Football Manager or Find-the-Meta Manager

[CAE82]

3 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Good luck with that

Well, that's their problem, not ours!

14 minutes ago, XaW said:

I doubt we'll ever "get rid" of exploit tactics totally

Of course not! Even if the ME became 'perfect' then there'd still be some kind of weakness and exploit. That's just the nature of numerical simulations - there will always be boundary conditions or some edge case (i.e. bug) that is missed.

In terms of the future, a lot will depend on what SI is willing to pay in terms of salary to developers (or how much their current developers will develop). The obvious answer is 'AI' but it costs a lot now to employ a real AI expert as someone who really knows their stuff can name their price.

This also works both ways. It's already technologically possible that the game could become cloud-based and the AI becomes crowd-sourced and learns from the best tactics, training and transfers...

Of course, I don't think users would like it despite all the complaints about poor AI squad building and so on...

[Rodrigogc]

I would love to be FM'ed as many times as possible. 

[forameuss]

30 minutes ago, CAE82 said:

Well, that's their problem, not ours!

To be fair, it's everyone's problem if "experiments" are misrepresented or misunderstood, and half truths or complete fabrications get parroted as truths.

[themadsheep2001]

19 minutes ago, forameuss said:

To be fair, it's everyone's problem if "experiments" are misrepresented or misunderstood, and half truths or complete fabrications get parroted as truths.

Just to pick up on this, this is often why said threads end up getting closed. 

[batsy23]

I read all comments but still i'm on the same page. I still think this game unfortunately follows Fifa or eafc's way. It's a shame. Recently I saw a tactic where the inverted full-backs came forward. With defend duty... I think it is necessary to completely reset the team instructions and create them again in a descriptive way. And of course, every instruction will work with the right players and tactics. If you have right players, okay, play with sitting deep & wait. But no, you need to run, that makes me unhappy.

[whatsupdoc]

3 hours ago, XaW said:

Find me one that are highly rated in the tests and also concede less than a goal per game, if you don't mind. I'd like to try one of those, but I haven't found one.

These are the 3 that conceded the fewest in his tests:

 

ME24.2GreenxKnap XMASP1102FACC.fmf ME24.2WOFV9Knap451LiberoIFBP97ALLCUPS61%.fmf ME24.2WOFKnap424ATTRMP100ALLCUPS.fmf

[knap]

@XaW

Can you post your tactic for me to test

[whatsupdoc]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Just to pick up on this, this is often why said threads end up getting closed. 

To be clear, nobody is / should be saying that these tests reveal everything about the match engine. They are mostly performed using Man City so an attacking bias should be present given how opponents will line up against them.

That said, they do tell us something about the match engine. What they suggest to me is that defending needs a look, and that for the umpteenth year in a row overly attacking systems don't get punished enough.  

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

To be clear, nobody is / should be saying that these tests reveal everything about the match engine. They are mostly performed using Man City so an attacking bias should be present given how opponents will line up against them.

That said, they do tell us something about the match engine. What they suggest to me is that defending needs a look, and that for the umpteenth year in a row overly attacking systems don't get punished enough.  

Ok but that's not really linked to what I'm saying though. I'm directly talking about forameuss' point, and only that. 

[wazzaflow10]

3 hours ago, XaW said:

I doubt we'll ever "get rid" of exploit tactics totally, unless the AI managers get more reactive to what actually happens in the match, and if that happens, most of us will be outed as the poor managers we actually are rather quick! If anything I think they are a good thing for many users who only want to win and play as the best teams, using the best player, and tinkering as little as possible. The "Timmy", if you're familiar with MTG  And exploit tactic gives them all they want. And then the rest of us Johnny and Spike players can experiment, self limit, or tinker away as we please.

There was a mod a few years ago I think that made AI managers more reactive/smarter or so it claimed. The top managers seemed to have much more tactical comprehension.

I think the other problem with having the AI "learn" tactics is as the game goes on it will eventually meta the engine too. It'd be interesting if SI could figure out a way to slowly allow the engine to "evolve" and other styles to become the norm as time progresses. Right now pressing in in vogue but maybe 4-5 years into the game world the engine starts making pressing less effective and something else becomes a more dominant philosophy. Each player's game would be slightly different.

I don't have the slightest clue how that would work technically but it would be a way to counter the human solve the engine problem.

[knap]

Going back a few years wwfan preached the various tactic set ups, and these can still be used.

[knap]

This ME  is  probably the most adaptable, as you can use balanced mid block direct passing and slow tempo

[whatsupdoc]

38 minutes ago, knap said:

This ME  is  probably the most adaptable, as you can use balanced mid block direct passing and slow tempo

Can't agree there. Your tests show a heavy bias towards attacking mentality, high tempo, hard tackling, high line, high press etc etc. 

[knap]

@whatsupdoc

There are other tactics not using all those settings, which work for me.

Top PL sides use those settings so I don't see an issue

[whatsupdoc]

2 hours ago, knap said:

@whatsupdoc

There are other tactics not using all those settings, which work for me.

Top PL sides use those settings so I don't see an issue

No issue with those settings. 

Big issue with them universally out-performing more realistic setups, especially when paired with very unrealistic formations/setups/player roles.

Edited February 8 by whatsupdoc

[batsy23]

5 saat önce, knap said:

This ME  is  probably the most adaptable, as you can use balanced mid block direct passing and slow tempo

Don't take it personally but for football manager, your tactics are most dissapointing things for me. And i can't agree with you.

2 saat önce, whatsupdoc said:

No issue with those settings. 

Big issue with them universally out-performing more realistic setups, especially when paired with very unrealistic formations/setups/player roles.

This. 

We can't say you can't run everywhere with man city. We say you cannot run everywhere & go attacking like there is no tomorrow with every team. There is no balance in this game.

[whatsupdoc]

8 minutes ago, batsy23 said:

Don't take it personally but for football manager, your tactics are most dissapointing things for me. And i can't agree with you.

This. 

We can't say you can't run everywhere with man city. We say you cannot run everywhere & go attacking like there is no tomorrow with every team. There is no balance in this game.

I mean... you can't do it with Man City either in reality... which is why they don't do it. 

The only team I can think of that realistically tried to play in the style above is Loew's German team that ended with this: 

https://youtu.be/OKjV2SQfKrw?t=93

[Mitja]

FM offers too many tactical options and styles which then create big differences in long term performance of AI teams since MEs favour attacking/high intensity tactics. For example when was the last time a real life team tried to play defensive possession football with intent to hide the ball from opposition but without desire to score? Any tactic which employs defensive mentality will play out like that in FM. Why is there such an option in first place?

Simply put AI managers who are more attacking will outperform more cautious ones. AI Pep underperforming for example.

In start there's this huge imbalance which affects whole AI world (actually any more cautious Vs attacking approach). Why?

 

Edited February 8 by Mitja

[whatsupdoc]

11 hours ago, XaW said:

Find me one that are highly rated in the tests and also concede less than a goal per game, if you don't mind. I'd like to try one of those, but I haven't found one.

Curious to hear how you go with them.

My view on defending in the game now is that defenders don't seem to press the ball enough (to stop crosses, dribbling or shots).

I doubt these systems will impact the above...

Edited February 8 by whatsupdoc

[XaW]

8 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

These are the 3 that conceded the fewest in his tests:

 

ME24.2GreenxKnap XMASP1102FACC.fmf 45.47 kB · 1 download ME24.2WOFV9Knap451LiberoIFBP97ALLCUPS61%.fmf 45.44 kB · 0 downloads ME24.2WOFKnap424ATTRMP100ALLCUPS.fmf 45.44 kB · 0 downloads

I'll have a look at those, thanks,

8 hours ago, knap said:

@XaW

Can you post your tactic for me to test

Sure, here you are.

FM24v3.fmf

Here is also the link to the thread I used when I started to actually try to learn tactics back in FM17, as it explains the reasoning behind the choices (which are mostly the same still with a few changes).

I am not, and I will never, claim this is a plug and play tactic, or that it works for everyone, but I've used this with only small variations since I created that thread in 2017, and I've always just slightly over-performed compared to the teams expectations.

[XaW]

4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Curious to hear how you go with them.

My view on defending in the game now is that defenders don't seem to press the ball enough (to stop crosses, dribbling or shots).

I doubt these systems will impact the above...

Haven't had the time to look at them yet, but will let you know when I take a look.

[Rodrigogc]

2 horas atrás, Mitja disse:

FM offers too many tactical options and styles which then create big differences in long term performance of AI teams since MEs favour attacking/high intensity tactics. For example when was the last time a real life team tried to play defensive possession football with intent to hide the ball from opposition but without desire to score? Any tactic which employs defensive mentality will play out like that in FM. Why is there such an option in first place?

Simply put AI managers who are more attacking will outperform more cautious ones. AI Pep underperforming for example.

In start there's this huge imbalance which affects whole AI world (actually any more cautious Vs attacking approach). Why?

 

I noticed that with the AI managers as well. In my Fulham save Pep was sacked and Juventus got relegated in the first season. I haven't checked their system, but even without checking I'm sure they were playing a cautious system given their players suit it better. Relegated.

I think there are countless examples of how attacking systems will overpower others no matter what. And defending in football should be easier than attacking, just in case.

Edited February 8 by Rodrigogc

[Mitja]

27 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

And defending in football should be easier than attacking, just in case.

Absolutely. But in FM unrealistically attacking/intense style is op. Do we know why? I think we do.

[knap]

@XaW

 I recommend changing mentality when appropriate, and using control and SUS tactics

[knap]

@whatsupdoc

This set up can work

No counter press

Trigger press less often

Std DL

More direct passing

 

[knap]

@whatsupdoc

FM 22 Tactic that still works without tweaking

Many set ups can work with this ME

[dunk105]

On 03/02/2024 at 22:53, whatsupdoc said:

The top tactics are all, without exception, absolutely stupid. 

Go to the tactics forum and look at Knap's testing thread. All the top tactics effectively leave 2 players in defence.

- two attacking wing-backs

- two DMs with forward runs

- am (a)

Etc etc 

Most also use universal hard tackling, high pressing, high tempo, low crosses.

These are all massively overpowered regardless of attributes. i.e. it is better to cross low to a big striker, better to gegenpress with an unsuitable team etc etc etc.

Not to mention near post corners. 

This is a version of the game where football logic (as you are trying to apply) is almost completely out the window. If you try to use it, you put yourself at a massive disadvantage. 

Some simple logic still works. Like, if you have a big guy on the back post and cross to him, yay, it works. But overall trying to create a balanced system is no match for this hyper attacking BS which IRL would get smashed every second week.

This.

The annoying thing is that as I see with my real life supported club Spurs that if you leave two men back, and also tackle aggressively you will concede a lot of goals, and also pick up a lot of suspensions. Its high risk with potential high reward.

Feels with many things that the ME is dictated not solely by what should be happening due to player ability and both sides tactics, but also by the need to hit certain numbers for things like yellow cards to show the simulation is in life with real life statistics. This is why they stick hard tackling on as its clear from playing against teams who rack up 30 odd fouls and whom end up with the same or less yellows than me that the game will limit numbers of cards against a certain tolerance to fit the numbers SI feel should be seen. So statistically its realistic but it watching games in isolation not so. Therefore using hard tackling does not have the high risk bit, but plenty of reward.

Still saying that I haven't enjoyed a version of FM as much as I have FM24 for so long I can't remember what previous release was this much fun.

[batsy23]

1 saat önce, Mitja said:

Absolutely. But in FM unrealistically attacking/intense style is op. Do we know why? I think we do.

You're right and this is the root problem. We just want this: If i have right players, every realistic style needs to work. Sometimes we may fail due to morale or injuries, it's ok. Our style of play may be incompatible with the league, it's ok too. Moreover, these are things that should happen. I don't wanna say: "Things don't work, let's all of us go attacking". That's boring and immersion killer. And of course that's not football or football manager. That's not football manager because in the past days, football manager gives us more realistic football simulation experience. 

 

51 dakika önce, dunk105 said:

This.

The annoying thing is that as I see with my real life supported club Spurs that if you leave two men back, and also tackle aggressively you will concede a lot of goals, and also pick up a lot of suspensions. Its high risk with potential high reward.

Feels with many things that the ME is dictated not solely by what should be happening due to player ability and both sides tactics, but also by the need to hit certain numbers for things like yellow cards to show the simulation is in life with real life statistics. This is why they stick hard tackling on as its clear from playing against teams who rack up 30 odd fouls and whom end up with the same or less yellows than me that the game will limit numbers of cards against a certain tolerance to fit the numbers SI feel should be seen. So statistically its realistic but it watching games in isolation not so. Therefore using hard tackling does not have the high risk bit, but plenty of reward.

Still saying that I haven't enjoyed a version of FM as much as I have FM24 for so long I can't remember what previous release was this much fun.

You're right with risk/reward issue.

[knap]

@dunk105

As also a Spurs fan, attacking high press is fine by me

[wazzaflow10]

2 hours ago, dunk105 said:

Feels with many things that the ME is dictated not solely by what should be happening due to player ability and both sides tactics, but also by the need to hit certain numbers for things like yellow cards to show the simulation is in life with real life statistics. This is why they stick hard tackling on as its clear from playing against teams who rack up 30 odd fouls and whom end up with the same or less yellows than me that the game will limit numbers of cards against a certain tolerance to fit the numbers SI feel should be seen. So statistically its realistic but it watching games in isolation not so. Therefore using hard tackling does not have the high risk bit, but plenty of reward.

Matches do not look at overall count of league or team stats (cards, goals, fouls etc) when determining the outcome of an individual event to make it fit inside a box. It's just pure conditional probability with the conditions coming from inputs inside the context of the match. To do otherwise would necessitate the entire season of every league be simulated every time you make a change or do something other than press continue. You'd be waiting for days in real life to complete one compute cycle.

Edited February 8 by wazzaflow10
grammar

[dunk105]

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Matches do not look at overall count of league or team stats (cards, goals, fouls etc) when determining the outcome of an individual event to make it fit inside a box. It's just pure conditional probability with the conditions coming from inputs inside the context of the match. To do otherwise would necessitate the entire season of every league be simulated every time you make a change or do something other than press continue. You'd be waiting for days in real life to complete one compute cycle.

Sure Im wrong but when its been flagged that for example that the AI seem to in some games visually kick the life out of the players team and end up with 30+ fouls , and yet they'll receive maybe 1 or 2 cards the response from SI has always been that "its fine as total cards fall within real life limits" which does suggest their is some kind of balancing done here as they are unconcerned that it can make some matches absurd as long as the total across a season is fine.

Its hardly a huge amount of work to ensure that despite high numbers of fouls that refs keep the card count at a certain level to keep within a slim deviation of real life limits, and it wouldnt take days, or need other games be re-simulated due to the detail levels most play at which will also ensure certain statistics stay within a set deviation from the real life mean. 

[dunk105]

2 hours ago, knap said:

@dunk105

As also a Spurs fan, attacking high press is fine by me

Ah makes a lot of sense the inspiration for some of your stuff!

Now if we could just have IWB-auto allow it so we could get the same play out from the back, and our inverted wingbacks both go inside and outside as theyve allowed wingers this year!

[knap]

@dunk105

Tried to make a 451version

 

[AntSou]

On 07/02/2024 at 15:43, santy001 said:

Do people actually find tactics they download are anywhere near as effective in their own gameplay as they are in the "testing" that pops up? A lot of the tactic testing methodologies leave an awful lot to be desired. It's partly why they're of so little use to SI overall I feel. 

Any game that has thousands of minds throwing their collective effort at it will have a meta emerge though. FM isn't some rare exception, games just can't stand up to that level of scrutiny and not fold in some way.

It used to. Back in FM14 I had a plug and play tactic which I designed and I used it for everything because it worked regardless of scenario. It gave me good results without feeling ridiculous.

The game got better over the years in this regard. It's more fun that way. The last couple of titles I no longer feel like I'm solving a puzzle in regards to tactics, with right and wrong answers. It's more dynamic.

It still needs improvements. I am still unable to make any tactic with anything below a standard defensive line work.

[Mitja]

5 hours ago, batsy23 said:

Our style of play may be incompatible with the league

Actually this is how I imagined FM would look like in 2024 ten fifteen years ago. We would be discussing different football traditions, every league having its own standards and similar stuff but we're stuck on same issues there were before. ME progress is just too slow for me...

Edited February 8 by Mitja

[harrycarrie]

Lads I ran the below with Luton. 5th first season, PL champions second. It was at that point I completely sacked this version off, game deleted, all files including multiple saves and all graphics deleted. Its a joke and has been for years. I adore this game, have done for 30 years but its a shambles these days. I, and others, just keep falling for the hype. I'm 100% as gullible. We do not help ourselves.

 

 

Imagine Luton running that IRL. Madness. Tbf away from tactics I once set Verbruggen as my corner taker, this was assists in the first five games. Madness how broken, silly, and essentially one-note the entire ME is.

 

Edited February 8 by harrycarrie

[wazzaflow10]

1 hour ago, dunk105 said:

Sure Im wrong

You are. The rest of what you said is what they call in AI lingo, hallucinations. There's no giant conspiracy. Its amazing to me people here think SI is some terrible development company but at the same time competent enough to do absurd computing things. 

[Ein]

45 minutes ago, harrycarrie said:

Lads I ran the below with Luton. 5th first season, PL champions second. It was at that point I completely sacked this version off, game deleted, all files including multiple saves and all graphics deleted. Its a joke and has been for years. I adore this game, have done for 30 years but its a shambles these days. I, and others, just keep falling for the hype. I'm 100% as gullible. We do not help ourselves.

 

 

Imagine Luton running that IRL. Madness. Tbf away from tactics I once set Verbruggen as my corner taker, this was assists in the first five games. Madness how broken, silly, and essentially one-note the entire ME is.

 

"I'm afraid those are the kind of tactics teams use nowadays."

"If you think something is wrong, you should post a pkm in the bugs forum."

"If those tactics don't work, people will incessantly complain about it. Revolutions and bloodshed shall sweep the land!"

[batsy23]

2 saat önce, Mitja said:

Actually this is how I imagined FM would look like in 2024 ten fifteen years ago. We would be discussing different football traditions, every league having its own standards and similar stuff but we're stuck on same issues there were before. ME progress is just too slow for me...

Thanks! I also think we need to re-think this ca/pa thing.  Let's think of a football player. This football player may be very strong or fast compared to the Croatian league. However, it makes me think that when a Premier League team transfers this player, the player's stats remain the same. Should the player with 17 pace points in the Croatian league be the same as the player with 17 pace points in the English Premier league? It is debatable. Some stats need to be variable. When this player is transferred, his stats(especially physical ones) must rise or fall according to the level of the league. 

2 saat önce, harrycarrie said:

Lads I ran the below with Luton. 5th first season, PL champions second. It was at that point I completely sacked this version off, game deleted, all files including multiple saves and all graphics deleted. Its a joke and has been for years. I adore this game, have done for 30 years but its a shambles these days. I, and others, just keep falling for the hype. I'm 100% as gullible. We do not help ourselves.

 

 

Imagine Luton running that IRL. Madness. Tbf away from tactics I once set Verbruggen as my corner taker, this was assists in the first five games. Madness how broken, silly, and essentially one-note the entire ME is.

 

This is what I'm trying to say. Very attacking, double mezzala, too many attacking roles. This is not football. Thank you for what you showed.

1 saat önce, Ein said:

"I'm afraid those are the kind of tactics teams use nowadays."

"If you think something is wrong, you should post a pkm in the bugs forum."

"If those tactics don't work, people will incessantly complain about it. Revolutions and bloodshed shall sweep the land!"

We're all tired of hearing this, right? All the time they want proof but they don't think this: We're tired. We are tired of witnessing the state of something we love and care about. If you want proof, don't ask us. Because we know what's the situation, and for God's sake, you guys know too. No pkm, no bug report, no proof. We're customers, we have a complaint. And make no mistake, you have to do your job well because you have no alternative. 

[wazzaflow10]

2 hours ago, harrycarrie said:

Lads I ran the below with Luton. 5th first season, PL champions second. It was at that point I completely sacked this version off, game deleted, all files including multiple saves and all graphics deleted. Its a joke and has been for years. I adore this game, have done for 30 years but its a shambles these days. I, and others, just keep falling for the hype. I'm 100% as gullible. We do not help ourselves.

 

 

Imagine Luton running that IRL. Madness. Tbf away from tactics I once set Verbruggen as my corner taker, this was assists in the first five games. Madness how broken, silly, and essentially one-note the entire ME is.

 

Not for nothing but this isn't really a reflection of the ME more than it is your desire to break it. You've given it nonsense and it's spit back out something equally nonsensical. This probably isn't something SI invests a ton of time in testing (nor should they) because no AI or human trying to play the game as intended is going to make a tactic like this.

But rather than complain about how broken the game is and tell us you've deleted a game you love so much in great detail why don't you put it to constructive use and capture a few pkms and screenshots and help them improve what you're claiming is broken. It won't happen overnight but it's at least constructive.

 

Edited February 8 by wazzaflow10

[XaW]

12 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

Curious to hear how you go with them.

Ok, so I had some time to play around with them, and quite quickly I found two of them not working at all for me. So I holidayed a season with my tactic, as well as those 3 to see what happens. I know this is not a full test, and that there could be outliers or whatever, but I'm not exactly claiming this to be evidence of anything, just my anecdotal try. My tactic did "ok", and conceded about a goal a game. All the 3 you recommended conceded more. Didn't do the math, but it was about 10-15 goals or more each of them. Two of them also made my team perform worse than "my" tactic. The final one though, did much better than mine, but with a lot of crazy scores along the way. The one that really did well was "ME24.2GreenxKnap XMASP1102FACC", but seeing how it has 7(!) attacking roles (and 0 support roles outside the goalkeeper), this is what I mean by overloading and exploiting the match engine.

And as I said, most of these types of tactics will be exploiting in nature, rather than tactically sound. And I'll repeat myself for clarity, I don't think anyone creating or using these types of tactics are doing anything wrong. Do whatever you'd like. But I will say tactically sound systems work well too, and will also continue to work through updates and new versions of the game, so I'll stick to those.  

[harrycarrie]

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

 

But rather than complain about how broken the game is and tell us you've deleted a game you love so much in great detail why don't you put it to constructive use and capture a few pkms and screenshots and help them improve what you're claiming is broken. It won't happen overnight but it's at least constructive.

 

Not that I personally believe in the bug tracker on here, but fair. Would just mean having to reinstall it and subject myself to it so I'll happily bow out.

[whatsupdoc]

3 hours ago, XaW said:

Ok, so I had some time to play around with them, and quite quickly I found two of them not working at all for me. So I holidayed a season with my tactic, as well as those 3 to see what happens. I know this is not a full test, and that there could be outliers or whatever, but I'm not exactly claiming this to be evidence of anything, just my anecdotal try. My tactic did "ok", and conceded about a goal a game. All the 3 you recommended conceded more. Didn't do the math, but it was about 10-15 goals or more each of them. Two of them also made my team perform worse than "my" tactic. The final one though, did much better than mine, but with a lot of crazy scores along the way. The one that really did well was "ME24.2GreenxKnap XMASP1102FACC", but seeing how it has 7(!) attacking roles (and 0 support roles outside the goalkeeper), this is what I mean by overloading and exploiting the match engine.

And as I said, most of these types of tactics will be exploiting in nature, rather than tactically sound. And I'll repeat myself for clarity, I don't think anyone creating or using these types of tactics are doing anything wrong. Do whatever you'd like. But I will say tactically sound systems work well too, and will also continue to work through updates and new versions of the game, so I'll stick to those.  

Cool. The GreenxKnap is the only one I've tried and yeah generally it overperformed significantly. 

[whatsupdoc]

Meta attributes in 24.2

• Agility - Due to OP low crosses.
• Aggression - Helps with high pressing meta.
• Corners / Jumping / Heading - Near post corners.

I'd also say Decisions and Anticipation seem stronger than usual. Long shots is a more useful stat in fm24 in general. Pace and acceleration retain their usual importance. 

Tackling, marking and strength I think might have reduced importance due to what I perceive as the standoff-ish nature of defending.

 

In terms of PPMs I'm currently looking at:

Good/Meta/better than usual:

• Tries first time shots (on advanced forward). Takes advantage of low-cross / first time finishes meta.
• "Likes ball played to feet", especially for wingers (runs in behind are slightly restricted IMO).
• "Comes deep to get ball", on wingers. Same reason as above.

Bad/worse than usual:

• "Likes to switch ball to opposite flank" on defenders, especially full-backs. (Playing out from the back is very hard to get right in 24.2 IMO - this PPM often leads to ridiculous square balls regardless of decisions/passing attributes).
• "Plays short simple passes" especially for defensive roles. (Same reason as above, I think there are too many mistakes in deep positions and the easier tactics to get right are the ones that get the ball forward without recycling it to the defensive players). 

 

Edited February 9 by whatsupdoc

[CaptainSa]

On 05/02/2024 at 15:36, batsy23 said:

The problem is that there have been years when the game allowed for other styles.

This is one of them. There are plenty of tactics and styles that are viable to succeed with.

[knap]

@whatsupdoc

 Attributes have been in the past, doubt anything has changed

[whatsupdoc]

1 hour ago, knap said:

@whatsupdoc

 Attributes have been in the past, doubt anything has changed

Sorry I don't understand?

[knap]

@whatsupdoc

Have a look in feedback thread re tested attributes

[Brasilia88]

I've mentioned it in order topics, but the AI uses a code:

X=y+z-b (as an example surely, since the official code probably consist of a wall of text).

Therefore, people can meta the tactic due to various reasons: the source code not changing much (Gegenpress being op is a meme at this point), people having more experience with the concept of the game itself, people sharing their tactics and the list goes on.

Moreover, for those who are familiar with other heavy CPU games (e.g. Civilization, EU4) know that you can outperform the AI, because it is railroaded. It doesn't naturally 'learn' (yet!) from it's mistakes or thinks outside the box, which human players obviously do, hence the crazy tactics as seen here. Not even self-driving cars have this option!

The point I'm trying to make is that FM25 is needed for an enormous overhaul. How? It beats me...

However, people will (and should be able to) find meta tactics and training schedules that produce the desirable result.  

  

[Rodrigogc]

19 minutos atrás, Brasilia88 disse:

I've mentioned it in order topics, but the AI uses a code:

X=y+z-b (as an example surely, since the official code probably consist of a wall of text).

Therefore, people can meta the tactic due to various reasons: the source code not changing much (Gegenpress being op is a meme at this point), people having more experience with the concept of the game itself, people sharing their tactics and the list goes on.

Moreover, for those who are familiar with other heavy CPU games (e.g. Civilization, EU4) know that you can outperform the AI, because it is railroaded. It doesn't naturally 'learn' (yet!) from it's mistakes or thinks outside the box, which human players obviously do, hence the crazy tactics as seen here. Not even self-driving cars have this option!

The point I'm trying to make is that FM25 is needed for an enormous overhaul. How? It beats me...

However, people will (and should be able to) find meta tactics and training schedules that produce the desirable result.  

  

This is what is frustrating in the game. I know many people just want to win, but as seasons go by you have to set many limitations to yourself because the AI will not push you. I play chess, the chess engines have already surpassed human comprehension of the game for decades, because the stronger engines play against themselves and keep learning from it. I mean, Kasparov - one of the greatest of all time - lost against a 1997 IBM computer. These days there are engines way stronger.  If something like that could be implemented in FM it'd be amazing, but I don't know if it would be possible.

Edited February 10 by Rodrigogc