Strikers with low finishing, can they score lots of goals?

[mdaw1985]

I don't know how many experience this but I have found it a common theme on FM in general that lots of youth strikers have poor finishing stats that don't really improve. Yes their preferred position would be false 9 etc. Many I have converted to wingers or amc. Just wondering if many have had success using them as strikers when they have good stats generally but low finishing and how you have got them scoring well?

[Dagenham_Dave]

A striker with low finishing can still score lots of goals depending on many other factors. His other attributes, the role you give him, the tactic, chances created, etc etc.

Too many people focus on that single attribute for a striker, and I admit, I've been guilty of it myself, but you can miss out on some great players if you don't look at the whole picture. 

[XaW]

Had a striker with 5 finishing carry my Kettering side from Vanarama North to the PL back in FM19. Had a lot of players who were better, but he just performed and scored a lot.

[wazzaflow10]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

Had a striker with 5 finishing carry my Kettering side from Vanarama North to the PL back in FM19. Had a lot of players who were better, but he just performed and scored a lot.

Amazing you took him from the national league to the PL. How did you only manage 600k for a fee though? Seems really low unless he was out of contract?

[enigmatic]

Finishing has zero impact on headers, tap ins, rounding the keeper, shooting from distance etc. 

It will affect players' ability to convert chances, but the difference between Finishing of 8 and 14 isn't as big as many people think, and lots of other things can also make a player with better finishing unreliable at converting chances, like low Composure, Balance, a poor weaker foot etc. 

[rob.jordan]

I echo what the guys above had said. I've had strikers with a relatively low finishing attribute score plenty if they've had other good scores on things like anticipation, composure, decision making, technique etc.  

[XaW]

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Amazing you took him from the national league to the PL. How did you only manage 600k for a fee though? Seems really low unless he was out of contract?

He was rated as a League One striker by the staff, and I foten tried to replace him, but he just performed better than most. And this was back in FM19, where the AI more or less only looked at PCA rather than results.

I just think he fitted excellently into my tactic back then, so he performed way above his real level.

I had to sell him as he had one a year left and wanted a new challenge. He got only a few matches for Burton before they released him and he retired.

[DP]

So is there a real life example of a player who scores lots of goals but has poor ‘finishing’?

I find this area of the game quite confusing. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by DP

[Dagenham_Dave]

3 hours ago, XaW said:

Had a striker with 5 finishing carry my Kettering side from Vanarama North to the PL back in FM19. Had a lot of players who were better, but he just performed and scored a lot.

Good grief, Vietnam style flashbacks on how bad the Newgen faces were in that game! 

[wazzaflow10]

48 minutes ago, XaW said:

He was rated as a League One striker by the staff, and I foten tried to replace him, but he just performed better than most. And this was back in FM19, where the AI more or less only looked at PCA rather than results.

I just think he fitted excellently into my tactic back then, so he performed way above his real level.

I had to sell him as he had one a year left and wanted a new challenge. He got only a few matches for Burton before they released him and he retired.

Makes sense then yeah. I kind of wish (not to confuse this with a tired debate) that players would "look" the part of a PL caliber player if they've had success. Clearly a guy with 10 in 18 would be in much more demand. Game can't be perfect though. 

Guessing this was a youth only save?

[XaW]

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Makes sense then yeah. I kind of wish (not to confuse this with a tired debate) that players would "look" the part of a PL caliber player if they've had success. Clearly a guy with 10 in 18 would be in much more demand. Game can't be perfect though. 

Guessing this was a youth only save?

In FM23 it was more linked to performances. I got some big bucks for what I would call mediocre players that had a good run, and, if we can belive the blogs from Miles, it will be even more like it in FM24.

Yeah, I pretty much only play youth only saves.

[wazzaflow10]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

In FM23 it was more linked to performances. I got some big bucks for what I would call mediocre players that had a good run, and, if we can belive the blogs from Miles, it will be even more like it in FM24.

Yeah, I pretty much only play youth only saves.

Yeah hope so. I was pretty down on the game back in the spring. the new features have me super excited. More than I thought I'd be after the Unity announcement. Hopefully only one more week of waiting for the beta.

[XaW]

4 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Yeah hope so. I was pretty down on the game back in the spring. the new features have me super excited. More than I thought I'd be after the Unity announcement. Hopefully only one more week of waiting for the beta.

Indeed! Looking forward to it myself, as it seems to be everything I've wanted from FM for many years; fix the base functionality to be excellent and I'll be happy. And seeing as they've added stuff I didn't even knew I wanted, I think FM24 looks to deliver based on Miles' description of it as the ultimate version of the current iteration of FM!

[wazzaflow10]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

Indeed! Looking forward to it myself, as it seems to be everything I've wanted from FM for many years; fix the base functionality to be excellent and I'll be happy. And seeing as they've added stuff I didn't even knew I wanted, I think FM24 looks to deliver based on Miles' description of it as the ultimate version of the current iteration of FM!

Absolutely. It went from a I'll play around December on gamepass after the first major patch and buy when its on sale for posterity sake to buy Day 1. Completely booted Cities: Skylines II off the top spot for me. I hope my family doesn't mind that I've gone missing.

[Mst82]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

Indeed! Looking forward to it myself, as it seems to be everything I've wanted from FM for many years; fix the base functionality to be excellent and I'll be happy. And seeing as they've added stuff I didn't even knew I wanted, I think FM24 looks to deliver based on Miles' description of it as the ultimate version of the current iteration of FM!

Do you think it’ll still have the AI one shot one goal characteristic? That’s my favourite thing about FM23 😍, that and the overpowered late comebacks 😍😍

[XaW]

7 minutes ago, Mst82 said:

Do you think it’ll still have the AI one shot one goal characteristic? That’s my favourite thing about FM23 😍, that and the overpowered late comebacks 😍😍

I detect sarcasm.... And obviously poor game management if you allow late comebacks all the time. That's on you, not the game.

[mdaw1985]

So generally speaking have you found them to score well as poachers, advanced forward? I'm still playing fm22 and I'm currently starting my 10th season in the current save with the same team. I did 13 in the previous save. As Real Betis I had a lot of good youth talent come through. I can't remember who I had as the HOYD in that save before he retired. When I moved onto Leipzig from Betis I didn't get much in the way of good youth in that save. In this current save I've had one decent player come through who was a cm (again who can't shoot) but every striker apart from one has had below 10 finishing. I now have one with 15 but rubbish at everything else 😂

[phnompenhandy]

To support what everyone else is saying, as a lower league manager I see this all the time. For one, attributes are relative to the opposition, so a poor striker can do well against poor defences. Secondly, no attribute works in isolation; a striker with poor finishing but good mentals such as off the ball can get in the right places for converting easy chances, especially if the oppo defence has poor positioning.

[bigmattb28]

Play any LLM save and have a quick striker with any number for finishing and you've got a goal scorer on your hands. Pace > finishing in LLM saves.

[bigmattb28]

15 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Good grief, Vietnam style flashbacks on how bad the Newgen faces were in that game! 

I had a pretty bad looking regen back in 19 in 'Nam. Not Vietnam, but Dagenham. Still gives me the heeby jeeby's.

[srvngrc]

There are a lot of things that go into a striker's ability to score goals. Finishing is just one of them. Attributes like pace, acc, strength, agility, anticipation, off the ball, first touch etc. are all affects a striker's ability to get into goal positions. Tecnique, composure, decisions, finisihing etc is important to turn the chances into goals. 

So a good player with low finisihing can score lots of goals. 

[Freakiie]

19 hours ago, DP said:

So is there a real life example of a player who scores lots of goals but has poor ‘finishing’?

I find this area of the game quite confusing. 

The newgen template is just stupid, I have no idea why we've had newgen strikers coming through with insanely low finishing for years now. In real life these players either would've been moved to another position, moved on or forced to actually improve their finishing and show they can hit the back of the net.

There are definitely players in real life that aren't great at finishing chances that still score lots of goals as they manage to create a lot of chances for themselves. For real players these players are given poor mentals and average finishing by the researchers, to replicate these players not being consistent with chances, so the real life 5 finishing striker doesn't exist, as he'd instead be the real life 5 composure/consistency etc striker.

[agent007]

On 13/10/2023 at 07:42, XaW said:

Had a striker with 5 finishing carry my Kettering side from Vanarama North to the PL back in FM19. Had a lot of players who were better, but he just performed and scored a lot.

physical>mental>technical. he will out 75% of DCs in vnl to championship 

[XaW]

9 hours ago, agent007 said:

physical>mental>technical. he will out 75% of DCs in vnl to championship 

Yup, but even in the PL he delivered. I assumed it was because we were underdogs in pretty much all matches, so we got a lot of space and his speed, anticipation, and decisions gave him a lot of space to work in.

[Brother Ben]

On 14/10/2023 at 08:22, bigmattb28 said:

I had a pretty bad looking regen back in 19 in 'Nam. Not Vietnam, but Dagenham. Still gives me the heeby jeeby's.

[Mst82]

On 13/10/2023 at 20:12, XaW said:

I detect sarcasm.... And obviously poor game management if you allow late comebacks all the time. That's on you, not the game.

I'm so pleased the dramatic loss of form from no where has been retained in FM24, I honestly can't enough of this "feature", thanks so much:

 

[XaW]

10 minutes ago, Mst82 said:

I'm so pleased the dramatic loss of form from no where has been retained in FM24, I honestly can't enough of this "feature", thanks so much:

 

You were on a winning streak and then two draws against good team, and suddenly you struggle. There is an easy fix for this, manage the players expectation in team talks. If you demand too little, they might become complacent, if you demant too much, they become unsure. And especially after the loss to Bournemouth, your main goal should be to lift them back up into a winning mentality. Seems like you didn't. If you want to blame the game, sure go ahead, but this can be handled, if you chose to learn how.

[Dadecane]

On 13/10/2023 at 17:51, DP said:

So is there a real life example of a player who scores lots of goals but has poor ‘finishing’?

I find this area of the game quite confusing. 

Cavani comes to mind. He has 30 minutes worth of open goal bloopers on youtube. Great player tho. But known to miss, a lot. 
 

this next one you may laugh, but those of us who live in spain and have followed madrid for the last 15 yrs or so can agree; Benzema was never a great finisher. Hes a much better creator, facilitator than he is a finisher. Not until the last few yrs (when CR7 left) did he really come forward and become a lethal finisher. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, Mst82 said:

I'm so pleased the dramatic loss of form from no where has been retained in FM24, I honestly can't enough of this "feature", thanks so much:

 

The poorer results have coincided with a run of 4 away games in 5 matches. I mean, it's not like you were cuffing teams prior to this either. Five of your previous nine wins were by one goal, AND you've only lost 2 games, also both by the odd goal. This happens countless times to countless teams in real life. Or are you just expecting to win every week? 

[Mst82]

27 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The poorer results have coincided with a run of 4 away games in 5 matches. I mean, it's not like you were cuffing teams prior to this either. Five of your previous nine wins were by one goal, AND you've only lost 2 games, also both by the odd goal. This happens countless times to countless teams in real life. Or are you just expecting to win every week? 

Yes Dave, I am. 

[xSEARLEYx]

On 13/10/2023 at 13:42, XaW said:

 

Guy scored 10 in 18, in the Premier League and only Burton were interested in him? Ahaha

Maybe that's why Vardy is still at Leicester 😆

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 hours ago, Mst82 said:

Yes Dave, I am. 

At least you're honest! 

[Mst82]

2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

At least you're honest! 

 

[DownTheFrank]

On 13/10/2023 at 15:51, DP said:

So is there a real life example of a player who scores lots of goals but has poor ‘finishing’?

I find this area of the game quite confusing. 

Raheem sterling. 

Darwin Nunez. 

[NineCloudNine]

On 24/02/2024 at 22:42, DownTheFrank said:

Raheem sterling. 

Darwin Nunez. 

Nunez came to mind for me as well. But I think the fuller answer is from @Freakiie above: strikers who miss chances IRL are likely to be given average finishing but poor composure / first touch etc by researchers. So you’d see 10 finishing / 5 composure players, never 5 finishing / 10 composure. However, the newgen template in the game can give you a 5 / 10 player.

[Delicate Dave]

I tend to think the finishing attribute is as important to strikers as the passing attribute is to midfielders. You can have a midfielder with 20 but if their first touch or vision is 5 how good at picking a pass are they? Same with strikers 20 finishing is great but first touch and composure 5 you can keep him IMO. 

[DP]

2 hours ago, Delicate Dave said:

I tend to think the finishing attribute is as important to strikers as the passing attribute is to midfielders. You can have a midfielder with 20 but if their first touch or vision is 5 how good at picking a pass are they? Same with strikers 20 finishing is great but first touch and composure 5 you can keep him IMO. 

Which then leads to the question of how first chance is computed when strikers are taking on chances. How noticeable would it be to have a 20 finishing striker with 1 first touch and one with 20 in both attributes? Would you notice this in the animation and the stats at the end of the season? I’m not sure…

I think there is a lot of smoke and mirrors with regards to attributes. Remember, this system was designed when we had to imagine the goals (pre graphics engine) and I still think there is some imagination that exists with how attributes work. Some tests that have been performed appear to support this too. 

Edited February 28 by DP

[fc.cadoni]

It's always combination of attributes and not a single one. Finishing, Composure, Decisions, Strength for example.

[Delicate Dave]

2 hours ago, DP said:

Which then leads to the question of how first chance is computed when strikers are taking on chances. How noticeable would it be to have a 20 finishing striker with 1 first touch and one with 20 in both attributes? Would you notice this in the animation and the stats at the end of the season? I’m not sure…

I think there is a lot of smoke and mirrors with regards to attributes. Remember, this system was designed when we had to imagine the goals (pre graphics engine) and I still think there is some imagination that exists with how attributes work. Some tests that have been performed appear to support this too. 

I don't think it's a sort of one one-on-one thing. Ie the player with the ball against the keeper. It's code based on your choices nothing more. If your team choices are so much better than the game's choice any player will score any type of goal. The are a few ways to look at attributes - either on each player level or on a team level. Both have to be good enough for success IMO.  

[DP]

8 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

It's always combination of attributes and not a single one. Finishing, Composure, Decisions, Strength for example.

You hope.