Building around an enigmatic 10

[ElJefe4]

anemoia (uncountable)

1. (neologism, uncommon) Nostalgia for a time or a place one has never known.

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In a footballing world increasingly dominated by the principles of Positional Play, the frequency with which I find myself down YouTube rabbit holes enjoying the greatest moments of some of the great playmakers of yesteryear increases.

Whether it is Zinedine Zidane, Rui Costa, Juan Roman Riquelme, Francesco Totti or the countless others that I could name - there is something fascinating to me about these types of players. Players whose ability meant that their managers saw fit to grant them freedom to maximise their talents and impact the game however they could.

I was born in the late 90s so unfortunately was not old enough to have seen these types of players at the absolute peak of their powers, yet still feel a sense of nostalgia when I think of them. I remember Ronaldinho's iconic goal at Stamford Bridge, Kaka's devastating first half display against Liverpool in Istanbul in 2005 and how Zidane's career ended in 2006, but I didn't have the pleasure of watching the best of Roberto Baggio or Michael Laudrup. It goes without saying then that those who are lucky enough to have watched these players would be able to identify their particular playing styles, strengths and weaknesses much more effectively than I ever could from a 10 YouTube minute clip celebrating Gheorghe Hagi, or the Maradona of the Carpathians, as he was dubbed.

What I do know, however, is that I'd love to see a shift in footballing tactics towards allowing these individuals to express themselves fully again, free from the constrains of intense pressing structures and choreographed build up patterns.

With that in mind I embark on my mission. To build a team that competes and wins at the highest level, of course. But to do it in a different way, by building around talented individual(s) given free reign to create, to score, and to capture the imagination of football fans around the world.

The first decision then, is where to start?

Most of the aforementioned players, along with many others that I could continue to reel off, played their football in Italy's Serie A. During the 1990s it was the strongest league in the world and although it doesn't quite have the same gravitas now, it seems the best place to start my journey.

OK, so perhaps not the most challenging starting point given Inter's media prediction of 1st. In my defence though, my focus here is just as much how I win as it is if I win. I will also be using tactics that I'm unfamiliar with having previously almost exclusively played 433 or 442 variants so don't mind giving myself some leeway by picking a stronger side. As a side note, I have an ambition of winning Serie A with each of Italy's '7 sisters', with the possible exception of Lazio as I don't like them.

It was also preferable that I came into a team that had a number 10 who we could build around. No doubt there are players on the market, but I thought why not jump straight in with a ready made playmaker? As many of you will have guessed, for Inter that man is Hakan Calhanoglu.

This man has all the ingredients to succeed: 

• First Touch & Technique
• Vision & Passing
• Set Pieces
• Flair
• Tries Killer Balls Often PPM

His shortcomings also intrigue me. Despite being naturally fit he is not blessed with incredible physicality. He isn't strong, he isn't quick, he's not a natural dribbler a la Maradona or Messi. You may note that I have highlighted the 'Enganche' role, as his mixture of attributes remind me of Juan Roman Riquelme. The videos I have watched of Riquelme suggest that he was in fact a good dribbler, but that perhaps this wasn't his biggest weapon. His major strength seemed to lie in his speed of though, vision and passing.

 

Enganche is an intriguing role that I have never used before in FM. I am slightly worried about how influential Calhanoglu will be given that he will be instructed to 'Hold Position' against opposition that will typically set up with at least 1 DM.

In the brief research I have done, the most common formations that managers went for to get the best out of these players were:

• 41212 / 4312 - a trio of midfielders behind the 10 who would look to control the game and do much of the defensive work and 2 strikers ahead for the 10 to link up with with full backs providing width.
• 352 / 3412 - a back 3 variation that allows the wingbacks to push further on and perhaps combats some of the lack of width in the often narrow diamond set-up.

Both options consist of 2 strikers. Given that Calhanoglu will be starting as a more stationary Enganche that I don't expect to burst into the box too often, the goalscoring burden will fall heavily on the shoulders of these 2 men. This isn't uncommon, for example, although Zidane produced his best goalscoring return at Juventus in 1997/98 with 11 goals, it was Del Piero and Inzaghi who scored the vast majority, with a combined 61.

In Thuram and Martinez we have 2 incredibly well rounded strikers both with attributes of 14 or above for Dribbling, Finishing, First Touch, Heading, Long Shots, Technique, Anticipation, Flair, Off the Ball, Acceleration, Agility, Balance and Pace. In short, if I can't get these 2 scoring regularly then I'm doing something very wrong!

With Thuram I have gone with Complete Forward (Attack) to make use of his hold up play (16 strength) and dribbling ability (16 dribbling). Martinez is a more simple Advanced Forward (Attack).

The midfield and defence is a tricky one for me as I am not used to playing without players in the AMR/MR and AML/ML slots.

My first thought for the 4312 is as follows:

Sommer suits being a Sweeper Keeper as he is excellent at rushing off his line. He is also adept with his feet and can help us play out from the back.

Bastoni and Pavard are both incredibly comfortable on the ball (15 & 15 Passing, 15 & 14 Vision, 14 & 14 First Touch) so the Ball Playing Defender role makes sense.

The full backs will be essential in this tactic. Di Marco is a more well rounded technical player so I have given him the Complete Wing Back (Support) role in the hope that he helps more in build up, I've given him the PI to Cross More Often to make use of his impressive 18 crossing. Dumfries on the right is more technically limited but very fast, strong and aggressive. He's been given a more basic Full Back (Attack) role and has been instructed to Stay Wider.

The lack of a top class DM means I've gone for a flat 3 across midfield with the experienced, hard working and mentally strong Davy Klaasen as the 'sitter' with the simple role of Central Midfielder (Defend). 

Nicolo Barella is a world class Box to Box midfielder who I hope can drive us forward as much as possible. I was initially going to choose Ball Winning Midfielder with the idea that the 3 behind Calhanoglu would do the dirty work. But I thought a more dynamic role would be better in case Calhanoglu is struggling to impact the game.

Davide Frattesi is a very well rounded player but not as dynamic as Barella so I've gone with the more simple Carrilero role in the hope that he can knit things together and provide defensive cover when Dumfries bombs on.

That leads me onto my Team Instructions. 

The idea here is to keep TIs to a minimum as I feel as though it goes against my wish to grant players more freedom. I have some basic ones with the aim of encouraging us to keep a good amount of possession, but I don't want to slow things down to the extent that we fall into games of attack vs defence against low blocks that stifle natural creativity. 

I'll be honest I'm unsure about my OoP instructions. I don't want to go with an intense high press but I do want to remain compact and be difficult to play through once the opposition reaches our midfield. As with most other instructions, I'll see how this goes and tweak if needed.

Thanks for reading so far. If anyone has any thoughts on any of the above, constructive criticism is always welcome (and probably needed!). Likewise if anyone is on a similar path and wants to document their own tactical thoughts, feel free to use this thread as I'll probably post a few updates of my progress and tweaks as I go.

Cheers!

[NineCloudNine]

It's a lovely, wonderful idea. I have the same memories and have watched the same clips .

I hope your tactic works. It certainly looks like it should do. Stable defensive platform, variation in movement and options in attack.

I fear that it won't. I think your main guy will be marked and pressed out of games by DMs and his lack of physicality will be too much of an impediment in a game (meaning both football itself and FM) where physical attributes > mental attributes > technical attributes.

I suspect that what you want to achieve might work better with either a DLF or a SS, though that depends if you're thinking of Totti / Baggio / Ronaldinho (who were forwards) or Zidane / Riquelme / Hagi (who were midfielders).

Please make me wrong

Edited February 2 by NineCloudNine

[ElJefe4]

Thanks for the comment @NineCloudNine. I did share your fears, but I do have an unexpected first update to the thread which may change things slightly!

When I set my heart on a particular tactical style, there's not much that changes my mind. I can quite happily ignore potentially interesting transfer opportunities that don't fit into my plan. However, every now and then an opportunity presents itself that may be too good to turn down.

Paying just £10k per week wages to take Kvaratskhelia on loan for a year? Yes please.

19 dribbling, 19 first touch, 16 passing, 18 technique, 16 composure, 19 flair and 18 agility along with Tries Killer Balls Often, Tries Tricks and Runs With Ball Often. Mouth-watering prospect.

As you'll see from the above screenshot, I've got the Trequartista role earmarked for him. The plan is to drop Calhanoglu into a deeper playmaker role and see if I can get the best out of both of them.

 

Let's see how this plays out...

Edited February 2 by ElJefe4

[ElJefe4]

Didn't get much FM in over the weekend as I was away, but Kvaratskhelia has made a positive start in his Trequartista role. 5 goals in 2 games.

 

[allyc31]

This is very cool. I love the detail you've put into it, explaining your thought process. Can't wait to see how it goes for you

[De Nile]

For the Hakan situation you could also draw inspiration from times when there were more than one magic player on a team. Like Pirlo and Baggio (Brescia), Pirlo and Rui Costa (Milan), Laudrup and Redondo (Real Madrid)? and more.

I also have begun to think more about the classic 10s and I think there seemed to be two different types. The ones who were 9.5s (playmaking + goalscorers mainly forwards)  and the ones who were 10s (more focused on playmaking mainly midfielders).

Of course it easier to label such players as c10s to prevent confusion but when you compare them between each other there is usually those who have better career goal ratios and those who were more a scorer of great goals than a great goalscorer.

Sometimes in FM I tend to not play my 10 in the AM section and opt for playing them in the CM section because most 10s tend to be more inconsistent in front of goal so it can be easier to drop them back and focus more on the playmaking side. Of course there are poor defensively or lacking physically then there usually are runners around the player to clean up for him and to make space.

Edited February 7 by De Nile

[ElJefe4]

17 hours ago, De Nile said:

For the Hakan situation you could also draw inspiration from times when there were more than one magic player on a team. Like Pirlo and Baggio (Brescia), Pirlo and Rui Costa (Milan), Laudrup and Redondo (Real Madrid)? and more.

I also have begun to think more about the classic 10s and I think there seemed to be two different types. The ones who were 9.5s (playmaking + goalscorers mainly forwards)  and the ones who were 10s (more focused on playmaking mainly midfielders).

Of course it easier to label such players as c10s to prevent confusion but when you compare them between each other there is usually those who have better career goal ratios and those who were more a scorer of great goals than a great goalscorer.

Sometimes in FM I tend to not play my 10 in the AM section and opt for playing them in the CM section because most 10s tend to be more inconsistent in front of goal so it can be easier to drop them back and focus more on the playmaking side. Of course there are poor defensively or lacking physically then there usually are runners around the player to clean up for him and to make space.

Definitely agree with this. At the moment I'm getting great returns from Kvara, but Hakan isn't having as much influence from the deeper role. He's got 4 goals and 5 assists in 12 games to be fair but they've all been set pieces. I'm not expecting him to be an assist machine from deep but I don't feel like I'm getting the most out of his:

• 18 Passing
• 17 Vision
• 17 Long Shots
• 17 Flair
• Tries Killer Balls Often PPM
• Tries Long Range Passes PPM

The above scatter graph shows that he sits in the 'Low non-penalty expected goals' which is to be expected but also 'Low quality creating from open play' which isn't great. 

He does fare better when it comes to number of progressive passes though, which is pleasing.

In the set up I posted above I have him playing as a Deep Lying Playmaker (Defend). This comes with Shoot Less Often hardcoded and also means he has a Cautious mentality. Probably not ideal when I want him to be one of my most creative players. The decision (not one I thought about in great detail) probably came from wanting a Defend duty in the middle of that midfield 3 to provide more defensive cover and create a diamond shape.

I could change his duty to Support which would increase his mentality to Positive, but I'm not really a fan of having 3 Support duties in midfield and no Defend duties, especially when all 3 players ahead of the midfield and one of my full backs are on Attack duties. I feel like it could make us a bit too gung-ho, when in an ideal world I want the midfield 3 to be quite solid so the attacking 3 have as much freedom to attack as possible.

Another option would be to swap Hakan and one of the outside central midfielders over, giving them a more defensive role and having Hakan in a more creative playmaker role on the side of the diamond, for example:

 

[ElJefe4]

Also, an update on Kvaratskhelia in the Trequartista role, which proves @De Nile's point about some #10s being more goal scorer than creator - 

He's been on fire. A few of his goals so far - 

[hbsssj]

Very inspiring post. Big fan of idea to make a number 10 shine. Do you use any PIs to make Lautaro and Thuram give some space to Kvaratskhelia score more?

[ElJefe4]

48 minutes ago, hbsssj said:

Very inspiring post. Big fan of idea to make a number 10 shine. Do you use any PIs to make Lautaro and Thuram give some space to Kvaratskhelia score more?

No PIs for the strikers, no. The only one I'd really consider is Stay Wider for Thuram so he moves into the left channel more, but I haven't felt that it is necessary yet.

Just in case anyone is wondering, Thuram currently has 7 goals and 2 assists in 1,013 minutes (144.71 mins per goal), Martinez has 10 goals and 2 assists in 909 minutes (90.90 mins per goal).

[Lordluap]

Like this. 

As you're playing the 4312 with the focus wanting to the central 10, would you not consider using "Focus Play Through the Middle"?

Also, regards to having 2 playmakers - Kvara and Calan, could you adjust to a secondary formation and play full Ancelotti Christmas Tree with an Enganche and Trequarista behind an Advanced Forward?

Or, reverting back to your favoured 433, Use an Advanced Playmaker on the Right Wing and Trequarista on the Left, both sitting narrow - and set your width to very narrow - with the CWB and FB holding width?  These options would prevent any opposition central DM cancelling out your 10 and have Calan in a less dynamic shuttling role and cutting inside... a-la Iniesta when he initially started wide for Barcelona?  Having wide 10's sitting narrow would also allow them to potentially tie-up both  opposition fullbacks and central defenders by floating between the wide and central advanced areas - dominating the half-spaces.  In conjunction with and Advanced Forward pushing central defenders back, you should, in theory, create plenty of space for others to exploit.

Just an idea.

Loving your original post and the nostalgia of watching Gazetta Football Italia on Sunday mornings in the 90's.

[CapitalismReimagined]

Do you think Szoboszlai would be a good 10 to build around? 

[Novem9]

В 05.02.2024 в 00:42, ElJefe4 сказал:

Didn't get much FM in over the weekend as I was away, but Kvaratskhelia has made a positive start in his Trequartista role. 5 goals in 2 games.

 

4312 narrow is one of my favourite tactics! Lovely moves! 

Could you suggest your program for creating GIF animations? 

[ElJefe4]

On 09/02/2024 at 08:45, Lordluap said:

Like this. 

As you're playing the 4312 with the focus wanting to the central 10, would you not consider using "Focus Play Through the Middle"?

Also, regards to having 2 playmakers - Kvara and Calan, could you adjust to a secondary formation and play full Ancelotti Christmas Tree with an Enganche and Trequarista behind an Advanced Forward?

Or, reverting back to your favoured 433, Use an Advanced Playmaker on the Right Wing and Trequarista on the Left, both sitting narrow - and set your width to very narrow - with the CWB and FB holding width?  These options would prevent any opposition central DM cancelling out your 10 and have Calan in a less dynamic shuttling role and cutting inside... a-la Iniesta when he initially started wide for Barcelona?  Having wide 10's sitting narrow would also allow them to potentially tie-up both  opposition fullbacks and central defenders by floating between the wide and central advanced areas - dominating the half-spaces.  In conjunction with and Advanced Forward pushing central defenders back, you should, in theory, create plenty of space for others to exploit.

Just an idea.

Loving your original post and the nostalgia of watching Gazetta Football Italia on Sunday mornings in the 90's.

Thanks for the comment, really interesting ideas. I have actually had Focus Play Through the Middle along with a few other TIs, just hadn't done a follow up post to show them.

I like the Christmas Tree formation idea. At the moment it would mean dropping Thuram who's a really good forward and playing another more defensive/central midfield player and, Barella aside, I haven't really got great options there. It's something I'll keep in mind when it comes to the summer transfer window though, although I think my chances of getting Kvara permanently are pretty slim anyway so it's quite difficult to plan at the moment.

On 09/02/2024 at 12:19, CapitalismReimagined said:

Do you think Szoboszlai would be a good 10 to build around? 

Yeah he probably would be. Taking a quick look at his attributes on FM he's got good First Touch, Long Shots, Passing, Technique, Vision and Flair and a couple of interesting Player Traits such as Tries Killer Balls Often and Tries Tricks.

He's also got very good Pace, Stamina and Work Rate but doesn't have great Agility so I personally see him as a player who'd thrive more in big open spaces rather than the congested number 10 area. His decisions (13) would probably need to improve slightly to reach the really elite level, but no reason why he couldn't be a very good #10.

On 09/02/2024 at 19:25, Novem9 said:

4312 narrow is one of my favourite tactics! Lovely moves! 

Could you suggest your program for creating GIF animations? 

Thanks mate! I use Screen To Gif, you can download it from here: https://www.screentogif.com/ 

Really simple and useful tool.

[3rik]

Trying this out for a bit and two things have I noticed for my team.

1. Must have strong defenders with good heading/jumping reach ability and a goalkeeper that is good in the air. First matches I had a really small keeper and got punished severly by teams using the outside of the pitch to put pressure. My defencers were not good enough to keep the forwards away and the keeper was gluyed to the line instead of goiung out to get the ball. A extra plus if your wide defenders are decent at heading/jumping reach as well. I have switched out the keeper and my two centre backs for next season which I hope will fix my defensive problems a lot. But I will continue to investigate how this problem occurs depening on if the opponents have 1 or 2 forwards or IF on both sides.

2. Using "Work the ball into the box" against smaller teams that don't push their defensive line forward. It keeps the pressure arounbd the opponents box and let my players move forward and a more steady flow of the game for my team at least. 

It's a really interesting tactic that I like a lot! Will continue to use this as a inspiration and see if my teaams can wion something with this. 

[ElJefe4]

Currently pondering ways of getting Hakan to play a more expansive role from deep. As I've previously mentioned, his Role/Duty in the current set up means he has a Cautious mentality. I may just add 'More Direct Passing' and 'Take More Risks' as PIs but I've just noticed something that I found slightly strange and thought would be worth sharing. Maybe people already know this but for anyone who doesn't - 

When in the DM strata as a Deep Lying Playmaker (Defend or Support duty) you can't increase the passing directness, whereas you can if he plays in the MC strata.

Currently pondering (and would appreciate any opinions) the best balance. I want him to sit as the deepest midfielder, ideally picking the ball up from the centre backs and having the option to spray passes around the pitch.

I think CM/Support/More Direct Passing/Take More Risks/Positive Mentality may be too attacking and could lead to too many unnecessary risks. 

From the other options, what do people think is most likely to produce what I'm looking for? 

EDIT - Ah, I forgot to check how the above was linked to Team Instructions. I had 'Shorter Passing' selected for the whole team, which was limiting what players in the DM strata could be asked to do. I've now removed it so the team passing directness sits at the default 'Slightly Shorter'. This now allows me to increase his Passing Directness and Passing Risk while in the DM strata.

Still interested to get people's thoughts on Player Mentality though. How would a DLP in the DM strata on Defend with More Direct Passing and Take More Risks (Cautious Mentality) differ to a DLP/DM/Support Duty with the same instructions who has Positive Mentality? Are the differences going to be in how they use the ball, how far they advance up the pitch or both?

Edited February 15 by ElJefe4

[WhyMe]

This is a slightly left field suggestion, but have you considered dropping the entire CM line  to the DM  strata  and playing  Hakan as a  regista?  For example, if you played him on the right of trio of Vol-s  ---- HB-d  -----  Reg-s then he would move centrally as the HB drops and he would orchestra things from the deep position without having too much defensive responsibility.  Basically make him the new Pirlo.  You could probably also do something with him as a Reg in the central position with a BWM or DM-d on the right instead of a HB.

[ElJefe4]

End of season update

Another update as I finally finish the season.

Despite league form dropping off slightly in the last few games it was a brilliant season in Serie A. The most obvious positive being the amount of goals we scored.

I said in my first post that if I couldn't get Martinez and Thuram scoring then I was doing something wrong, thankfully this wasn't an issue in the slightest.

Goals dried up a bit for Martinez towards the end, only 6 in his last 16 of the season. 

The one we all want to see though is how our enigmatic Trequartista fared...

30 goals and 13 assists in an Inter shirt is not bad at all for the loanee!

If I was going to really nit-pick I'd say it was a shame we didn't see more dribbling. His 19 dribbling and Runs With Ball Often player trait would suggest he should be doing this a lot. Worth remembering though that the above graphic is comparing him to wingers, whereas he played all of his minutes centrally.

We also had an excellent run in the Champions League but were frustratingly undone by Man City's set pieces and departed at the semi final stage. Even more frustrating given that the final against Leipzig would have very winnable on paper.

Did make a few tweaks in a couple of these games, defended deeper, set our passing to more direct. A couple of times swapped Thuram to a Target Forward and moved him to the right hand side of the strike partnership so that he was up against Lisandro Martinez in the United tie and Alaba in the Madrid tie. 

[ElJefe4]

For the majority of the season the tactic used was something similar to this:

Definitely need to make it more solid defensively if I do stick with Inter for season 2. Conceding 43 in 38 league games isn't terrible given the amount of goals we score, but it makes life very difficult in Europe.

In total in the Champions League we played 12 games, scoring an impressive 32 but conceding 19. We simply can't win the biggest prize in European football if we can't shut up shop more effectively against the top sides.

Transfers IN:

Going into season 2 Inter already have some loanees that will join permanently.

- Davide Frattesi joins from Sassuolo for £23 million. He was excellent this season, racking up the 3rd most minutes of any outfield player and contributing 6 goals and 13 assists.
- Carlos Augusto joins permanently  for £6.5 million after his loan from Monza. He was an able deputy to Dimarco, playing just over 2000 minutes and providing 10 assists, which is actually double that of our starting left back.
- Marko Arnautovic is the final loanee who is joining on a permanent deal, £6.75 million from Bologna. Not particularly happy about spending this money on a 35 year old but there's nothing I can do about it. In his defence he somehow managed to hit double figures, scoring 11 times despite his limited minutes. He had the best mins per goal ratio in the squad, bagging every 82 minutes.

- Guido Rodriguez joins on a free from Real Betis. I'm hoping his excellent Tackling, Anticipation, Positioning etc can help us defensively.

 

Transfers OUT:

- Juan Cuadrado (36 y/o), Matteo Darmian (34 y/o), Alexis Sanchez (35 y/o), Henrikh Mkhitaryan (35 y/o) and Stefano Sensi (28 y/o) are all moving on. Decent players but their contracts are expiring and I don't want to renew them given their age.

There are areas of the squad that I need to improve, depth in midfield in particular. Much of our transfer business though will revolve around what happens in the #10 spot. Unfortunately I don't see a way in which the board sanction a move to make Kvaratskhelia's move permanent. The eye-watering £111 million it would take just isn't viable unfortunately. 

What comes next?

That leaves me with a bit of a dilemma, do I:
- Go back to the original plan with Calhanoglu as a classic #10?
- Find another Trequartista that we can afford and make a permanent signing?
- Move elsewhere?

[ElJefe4]

 

Edited February 18 by ElJefe4

[dieu]

Firstly I want to thank you for this thread, you inspired me to try somehing similar and the results has been amazing!

My version is similar to yours but with one major difference. I invert my wing backs to try and overload the midfield even more, and I though that maybe you could try something similar if you want to be more solid at the back for those big games?
I am not scoring as freely as you have (91 goals in 34 matches), but I am not conceding as much as you either. (26 in 34).

The Trequartista is performing like a beast here as well. (22 goals and 22 assist for the main man, and 19 / 15 for the backup)


 

Edited February 19 by dieu

[BadAss88]

As a big Roberto Baggio fan, you inspired me and I'm eager to try a Trequartista-tactic.. I was thinking about the following:

 

[WhyMe]

@ElJefe4also want to add my thanks for providing inspiration for a new save, this got me curious whether a 4-3-1-2 with 3 DMs could work and do well and I have to say despite playing with a mid-table Italian team (Fiorentina) rather than Inter it has been a big success, really enjoyed the football with a lot of goals scored and few conceded.

The front 3 are the same as you and only small changes to the back 5, mainly due to personnel available (RCB BPD on cover and LCB on a regular CB on defend and GK SK-d).

The midfield DM  3 I am using are Vol-s ---- Reg-s ----- BWM-s with hold position PI on the BWM.  Depending on the opposition formation the Vol does occasionally go on an attack duty, but generally speaking this has worked very well.

I do also have 2 alternative formations set for if the standard formation isn't working well, a 4-2-2-2 DM AM box formation (mostly use this against opposition box formations) and a 4-3-2-1 Christmas tree with 3 DMs and 2 AMs, but the standard formations is used in about 90% of matches.

Happy to post some further details if anyone is interested, but this is mostly just to say thanks :-)

[TheMartello]

1 hour ago, WhyMe said:

@ElJefe4also want to add my thanks for providing inspiration for a new save, this got me curious whether a 4-3-1-2 with 3 DMs could work and do well and I have to say despite playing with a mid-table Italian team (Fiorentina) rather than Inter it has been a big success, really enjoyed the football with a lot of goals scored and few conceded.

The front 3 are the same as you and only small changes to the back 5, mainly due to personnel available (RCB BPD on cover and LCB on a regular CB on defend and GK SK-d).

The midfield DM  3 I am using are Vol-s ---- Reg-s ----- BWM-s with hold position PI on the BWM.  Depending on the opposition formation the Vol does occasionally go on an attack duty, but generally speaking this has worked very well.

I do also have 2 alternative formations set for if the standard formation isn't working well, a 4-2-2-2 DM AM box formation (mostly use this against opposition box formations) and a 4-3-2-1 Christmas tree with 3 DMs and 2 AMs, but the standard formations is used in about 90% of matches.

Happy to post some further details if anyone is interested, but this is mostly just to say thanks :-)

Maybe screenshots of the tactic and results? Always interested to see!

[Vizzini]

How do you work around the fact that most teams in the game employ a formation with 1-2 DMS? I found playmakers in the AMC-position to get quite low ratings as they are usually marked/crowded out of the game, not really getting on the ball much. The only success I have had has been with an AM-A or a SS-A, but they are basically second strikers, so would not class them as a classic 10.

[Overmars]

On 18/02/2024 at 12:07, ElJefe4 said:

Definitely need to make it more solid defensively if I do stick with Inter for season 2. Conceding 43 in 38 league games isn't terrible given the amount of goals we score, but it makes life very difficult in Europe.

In total in the Champions League we played 12 games, scoring an impressive 32 but conceding 19. We simply can't win the biggest prize in European football if we can't shut up shop more effectively against the top sides.

You could keep the attacking trio the same and swap out an MC for another CD in matches against high reputation teams. I have also had some success with a 4-3DM-1-2 formation, but that requires 3 DMs and isn't always viable when you have pure MCs in the team.

Have you tried a narrow 4-3-2-1? I gave that a shot in FM24 but never found the right combination. Maybe your two creative AMCs would pair well together in that formation.

[WhyMe]

On 05/03/2024 at 18:45, TheMartello said:

Maybe screenshots of the tactic and results? Always interested to see!

Here you are

Tactic with season 2 first 11:

 

Only PIs are get further forward and move into channels on the Vol and hold position on the BWM.

The team instructions shown are the default ones I start most games with, but I will drop the trap inside option when facing other narrow formations and the defensive line to standard when facing good teams with fast but short strikers.

 

I do a lot of rotating due to European commitments so my players are not top in the league individually for goal scoring or assists etc. though several of them do feature in the top 5 for various aspects.  However, due to the quality difference in the champions league they don't get on those lists.

Bearing in mind I do use 2 other narrow formations as mentioned so players won't always be in exactly the same positions, in terms of positional performance the biggest contributors to goals scored are as you would expect the best performers are the front 3 with goals spread fairly evenly between them  with about 27 each in 47 matches.  Assists wise the stand out is the FB-a with 23 assists in 47 matches followed by the CF-a with 16, the CWB-a with 15 and the TQ with 14, with the reg-s also contributing 10.

Despite the high assists from the full backs the positional assists picture doesn't have many from the flanks from the last 50 league matches (again not all from the main formation) and the majority are not crosses.

 

In terms of match performances the best of the season so far was an 8-1 against Spezia

Other notable results were a 4-0 away win against Lazio

and a run of 4 games in a row against Inter with 3 wins and a draw (freak draw to play them in the Italian cup and champions league round of 16 and the league in subsequent matches).  All of those matches were very close though with fairly even XG in most of them, though the best performance was:

 

To balance that out a bit the worst performances of the season were against Atletico Madrid and Napoli, both result in defeats.  The first one (Napoli) was perhaps a tad unlucky, but we didn't create any decent chances as you can see with the low XG per shot and Napoli created one really good chance which they put away.

The second was a similar story in that we created naff all, but Atletico Madrid were dominant creating several good chances and truth is we were lucky to escape with a 2-0 defeat.  The stats don't really reflect quite how bad we were.

Edited March 8 by WhyMe

[gg10]

On 07/03/2024 at 21:52, Vizzini said:

How do you work around the fact that most teams in the game employ a formation with 1-2 DMS? I found playmakers in the AMC-position to get quite low ratings as they are usually marked/crowded out of the game, not really getting on the ball much. The only success I have had has been with an AM-A or a SS-A, but they are basically second strikers, so would not class them as a classic 10.

Agree with this. Even the Trequartista role (which is considered a playmaker), would only get high ratings when he bursts forward into the box, acting like a striker. I usually play a diamond or 4-3-1-2 with emphasis on possession and working the ball into the box. What I've found is that during the attacking phase buildup, the Trequartista would advance from the hole and camp inside the box, acting like a Poacher. This would lead to him scoring lots of goals, however most of them would be boring and unappealing tap-ins or rebounds, which defeats the purpose of him being a Fantasista.

IMO, the role that would mimic closely the classical 10 or fantasista would be the AMC roles that are on Support. I prefer the blank slate AM-Support, with the instructions of the Treq turned on. That way, he can have all the freedom he wants, but due to the nature of the Support role, would stay in the 10 spot most of the time, only going forwards to supplement the attack. The only problem is that he would usually be marked out by DMs, leading to very low ratings and no goals/assists. Hopefully somebody can shed some light to this and offer solutions.

[josh.miller92]

4 hours ago, gg10 said:

Agree with this. Even the Trequartista role (which is considered a playmaker), would only get high ratings when he bursts forward into the box, acting like a striker. I usually play a diamond or 4-3-1-2 with emphasis on possession and working the ball into the box. What I've found is that during the attacking phase buildup, the Trequartista would advance from the hole and camp inside the box, acting like a Poacher. This would lead to him scoring lots of goals, however most of them would be boring and unappealing tap-ins or rebounds, which defeats the purpose of him being a Fantasista.

IMO, the role that would mimic closely the classical 10 or fantasista would be the AMC roles that are on Support. I prefer the blank slate AM-Support, with the instructions of the Treq turned on. That way, he can have all the freedom he wants, but due to the nature of the Support role, would stay in the 10 spot most of the time, only going forwards to supplement the attack. The only problem is that he would usually be marked out by DMs, leading to very low ratings and no goals/assists. Hopefully somebody can shed some light to this and offer solutions.

Agreed on the Treq positioning. 

I’ve had some success with a wide AP A on sit narrow in a 3-4-2-1 ( Alonso inspired). Feel like he attacks the half spaces a little better.

I wonder how it would work with a 4312 diamond with the 10’ in the CM strata, again as an AP A?

alternatively trying the Treq in the striker position ?

Edited March 9 by josh.miller92

[NineCloudNine]

5 hours ago, gg10 said:

IMO, the role that would mimic closely the classical 10 or fantasista would be the AMC roles that are on Support. I prefer the blank slate AM-Support, with the instructions of the Treq turned on. That way, he can have all the freedom he wants, but due to the nature of the Support role, would stay in the 10 spot most of the time, only going forwards to supplement the attack. The only problem is that he would usually be marked out by DMs, leading to very low ratings and no goals/assists. Hopefully somebody can shed some light to this and offer solutions.

I don’t think there is a solution. The role no longer exists in football, having been squeezed out by DMs and pressing. Players who would in the past have been ’classic #10s’ are now playing either as CMs (De Bruyne, Pedri), or wingers (Kvaratskhelia, Grealish).

This enjoyable thread is one of a rich lineage of people trying the same thing and it almost never works. An exceptional player will have the occasional great game agsinst weaker opponents or favourable formations, but it won’t be consistent. I wish this wasn’t so.

Edited March 9 by NineCloudNine

[gg10]

On 09/03/2024 at 18:00, NineCloudNine said:

I don’t think there is a solution. The role no longer exists in football, having been squeezed out by DMs and pressing. Players who would in the past have been ’classic #10s’ are now playing either as CMs (De Bruyne, Pedri), or wingers (Kvaratskhelia, Grealish).

This enjoyable thread is one of a rich lineage of people trying the same thing and it almost never works. An exceptional player will have the occasional great game agsinst weaker opponents or favourable formations, but it won’t be consistent. I wish this wasn’t so.

That's modern football for you I guess. While I have been having difficulties with narrow formations such as the diamond/4-3-1-2, I have found that getting a 10 to work in a 4-2-3-1 is somewhat easier. Due to most formations nowadays using a DM, moving the 10 to the half spaces would actually make him thrive. In my tactic, this can be achieved by placing the double pivots in the DM strata, with one acting as an SV.

 

Due to this year's positional play improvements to the ME, the SV would bomb forward to the AM strata, pushing the AMC towards the right half space. The IWB would then move up and tuck in beside the DM, forming a midfield box in a 3-2-5 formation.

 

Pictured above is what the tactic typically looks like during the build up phase. As you can see in the image, the 10 (Torre) is staggered to the right half space (more of an AMCR position). With the wingers providing width and stretching the defense, the AMC has space to work his magic. This can lead to very cool killer balls to the striker, or to the winger cutting inside. He can also dribble and drive the ball forward, going into the box and putting in a cross, like a Mezzala, or having a go at goal himself. The one thing I have learned in the recent FMs is that the Half Space is king, and being able to exploit the half space can help bring out the best of your AMC.

Edited March 11 by gg10

[Los_Culés]

I think that there is generally a big misconception on how somebody like Juan Román Riquelme really played. A lot of people describes him as a "static" Enganche, but it is actually far from truth. He was constantly moving into channels horizontally to receive passes (favouring left hand channel), even finding himself sometimes quite wide near the touchline. He certainly was not as mobile/nimble as eg. somebody like Pablo Aimar/Ariel Ortega, but he was far from "static" off the ball movement wise. I also do not believe that in nowadays football he would be easily marked out of the game. Even the likes of Makelele/Cambiasso were not able to keep him under control. 

 

Anyway, I would like to ask (N10 fans ) how do you rate central play in FM24? I was reading that the central play is lacking because even top players are not inclined to play many through balls. Could you provide some clips of brilliant through balls? I am still playing FM11/12 and do not want to give up my N10 .

 

[JoOSTAR]

On 11/03/2024 at 02:47, gg10 said:

That's modern football for you I guess. While I have been having difficulties with narrow formations such as the diamond/4-3-1-2, I have found that getting a 10 to work in a 4-2-3-1 is somewhat easier. Due to most formations nowadays using a DM, moving the 10 to the half spaces would actually make him thrive. In my tactic, this can be achieved by placing the double pivots in the DM strata, with one acting as an SV.

 

Due to this year's positional play improvements to the ME, the SV would bomb forward to the AM strata, pushing the AMC towards the right half space. The IWB would then move up and tuck in beside the DM, forming a midfield box in a 3-2-5 formation.

 

Pictured above is what the tactic typically looks like during the build up phase. As you can see in the image, the 10 (Torre) is staggered to the right half space (more of an AMCR position). With the wingers providing width and stretching the defense, the AMC has space to work his magic. This can lead to very cool killer balls to the striker, or to the winger cutting inside. He can also dribble and drive the ball forward, going into the box and putting in a cross, like a Mezzala, or having a go at goal himself. The one thing I have learned in the recent FMs is that the Half Space is king, and being able to exploit the half space can help bring out the best of your AMC.

 

What Team Instructions and Player instructions are you using in your tactic?

Would like to try it out!

[Litmanen 10]

2 hours ago, Los_Culés said:

Anyway, I would like to ask (N10 fans ) how do you rate central play in FM24? I was reading that the central play is lacking because even top players are not inclined to play many through balls. Could you provide some clips of brilliant through balls? I am still playing FM11/12 and do not want to give up my N10 .

 

Can be bad but also can be decent based on my own experiences. Cole Palmer was phenomenal in both providing through balls and ending attacks but I mainly played him as CM(A) at Chelsea so it doesn't count.

Isco and Fekir have been awful for me in terms of end product. Isco had tens of times for me to use his vision and passing ability but basically all his through balls went straight to the opposition. Then on the other hand Pablo Torre and Rodri are both brilliant at times as they are more mobile options. Rodri doesn't really play over the top or long through balls but is able to pick the right simple through ball. Torre us the only one that I have really seen playing those long and creative through balls that only some players can pick up. 

[gg10]

7 hours ago, JoOSTAR said:

 

What Team Instructions and Player instructions are you using in your tactic?

Would like to try it out!

My instructions might be overkill and too rigid to some, but this was so far the only way I can be able to have the AMC be more involved by getting more touches on the ball. Here you go:

 

I have my SK pass it to the BPD. As for the PIs, I turned on Dribble less on everyone, except the Wingers and the AMC.

Edited March 15 by gg10

[kiwityke1983]

On 09/02/2024 at 19:19, CapitalismReimagined said:

Do you think Szoboszlai would be a good 10 to build around? 

I used him as an advanced-playmaker playing off the left-wing in a 3-4-3 formation and he scored and assisted absolutely loads 20+ each.

I started out with him in the middle again as an advanced playmaker and he was pretty good but not as effective as he was out wide cutting in and across the defence.

[De Nile]

On 09/03/2024 at 04:13, gg10 said:

IMO, the role that would mimic closely the classical 10 or fantasista would be the AMC roles that are on Support. I prefer the blank slate AM-Support, with the instructions of the Treq turned on. That way, he can have all the freedom he wants, but due to the nature of the Support role, would stay in the 10 spot most of the time, only going forwards to supplement the attack. The only problem is that he would usually be marked out by DMs, leading to very low ratings and no goals/assists. Hopefully somebody can shed some light to this and offer solutions.

I think you are right when we talk about the classic 10 in the AMC position both in real life and in game but what about all the other players who were tagged with the 'classic no 10' but were in more advanced positions such as Del Piero, Zola, Cantona, Roberto Mancini, Bergkamp. These players were very much forwards (second strikers) but still behaved as a classic no 10 most of the time while still being very effective in front of goal. Some of them were born as classic 10s but were forced into playing up front however their talents didn't diminish. I do think these players can be a lot easier to create in game with the 2 striker formations still effective means of progression and easier to create spaces. 

In real life there still are players who are fantasistas; players who have great imagination and creativity as well as tactical intelligence high up the pitch. With the few chances they have in a match- they are players who make the difference, but these days are more complete or are asked to do a lot more than the players of the early 00s and below. It is just that a fantasista can usually play as a no.10 but not every no.10 behaves like a fantasista. Think of Messi, Iniesta, Neymar, De Bruyne, Illicic, Hazard, Dybala. You can arguably call these players fantasistas but they aren't playing in the 10 spot all the time. 

Just wanted to shed some light on players who still have the spark of a classic number 10 but are relocated to show their talents in a different position.

Edited March 16 by De Nile