Ainu Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 The problem with Tempo seems to be its definition. It's not even evident from the manual what exactly a higher tempo means. Some argue (and that's what I believe) that it's the speed at which the ball moves to the front, rather than it being the speed at which players pass or travel. Intuitively, if someone wanted to recreate Arsenals quick, short passing game to produce beautiful football, he'd choose a quick tempo and short passing. But that's where it goes wrong. Your passing won't be as short as desired and it'll all be too inaccurate. Now someone with deeper knowledge of the game would choose a slower tempo and short passing, but still use a rather attacking mentality. The passes will still be fast, player movement will still be fast, but the passes will be more considerate. Often they'll opt for the easy short pass, not necessarily to a player further up field. It results in much better control of the ball, much longer stretches of possession and thus less opportunities for the opponent, and I believe it can't hurt in terms of player conditions either. If you have the players to play this type of game, it's by far the best option. Of course, not all teams can do this, and I believe a fast and direct style is a bit too ineffective in this game. A team like Man Utd can be lethal with a fast direct counter, and this is not so apparent in FM08. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyB123 Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 The match engine infruriates me. I still don't think I've seen my defenders complete a sucessful tackle (Or foul anyone for that matter). Its the double standards that are really frustrating. The AI team seem to be able to smoothly slick their way through my backline , then hammer it past the keeper , when with 33 shots I still cannot seem to score. Why can't they just patch the game with the 7.0.2 match engine , that was bloody good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
syimie Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 A game should be entertaining...Not to make you sick!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickooko Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by syimie: A game should be entertaining...Not to make you sick!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Agree. Other than the unrealistic 1 on 1 missing issue, i pretty much enjoy the difficulties and challenges presented by the patch 8.0.1. It really means something for winning the league back to back and cups now. However i believe the game post 8.0.1 is too hard for the majority of casual gamers who ask for enjoyment but not spend hours and hours studying tactic and keep losing. (Not another job of becoming football manager after back from office!) I think it will be good if SI can introduce difficulty level for the varity of gamers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe_latte Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rickooko: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by syimie: A game should be entertaining...Not to make you sick!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Agree. Other than the unrealistic 1 on 1 missing issue, i pretty much enjoy the difficulties and challenges presented by the patch 8.0.1. It really means something for winning the league back to back and cups now. However i believe the game post 8.0.1 is too hard for the majority of casual gamers who ask for enjoyment but not spend hours and hours studying tactic and keep losing. (Not another job of becoming football manager after back from office!) I think it will be good if SI can introduce difficulty level for the varity of gamers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I think having the option to select your difficulty would be both a good thing and also a bad thing. It would be good because not every football nut likes the idea of spending a month tinkering with tactics to find his/her niche, but it could also be bad because nobody would really know if someone is cheating in regard to posting up screenshots, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Graham Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ainu: The problem with Tempo seems to be its definition. It's not even evident from the manual what exactly a higher tempo means. Some argue (and that's what I believe) that it's the speed at which the ball moves to the front, rather than it being the speed at which players pass or travel. Intuitively, if someone wanted to recreate Arsenals quick, short passing game to produce beautiful football, he'd choose a quick tempo and short passing. But that's where it goes wrong. Your passing won't be as short as desired and it'll all be too inaccurate. Now someone with deeper knowledge of the game would choose a slower tempo and short passing, but still use a rather attacking mentality. The passes will still be fast, player movement will still be fast, but the passes will be more considerate. Often they'll opt for the easy short pass, not necessarily to a player further up field. It results in much better control of the ball, much longer stretches of possession and thus less opportunities for the opponent, and I believe it can't hurt in terms of player conditions either. If you have the players to play this type of game, it's by far the best option. Of course, not all teams can do this, and I believe a fast and direct style is a bit too ineffective in this game. A team like Man Utd can be lethal with a fast direct counter, and this is not so apparent in FM08. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> A very thoughtful post. Particularly agree about fast and direct styles- which in the modern game can be devestating. But oh no in FM a sloooow buildup is more effective even though really irl most times would prefer to defend against this as it easier to keep shape and defensive positioning as the team is not being stretched or caught by surprise. Its why for me FM doesnt success as a simulation as its not about applying what we know about real world football- its more about working out what SI have gone for this year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGringoKilla Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 is it just me or does no one score free kicks no more? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickooko Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DaGringoKilla: is it just me or does no one score free kicks no more? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> My freekick hit the wall like 70% of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGringoKilla Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 exacally one whole season with everton i scored 4 goals and arteta was the taker 80% of them hit the wall and deflected out or hit the wall and went in before the patch i remember free kicks were picture perfect Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Themistofelis Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 The shots on goal ratio would be non issue if AI teams didn't capitalize on the "fine tuning" to prevent us from winning games. This is the only truth , there is nothing more frustrating from not winning games you deserve to win , when playing against better teams i am usually down 2-0 after 30'this doesn't happen when i am the best ; i understand that bad luck is part of the game but bad luck is not something that strikes you all the time. I still wonder if this game's purpose is we to have fun with it ot it to have fun with us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kill Rock Stars Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 i score quite a few free kicks, but can't remember the last time i scored one that didn't take a deflection before going in. as far as i can tell, it's poor free kick taker = hits the wall and good free kick taker = hits the wall and goes in Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickooko Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kill Rock Stars: i score quite a few free kicks, but can't remember the last time i scored one that didn't take a deflection before going in. as far as i can tell, it's poor free kick taker = hits the wall and good free kick taker = hits the wall and goes in </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Even with freekick and longshot 18+ my players still hit the wall most of the time. And yes if any freekick was scored, that was because they hit the wall and take a deflection. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
T4RG4 Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Loved FM06... although it leaned towards being slightly easy once you had assembled a great team. FM07 (which I am playing now with patches/updates) is more interesting (a few features extra I like beyond 06) but its a bit too geeky (keeping winning run going etc). FM08 sounds as though its taken that a step further and I've no interest in studying data to constantly keep ahead of the AI. There are those that like doing this, but I think that is the minority. I scribble down targets, ideas and formations on paper as it is, I do not wish to don the white coat too. Please, please bring back the 'fun' of 06 when 09 is released. Surely the stattos could be satisfied in the lower leagues or with financially strapped clubs unable to attract a load of stars. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
syimie Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Football manager is a simulation game right?...so..what does simulation means?????? It means that the game should be as real as possible with the real situation!!!!!30 shots on goal but only manage to get one goal..is that real? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
idafc Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T4RG4: Loved FM06... although it leaned towards being slightly easy once you had assembled a great team. FM07 (which I am playing now with patches/updates) is more interesting (a few features extra I like beyond 06) but its a bit too geeky (keeping winning run going etc). FM08 sounds as though its taken that a step further and I've no interest in studying data to constantly keep ahead of the AI. There are those that like doing this, but I think that is the minority. I scribble down targets, ideas and formations on paper as it is, I do not wish to don the white coat too. Please, please bring back the 'fun' of 06 when 09 is released. Surely the stattos could be satisfied in the lower leagues or with financially strapped clubs unable to attract a load of stars. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I think these 'stattos' represent, perhaps, a fraction of one percent of the FM playing base. Those who've had success playing 08 thusfar, have not presented any consistent empirical evidence of tactical mastery, at least to my satisfaction, and I reckon most tactical success to be accidental. It's impossible to effectively manage the match when two or more tactical functions are glitched to the point of destruction. If SI's business model is to appease three or four people on the Tactics board, and another half dozen in LLM, then they have made a sore miscalculation of FM demography. This overcomplication, and subsequent implosion of the match engine, do nothing but disenfranchise the vast vast vast majority of FM players, most of whom we don't hear about because they play casually and could care less about the online community. Agreed, let's have back the fun of 06, and the dependability of 01/02. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by idafc: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T4RG4: Loved FM06... although it leaned towards being slightly easy once you had assembled a great team. FM07 (which I am playing now with patches/updates) is more interesting (a few features extra I like beyond 06) but its a bit too geeky (keeping winning run going etc). FM08 sounds as though its taken that a step further and I've no interest in studying data to constantly keep ahead of the AI. There are those that like doing this, but I think that is the minority. I scribble down targets, ideas and formations on paper as it is, I do not wish to don the white coat too. Please, please bring back the 'fun' of 06 when 09 is released. Surely the stattos could be satisfied in the lower leagues or with financially strapped clubs unable to attract a load of stars. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I think these 'stattos' represent, perhaps, a fraction of one percent of the FM playing base. Those who've had success playing 08 thusfar, have not presented any consistent empirical evidence of tactical mastery, at least to my satisfaction, and I reckon most tactical success to be accidental. It's impossible to effectively manage the match when two or more tactical functions are glitched to the point of destruction. If SI's business model is to appease three or four people on the Tactics board, and another half dozen in LLM, then they have made a sore miscalculation of FM demography. This overcomplication, and subsequent implosion of the match engine, do nothing but disenfranchise the vast vast vast majority of FM players, most of whom we don't hear about because they play casually and could care less about the online community. Agreed, let's have back the fun of 06, and the dependability of 01/02. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> what is fun anyway? I agree with you that 08 is not much of enjoyment, becouse it's too buggy and predictable and repeating. SI too complecated things. you might have exelant team with great form and just becouse you had wrong team talk you can't score??!! I would sugjast to go back to the basics and we'll have fun again. what are the basics. in my opinoum this game has become too robotised. it depends too much on our tactics, team talks, media talks, sliders.... once things looked more like we were dealing with humans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonini90 Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 the most annoying is that no striker will round off the keeper to score an easy goal...they will always try a shot...even with 20 finishing.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backpackant Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the most annoying is that no striker will round off the keeper to score an easy goal...they will always try a shot...even with 20 finishing.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Is your striker set to "run with ball" frequently? I'm in 2010 and Stancu and Haynes do this every three games or so. Haynes got a hattrick in Europe against some pants team doing that every time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant: Haynes got a hattrick in Europe against some pants team doing that every time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Y-Fronts United? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnoldzhu Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the most annoying is that no striker will round off the keeper to score an easy goal...they will always try a shot...even with 20 finishing.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Is your striker set to "run with ball" frequently? I'm in 2010 and Stancu and Haynes do this every three games or so. Haynes got a hattrick in Europe against some pants team doing that every time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> That's where the problem is. Round-off goalkeeper is not a tactical thing. It only relates to the player himself. You don't have to tell Ronaldo to run with ball often to make him round-off goalkeeper when chance comes up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncherdave Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 most players in real life shoot instead of trying to round the keeper anyway, i dont see this as any problem at all. i think people are just wishing every striker would try to round the keeper because scoring from shots in a one-on-one situation is so unlikely now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maviarab Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Got knock out of club world championship and Carling Cup quarter final in a week because of this ********. They just simply hold out for 0-0 than win easily on penalties, the user as usual still can't win a shootout even after the patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Lol, if you then lose on penelties, its your players not the game. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Morale is superb and always give positive team talks </div></BLOCKQUOTE> You are aware using same team talk constantly has as much influence on your players as tipping them a couple quid after the match? Fed up of reading this thread now, is very pointless, but I will leave with this quote... <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The game is very difficult and there aren't really any plug & play solutions. The tips suggested for controlling your SOG ailments are typically correct but extremely broad. This is because every team & opponent is made up of different players, morale levels, etc. and it's very important to realize this before you breeze through the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Which to me sums it up perfectly. You want something easy and no btrainer go play PEs or FIFA, there are no fancy graphics here, no storyline, no bullet time, no explosions, sexy women. Its a management sim, and one that tries to the best there is. So this will take 'time' on your behalf to understand the 'game' and 'beat' it, thats what makes the game, the countless hours spent wondering why something isnt working, why your star striker missed 5 sitters and is depressed and hates your wife, why your new defensive mid wants to leave the club, why you managed to beat the rank favourite in the cup semi final against the odds and the fans love you, (takes deep breath) why you spend hours searching for the right player, reading scout reports. Damnit people, the game is 'all about' spending hours doing all these little things as in essence, there is nothing else to do in the game... As others have said, there are way too many variables involved in deciding how, when and why a player missed a sitter (if SI do in fact go to those lengths in their coding) and at the end of the day millions play and enjoy the game, a few rant and rave at how they have been deprived of their hard earned cash in exchange for a broken game etc etc blah blah blah. Had enough, mind fried with all the nonsense and arguing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So this will take 'time' on your behalf to understand the 'game' and 'beat' it, thats what makes the game, the countless hours spent wondering why something isnt working, why your star striker missed 5 sitters </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Except SI have acknowledged that this is a problem and they're looking to fix it in the next patch. Y'know, just saying. Unless SI are wrong and you think the game should remain as is regarding this issue? It's not like they coded it or anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca72 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Maviarab: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Got knock out of club world championship and Carling Cup quarter final in a week because of this ********. They just simply hold out for 0-0 than win easily on penalties, the user as usual still can't win a shootout even after the patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Lol, if you then lose on penelties, its your players not the game. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Morale is superb and always give positive team talks </div></BLOCKQUOTE> You are aware using same team talk constantly has as much influence on your players as tipping them a couple quid after the match? Fed up of reading this thread now, is very pointless, but I will leave with this quote... <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The game is very difficult and there aren't really any plug & play solutions. The tips suggested for controlling your SOG ailments are typically correct but extremely broad. This is because every team & opponent is made up of different players, morale levels, etc. and it's very important to realize this before you breeze through the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Which to me sums it up perfectly. You want something easy and no btrainer go play PEs or FIFA, there are no fancy graphics here, no storyline, no bullet time, no explosions, sexy women. Its a management sim, and one that tries to the best there is. So this will take 'time' on your behalf to understand the 'game' and 'beat' it, thats what makes the game, the countless hours spent wondering why something isnt working, why your star striker missed 5 sitters and is depressed and hates your wife, why your new defensive mid wants to leave the club, why you managed to beat the rank favourite in the cup semi final against the odds and the fans love you, (takes deep breath) why you spend hours searching for the right player, reading scout reports. Damnit people, the game is 'all about' spending hours doing all these little things as in essence, there is nothing else to do in the game... As others have said, there are way too many variables involved in deciding how, when and why a player missed a sitter (if SI do in fact go to those lengths in their coding) and at the end of the day millions play and enjoy the game, a few rant and rave at how they have been deprived of their hard earned cash in exchange for a broken game etc etc blah blah blah. Had enough, mind fried with all the nonsense and arguing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> You make a fair point, however i don't agree with the "if you don't like it go get Fifa Manager arguement"...I've heard it a lot recently. FM is without out doubt the finest example of a football managment game. The layout is the best, the transfers, the whole lot. It is fair however to say that it is difficult, and can be very time consuming if you find it difficult. Whilst i agree the post recently have got a bit vitriolic, but i don't think a little more simplicity and less bugs is too much to ask. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeztah Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by macca72: You make a fair point, however i don't agree with the "if you don't like it go get Fifa Manager arguement"...I've heard it a lot recently. FM is without out doubt the finest example of a football managment game. The layout is the best, the transfers, the whole lot. It is fair however to say that it is difficult, and can be very time consuming if you find it difficult. Whilst i agree the post recently have got a bit vitriolic, but i don't think a little more simplicity and less bugs is too much to ask. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I think the core of this problem lies in this: The user does not know what SI means with everything and how everything does work! One good example of this is closing down: there has been numerous posts on this topic alone in the tactics forum and what I've learned there is that no one can explain how it actually works. The same goes with tempo, width, mentality etc. And if someone did, what is the difference with defensive line set up at 8 and 9? What about the difference between 8 and 12? To me, this is really the problem with tactics at the moment. User/Player can not know what he is doing! He might have a clue or hunch, but is that really enough? I think not. And how about knowing how everything works would affect the game? Would FM become too easy? I think not as long as AI has some sense too. So how to solve this all? Firstly I think that we need less options on the sliders. All those little tweaks.. Does it really matter that much to change mentality from 9 to 8 in order to be a bit more defensive on the pitch? How about if the scale would be like 1-7 with 1 being extremely defensive, 4 being neutral and 7 being all out attack. Would that really diminish managers options in the game or make the game unplayable? No. What effect it would have is that you could maybe actually see the difference on the pitch. Which brings me to my second point. We need VISUAL INFORMATION about how our tactic setup affects players on the pitch! For example if you increase closing down from 10 to say 15 it would be SHOWN that how that affects to your players closing down area. This way you could set up your team to play for example like this: lets sit quite deep and fall behind the ball but as soon as the opponent is trying to get to our half of the pitch our wingers start to press them hard. Nowadays this is kind of "guess and hope for the best" situation. This way we would not have to GUESS SIs interpretions about sliders - we could actually see how our choices affect our teams play. That would make the game way easier to understand for long time FMers and also for the novices! Also less bugs would be fine because it is the bugs (and unrealistic things) that take all the enjoyment - And me - away from the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
borivoje213 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 The problem I experience is that the AI teams score a greater percentage of the chances they create. in the majority of games i created far more, and of an equal or better quality, yet still find a large number of results going against me. A couple of the members here have suggested reasons for the wasted chances, i can tell you this: change of tempo, formation, mentality, quality of players, all result in the same problem occuring. I don't understand how this can possibly be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
borivoje213 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Furthermore i think the people who are saying there isn't a problem aren't actually giving themselves enough credit or are using superior teams. I know that im a good manager at this game with coventry, because the game tells me im 80-1 and likely to battle against relegation yet i end up in the top half of the table. what i don't understand is quite the game persistently gives me superior stats across the board in most matches yet im not justly rewarded for them, i don't mean in a game by game level, i just mean over the course of the season. i expect the odd result to go against me, but mathematically speaking shouldn't these things balance themselves out? if i count the number of points any AI team deserves statisically throughout a season, it will be within 5 points of what they have, 10 at a push. I find that statisically i'm adrift by 20 points. Every season, regardless of the tempo, formation, players used etc. its incredibly odd. and perhaps those gaining some form of success are actually doing it against far tougher odds than they think or, and i stress this isn't an accusation and is very unlikely, they could be inadvertently triggering a game exploit they are unaware of (like i say that is 99.9% not the case but is always a possible). it really does confuse me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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