

Its not down to what tactics you are using at that point, if you have created a one on one using whatever method then the only consideration is can the striker finish and Id say in these situations they arent lethal enough.

Using Freddy Eastwood at Championship level he can miss 4 one on ones a game easily which knowing how good he is its impossible.

One reason for missing so many is they shoot from 18-20 yards, a striker one on one with no defender near would take the ball in far closer.

[BayernMB]

I really don't see a point in some people stating - "It's down to your tactics"

If my player is alone in front of the GK inside penalty box, no defender near him and he just places the ball in opponent GK's hands (no deflection) and it happenes 3-4 times a game and the striker has high finishing, composure (Aguerro, Villa, Henry)) I really don't understant what it has to do with my tactics.

[gbmiranda]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hairy Coo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Get better players making the shots or change your tactics </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now thats advice which covers all bases </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this case the second part is almmost certainly correct.

Sure the creative part of his team is working well, but there's obviously a problem in the final third.

I'm going to guess that he's being too attacking, and too up-tempo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

FM have a lot of bugs... a lot of news making speculations, and you never fix it, and create new bugs, like this "long shoot" bug, and THIS IS A BUG, i'm losing for teams that have no division because a shoot 30 and them 2 times, and I make 1 goal, and them 30...

i will never more buy a FM, this is the first and the last time

[Joor]

I really dont have a shot on goal ratio problem..try a lower creative freedom for your players..yes even your big super star striker.

As you can see here im playing with milan and its only Kaka, seedorf and ronaldo who got 10 CF rest have 5 - this works for me .

27-19

25-17

16-11

19-14

And one more pic from the parma game where you can see the SOT playerssot

[Joor]

And my tactic is a 4-3-1-2 like this: 4312

Everyone got longshoot on rare..but my forwards and kaka will still sometimes try it - maybe 1 or 2 times each match.

[Stuyvesant]

The problem isn't the SOT ratio IMO, it's the player's inability to convert those chances.

[saberhagen83]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

The Missed Shots 'Bug'

This only happens at higher levels with European quality sides. Why? Simply because the AI will play ultra-defensively and restrict space as much as possible. This leads to the Missed Shots 'Bug'. A lot of the chances created are hurried becasue the user tactic is not actually creating the quality of chance that the 2d seems to suggest. Players are snatching at chances because of poorly thought out tactics against ultra-defensive sides. This is not to say that the tactic is poor; rather it is poor against a certain type of formation. Most of you complaining about the Missed Shot 'Bug' don't see it against other big sides, because they don't play so defensively, and thus your world class players have the time and space to operate and thus play to their attributes.

The problem is in the representation of the match, rather than it being a bug. The 2d makes it impossible to see the actual quality of the chance, and the commentary doesn't help. The only measurement device is the percentage of shots to goals scored. If it is hovering around the 5% mark, then something is wrong tactically, and those experiencing it need to come to terms with that. Posting result after result doesn't convince the naysayers and hardly helps those experiencing the issue. Thinking about and experimenting with different tactical ideas might help though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm managing Arsenal and Eastbourne my self, and have complained about the amount of shots made and how little is put away. Watching the 2D in extended I find that especially Arsenal do create loads of chances, and most of them are really good. I've lost count how many 1-on-1 they've missed and how many clear chances they put more near the corner flag despite being more or less alone with the keeper straight infront of him inside the box. Rarely do the keeper need to move to save, and when the players finally put it in an open space they DO score. However, after the full patch, this is affecting the computer teams as well. It's silly how many chances are created (almost never under 30/game) but shots on goal are almost non-existant for both me and computer teams.

I have tried to play with low tempo and short passing, also high pressing on most of my players except CB's. This worked perfect on every FM game before 08. There has always been missed chances but never the amount I'm seeing in FM08. I can't remember how many tactics I have made or downlaoded that has not worked at all. I've finally found one that is really solid at the back, but scoring goals always is the same problem no matter tactic.

In BSS it's a mixed bag. They miss a whole lot of chances and put a whole lot of shots horribly wide. But there they shoot much more from outside the area (less quality to get infront of goal more often). While with Arsenal it's great chances inside the box most of the time put horribly wide or simply straight in the hands of the keeper. I mean they rarely have to work to save a shot, they simply just stand there accepting the ball. No matter what I have done nothing have worked the slightest to improve goalscoring. I don't expect every shot on goal to go in, but seriously the players could at least try to score not just shoot the balls straight at the keeper! It's one thing when the striker is under pressure from defenders, but it doesn't matter even if he is alone inside the area with plenty of time to hit the target.

[Canabary]

Say what? ... Shots on goal ratio is at least 80% fixed. Sure you get the occasional freak match, but usually thats because you don't base your tactics on the opposition. (England vs Finland,ignored tactics had 30 shots on goal 17 on target 2 in goal)

As for closing down. It's not divine, you won't have your defender ALWAYS closing down the opponent and ALWAYS stopping him. But it sure as heck happens more frequently than before. Lesser defenders (lower leagues) are usually not that good at decisions and mess up the closing down. (Watch a few conference matches in real life and you'll see)

As for long shots, I actually expect my strikers to attempt a long one every now and again, it's football. Several goals are scored from outside the box you know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Everyone I hear complaining just keeps coming out with "I had 30 shots and I didnt win" yet funnily enough, I dont hear you stating how many shots on target your best striker had and how many of those he converted.

So of those 30 shots, how many were on target? of those how many fell to players feet who had good finishing + composure? how many came off the head of people who had crap heading? how many were long shots from someone with awful long shooting?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You make an excellent point here.

Let's take my Portugal vs England match for instance.

I had 21 shots, 17 of which on target.

10 of which were testy shots from the likes of Neville, Hargreaves, Lampard and a few long ones from Gerrard.

5 of which were shots from Rooney, of which 1 was on target.

I now have 2 shots left.

Both shot by Owen. He scored on 1 of them, one was on his head (he missed) the other was a low ball past Ricardo.

Now taking in account the fact that Ricardo is far from a crappy goalkeeper, you'd easily assume that this sounds about right.

He's not about to be outsmarted by a weird angled long shot by Gerrard, nor Lampard (who is not in form)or even a Rooney just out of injury. An Owen (55 goals in 100 caps!) is bound to distort his record, which he did.

When we also see that Neville missed a penalty (I hated him for that for about 20 seconds, about the same time it took for Owen to score )

To the first poster. your tactic is flawed.. I'll leave it at that, oh and you can't just use "TEAM INSTRUCTIONS" for the team. Individuals need to know what they do too.

I'm currently on a 21 match unbeaten run, granted with England, but still. Winning the European championship and qualifying to the WCQ. I'm currently in the Confederations cup (What is this by the way?) Beat Italy 4-1, believed to lose. I've seen Rooney miss plenty shots. Heck I've even seen the master himself, Michael Owen miss a few goals. But I revise my tactics for the games and it seems to help...

Manutd + short + wide + average tempo + playmaker + attacking + closing down on OWN HALF ... honestly mate... It doesn't take a genius to spot the conflicting instructions...

[Pompeyboyz]

I have not read all the way through this thread but thin k I can give a little info on what I have read and what I have encountered in my games.

I have been playing with a tactic that creates anywhere upto 40 shots per game and the AI will only get a maximum of 10 or so.

Now I know that I don't watch upto 50 key highlights from any of the games I play and might get 10-15 to watch. So that means that there are loads of chance that are not 'Key' or basically rubbish chances.

I do find that teams play defensively against me and so the chances I do see are quite often longer shots and I get quite happy when one of my players puts in a 25 yard screamer. However I do get frustrated when shots are missed on the 6 yard box.

Also the chances team get against me are often great goals because the build up play has been great and would need to be as my defence is solid. So the AI only gets a few chances but they have to be good to score and so when they do they are good goals.

I do think there is a 'Long Shot Bug' but not to the extent that others seem to believe. I have tried making everyone of my players have Long Shots set to rarley and still they seem to do it too often and it might need something somewhere in the program that needs to be toned down. I'm not sure what it would be and that would be down to SI to know through all the games being sent to them of the ftp:

I will try to get a game that is full of long shots when long shooting should not be happening.

[Silverx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Everyone I hear complaining just keeps coming out with "I had 30 shots and I didnt win" yet funnily enough, I dont hear you stating how many shots on target your best striker had and how many of those he converted.

So of those 30 shots, how many were on target? of those how many fell to players feet who had good finishing + composure? how many came off the head of people who had crap heading? how many were long shots from someone with awful long shooting? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the problem imo at the moment is that players with good finishing are regularly finding good (i.e. one-on-one chances) and not scoring them not regularly enough (often shooting wide or at the keeper). irl most players will score (even including those who aren't top class strikers) because they have time to compose themselves, pick their spot, or round the keeper, whatever.

In FM, it seems they run all the way to the keeper then think 'oh wait, I should be thinking about what I'm gonna do here' and end up hitting it anywhere but the goal.

[Canabary]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silverx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Everyone I hear complaining just keeps coming out with "I had 30 shots and I didnt win" yet funnily enough, I dont hear you stating how many shots on target your best striker had and how many of those he converted.

So of those 30 shots, how many were on target? of those how many fell to players feet who had good finishing + composure? how many came off the head of people who had crap heading? how many were long shots from someone with awful long shooting? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the problem imo at the moment is that players with good finishing are regularly finding good (i.e. one-on-one chances) and not scoring them not regularly enough (often shooting wide or at the keeper). irl most players will score (even including those who aren't top class strikers) because they have time to compose themselves, pick their spot, or round the keeper, whatever.

In FM, it seems they run all the way to the keeper then think 'oh wait, I should be thinking about what I'm gonna do here' and end up hitting it anywhere but the goal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How's your training schedual then? They are kinda important you know, same with non-playing staff and the whole morale aspect.

[nukehim47]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Canabary:

Everyone I hear complaining just keeps coming out with "I had 30 shots and I didnt win" yet funnily enough, I dont hear you stating how many shots on target your best striker had and how many of those he converted.

So of those 30 shots, how many were on target? of those how many fell to players feet who had good finishing + composure? how many came off the head of people who had crap heading? how many were long shots from someone with awful long shooting?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You make an excellent point here.

Let's take my Portugal vs England match for instance.

I had 21 shots, 17 of which on target.

10 of which were testy shots from the likes of Neville, Hargreaves, Lampard and a few long ones from Gerrard.

5 of which were shots from Rooney, of which 1 was on target.

I now have 2 shots left.

Both shot by Owen. He scored on 1 of them, one was on his head (he missed) the other was a low ball past Ricardo.

Now taking in account the fact that Ricardo is far from a crappy goalkeeper, you'd easily assume that this sounds about right.

He's not about to be outsmarted by a weird angled long shot by Gerrard, nor Lampard (who is not in form)or even a Rooney just out of injury. An Owen (55 goals in 100 caps!) is bound to distort his record, which he did.

When we also see that Neville missed a penalty (I hated him for that for about 20 seconds, about the same time it took for Owen to score )

To the first poster. your tactic is flawed.. I'll leave it at that, oh and you can't just use "TEAM INSTRUCTIONS" for the team. Individuals need to know what they do too.

I'm currently on a 21 match unbeaten run, granted with England, but still. Winning the European championship and qualifying to the WCQ. I'm currently in the Confederations cup (What is this by the way?) Beat Italy 4-1, believed to lose. I've seen Rooney miss plenty shots. Heck I've even seen the master himself, Michael Owen miss a few goals. But I revise my tactics for the games and it seems to help...

Manutd + short + wide + average tempo + playmaker + attacking + closing down on OWN HALF ... honestly mate... It doesn't take a genius to spot the conflicting instructions...

posted before but look at this

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9620/kievmatchstatsjk8.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4877/kievplayerstatsbc0.jpg

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1300/kievgoodchancesdi9.jpg

[léé jónés]

I still play Cm 01/02 with the latest updates. lot better, more fun the lot!

[azonic]

the occasional freak match is definitely acceptable. 3/4 of a season of freak matches is not. the members here wouldnt be complaining if its juz a single match. its the entire game they have been getting this so often and getting so frustrated that made they post threads like this. i too am getting frustrated at this version and i loved FM.

[Silverx]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Canabary:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silverx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Everyone I hear complaining just keeps coming out with "I had 30 shots and I didnt win" yet funnily enough, I dont hear you stating how many shots on target your best striker had and how many of those he converted.

So of those 30 shots, how many were on target? of those how many fell to players feet who had good finishing + composure? how many came off the head of people who had crap heading? how many were long shots from someone with awful long shooting? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the problem imo at the moment is that players with good finishing are regularly finding good (i.e. one-on-one chances) and not scoring them not regularly enough (often shooting wide or at the keeper). irl most players will score (even including those who aren't top class strikers) because they have time to compose themselves, pick their spot, or round the keeper, whatever.

In FM, it seems they run all the way to the keeper then think 'oh wait, I should be thinking about what I'm gonna do here' and end up hitting it anywhere but the goal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How's your training schedual then? They are kinda important you know, same with non-playing staff and the whole morale aspect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shooting is already on High.

Still, shooting say being on high-medium rather than high shouldn't mean strikers turn into clueless idiots when faced with an one-on-one chance.

[leeds_fan_1]

well, i must admit i do agree theres a problem, but i've just tried what wwfan suggested, an im 4-1 against luton

[George Graham]

In an effort to find out the common denominator- can everybody who is getting this issue state what kind of way they are playing and at what level, as I feel this issue will only happen in certain situations.

Im playing as Billericay in League 2 and play a fast, direct, counter-attacking game and have this issue with both 451 and 442 formations.

[Ter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In an effort to find out the common denominator- can everybody who is getting this issue state what kind of way they are playing and at what level, as I feel this issue will only happen in certain situations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would be more helpful is for those who are having issues to log it in the bugs forum (preferably all in the same topic) with example pkm files uploaded to our ftp so that our testers can get a lot of different examples.

[T-Bag]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Managing at Higher Levels is Difficult

If you have a world class team then it is more difficult to manage them.

Reasons:

1: You might not have the requisite reputation and thus players will not perform.

2: You do have the requisite reputation but haven't come to terms with the extra level of tactical knowledge required at the top level. This has only been an issue since 07 but is the major cause of the Missed Shotsd 'Bug'.

NB: I'm not trying to insult tactics here, just to give some advice. A lot of tactics are excellent until this scenario presents itself. It does require a different outlook to combat it.

The Missed Shots 'Bug'

This only happens at higher levels with European quality sides. Why? Simply because the AI will play ultra-defensively and restrict space as much as possible. This leads to the Missed Shots 'Bug'. A lot of the chances created are hurried becasue the user tactic is not actually creating the quality of chance that the 2d seems to suggest. Players are snatching at chances because of poorly thought out tactics against ultra-defensive sides. This is not to say that the tactic is poor; rather it is poor against a certain type of formation. Most of you complaining about the Missed Shot 'Bug' don't see it against other big sides, because they don't play so defensively, and thus your world class players have the time and space to operate and thus play to their attributes.

The problem is in the representation of the match, rather than it being a bug. The 2d makes it impossible to see the actual quality of the chance, and the commentary doesn't help. The only measurement device is the percentage of shots to goals scored. If it is hovering around the 5% mark, then something is wrong tactically, and those experiencing it need to come to terms with that. Posting result after result doesn't convince the naysayers and hardly helps those experiencing the issue. Thinking about and experimenting with different tactical ideas might help though.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi, I have read all of your posts in this thread and over the years and have a lot of respect for your views.

However i'm not sure (and I mean i'm not sure!) if I agree with you or not. I fully agree that the 2d pitch isn't really representing how easy or difficult the chance is. I also agree with the general gist of what you are saying, that it is harder to play with a better team - in fact this is what i've spent most of this thread complaining about. I think where I take issue is the fact that the "poor" teams become so lethal in front of goal. Right I have 30+ shots because they are playing defensive - they are not easy attempts and I score 1 goal. Okay that is fine - but explain to me why the AI will nearly always score with their chances ? Let me take an example of a match in my current game. Me (top) vs Bottom (won 2 games out of 20) - before the game I already know what is going to happen so I save it. Sure enough, I have 17 shots, they have 2 and I draw 2-2. **** happens.... but because i've been testing this I loaded the game up, played the match again and almost the same thing happens again. I don't mind so much missing the chances, I don't mind so much the AI scores with those chances they get - but why is it so difficult to beat the poor teams ?

I take on board what you are saying about them playing defensively but generally the only games I lose each season are against teams at the bottom of the league. If i'm away to one of the top 3 I rub my hands together with glee knowing i'll smash them. As soon as I take on bottom of the league or a League 2 team I know I will lose. I've experienced this from FM07 to FM08 using many different tactics over the time. As I say I really do take on board your comments but I just cannnot accept that tactics which work against every single team will fail against the worst teams in the game.

[BayernMB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BayernMB:

I really don't see a point in some people stating - "It's down to your tactics"

If my player is alone in front of the GK inside penalty box, no defender near him and he just places the ball in opponent GK's hands (no deflection) and it happenes 3-4 times a game and the striker has high finishing, composure (Aguerro, Villa, Henry)) I really don't understant what it has to do with my tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A bit stupid quoting myself, but well...

You see my problems, while playing a pre-patch game. I started a new game and whole match engine looks very different. I'm even using the same tactics in my new game and strikers score much more when facing the keeper 1-1.

[ddidiodion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NickBlues:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NickBlues:

fix your tactics </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should I fix a working tactic that creates 30 shots on goal??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hahahaha thats the greatest answer EVER!

did you score 30 goals? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Managing at Lower Levels is Easy

The Missed Shots 'Bug'

This only happens at higher levels with European quality sides. Why? Simply because the AI will play ultra-defensively and restrict space as much as possible. This leads to the Missed Shots 'Bug'. A lot of the chances created are hurried becasue the user tactic is not actually creating the quality of chance that the 2d seems to suggest. Players are snatching at chances because of poorly thought out tactics against ultra-defensive sides. This is not to say that the tactic is poor; rather it is poor against a certain type of formation. Most of you complaining about the Missed Shot 'Bug' don't see it against other big sides, because they don't play so defensively, and thus your world class players have the time and space to operate and thus play to their attributes.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true, I have been managing in the BSP and it happens there!

[McDoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:

... not been able to play since I first purchased it (October). Waited and waited for weeks and weeks for a decent patch to fix things. But still unable to play... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny how thousands upon thousands of us are doing just fine then....

"unable to play" ROFL

[superalex]

Could one of the many on this thread who are not having any trouble at all with shots on target/goal ratio please upload one of their tactics. Surely uploading one tactic to disprove this theory is far more sensible than people uploading hundreds of games.