Where has the fun gone?

[Rupal]

No I am not playing the offside.

They are not brilliant decision wise (they are very poor players - this is LLM) so I suppose that could be it. But lack of creative freedom ought to go some way to mitigate against that I think.

I don't close down strikers - just show onto weaker foot. Equally, never close mark them cos defenders get skinned.

[jod123]

I cannot really think of anything else to be honest. Maybe one of the better tactical people on here can help. I can only think you have a conflicting instuction somewhere but don't know where. Sorry I cannot figure out if there is a problem in your tactical instructions or if it is the game.

[Kenwyne]

I have this problem too - sometimes a central defender will rush out to close down a midfielder, who just picks the spot he's left behind with a pass. It's quite infuriating, especially when I set then to close down rarely and have no creative freedom. Usually they go to close down a player who is already being marked by a midfielder anyway.

[andysafc]

I cannot really think of anything else to be honest. Maybe one of the better tactical people on here can help. I can only think you have a conflicting instuction somewhere but don't know where. Sorry I cannot figure out if there is a problem in your tactical instructions or if it is the game.

That is where the problem lies. To many people don't know where the problem lies.

The game is trying to make us Managers, but we are not managers. We are dreamers - the game ought to let us dream instread it gives us nightmares.

[Yasko75]

You see your last sentence. That is probably where you are going wrong. Constantly changing your tactics just makes things worse. What other boring stuff are you referring to?

No, i dont. I use same tactic with small tweaks.

[Dicko99]

the game is no fun no more because its rediculously hard to control your players, for example why cannot i say to my wingers 'hug the touchline' or to my striker 'play on the shoulder of the last man' these are simple instructions which i cannot imply. also the match engine is an absolute joke and forever whom is responsible needs to be sacked or shot im not fussed which but they cant seriously expect us to sit and watch this shyte

[jod123]

That is where the problem lies. To many people don't know where the problem lies.

The game is trying to make us Managers, but we are not managers. We are dreamers - the game ought to let us dream instread it gives us nightmares.

I don't know whether to respond incase Rupal or somebody else has a go at me again.

You can still be successful on the game though.

[Yasko75]

CM 01/02 for me.

If someone would update the fixtures&rules and squads(and date of course) i wouldnt even look at FM09.... :-P

Thats something i really want from SI(or who ever has the rights), just and updated cm01/02, i would pay the full price just to enjoy this game again!!!

[jod123]

the game is no fun no more because its rediculously hard to control your players, for example why cannot i say to my wingers 'hug the touchline' or to my striker 'play on the shoulder of the last man' these are simple instructions which i cannot imply. also the match engine is an absolute joke and forever whom is responsible needs to be sacked or shot im not fussed which but they cant seriously expect us to sit and watch this shyte

Why have you to resort posting the rubbish you did at the end of that?

Other people who have a similar opinion to you did not post that as there is no need.

[Stazinjo]

fun si gone,forget about it,hehe,but SI have made the game so "tacticly complicated" that even they cant win,just read that thread where a guy has c. ronaldo,ibra,robinho and he cant win,don tell me its the tactic,it SI,

[jod123]

If someone would update the fixtures&rules and squads(and date of course) i wouldnt even look at FM09.... :-P

Thats something i really want from SI(or who ever has the rights), just and updated cm01/02, i would pay the full price just to enjoy this game again!!!

The date could definitely not be changed. Neither can rules. Squads can be and I think someone said there is an updated squads for 2009 for it.

[jod123]

fun si gone,forget about it,hehe,but SI have made the game so "tacticly complicated" that even they cant win,just read that thread where a guy has c. ronaldo,ibra,robinho and he cant win,don tell me its the tactic,it SI,

I am afraid if you have those type of players and you cannot win on the game, it is very much the player that is at fault and not SI.

[Rupal]

I don't know whether to respond incase Rupal or somebody else has a go at me again.

You can still be successful on the game though.

I never meant to 'have a go'.

I just thought that you were on a loser trying to make people who found that things weren't working like they wanted and that there was a lack of 'fun' believe that all was well!

My husband doesn't think I nag too much.......

[anagain]

I just played another match - identical tactics and lost 2-0. But again - the 2 goals were given away by my central defenders stupidly pushing up and leaving an enormous gap. They aren't told to close down far up the pitch, they are told not to make forward runs but this still happens. Creative freedom is virtually nil.

Maybe there is a simple explanation which I'm missing. If there is, please somebody tell me. Otherwise, my opinion that the game has serious faults is only reinforced by things like that.

Do you have your defenders set to move up at corners and free kicks? Or do you have them set to 'stay back'?

What is the difference in mentality between your keeper and defence?

What is the difference in mentality between your defence and midfield?

There are a number of reasons why defenders will move up the field. There are also a number of ways that an attacker will find space on your goal, regardless of where your defence are. If there is too much of a gap between defence and midfield they will get in there.

You also have to take into account the speed of the attacker. A pacey player will find it easier to move beyond your defence. I always set my defence close to deep when playing against a pacey frontline.

I really don't think that one match is enough to suggest that the match engine is seriously flawed.

[anagain]

There's one concern floating around in my head about what everyone is asking. Every year people come on here and complain about this and that, but one of the major points is often that people wish SI would concentrate on getting the game working before they add new features.

Now people are adamant that SI change the existing outlook of the game for a new tactical system.

That's more work for SI and more tweaking of the game with new components.

It's not necessarily true that giving a list of commands will be more intuitive either. You will likely find yourself asking 'why can't I tell my players to do suchandsuch' because that command is not given. There will always be something missing.

I think the game would be better off keeping the sliders and expanding on it.

As long as PaulC sticks to his guns and maintains that the depth of FM will never be diminished, and that it will never be dumbed down, then I guess all will be ok. I fear that with everything people keep asking for it would be inevitable that the depth would be compromised. It is the nature of people to want things easier. FM is not hard.

[nymanr]

Well there clearly is a issue with the DC players ability to follow instructions.

I constantly have Ferdinand & Vidic drift up field even though i have told them not to.

9/10 games i come up against a 4-5-1 where opposition only tries to play a long through ball to the lone striker. I leave both DC's back as i know this is the only weapon the AI uses against me and 2 against one i should win.

Even when i have

DefenciveLine = 1

DC mentality = 1

CreativeFreedom = 1

ClosingDown= 1

Marking = Zonal

Marking tight = No

ForwardRuns = rarely

No opposition instructions.

No offside trap

Still they wander upfield and stand next to the lone striker.

Then opposition hits the long ball and my DC's freeze for a second or 2 before they go after the striker who did not hesitate and is now clean through.

It doesn't matter that Ferdinand is quicker and faster then the lone striker who is running with the ball because he will just never catch him. (haven't seen that happen yet)

And there isn't a difference when i have a DMC to guard the center area.

Nothing helps.

The game looses its "fun" factor pretty quickly when players won't follow orders you have given them.

More to the point i feel the fun/addicting factor was lost when the game slowed down.

More and more pointless boring media/team talks that do nothing more than slow you down and give you unrealistic pitfalls. Media, press team talks are "realistic" as a manager does things like that in real life, but they are unrealistic as they in reality have very little to no affect on real players. I understand that as they are in the game they have to have some purpose, but in the end it just is so unrealistic.

This has made it harder and harder to actually get any longterm games as it takes to long to get through seasons.

[Rupal]

Do you have your defenders set to move up at corners and free kicks? Or do you have them set to 'stay back'?

What is the difference in mentality between your keeper and defence?

What is the difference in mentality between your defence and midfield?

There are a number of reasons why defenders will move up the field. There are also a number of ways that an attacker will find space on your goal, regardless of where your defence are. If there is too much of a gap between defence and midfield they will get in there.

You also have to take into account the speed of the attacker. A pacey player will find it easier to move beyond your defence. I always set my defence close to deep when playing against a pacey frontline.

I really don't think that one match is enough to suggest that the match engine is seriously flawed.

I have already said that my defenders were very deep and there is a 2 clicks difference between GK/DEF/Midfield/Attack. My assman makes no mention of any gaps.

In the matches I referred to, as I said, my defence was set deep and my central defenders were set not to make forward runs and closing down was in their own area.

What I want, very simply, is for the tactical system to be sufficiently responsive so that defenders who are set to defend deep, not close down far up the pitch, not to tight mark, not to make forward runs, etc, with mentality sliders not more than 2 clicks more attacking than the GK do NOT charge out to tackle an oncoming midfielder like bulls at gates. Somebody else posted that they had exactly the same trouble, so it isn't just me.

Edit - oh yes, I forgot to mention that the goals were not after I had had corners.

[jod123]

I never meant to 'have a go'.

I just thought that you were on a loser trying to make people who found that things weren't working like they wanted and that there was a lack of 'fun' believe that all was well!

My husband doesn't think I nag too much.......

Don't worry, you did not really have a go.

However I feel like I am the one that is nagging as it seems I have posted similar things all day on this topic in this thread and others. :o

[cave_canem]

while growing up i never had much interest in football i was strange like that but everyday befor and after school i used to cross the road and go to my friends house to play cm07/08 i couldnt get enough of it my mum and dad used to say if your not in for your tea at 5.30pm you go without many a nights i went bed with a slice of bread i pinched out of the bread bin because of cm07/08 what im saying is that game got me hooked and interested in football and boy did i suffer in cm07/08 if i remember correctly you just chose your formation made sure you had the best players and off you went simple has that why did i get such a buzz off this game? its because it was chuffin enjoyable and very easy and thats what i belive these games are about you need to get some enjoyment out of the game not turn it off when you get man utd away because you havnt got a bloody clue what your doing and your scared of getting a pasting off the big boys i personally have not got a clue what im doing 99% of the time but i still play it because its the game i grew up with but i dont enjoy it one bit in fact im scared to turn it on!!!

[Scoham]

If someone would update the fixtures&rules and squads(and date of course) i wouldnt even look at FM09.... :-P

Thats something i really want from SI(or who ever has the rights), just and updated cm01/02, i would pay the full price just to enjoy this game again!!!

People still make unofficial updates for CM 01/02, and have managed to change things like the date (though not competition rules), see here-

http://www.champman0102.co.uk/forum/

[Saintjonny]

The fun has gone because this game got seriously involved in micro-management, where you need a degree in to understand what effect each slider does.

Basically a million different pieces of a puzzle and youve got to work out how to solve it to win a game...one football game...and that doesnt necessarily mean you'll win your next game because they jumbled the pieces for that as well.

[Argel]

I don't think that a lot of this is true tbh.

I enjoy the micro management, and I enjoy the new features, but like Kenwyne, I am frustrated that the very evident bugs were not picked up either pre-release or in one of the TWO patches already out. Yes, some bugs came with the patches, but some of the 3D bugs, what happened there? I can guarantee that in your next match you will see countkess examples of frustrating play due to the match engine. If a tester can't log that within minutes, I don't know what the hell they are doing.

[Some Guy!]

When defenders stand on the striker in a line and wait until he's past them, they're probably trying an offside trap and buggering it.

[Rupal]

Just restarted a new save.

First friendly, 3 injuries (inevitably, one long term to my best player), missed a penalty, had big advantage in CCCs, possession, passes, shots, tackles, etc, etc. Tried various small slider adjustments with no obvious effect. Of course, lost to goal in the 92nd minute. The old kick in the teeth at the end.

It's the same old story, I'm afraid. That match just typified the way in which I find that the game goes. Yes, I know these things happen and are realistic but they just occur too often for my taste.

You dominate the play so there can't be THAT much wrong with what you are doing, your tactics aren't completely hopeless but you know that you are going to lose because of the way in which the match is set up.

It's that feeling that the AI is simply stroppy that takes a lot of the fun out of the game.

[GrahamL]

I think Rupal's example has explained the problem very well.

That''s what? 15 different possible solutions to the problem? And none of them seem to work.

I guess the thing is, in real life, you could talk to your CBs and ask them what the heck they were doing up there - or you'd have been watching the whole 90 minutes so they wouldn't just suddenly appear miles away from where you want them with no explanation of why.

Maybe the problem is there needs to be even more information/options?! Proper feedback from the ass man, proper interation with the players ("why did you do that?", "don't do that again").

Maybe the game has fallen between 2 stools right now, that it's pressing onwards to a better version, a more accessible, more logical version - but right now it has all the underlying functionality it needs to be realistic, it just the user interface isn't high enough level for a fair chunk of us to be able to pick up and play.

Maybe I should have faith in SI to plough on and eventually come out the other end with a very impressive, workable game - that this is just teething problems, albeit 20 years into the development.

But right now, I'm not enjoying it enough to see me sticking with it in the future. I may find myself a less realistic, but more fun, game to tide me over until SI stop working on realism and start thinking about accessibility.

[thebigman1985]

paul c, make the sliders more intuitive then, number the level the slider is on or give a heading of how advanced the pressing is on a more detailed level

the slider system is not the best imo and i fully understand it amd can win at the game

maybe there needs to be more detailed instructions for individuals

[chopper99]

I haven't read the whole thread as there is too much of it to get through at work, but I have to agree that the fun has gone out of the game for me.

I simply cannot get into FM09, and I've tried. For me it's not down to the micromanagement, it's simply down to the trial and error feel of the entire tactical system. It just seems that the fun has been taken out of the game to satisfy the few people in the tactics forum who are up in arms every time someone manages to create a tactic that exploits flaws in the AI. But why does it matter? Not all of us want to use tactics that exploit the AI, but we do want a tactical interface that is in some way connected to real football and which does not involve a ridiculous number of slider combinations that, even when you adjust them, seem to have no baring on what is actually happening on the pitch. So if having a good tactical system means that some people can exploit holes in the AI then so be it, rather that than what we have now.

Fortunately Paul C has said that this is being looked at for the next game, so hopefully it won't just be the people in the tactics forum who get what they want for FM10. Since the arrows were removed the tactical side of the game has just become pointless for me.

Rupal has touched on another good point, and that is the fact that the AI seems to be far too proficiant at getting back into games that most of the time it should lose. I can happily accept that a rubbish team will push men forward when behind in a match and go for broke. I can accept that if I make no changes then they may force the ball into the net through sheer numbers, but will be at risk from my counter attacks. What I can't accept is when a poor team suddenly starts playing like Arsenal just because it's the last 10 minutes of a match and they're losing.

So for me, who loved '08 but could see how frustrating it could be for some, '09 is a bit of a step backwards for everyone other than the minority of people who love tactial complexity to the extreme.

[Squirmy Rooter 2.0]

I guess the thing is, in real life, you could talk to your CBs and ask them what the heck they were doing up there...

Maybe the problem is there needs to be even more information/options?! Proper feedback from the ass man, proper interation with the players ("why did you do that?", "don't do that again").

I think this is a very important point.

It also highlights for me why I never find that the "realism" argument carrys much weight. It's no use having certain individual elements labelled as realistic, if the package as a whole is far from it. And without this important weapon of "proper interaction" in a managers arsenal, the game is still a long way from being considered truly realistic.

Now I am not expecting the game to be truly realistic in every respect, as I know that is not possible. But by the same token, some of the problems that people have talked about in this thread and many others should not necessarily be dismissed because "that's realistic", because in real life there are often many other factors/abilities/resources etc. that are not present in FM, but offset/explain/reduce the problem in question.

Being able to hold an actual 2-way conversation with a player, or giving him a right rollicking over a particular incident, for example.

While this may be unfeasible, we need something to fill in the missing pieces instead of just the current void of uncertainty and guesswork. If for instance the match-engine determines that our DC is too high up the pitch and gets caught out because of his decision-making / creative freedom or whatever, then we should be informed of this post-match perhaps by way of a "sorry gaffer, I made a mistake", whereas if it's a tactical error on our part it could be hinted at by the assistant manager, or a TV pundit etc.. Even just one or two of these per match, we would learn from them and better develop our understandings of the match engine and tactical interface on our own. Whereas at the moment, as people on here are pointing out, we don't know if it's our players, our tactics, some external influences, or just plain luck.

[drambuie2]

Rupal has touched on another good point, and that is the fact that the AI seems to be far too proficiant at getting back into games that most of the time it should lose.

This sums up exactly the feelings I have so far ... playing a Man Utd game just to get used to the engine, its nuances etc. Constantly outplaying the opposition only to find second half the AI totally susses out what to do/change to counter me and invariably turns the game around (in chances if not sometimes goals - lord knows how annoying it would be with a 'lesser' team with worse defenders etc). Second half is a totally different game usually. Again reasonable to happen sometimes, but not so often against a class team.

This AI 'knowledge' of what to change to have such an impact is the big negative that I see in this version so far - I really don't see how people can say they are playing a consistent tactic, having success, see no major issues - if they are then good luck to them - because my experience so far has seen way too may comebacks and recoveries if i try to stick to one basic gameplan (whether it be the last 10 minute rush, a wonder goal from nothing, a '1 ccc but by god the ai will score from it' sort of doomed feeling)

[Some Guy!]

Look, in 6 years the AI hasn't "sussed" out my flat 4-4-2... I doubt if you've put significant effort in that they'd have "sussed" out your's.

I'd think that you'd be going badly in the second half because of a poor team talk by you coupled with a good one from them.

[PjW_JJJ]

Yeah, right. Clicking on "encourage" when the AI deems "pleased" more appropriate is an outrageous misjudgement.

Never mind the AI being hardwired to overturn whatever superiority you've so far had, custodial sentences should be handed out.

What next? Expecting a modicum of professionalism from your players?

[chopper99]

Look, in 6 years the AI hasn't "sussed" out my flat 4-4-2... I doubt if you've put significant effort in that they'd have "sussed" out your's.

I'd think that you'd be going badly in the second half because of a poor team talk by you coupled with a good one from them.

I'm sorry but this just holds no water whatsoever.

So you're telling me that a chosing the wrong one of 5 team talk options can lead to a poor team playing like a fantastic team in the second half of a match just because their manager happened to pick the correct option out of the 5?

Please don't assume that just because you've managed to avoid this problem that automatically it is not a problem. The sheer number of people putting forward far more reasoned arguments than yours suggests otherwise.

On top of that I think you'll find many of us do spend a fair amount of time on the tactical side of the game, and have done for years now. The simple fact is (in my opinion anyway) that for many versions now the game has been moving forward but the tactical side has only been changed to meet the needs of a minority of people in the tactics forum who don't like so called 'super tactics' being created. As a result of this much of the fun that many people found in the game has been drastically reduced.

[Svenc]

If Football Manager was a late 80s, early 90s Microprose UK game it would ship with with a 200 pages of manual, an extra booklet explaining the history of modern football tactics, and a copy protection wheel to boot. Thing is, DVD cases have taken over. SI aren't Microprose. Gary Lineker's last goal at the World Cup is but a distant memory. Leggings are bloody dead. Life ain't easy these days.

I don't think any kind of depth has to be sacrificed - and this ain't what SI are aiming at anyway. They know they're best and the only ones at what they're doing. For a more light-hearted approach at football sims there's tons of games already. Take a look at how they handled things with their 3d match engine: one goal surely was to attract a bigger crowd, but they sure didn't chicken out on this. It's still their unrivaled match engine running underneath, just with a semi-shiny coating this time around.

While I'm a big supporter of their sim approach, period, I still haven't found out in what kind of way exactly certain options affect the game myself. Take the "counter attack" tick box, for instance. I can order my players to pull back, to not close down like silly and launch quick and long passes by setting sliders. So what exactly does this tick box do then?

It's easy to make a game complicated. It's another to add more depth to it entirelly. At times it's a bit puzzling why SI would still keep their steep learning curve. Maybe it's because FM has its audience established already. There's hundreds of thousands of people holding their breath over every release. But there's tons of ways to make player familiar with a game's mechanics, even though FM just leaves you in the cold as is. Manuals are one thing - and FM's is a bit slim. But rather than shoehorning another 300 pages of manual into a box that would make slimsy DVD cases soon collapse and publishers ache, how about this: a truly interactive match engine tutorial. Or any kind of in-game tutorial at all - the rather basic advisor barely counts, really.

That said, I still won promotion spots and all in some of my very first FM seasons. With all those options, the game can be played pretty casually no doubt.

[auto98uk]

Ok regarding the tactics maybe my point is a bit off, But before fm08 i had never come online to find tactics or anything of the sort to help me play my game and enjoy it, My point is the tactics are so in depth now im having to come online read post after post just to find something that i feel may help and of recent never does.

As for the buying players, Millions yes but only on 2 or 3 players at the most and i keep most of the squad intact unless i find them to be of no use to the team so i doubt that would cause any moral problems.

As i have stated on many occasions i want to beable to enjoy a game without the NEED to do anything but put the game in the drive and play with my own input. This is simply not the case for me anymore as even you have stated you needed to read other peoples theorys on this forum to get your enjoyment.

Why should i have to do this to enjoy a game? What would i do if i didnt have a internet connection (Apart from not being able to whinge on here ).

Thing is, this isn't an arcade game where losing means you have to start again - losing is PART of this game, and it seems some people can't accept that. You (i think it was you ) said earlier that you keep restarting - that may well be the problem, you aren't giving yourself any opportunity to learn how to play the game. I haven't ever looked on the tactics forum for help with my tactics, every one of them is made by myself after playing, and often losing, for a good while. Eventually, you work it out. Anything else and the game becomes pointless as you know you could go buy the new one, put it on, win everything. this imo would be extremely boring, and i would not get any feeling of achievement from it

[GrahamL]

Thing is, this isn't an arcade game where losing means you have to start again - losing is PART of this game, and it seems some people can't accept that. You (i think it was you ) said earlier that you keep restarting - that may well be the problem, you aren't giving yourself any opportunity to learn how to play the game.

That may have been me, and here's why I do it.

After 15 or so matches, my team is usually in such a mess that it seems beyond saving. Morale is rock bottom, players are losing confidence in me and I'm getting at least one guy red carded in every match. I don't believe changing one of my strikers from "Make forward runs - often" to "normal" is going to recover that. Once I've given my tactic a chance to bed in, things have gone so badly wrong that I can't go tweaking it!

Maybe I am just giving bad team talks. Maybe I can't design a realistic tactic. But I used to be good at this game. As I've said before though, I've taken someone elses tactics, bought some recommended players and I'm doing OK now (4th in Scottish Div 3 at christmas) - so maybe this team will hold it together long enough for me to start to understand how it all works. But normally I'm at this stage a couple of weeks after buying the game, rather than a couple of months and several hours on internet forums...

[Argel]

I totally agree with sticking it out, but I'm 6 seasons in, and I only have one save. I literally only play one game for every version of FM, and this one (so far) has enough frustrating bugs to get me posting on here.

For the record: I don't want it to be easier. Like I said, I play one save, so the harder the better (ahem) for me, as I'm in it to win long term, but I also want to have the challenge, rather than having things handed to me as so many who play it do.

[ottey_swe]

Guess I'm speaking for many when I say it was more enjoyable when the tactics were simple and you won easier. These sliders and infuriating 90 minute opposition goals take all the fun away. That's why I'm considering going back to 03/04, easy & simple. Sometimes less is more. The one thing that holds me back is the speed of that edition, as you can't run many leagues without lag.

[Argel]

Why would anyone want FM to be easier in that way?

[auto98uk]

Why would anyone want FM to be easier in that way?

Heh, can you imagine the slating for si if they went backwards like that

[wwfan]

I haven't read the whole thread as there is too much of it to get through at work, but I have to agree that the fun has gone out of the game for me.

I simply cannot get into FM09, and I've tried. For me it's not down to the micromanagement, it's simply down to the trial and error feel of the entire tactical system. It just seems that the fun has been taken out of the game to satisfy the few people in the tactics forum who are up in arms every time someone manages to create a tactic that exploits flaws in the AI. But why does it matter? Not all of us want to use tactics that exploit the AI, but we do want a tactical interface that is in some way connected to real football and which does not involve a ridiculous number of slider combinations that, even when you adjust them, seem to have no baring on what is actually happening on the pitch. So if having a good tactical system means that some people can exploit holes in the AI then so be it, rather that than what we have now.

Fortunately Paul C has said that this is being looked at for the next game, so hopefully it won't just be the people in the tactics forum who get what they want for FM10. Since the arrows were removed the tactical side of the game has just become pointless for me.

Rupal has touched on another good point, and that is the fact that the AI seems to be far too proficiant at getting back into games that most of the time it should lose. I can happily accept that a rubbish team will push men forward when behind in a match and go for broke. I can accept that if I make no changes then they may force the ball into the net through sheer numbers, but will be at risk from my counter attacks. What I can't accept is when a poor team suddenly starts playing like Arsenal just because it's the last 10 minutes of a match and they're losing.

So for me, who loved '08 but could see how frustrating it could be for some, '09 is a bit of a step backwards for everyone other than the minority of people who love tactical complexity to the extreme.

I can understand why you may feel that, but it isn't actually true. SI's focus is on creating the best possible football management simulation, which requires the best possible ME. Removing arrows was entirely down the increased performance of the ME in arrowless form, not down to the desire to quash crazy tactics. I wrote the original document detailing the advantages of removing arrows, and although I mentioned crazy tactics, it was as a minor afterthought tucked away near the end. The major issue was the integrity of the ME and the horrible robotic runs of arrowed players.

Although many people complain that they have to change tactics every time the ME changes, there has been a red ribbon of tactical consistency that has gone through FM07 to FM09. I barely changed the tactics I used in 07 to play 09. Although my posts explaining the tactics are long, I believe my system is simple and logical and reflects how professional football is played in reality. By employing it, I enjoy the ME and the game. However, the major weakness in FM09 is the lack of help a manager is given to reach a stage in which they can employ such tactics. Because in previous editions, the arrows could 'patch' weaknesses in a tactic, a lot of people have never come to terms with the holistic methods of tactical design and simply tweaked until they find something that worked. You can't do that now. There is a serious lack of support for tactical design, leading to a lot of user frustration, but doing it well makes the game eminently playable. The big challenge for SI is to help everybody to do it well without making the game too easy.

As an example:

Even when i have

DefenciveLine = 1

DC mentality = 1

CreativeFreedom = 1

ClosingDown= 1

Marking = Zonal

Marking tight = No

ForwardRuns = rarely

No opposition instructions.

No offside trap

These are horrible, horrible defensive settings. The user needs to know this. The only way they find out is by losing matches, or via the AssMan's 'gap' complaint. There is a lack of guidance for the user who wants to design a certain type of defence but has no idea even how to start, as the above settigns indicate.

The most common issue for me is tactics that are reasonably well-designed in an attacking sense but terrible defensvely. I've seen a plethora of these. If you have a good team, you will do well when the opposition is defending, as your good players and good atatcking settings ensure solid play. However, when they are forced to attack, you are dead in the water as the defensive settings are horrible. In general the game doesn't help you to understand why or how this is so, so frustration sets in. When you add some of the ME bugs to the equation, then all hell breaks loose.

The final common problem is the expectation that micromangerial tactical tweaking helps. It doesn't. Not a jot. Not until you have a macro understanding of what you are doing in any given situation and have plans to put that in motion. From that point on you can micromanage a player's instructions to get him performing exactly as you envision. If you can't reach a macro level of understanding (the lack of which is a fault of the game and a mojor reason informing TT&F09) then micro tweaking is a total waste of time, leading to more frustration and loss of enjoyment. First and foremost, SI need to address the macro. Micromanaging is not fun. Macromanaging is.

[grumpygeek]

Honestly I think the problem here is the disconnect some people feel between the settings and results.

SI have done a good thing with the post match analysis. I believe expanding this significantly would allow people to improve tactics on their own. Especially if there were suggested improvements. The improvements would help newer players fix most of the big problems in the team whilst still allowing tactical depth for more experienced people.

For example, the opposing team is exploiting a gap between your midfield and defense. The manager could 'suggest' telling a midfielder to drop back, or possibly to give the midfield a more defensive mentality, or limit forward runs, so they don't disappear as soon as the defense get the ball. (This is just a trivial example and not intended as real advice!). Anyway - the game could easily identify the big holes and allow people to play with tactics while getting good feedback. It's not always obvious to a new player how to fix some of these things.

[pauly1616]

Couple of things:

Firstly, no the game wont be dumbed down. The slider system will remain for those who want to use it.

Secondly, FM's ( and CM when we did it ) core value is that it creates a realistic world of football that the user is placed into. That principle will never change while I have a say

It's not about dumbing it down it's just about reasonable information. The game has become so confusing now and there is really no indication apart from some very vague and average assistant feedback as to what you're doing wrong. Unless you want to watch the game in full match mode you need more help decoding the slider system because at the moment it is so frustrating it hurts. Add to that that you need to occasionally pander to the game with things like long shots settings and it all becomes painful.

For me it's not down to the micromanagement, it's simply down to the trial and error feel of the entire tactical system.

... we do want a tactical interface that is in some way connected to real football and which does not involve a ridiculous number of slider combinations that, even when you adjust them, seem to have no baring on what is actually happening on the pitch.

couldn't have said it better...

[Rupal]

wwfan doesn't seem altogether to be grasping the point which (I think) nymanr is making.

The settings quoted may be 'horrible' defensively. But the point is that the defenders should FOLLOW those settings. They don't appear to. How good or bad the settings are isn't relevant to that basic point, surely?

That's what causes the problem. Because the player does not appear to follow the instructions which you are trying to give, it becomes difficult to work out how you should adjust his settings.

Put very simply, the pattern of the match which we see unfolding on the pitch does not correspond with our intention when we chose our settings. I believe that this is now much more obvious because of 3D. To revert to an example which I gave, there is something awry in my eyes if I have made my team settings (which are likely 'horrible' too) to defend deep and counter attack only to find my players spending most of their time camped in the opponents' half. The fact that I won 3-0 isn't really relevant - it's the way in which the match played out that feels totally at odds with my intentions. The tactics 'worked' in the sense that the result was OK. They didn't 'work' in the sense that my team failed to play as I had intended (or didn't appear to do so and I can only judge from what I actually see).

The relationships between global and individual settings and the effects which these have are, frankly, often as clear as mud. If there is an inherent logic to what is going on then there is a real need for some sort of guide to explain how this relationship works. Lectures about the joys of macromanagement are not going to help very much.

In another thread, somebody complained that the situation was rather like discovering that to improve your car's performance you don't only have to fit a spoiler and beef up the engine and transmission but also must raise the pressure in the left hand rear tyre! And if you have your wiper speed wrong that will blow the whole thing.........

[Some Guy!]

Actually the pressure in one tire could have a huge impact...

[Rupal]

Actually the pressure in one tire could have a huge impact...

Yes, but you shouldn't find that by raising the pressure in only one tyre your car goes faster!

[PjW_JJJ]

“The simple fact is (in my opinion anyway) that for many versions now the game has been moving forward but the tactical side has only been changed to meet the needs of a minority of people in the tactics forum who don't like so called 'super tactics' being created. As a result of this much of the fun that many people found in the game has been drastically reduced.”

Completely agree with Chopper.

This isn’t a live environment where these crackpot, BS theories can be scientifically tested. These pseudo-guru BS merchants who populate the T&TF can come out with whatever claptrap they want and as long as sounds convincing, who knows?

It what is supposed to be a football simulation the tactics have become as close to real life “time on the grass”, as Bobby Robson might put it, as forcing a general to plan a battle with a book of logarithms. Honest – the Coldstream Guards really don’t know how to fight if you don’t relay that EXACT keyhole combination of nonsensical sliders. And if you say “wish luck” when you should have said “no pressure”, they’ll mysteriously forget even how to fire a rifle.

Still, the emperor’s clothes on the other forum say they love it, so it must be good.

[Rupal]

Same thing happened again! A pre-season friendly against a better team. Lost 2-0. No complaints, EXCEPT that, once again, my team was instructed to defend deep and counter attack. In fact, had about 65% of the play, much of it in the opposition half and lost to a breakaway goal and a freak.

Yet again, there seems to be little relationship between what we see and how the team has been told to play. The result is realistic but the way it is arrived at isn't.

I don't want to download tactics. I want to be able to work my own out. The current setup makes it very hard because of the misleading nature of the match play and the lack of clarity in the slider system.

[LAHoward]

This is where my fun has ended with 09.

[Rupal]

And if you say “wish luck” when you should have said “no pressure”, they’ll mysteriously forget even how to fire a rifle.

Still, the emperor’s clothes on the other forum say they love it, so it must be good.

So, so true.

The ridiculous amount of weight attached to team talks (where you often simply don't have the choice that you really want available) and those nonsensical, time wasting, repetitive media briefings is one of the most annoying 'improvements' made by FM09

[wwfan]

wwfan doesn't seem altogether to be grasping the point which (I think) nymanr is making.

The settings quoted may be 'horrible' defensively. But the point is that the defenders should FOLLOW those settings. They don't appear to. How good or bad the settings are isn't relevant to that basic point, surely?

That's what causes the problem. Because the player does not appear to follow the instructions which you are trying to give, it becomes difficult to work out how you should adjust his settings.

Put very simply, the pattern of the match which we see unfolding on the pitch does not correspond with our intention when we chose our settings. I believe that this is now much more obvious because of 3D. To revert to an example which I gave, there is something awry in my eyes if I have made my team settings (which are likely 'horrible' too) to defend deep and counter attack only to find my players spending most of their time camped in the opponents' half. The fact that I won 3-0 isn't really relevant - it's the way in which the match played out that feels totally at odds with my intentions. The tactics 'worked' in the sense that the result was OK. They didn't 'work' in the sense that my team failed to play as I had intended (or didn't appear to do so and I can only judge from what I actually see).

The relationships between global and individual settings and the effects which these have are, frankly, often as clear as mud. If there is an inherent logic to what is going on then there is a real need for some sort of guide to explain how this relationship works. Lectures about the joys of macromanagement are not going to help very much.

In another thread, somebody complained that the situation was rather like discovering that to improve your car's performance you don't only have to fit a spoiler and beef up the engine and transmission but also must raise the pressure in the left hand rear tyre! And if you have your wiper speed wrong that will blow the whole thing.........

Actually, I think they probably do follow the settings. What the defence does in possession and what they do when defending are totally different things. If nymanr expects his defence to drop deep into his own half whenever his team has the ball in the final third, he watches a totally different game of football than I do. What he is, in effect, instructing them to do is not make any defensive move until the FC is ready to pull the trigger. Basically, don't tackle, don't close down, don't mark, don't show onto wrong foot until we have no other option. So, when a through ball comes, they don't even attempt to defend and are thus punished.

When analysing such things, it is impossible to do well without looking at the tactic as a whole. I am making an assumption that the user, being Man Utd, is playing pretty aggressive football, but with a back four that will back off and back off as soon as anyone runs at them. This will also negate the midfield cover being able to do its job, leading to a lot of easy through balls and a lot of one on ones, which is pretty covalent with what nymanr is describing.

The issue is simply one of translation. I see his settings and make my assumption as to the rest of his tactic, making the logic of his problem obvious, because my translation of the ME sliders is a good one. His isn't, which is why he can't read the game and it looks like his instructions are being ignored. I am not missing the point, I am coming at it from a different angle, which is focusing on the paucity of the translation of the sliders into real life footballing terminology. As such, this...

This isn’t a live environment where these crackpot, BS theories can be scientifically tested. These pseudo-guru BS merchants who populate the T&TF can come out with whatever claptrap they want and as long as sounds convincing, who knows?

...is totally unhelpful. There are people who 'know' how to translate the sliders and who spend a great deal of free time trying to share that knowledge. For FM09, this knowledge has even been canonised by the ME programmer, Paul Collyer. Reducing their contributions to BS is unhelpful and needlessly malicious.