Where has the fun gone?

[anagain]

Yeah, I agree with that. But if the players played ********, I'm sure as hell going to tell them! But I guess this is where me and the game may just not mix, but am I playing the system to get results or am I trying to make a squad into a team? Sounds as if I'm just playing the system...

If your team is on a losing streak it is often better to up confidence with good comments, rather than bad ones.

If your team has a bad first half tell them that you have confidence that they can perform and they might just.

In a slump it's not that they've become bad players, it's just that morale is low and they just need some belief instilled in them.

Tell them that they can win matches and tell them you are pleased when they put a good effort in.

If one or two players do play really well, even though you might still lose, then make sure you tell them.

[Nomis07]

If your team is on a losing streak it is often better to up confidence with good comments, rather than bad ones.

If your team has a bad first half tell them that you have confidence that they can perform and they might just.

In a slump it's not that they've become bad players, it's just that morale is low and they just need some belief instilled in them.

Tell them that they can win matches and tell them you are pleased when they put a good effort in.

If one or two players do play really well, even though you might still lose, then make sure you tell them.

I think those are all aspects of the game that could benefit from a confidence level as well as a moral level.

[theonlystd]

i know i wish i hadnt uninstalled fm 08 at times =(

[David86]

im starting to feel the same way that many do here. when every new FM comes out it's like i have to re learn things over again and im getting to the point where i can't be bothered. think i'm just going to stick with the old ones from now on

[Some Guy!]

You see, that's where the problem lies with some of this logic. You say, consistent - I say, never deviated from 4-4-2 once. Changing every time you lose - so using very little of the options open to you makes any difference? Doesn't strike me as very sensible. Although, I will give you that changing it each and every time doesn't make sense. I agree with you that I've probably managed my side poorly but what I want to know is what did I do that was SO bad? If I go on an 8 match unbeaten run, then why does that suddenly turn into a six match losing streak just because I changes the coaches to do their jobs more effectively? That alone would not contribute to zero points from 18 (and sure as hell wouldn't happen in real life.) Sure, I may lose a bit of momentum whilst changes are adjusted to, but not from one extreme to another. (And I'm not sure which evidence I've cited which was so bad.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that by your logic, changing nothing/little gives you the best results - if so, then why is the 'game' so unforgiving? Just to plunder on game after game in almost sheer hope that something will change doesn't make me feel as if *I* am a good manager. This version just feels too random, too hard unless you want to play as Chelsea or Man U...

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying but if changing so little and be bullish about what you want is the answer, then almost half of the options open to you are redundant and serve no purpose. It's almost like saying, here...look at everything you've got on offer...bewildering isn't it? Good, because that's what we want you to believe, in reality it's simple. Except it isn't, or is it? So you doubt yourself forever, until you get it right - and then what do you put it down to? Your players, not a slider notch here and there, a chat here, this coach you signed, etc. What you THINK actually held your team together is just opinion, never an actual reason you can pin-point - that's what grinds me. It's all just hit and miss - a chuck of the dice, especially in this version.

Again, it's like anything. Whilst as I said consistancy is vital, you can't neglect things like press confrences, team talks, fatigue and such, as well as the original effectiveness of your tactic with the players you have at your disposal.

Now, when you say hit and miss, chuck of the dice and inability to pin-point where your success came from... You're absolutely right, just like in real football. Some amazing managers have failed miserably before for little reason. People try and say it was for this or that, but in the end managers like Jol, McClaren, Jewell, Ramos and co. have failed, when they really shouldn't have. That's part of managing, and it happens.

I've had many saves that have just gone down the toilet and I've had only two successful ones. In the end, you just have to keep at it, things will go right eventually.

Also, as I've mentioned above, even though consistancy is key, if something just isn't working, shacking it all up might be a good option.

As for your comment about an 8 game unbeaten run followed by 8 winless run... Look at Derby this season! Need I say more.

[Rupal]

Now, when you say hit and miss, chuck of the dice and inability to pin-point where your success came from... You're absolutely right, just like in real football. Some amazing managers have failed miserably before for little reason. People try and say it was for this or that, but in the end managers like Jol, McClaren, Jewell, Ramos and co. have failed, when they really shouldn't have. That's part of managing, and it happens.

I think this post shows the divide which exists between the two sides in this argument.

PaulC is proud that SI has made a product which he believes reflects reality. As a SIMULATION it may, indeed, mirror real football very well. Some Guy obviously is one of many who appreciate this realism a lot.

But the OP was asking 'Where has the fun gone?' That question is about how good FM is as a GAME. This isn't the same thing. I feel more and more that SI, in their anxiety to produce 'realism' have lost that 'game' feeling. However realistic it may be, FM does not provide a good game playing experience for the OP and others of us because this 'randomness', this lack of causal connection, takes the fun out of it. I play games to relax and enjoy myself, not to become involved in a 'reality sim' where I seem to be at the mercy of events for too much of the time.

[Bababui]

Now, when you say hit and miss, chuck of the dice and inability to pin-point where your success came from... You're absolutely right, just like in real football. Some amazing managers have failed miserably before for little reason. People try and say it was for this or that, but in the end managers like Jol, McClaren, Jewell, Ramos and co. have failed, when they really shouldn't have. That's part of managing, and it happens.

I've had many saves that have just gone down the toilet and I've had only two successful ones. In the end, you just have to keep at it, things will go right eventually.

Its fairly obvious why those managers failed. They put together poor teams..especially Tottenham and their crazy transfer policy of not buying players to fill positions of need. Its not nuclear physics here. Its not something that requires an advanced degree. Most knowledgeable people understand why any specific team has failed.

[jod123]

I think this post shows the divide which exists between the two sides in this argument.

PaulC is proud that SI has made a product which he believes reflects reality. As a SIMULATION it may, indeed, mirror real football very well. Some Guy obviously is one of many who appreciate this realism a lot.

But the OP was asking 'Where has the fun gone?' That question is about how good FM is as a GAME. This isn't the same thing. I feel more and more that SI, in their anxiety to produce 'realism' have lost that 'game' feeling. However realistic it may be, FM does not provide a good game playing experience for the OP and others of us because this 'randomness', this lack of causal connection, takes the fun out of it. I play games to relax and enjoy myself, not to become involved in a 'reality sim' where I seem to be at the mercy of events for too much of the time.

I understand what you mean as what you posted I was thinking myself after reading someguy's post. However I think it can still be played to relax and enjoy as that is what I generally do. Is it the micromanagement that you think you have to do that is making you feel that way as I don't do that and enjoy the game with relative success?

Although your general point is correct in my opinion it is great that it is a brilliant simulation but it is supposed to be game at the end of the day and there must be a limit to how realistic the game is but at the moment in my view the balance between them is good enough.

[Rupal]

I find that the lack of connection between what I may change tactically and the results which follow from that is the main issue.

The ME does not adequately reflect what I do in observable behaviour from my players. If I turn a game around by slider movement, the actual effect of what I do is unclear. In part, this is because defenders do not behave in a sensible fashion, there are far too many one on ones and far too few of those are converted, etc, etc. Essentially, while the game may produce credible results to matches, it doesn't produce them in a credible way. As the ME is so difficult to 'read', there is a lack of obvious connectivity between what I do and what happens.

Combine this with the 'randomness' element and the various other factors (weather, team talks, media, suspicion that bad runs are programmed in, etc,) and I simply don't feel that the individual matches are controllable enough to make the gameplay as enjoyable as it ought to be.

[jod123]

I find that the lack of connection between what I may change tactically and the results which follow from that is the main issue.

The ME does not adequately reflect what I do in observable behaviour from my players. If I turn a game around by slider movement, the actual effect of what I do is unclear. In part, this is because defenders do not behave in a sensible fashion, there are far too many one on ones and far too few of those are converted, etc, etc. Essentially, while the game may produce credible results to matches, it doesn't produce them in a credible way. As the ME is so difficult to 'read', there is a lack of obvious connectivity between what I do and what happens.

Combine this with the 'randomness' element and the various other factors (weather, team talks, media, suspicion that bad runs are programmed in, etc,) and I simply don't feel that the individual matches are controllable enough to make the gameplay as enjoyable as it ought to be.

There has to be randomness in the game though if you are managing a lower league club then no matter how good you are at the game you should not be able to win against a big club. Obviously it can work the other way as well though.

I never try to read the match engine though so can't really comment on that. I just set up my tactics once and then don't change them. It is obviously not the best way to play but it makes me have fun from the game.

But anyway surely if you cannot read the match engine then that is not realistic or fun which is part of the discussion isn't it? Maybe it just has to be improved or just don't read it like me.

Anyway I think all the factors you named have to be taken into account. I want the game to generate matches and their results realistically but it does not mean I cannot play casually just for fun and to relax.

[Rupal]

I think the ME needs a good deal of work and the sliders are unintuitive and too complex. Certain things which I may want to do are made oddly difficult. For example, suppose I have a good right winger, whom I want to play wide to help stretch the defence, while my left midfielder is a more defensive type, whom I want to tuck in narrow. I can't do that simply.

Each individual match is like a mini game for me. I want to be able to manage that properly and the current setup doesn't really allow it.

[jod123]

I think the ME needs a good deal of work and the sliders are unintuitive and too complex. Certain things which I may want to do are made oddly difficult. For example, suppose I have a good right winger, whom I want to play wide to help stretch the defence, while my left midfielder is a more defensive type, whom I want to tuck in narrow. I can't do that simply.

Each individual match is like a mini game for me. I want to be able to manage that properly and the current setup doesn't really allow it.

But if that is how you play aren't you more than just a casual player who plays for fun and relaxation? It sounds like you go indepth into your tactics and other areas maybe as well and want the team to play the style of football you like while for example I would not care. My left midfielder has similar instructions to my right midfielder regardless of attributes. FM does need to cater for all types of players though so what type do you think you are? A casual player?

[Some Guy!]

I think this post shows the divide which exists between the two sides in this argument.

PaulC is proud that SI has made a product which he believes reflects reality. As a SIMULATION it may, indeed, mirror real football very well. Some Guy obviously is one of many who appreciate this realism a lot.

But the OP was asking 'Where has the fun gone?' That question is about how good FM is as a GAME. This isn't the same thing. I feel more and more that SI, in their anxiety to produce 'realism' have lost that 'game' feeling. However realistic it may be, FM does not provide a good game playing experience for the OP and others of us because this 'randomness', this lack of causal connection, takes the fun out of it. I play games to relax and enjoy myself, not to become involved in a 'reality sim' where I seem to be at the mercy of events for too much of the time.

Well, that is true, but the game is hardly that realistic when it comes to success that can be achieved in a reletively short period of time.

I really can't see Derby being the outright best side on the planet by 2015. But hey, as has been said it's a game.

If the "game" experience is what you really want though, there are others out there you could try.

Its fairly obvious why those managers failed. They put together poor teams..especially Tottenham and their crazy transfer policy of not buying players to fill positions of need. Its not nuclear physics here. Its not something that requires an advanced degree. Most knowledgeable people understand why any specific team has failed.

But that's exactly it, we look at the situation and decide on why we think it all came crashing down. In the end we can come up with what we feel is the reason, but you can never be sure. You might say that Berbatov, Defoe and Keane's sales were poor decisions, but others may say it was the decision to keep Berbatov too long that was the downfall of Tottenham early in the season. In truth it's probably a bit of both with a big helping of bad luck (which is part of anything in life, and in most games).

You could look at Jewell the same way, not to mention McClaren. Moments of bad luck can change everything.

[Rupal]

I like to play chess. That is a game where everything is completely logical. There is no 'luck' in chess.

It is an amazingly demanding game. It is also (for me) very relaxing and great fun.

As far as FM is concerned, I want that same feeling and I don't always get it because of the things I've mentioned before. I don't see depth and fun being mutually exclusive at all but I do find that the lack of connectivity and clarity with the current setup can spoil things.

I don't know what type of player that makes me, really. I want something which can be demanding, sure, but also something where I feel that, for better or worse, what I input is the most important element.

Hope that's clear.

[jod123]

I like to play chess. That is a game where everything is completely logical. There is no 'luck' in chess.

It is an amazingly demanding game. It is also (for me) very relaxing and great fun.

As far as FM is concerned, I want that same feeling and I don't always get it because of the things I've mentioned before. I don't see depth and fun being mutually exclusive at all but I do find that the lack of connectivity and clarity with the current setup can spoil things.

I don't know what type of player that makes me, really. I want something which can be demanding, sure, but also something where I feel that, for better or worse, what I input is the most important element.

Hope that's clear.

Oh yeah I did not mean depth and fun are mutually exclusive but I meant that most people in this thread seem to be players who don't want to micromanage and just want to get on with the game and progress fast and think you cannot do this in FM and achieve success while you can.

Anyway I rushed this post as I got to go to college , so I did not respond to all of your post.

[Yasko75]

The last FM version that i enjoyed was FM2007 where i could make my own tactics and get reasanable successfull. I.e a good team performs as expected.

Nowadays, regardless of what i do and how good it is, my team gets raped by the AI. So i have for the first time downloaded others tactic and trying to enjoy the game(of course untill SI releases another patch and destroys these tactics and my enjoyment)

For those struggling, dont bother readint TTF or whatever its called, just download couple of tactics from the tactics forum, and pray that SI doesnt release another patch... :-P

Oh, BTW, let the assistant manager take care of teamtalks, press conferance and other boring and repetetive stuff...

[americas4ever]

Looks like there are differents views around FM 09 and it's logical. As someone said, FM (whatever version) will never please everyone.

This is my view about FM 09:

I started a game (9.1.0 patch) with Notts County and I used the same tactic (successful one) I had in FM 08. I bought a few good players and the league begun. My team was performing below my expectations and I started to feel very angry. I was wondering why the same tactic which I had success on FM 08 was not working now and why I had so many good players (maybe the best of the league) not performing. My Assistant Manager advised me about the gap between lines (defense, midfield and attack) so instead of throwing the game to the rubbish and get angered I decided to have a look at the forums.

I found a tactic (Higgins' one) and I gave it a go. I was looking more for a concept than a winning every game tactic. I started with Oxford Utd (9.2.0 patch) at Blue Square Premier and things changed a lot. He (Higgins) uses a formation that I've always played: 4-1-3-2 (diamond) just with one difference, I prefer to play 2 MC rather than 2 wingers. I bought good players and I tweaked his tactic (Higgins) based on my players skills. Result --> 129 league points, only lost one game (away against Kidderminster). However my AMc was getting poor ratings despite his good game' stats (passes, shots, ... etc) and I had a look at forums again to check the community opinion. Obviously, there were (are) threads talking about the AMc rating so I considered it as a bug.

But but but the new season started and I bought Alex Maranhao (AMc) with 20 flair, 13 creativity, 16 long shots, 16 technique, etc and guess what... So far 6 games played and he's listed on the top based on average rating (my best player at the moment)... He has the SAME settings as it has my previous AMc (Jabulani Mendu) in the last season. However it's a delight watching him playing. I haven't seen in all FM / CM series a player playing as AMc making the difference as he is now. I don't know if this a coincidence or if SI has implemented very well in tactics and games what a player of his calibre can do on a football pitch. I mean, looks like this is not anymore a game where you buy a good player, place him on the start eleven and expect or wait to perform like a crack. You have to give him the right settings to perform well and THAT IS A CHALLENGE. If that assumption is true I have to say that SI did a great and big step forward.

Atributes plays a big role and they are key depending on which formation, style of play you have. It's no more a plug and play game, and I'm pleased it's not.

I know it can be a pain in the ar*e to read everything at Tactics & Training Tips but you need to be very selective in which matters you need information or tips. It wont take a week of reading (nor a day). And trust me, it worths every second because you'll get your payback. If you do so, your team and players will play the way you like and this is fantastic. I recall a question that AgentBalti did in this thread, he said why his Assistant Manager told him that a player was playing the game a higher tempo than the others .... Well, play him say 12 consecutives games and tell me if you get that message again. In FM 09 players need to adapt to your system and your style of play (this is very real) and once they do it you can get the gratifying "Oxford United turned on the style" news after a game.

Conclussions: The game is playable --> YES. The game is enjoyable --> YES also. And I say this assuming there are bugs inexcusables like B teams in Spain signing players when the real thing is the main team (say Real Madrid) buy a player (Opare for example) and they move that player to the B team (Castilla in this example). That thing has not been coded correctly and I can understand gamers finding the game not playable when they manage a spanish team. And assuming also the Bojan Bug (young players with high potential ability, some of them classed as wonderkids, being released from their clubs). However, this FM 09 keeps me thinking on players to buy or tactics when I wake up like no others FM did.

P.S.: We'll see gamers saying in FM 2012 that they go back to play FM 09 again.

[Nomis07]

so instead of throwing the game to the rubbish and get angered I decided to have a look at the forums.

This is an oft used argument, and in a way it's true, but the concept that a gamer should register on a forum in order to play a game is ludicrous.

[americas4ever]

Fair enough Nomis07 and if I get your post correctly I think the games nowadays are heading to a "community view" rather than playing them in the loneliness like most of us did in the past (80-90's). Years ago we shared our game' opinions (faults and pros) with our local friends. Now you check someone' views and maybe he is from Ukraine.

Indeed Nomis07, in my case on the early CM games I had never used this forum. Today it is indispensable before starting a game

[Hamenaglar]

For me last two versions were more of a pain in the **** rather than enjoyment. It takes about 5 or 6 clicks of mouse just to get through to the start of the match. Aaaaaaaaargh. Seriously what kind of design is it.

[Robsabbaggio]

Might be off topic, but what would make the game easier for me would be to either replace the sliders, or "skin" them in order for me to give the team/players specific instructions.

For example, for individual instructions e.g. a winger, I would like to have a simple range of instructions e.g. try to beat fullback and get to the byline, whip ball in early, stay wide, cut inside etc. Or for a fullback, say stay back, or overlap, or put balls in etc. Things I can actually imagine a manager saying!

Basically, tell a player what I want him to do, without faffing around with mentalities, CF, etc.

For the team play, I would like some simple instuctions again e.g. keep it on the deck, get it wide. Hold on to the ball, shut up shop etc.

Ok, we do have these options to an extent, but they are in addition to the sliders.

Either remove the sliders, or maybe have some kind of tactics skin that takes my simple instructions, and moves the sliders in order for it to work properly. I could then still access the sliders if I wanted, but didnt have to.

[Roady99]

See to me my original point may have come across about the tactics and so for even thou i still do beleive they are wayyy to in detail for me as only after reading about atleast 10 hours (not exaggerated) worth of posts and tips on this forum did i get a semi consistent formation, But now you all tell me i haqve to concentrate on team talks, moral, what transfers i buy, if my team is gelling, praising players etc etc... to be honest i know we all want it to be as realistic as possible but i dont want to have to spend hours reading more and more about all these possible scenarios so i can just start to get enjoyment out of it.

I personally want to put the game in the drive and beable to play it without reading over and over again just so i can even start a game, I mean how is that fun? Everything i have implemented into this game has come from other peoples advice so therfor im getting no selfsatisfaction if and thats a big if my team acheives something.

Please dont take this as offensive or that im slating the game as i love the FM series always have, I just want it maybe even toned back abit so i can once again enjoy FM as i always have done.

[Rupal]

Might be off topic, but what would make the game easier for me would be to either replace the sliders, or "skin" them in order for me to give the team/players specific instructions.

For example, for individual instructions e.g. a winger, I would like to have a simple range of instructions e.g. try to beat fullback and get to the byline, whip ball in early, stay wide, cut inside etc. Or for a fullback, say stay back, or overlap, or put balls in etc. Things I can actually imagine a manager saying!

Basically, tell a player what I want him to do, without faffing around with mentalities, CF, etc.

For the team play, I would like some simple instuctions again e.g. keep it on the deck, get it wide. Hold on to the ball, shut up shop etc.

Ok, we do have these options to an extent, but they are in addition to the sliders.

Either remove the sliders, or maybe have some kind of tactics skin that takes my simple instructions, and moves the sliders in order for it to work properly. I could then still access the sliders if I wanted, but didnt have to.

I think a lot of people would appreciate something more straightforward.

It's not a wish for dumbing down. Rather, it's difficult at present to instruct your players to do what you want. You know well enough what you actually want them to do but it seems to take a fair bit of mucking about with the sliders to get an approximation to that and by that stage you are halfway into the match.....

Certainly it would be very, very helpful to have touchline shouts which could get your players to shut up shop, take the ball into the corner, etc, towards the end of a match without having to alter individual sliders for time wasting, tempo, passing, hold up, etc etc. The ME takes so long to respond to these changes sometimes that the game has finished before they take effect....

[andysafc]

Dont get me wrong im not going to complain about gliches this and that i think the game as a whole has amazing detail and it is a great footballing game, I just think Si have concentrated on the detail so much they may have forgot about us simple people that just want a fun game to play, To be honest i couldnt care less about team talks, press confrences, training or even the 3d match engine. I just want the old fm back the fun fm :o)

This has been coming for a few versions now and each version brings up threads like this. I believe i did a one myself a year or two ago. Anyway the reply has always been the same... SI will continue to follow the realism route. Even though that means the fun is replaced with frustration. Hence the reason why i didn't buy FM09, not because it is not a good game as i'm sure it is but it is no longer for me.

As Roady99 says... i don't want to have to study threads and threads of text in order to understand the game.

CM09 will be interesting this year, never bought a CM game since the split with SI but i feel as though SI are forcing me to change.

[PaulC]

Couple of things:

Firstly, no the game wont be dumbed down. The slider system will remain for those who want to use it.

Secondly, FM's ( and CM when we did it ) core value is that it creates a realistic world of football that the user is placed into. That principle will never change while I have a say

[GrahamL]

I think I have to agree with the OP here, I've really struggled with FM09 so far, and I'll tell you for why.

In the old versions I've been able to pick up the game, choose one of the standard formations, but a few players I like the look of, and do OK. Not great. Maybe a shade short of how the team would do IRL. Once I'd done that for a season or two, and got comfortable with how the game works, I'd start tweaking the formation, playing around with praising players, training, media interaction and so on.

Now it seems you need to put in an inordinant amount of effort just to get to the stage where you're doing well enough to last the couple of seasons. I've found it so frustrating thus far that I must be onto my 10th new game, I just can't seem to get a team behaving well enough that I have the urge to take it forward.

FWIW I may now be getting closer, I've picked up tactics and training schedules from this forum, along with a handful of recommended players, and I've got a team doing... well... OK. So maybe this save will be the one where I finally get my head round all this. Maybe.

I must admit, I do wonder how the game is going to survive, I first played CM93 back when I was 13 and the limited options suited me perfectly back then. I wonder how a 13 year old coming to this game would react, especially if they don't want to spend hours working through messageboards just to get a team of good players playing OK.

It's going to take a lot of playing for me to crack this one, and a lot of time, I have work and a missus to balance with FM now. And maybe it will be that bit more rewarding when I do (and I think thats the point the "pro-realism" group are making), but right now I haven't had a lot of fun from it. And if that doesn't change soon... well, frankly, I have better things to do with my time.

I know not everyone feels the same (to be fair, there was a period when I would have had plenty spare time to master it - so I don't mean to sound like I'm having a go) but it does sound like I'm moving out of the target audience for FM. Might be time to try a different series of games now...

[Some Guy!]

This has been coming for a few versions now and each version brings up threads like this. I believe i did a one myself a year or two ago. Anyway the reply has always been the same... SI will continue to follow the realism route. Even though that means the fun is replaced with frustration. Hence the reason why i didn't buy FM09, not because it is not a good game as i'm sure it is but it is no longer for me.

As Roady99 says... i don't want to have to study threads and threads of text in order to understand the game.

CM09 will be interesting this year, never bought a CM game since the split with SI but i feel as though SI are forcing me to change.

May I make a point perfectly clear... I never looked at a tactics forum or anything of the sort, in fact I'd only ever talked to a handful of people about FM before I came on this site and yet I've had more than enough success through just simple logical play. People here tend to miss the forest from the trees a lot. Just because there's a lot of little sliders, press conferences and all this doesn't mean it's over complicated. Tactics are really very simple and the game is more than willing to hand out bucket loads of help. You don't even have to take team-talks, media confrences or any of this. You can just pick a team in a flat 4-4-2 and play.

Just relax, the worst thing that could happen to this series is for it to be changed to be "more of a game". By way; "more of a game" is one of the stupidest statements I've ever actually heard.

Success comes to those who are patient and if it was made any easier there would be no fun in the game. Really, my Derby side in 4 years won a treble.

If you want a "less realistic" game, go buy FIFA manager or something.

[Some Guy!]

Couple of things:

Firstly, no the game wont be dumbed down. The slider system will remain for those who want to use it.

Secondly, FM's ( and CM when we did it ) core value is that it creates a realistic world of football that the user is placed into. That principle will never change while I have a say

That's great news to hear, I was worried that SI might actually cave and produce something terrible next year.

[Rupal]

Just relax, the worst thing that could happen to this series is for it to be changed to be "more of a game". By way; "more of a game" is one of the stupidest statements I've ever actually heard.

Success comes to those who are patient and if it was made any easier there would be no fun in the game. Really, my Derby side in 4 years won a treble.

If you want a "less realistic" game, go buy FIFA manager or something.

So it's stupid to want a game to actually be a game rather than some sort of reality simulation?

THAT's one of the stupidest statements that I can remember reading!

[GrahamL]

So it's stupid to want a game to actually be a game rather than some sort of reality simulation?

THAT's one of the stupidest statements that I can remember reading!

Here's an story that I think shows the same sort of thing.

Back when I was a kid, someone released a game which simulated flying a jumbo jet. The challenge was to take off, fly to your destination and land in the smoothest way possible. Pretty much every key on the keyboard did something, and the screen was a mass of dials, levers and meters with a tiny window showing the blue sky 40,000ft above the atlantic. It was, I believe, a very accurate representation of what it's like to fly a commerical airliner. It took about 2 hours of reading, and a handwritten checklist, just to get the plane off the ground.

It was the dullest thing I have ever seen, yet one of my pals loved it. He used to come into school and tell us about how he managed to fly a 747 through an electrical storm over the Bahamas.

The rest of us played an F15 simulator. There was a bit of a challenge in getting everything working, but it took about 10 minutes to get the plane up and moving, then a lot of practice to get good.

That's the difference between a game and a simulation. I don't want to be good from the start, but I want to do OK. I don't need a computer game to tell me I'd be a rubbish football manager irl - I know that. I want a computer game to let me act like I'm a decent football manager.

[Mase]

Thats exactly what a lot of FM users feel now Graham.

Nice to see the reply from PaulC though and its a much welcome one. I will be interested to see how the next FM performs when the changes are implemented. But I dont think I'll be playing this one anymore, as I havent been already and cant say I'm missing it, which is a bit sad to me!

There was a long time when the only games i played were FM/CM and counterstrike. Now I'm playing everything but them. Counterstrike only coz I dont have the internet at home though!

Even the xbox games are more appealing than FM/CM now. More accessible, more fun.

[Cha Cha Cha]

I agree - where is the fun?

Last week I decided to start a new game - I spent 20 hours on one season finishing 2nd with a "middle" club in Denmark. After that I spent 2-3 hours in pre-season making a new tactic and buying players. In my first match in the second season I lost 1-5 to a bottom half team. I was shocked because my tactic was doing well in my friendlies.

the same happened to me in brazil, first with coritiba and then with ec vitoria. Very good results during the pre-season (in the national cup, and 1st place in the national championship), but when the main championship had started a disaster occurred. Horrible series of 0-1 1-2,... and I made my way through the relegation zone...

In europe no more than a uefa placing.

Maybe it's only a matter of patience, in 5-6 season your chances may improve, but oh boy what an anger...

This is the first cm/fm where I have basically won nothing...

[Yasko75]

Here's an story that I think shows the same sort of thing.

Back when I was a kid, someone released a game which simulated flying a jumbo jet. The challenge was to take off, fly to your destination and land in the smoothest way possible. Pretty much every key on the keyboard did something, and the screen was a mass of dials, levers and meters with a tiny window showing the blue sky 40,000ft above the atlantic. It was, I believe, a very accurate representation of what it's like to fly a commerical airliner. It took about 2 hours of reading, and a handwritten checklist, just to get the plane off the ground.

It was the dullest thing I have ever seen, yet one of my pals loved it. He used to come into school and tell us about how he managed to fly a 747 through an electrical storm over the Bahamas.

The rest of us played an F15 simulator. There was a bit of a challenge in getting everything working, but it took about 10 minutes to get the plane up and moving, then a lot of practice to get good.

That's the difference between a game and a simulation. I don't want to be good from the start, but I want to do OK. I don't need a computer game to tell me I'd be a rubbish football manager irl - I know that. I want a computer game to let me act like I'm a decent football manager.

An excellent post.

Also, having a lot of sliders doesnt make the game more realistic, since in the real world you just tell your player what you expect, you dont tell your player to have the mentality of "six clicks of 20". You just tell them to stay defensive...

[Jack Rudd]

This is an oft used argument, and in a way it's true, but the concept that a gamer should register on a forum in order to play a game is ludicrous.

There are plenty of games for which that, or something equivalent, has never been seen as a ludicrous concept - look at the number of chess, bridge and poker books there are out there.

[Yasko75]

the same happened to me in brazil, first with coritiba and then with ec vitoria. Very good results during the pre-season (in the national cup, and 1st place in the national championship), but when the main championship had started a disaster occurred. Horrible series of 0-1 1-2,... and I made my way through the relegation zone...

In europe no more than a uefa placing.

Maybe it's only a matter of patience, in 5-6 season your chances may improve, but oh boy what an anger...

This is the first cm/fm where I have basically won nothing...

Thats exactly what a lot of FM users feel now Graham.

Nice to see the reply from PaulC though and its a much welcome one. I will be interested to see how the next FM performs when the changes are implemented. But I dont think I'll be playing this one anymore, as I havent been already and cant say I'm missing it, which is a bit sad to me!

There was a long time when the only games i played were FM/CM and counterstrike. Now I'm playing everything but them. Counterstrike only coz I dont have the internet at home though!

Even the xbox games are more appealing than FM/CM now. More accessible, more fun.

Try the tactics forum. You dont need to download those 5 set of tactics to be successfull. Try Knap tactics for top teams:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=85536

Or this one for lower league teams:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=83245

Its only a tactic for both home and away and you dont need to make too many tweaks....Without these two tactics i would have abonded the game for long time ago...

[Cha Cha Cha]

Couple of things:

Firstly, no the game wont be dumbed down. The slider system will remain for those who want to use it.

Secondly, FM's ( and CM when we did it ) core value is that it creates a realistic world of football that the user is placed into. That principle will never change while I have a say

Retake control of the game, we want the good old championship manager!

[GrahamL]

There are plenty of games for which that, or something equivalent, has never been seen as a ludicrous concept - look at the number of chess, bridge and poker books there are out there.

Indeed. The difference there is that these games have a learning curve - you would normally play against people of a similar level to yourself and work your way up. And you'd be reading books, practising etc to be able to play better opponents.

FM09 only has one difficulty setting, there's no way to ease yourself into it. It'd be like only being able to play chess against people who have been playing 10 years, eventually you would learn how to play to their level, but you'd have been losing consistently for a long time before you go there.

I've nothing against making the game challenging, I just feel that - given the number of variables in the game - it'd have been much more enjoyable if the deep end we're thrown in at wasn't quite so deep.

[Zico]

Not only is the game no fun any more, it takes too darn long. In the older versions of CM/FM you could actually play a good chunk of a season in one night (which is what I want because I don't have endless time on my hands). With FM 2009 it can take 24 hours of playing time to get through a season and by the time you've finally finished, yiu're (a) exhausted and (b) bored.

[Kenwyne]

The game has gone down the toilet for me. Not because I find it too 'in-depth' or anything like this, more because I don't feel I'm getting an adequate product for the money I spend on it. Others do and it's astounding popularity would support that, and I have no problem with this at all.

I don't know what the testing process is so I can't judge it, however I do have to question what seems to get through this process patch after patch. Right now we have this bizarre 'crabbing' movement players do, numerous defensive errors resulting in numerous one-on-ones, in turn resulting in numerous misses. We have keepers coming out and standing next to the ball, players running up to the ball and then running away from it, players standing still until they are tackled, a ridiculous amount of backpasses going out for corners, etc etc etc. Last patch we had keepers being able to pick out strikers with goal-kicks. Out of the box it was excessive injuries.

These aren't random things which happen once every five games either, they are blatantly obvious almost immediately. Were any of these issues logged and attended to before the game and subsequent patches came out? The crabbing movement in particular is one that has me stunned, as I noticed it immediately after installing 9.2.0 - yet it isn't picked up by testing?

As a result, I am confused about my tactics. Is it me that is causing defenders to move this way and my strikers to miss countless one-on-ones? Is the 3D accurately representing the match engine? I'll have eight or nine one-on-ones and not score a single one of them, then check the match stats and see I've only had two CCCs - what am I supposed to take out of that tactically?

I don't understand the game, I see numerous issues that appear to have gotten through testing and really, it saps away most of the fun I used to get out of this series.

[Kenwyne]

The game has gone down the toilet for me. Not because I find it too 'in-depth' or anything like this, more because I don't feel I'm getting an adequate product for the money I spend on it. Others do and it's astounding popularity would support that, and I have no problem with this at all.

I don't know what the testing process is so I can't judge it, however I do have to question what seems to get through this process patch after patch. Right now we have this bizarre 'crabbing' movement players do, numerous defensive errors resulting in numerous one-on-ones, in turn resulting in numerous misses. We have keepers coming out and standing next to the ball, players running up to the ball and then running away from it, players standing still until they are tackled, a ridiculous amount of backpasses going out for corners, etc etc etc. Last patch we had keepers being able to pick out strikers with goal-kicks. Out of the box it was excessive injuries.

These aren't random things which happen once every five games either, they are blatantly obvious almost immediately. Were any of these issues logged and attended to before the game and subsequent patches came out? The crabbing movement in particular is one that has me stunned, as I noticed it immediately after installing 9.2.0 - yet it isn't picked up by testing?

As a result, I am confused about my tactics. Is it me that is causing defenders to move this way and my strikers to miss countless one-on-ones? Is the 3D accurately representing the match engine? I'll have eight or nine one-on-ones and not score a single one of them, then check the match stats and see I've only had two CCCs - what am I supposed to take out of that tactically?

I don't understand the game, I see numerous issues that appear to have gotten through testing and really, it saps away most of the fun I used to get out of this series.

[jod123]

The last FM version that i enjoyed was FM2007 where i could make my own tactics and get reasanable successfull. I.e a good team performs as expected.

Nowadays, regardless of what i do and how good it is, my team gets raped by the AI. So i have for the first time downloaded others tactic and trying to enjoy the game(of course untill SI releases another patch and destroys these tactics and my enjoyment)

For those struggling, dont bother readint TTF or whatever its called, just download couple of tactics from the tactics forum, and pray that SI doesnt release another patch... :-P

Oh, BTW, let the assistant manager take care of teamtalks, press conferance and other boring and repetetive stuff...

You see your last sentence. That is probably where you are going wrong. Constantly changing your tactics just makes things worse. What other boring stuff are you referring to?

For me last two versions were more of a pain in the **** rather than enjoyment. It takes about 5 or 6 clicks of mouse just to get through to the start of the match. Aaaaaaaaargh. Seriously what kind of design is it.

There is an option in preferences to disable all the match preview screens for every match.

See to me my original point may have come across about the tactics and so for even thou i still do beleive they are wayyy to in detail for me as only after reading about atleast 10 hours (not exaggerated) worth of posts and tips on this forum did i get a semi consistent formation, But now you all tell me i haqve to concentrate on team talks, moral, what transfers i buy, if my team is gelling, praising players etc etc... to be honest i know we all want it to be as realistic as possible but i dont want to have to spend hours reading more and more about all these possible scenarios so i can just start to get enjoyment out of it.

I personally want to put the game in the drive and beable to play it without reading over and over again just so i can even start a game, I mean how is that fun? Everything i have implemented into this game has come from other peoples advice so therfor im getting no selfsatisfaction if and thats a big if my team acheives something.

Please dont take this as offensive or that im slating the game as i love the FM series always have, I just want it maybe even toned back abit so i can once again enjoy FM as i always have done.

You can. Look at my casual player thread and you will see there are many casual players who achieve at least expected success.

This has been coming for a few versions now and each version brings up threads like this. I believe i did a one myself a year or two ago. Anyway the reply has always been the same... SI will continue to follow the realism route. Even though that means the fun is replaced with frustration. Hence the reason why i didn't buy FM09, not because it is not a good game as i'm sure it is but it is no longer for me.

As Roady99 says... i don't want to have to study threads and threads of text in order to understand the game.

CM09 will be interesting this year, never bought a CM game since the split with SI but i feel as though SI are forcing me to change.

The default tactics are good enough, default training schedules are good enough, the assistant picks a good enough team. The assistant does do press conferences badly which is disappointing but I cannot see how anyone can become frustrated that the game is not fun enough for the casual player.

[Rupal]

jod123, no matter how hard you try, you won't succeed in convincing people who aren't finding enough fun in the game that it's really all OK!

People are finding problems with the ME - look at Kenwyne's post. People find that the number of variables being factored in means that they feel that their tactical input is being swamped - see lots of posts in various threads. People find the sliders cumbersome.

You may not be able to see how anyone can become frustrated that the game is not fun enough for the casual player. However, it's fairly clear that a number of people are finding that this is exactly what is happening to them.

[jod123]

jod123, no matter how hard you try, you won't succeed in convincing people who aren't finding enough fun in the game that it's really all OK!

People are finding problems with the ME - look at Kenwyne's post. People find that the number of variables being factored in means that they feel that their tactical input is being swamped - see lots of posts in various threads. People find the sliders cumbersome.

You may not be able to see how anyone can become frustrated that the game is not fun enough for the casual player. However, it's fairly clear that a number of people are finding that this is exactly what is happening to them.

What I am trying to say is a fact on not my opinion. (That is not meant to be an arrogant comment by the way. )

The theory "You cannot be successful if you are a casual player and don't micromanage due to lack of time, lack of patience or laziness" is far from true.

You have obviously misinterpreted me on some points, however. I agree there are problems with the ME and it can be improved and a better interface for the tactics would be very welcome but it is my above point that I was trying to make.

Hope I explained what I was trying to say better this time.

[Rupal]

That's clear enough.

I personally like to fiddle around with my own tactics and so on. I also like LLM and enjoy trying to succeed with a club which is pretty useless at the start. That's making life difficult, of course.

What I find spoils the fun is, as said before, the combination of an unintuitive, cumbersome tactical system, an ME which has peculiar player behaviour and unrealistic numbers of one on ones, etc and what I feel are too many variables factored into the matches. As a result, I feel that it is harder than it should be to get my players to do as I want and harder than it should be to see what my tactical alterations actually do.

The sort of thing which I mean is this. I just played an Italian C2 cup match which I was predicted to lose heavily. My team won 3-0 away. Great! BUT I had set them to deep defence and counter attack. So why oh why did they spend most of the match camped in the opponents' half? Why were the only times when they looked like conceding a goal those when the opposition counter attacked with a Route 1 punt down the middle over the top of defenders who were pushing up? Creative freedom was set to practically zero so why did the match play like this? The tactics were obviously right but what I could see going on bore no relationship to what it should have been.

You can't seem to read what to do from what you see. That's frustrating to me.

[Drunk Beware]

Go back to CM 03/04, it's great! No sliders, no press conferences, no teamtalks, no dodgy 3d. Just pure fun!

CM 01/02 for me.

[jod123]

That's clear enough.

I personally like to fiddle around with my own tactics and so on. I also like LLM and enjoy trying to succeed with a club which is pretty useless at the start. That's making life difficult, of course.

What I find spoils the fun is, as said before, the combination of an unintuitive, cumbersome tactical system, an ME which has peculiar player behaviour and unrealistic numbers of one on ones, etc and what I feel are too many variables factored into the matches. As a result, I feel that it is harder than it should be to get my players to do as I want and harder than it should be to see what my tactical alterations actually do.

The sort of thing which I mean is this. I just played an Italian C2 cup match which I was predicted to lose heavily. My team won 3-0 away. Great! BUT I had set them to deep defence and counter attack. So why oh why did they spend most of the match camped in the opponents' half? Why were the only times when they looked like conceding a goal those when the opposition counter attacked with a Route 1 punt down the middle over the top of defenders who were pushing up? Creative freedom was set to practically zero so why did the match play like this? The tactics were obviously right but what I could see going on bore no relationship to what it should have been.

You can't seem to read what to do from what you see. That's frustrating to me.

Yeah, I understand what you mean. I won't try and give you an explanation though as I honestly don't have a clue. Whether that is because it is the games fault or my lack of tactical nous, I don't know.

That is where our styles of play differ though. In the example you gave, I would not care and would just be delighted with the result.

As I said I do understand your frustration as you want to be able to understand the tactics and try and put in the effort to understand them but what you see in the match is completely different to what you expect and I would imagine you probably wonder why did I bother?

[Rupal]

I just played another match - identical tactics and lost 2-0. But again - the 2 goals were given away by my central defenders stupidly pushing up and leaving an enormous gap. They aren't told to close down far up the pitch, they are told not to make forward runs but this still happens. Creative freedom is virtually nil.

Maybe there is a simple explanation which I'm missing. If there is, please somebody tell me. Otherwise, my opinion that the game has serious faults is only reinforced by things like that.

[jod123]

What are you central defenders mentality?

[Rupal]

Set very defensive - well to the 'left'

[jod123]

A few more questions that are probaby obvious but are you playing the offiside trap?

What are their decisions attribute?

Have you opposition instuctions to close down strikers?

You sure you don't have conflicting instructions anywhere?