What do YOU do when your team's in poor form?!

[Guerin]

So I was top of the league, now I'm ten points adrift... I looked through the match stats of the last few games and I'm still creating chances and giving few away, but for some reason I just can't buy a win. The last game I had 4 clear cut opportunities and 6 half chances but lost 1-0 despite the opposition creating no chances. The game before that I was 1-0 up only for a poor set piece goal followed by a poor backpass leading to a 2-1 defeat. It just seems like there's nothing wrong with what's happening on the pitch, which is why I'm not inclined to change things, but I seriously need to get a win on the board or I'm out of the title for good (if not already.)

So, what do you do when your team's in poor form? 

Atm I'm just training attacking set-pieces in the hope of snatching a win...

[toffee71]

3 minutes ago, Guerin said:

So I was top of the league, now I'm ten points adrift... I looked through the match stats of the last few games and I'm still creating chances and giving few away, but for some reason I just can't buy a win. The last game I had 4 clear cut opportunities and 6 half chances but lost 1-0 despite the opposition creating no chances. The game before that I was 1-0 up only for a poor set piece goal followed by a poor backpass leading to a 2-1 defeat. It just seems like there's nothing wrong with what's happening on the pitch, which is why I'm not inclined to change things, but I seriously need to get a win on the board or I'm out of the title for good (if not already.)

So, what do you do when your team's in poor form? 

Atm I'm just training attacking set-pieces in the hope of snatching a win...

If your form is that bad maybe try a team meeting (I'd save it first though, just in case), I generally try to ride it out though, fortune always changes eventually.

[skrew]

Since you've mentioned you're top of the league I reckon you're playing as a top-tier team.

If morale is not a problem (at least above average generally) I'd develop a defensive tactic, 'defensive' mentality and grind out a few acceptable results. 
Opponents will see your poor form, therefore they'll be less frightened, which result in them attacking more, leaving space for you to exploit and score a few goals on the counter. 
Also develop a plan-b, a different game plan. The opponents has just figured out how to play against your usual tactic, that's it.

Chance conversion shouldn't be a scope of this, wether it's bad in the game or not, you can't help it.

[Guerin]

I have. Our team morale is actually still pretty good overall, we weren't expected to challenge the title. But, it is fustrating to throw away such a good position. Things I've noticed are:

- Strikers on droughts (2/3)

- Passive tackling

- Hitting the bar... a zillion times a game

- Poor decisions at crucial times

- silly mistakes (intercepted backpasses, own goals etc)

I guess sometimes the team can outperform its stats, and other times it can underperform against them? 

[Guerin]

1 minute ago, skrew said:

I'd develop a defensive tactic, 'defensive' mentality and grind out a few acceptable results. 
 

I dunno if this still applies (I'm an underdog btw) but I do have a defensive strategy I could try for a few games.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Guerin said:

So I was top of the league

 

1 hour ago, Guerin said:

I'm an underdog btw

There's your problem and it's in three parts:

1) Your own expectations.  As an underdog, your Board, your fans, the Media aren't expecting much from you.  Yet because you got yourself to the top of the league, you're now wondering how it's all gone wrong, when nothing has gone wrong.  You're putting pressure on yourself to get back to winning ways simply because of your early season form.  There may be things you can do to reignite your season, but don't try to run before you can walk.

2) AI teams are adapting.  Because you have been in such good form, the AI have seen this and thought to themselves "this team's alright, better start playing more cautiously against them".  Whereas at the start of the season because you are the underdog they thought to themselves "meh underdog, nail on 3 points for us, attack them!".  So your tactical system worked effectively against them to begin with as it successfully exploited the space they were giving you.  But now they've probably tightened up so your system isn't quite so effective any more.  They're now doing to you what you did to them, thus you should probably adapt accordingly (although bear in mind point 1 above).

3) Pressure.  You're top of the league, how are your players feeling?  Nervous?  The pressure getting to them?  That can manifest itself in match as well as during your day to day management.  Perhaps your striker who was scoring for fun has now hit a barren spell and good chances he'd previously score with ease are now going begging.  Pressure of the situation.  So drop your out of form player(s) for a match or two.  Have a word with people.  Hold a team meeting.  But be careful not to increase the pressure any more if you do.  And remember point 1 as well - you may be wanting your players to get back on top but your players probably don't have the same expectations you do.

[duesouth]

2 minutes ago, herne79 said:

3) Pressure.  You're top of the league, how are your players feeling?  Nervous?  The pressure getting to them?

I was going to suggest something on these lines.  Use a carrot and not the stick in this scenario, I would say.  Perhaps try to keep it tight for 60 minutes, and then be a little more aggressive to snatch a goal - you don't have to keep with one tactic for a whole 90 minutes.  If you do get a win - praise them after the game and be a little more aggressive in the next game.  Hopefully the snowball will start to roll the other way and you'll have a better run.

[ceefax the cat]

If he's still creating clear chances and hitting the bar a lot then it's down to luck, surely? If the AI had learned to stymie his tactics he wouldn't be getting chances anymore, and would be conceding them instead. I can see how pressure on strikers might be a thing, but if you're putting chances on a plate for them your tactics are still working.

Edited November 9, 2019 by ceefax the cat

[domperignon]

On 08/11/2019 at 14:15, Guerin said:

So I was top of the league, now I'm ten points adrift... I looked through the match stats of the last few games and I'm still creating chances and giving few away, but for some reason I just can't buy a win. The last game I had 4 clear cut opportunities and 6 half chances but lost 1-0 despite the opposition creating no chances. The game before that I was 1-0 up only for a poor set piece goal followed by a poor backpass leading to a 2-1 defeat. It just seems like there's nothing wrong with what's happening on the pitch, which is why I'm not inclined to change things, but I seriously need to get a win on the board or I'm out of the title for good (if not already.)

So, what do you do when your team's in poor form? 

Atm I'm just training attacking set-pieces in the hope of snatching a win...

FM is a good game but in last iterations has shown 2 (among others) weak points:

- Unrealistic streaks of wins/defeats

- 3 striker systems overpowered

Nothing has changed for fm20.

Now, you are doing nothing wrong, it's just a regression to the mean. Football is a sport where matches are won or lost due to fine margins. One lucky goal, a mistake, etc.. can turn a win to a loss. You were simply "too lucky" and now you are "too unlucky". Football is quite quite random, so are results.

Teams playing more defensively now against you also influences it but, unless terribly missmanaged, any team can go through defensive tactics.

At the end of the season you get the big picture, and you'll, more or less, be where your tactic and players deserve, according to their quality and your tactical ability. You are still overachieving, you should be happy.

This happens too in real life but FM allows exaggerated and unrealistic streaks of wins and defeats which makes users thing they are doing something wrong. There is nothing wrong, it's simply how football is represented in FM, which we'll all agree has room for improvement but still is at least decent.

[skrew]

"- Hitting the bar... a zillion times a game"

Oh man, it's been an issue in fm18, fm19 and as bug reports have it even in fm20 too. 
I've reported it many-many times, had a huge topic with insane amount of screenshot, game saves, etc. to help SI, only to be ignored completely. Just like all the other FM players reporting the same.
 

[Rashidi]

If my team went through a good patch and "suddenly start underperforming" I look at several things;

1. Streaks happen when some players start getting slack and complacent in matches. This can and usually happen which is why squad rotation is such a big part of how I play

2. "AI adapts" I hate using this term because the AI does not adapt in game to subtle changes to take advantage of your weaknesses. What it does is change mentality roles and duties, to what its own expectations are. This is important. If the AI expects to beat you or at least find you "level par" in terms of competitive output, then the AI could very well raise mentality and try and push for a result.  More often though its more long term than that, and it depends on your starting point. If you are overachieving chances are it will now be more cautious against you. This shift in mentality in terms of the TC is kinda big. When a team starts shifting its stance, its going to be much harder to score against. Styles can change. A team can now start adopting different styles. I have seen Liverpool shift from a gegen style to a possession styled game against me. This is a much harder thing for most people to handle, because people usually don't think about changing their tactical styles.

3. On holiday tests I have always run underdogs and the results ARE ALWAYS THE SAME. We overachieve and suddenly struggle in the 2nd half, a closer look at why confirms point 2.

So what do i do? I will adapt as well. While the start of the season I may be more attacking towards the second half of the season i slow things down. One of my tactics in FM19 was Galileo its a brutal attacking system when played on Attacking, but in 2nd halves of the season it usually drops down to balanced mentality and i watch my defensive lines closely. If i let the Asst manager run with it,  its usually a colourful red on my schedule.

Streaks are not uncommon in the game, some players blow hot and cold. When someone blows cold i tend to criticise, rotate them and when they are hot I am more careful with what i say. If its a one-off I keep quiet, if its a sequence of matches I praise. In most cases I will rotate a poor performing player out of the squad, and sometimes I will be more careful when i travel away.

As far as finishing problems are concerned I suffer from that too, but what i do is focus more on that in training or analyse my tactics to see if I m producing quality chances. Good thing about FM20 is that it now makes this a lot easier.

[H_a_a_k_o_n]

On 10/11/2019 at 05:39, Rashidi said:

3. On holiday tests I have always run underdogs and the results ARE ALWAYS THE SAME. We overachieve and suddenly struggle in the 2nd half, a closer look at why confirms point 2.

So what do i do? I will adapt as well. While the start of the season I may be more attacking towards the second half of the season i slow things down. One of my tactics in FM19 was Galileo its a brutal attacking system when played on Attacking, but in 2nd halves of the season it usually drops down to balanced mentality and i watch my defensive lines closely. If i let the Asst manager run with it,  its usually a colourful red on my schedule.

Thanks Herne79 and Rashidi for useful insights. I really struggle with exactly the same as OP, and i have tried once again with FM19 to overcome this, but with fail. 10 seasons with Blyth in the National. I overachive a lot in compare to the odds (bad economy, difficult to get players).  positons; from 15 to 7 over the years, with usually 10.place as an avarage. Always the expectations are battle against relegation.

But, i always do great 1. half. I get close to the top, 1-3 place. Then the bad-ring-of-lots-of-matches occour. It would not be so frustrating if it was  L-L-W-L-L-U-L...but its _always_ 5-6 consecutive losses. And every season. And always out of the blue.

I loose a little hope when you state number 3. To try to identify my problem i have a very defensive tactic with lots of possession. But i still don't manage to see what i do wrong.

i will next season try more rotating of team even though i have tried that with fail earlier, and praise the good players. But sometimes its so frustrating. This season i had 12 consective losses and draws, and suddenly...with no other factors i suddenly beats a team 5-1 and we are out of the bad-circle. That match we play like a dream, like the 1. half of the season.

I know its my tactic :-) but sometimes it feels like its hard-coded...

Maybe the 11the season will be the one i find out :-)

Successful managers, keep coming with tips!

 

[sporadicsmiles]

8 hours ago, H_a_a_k_o_n said:

And every season. And always out of the blue.

Can't be that out of the blue if it happens every season .

The problem with over achieving with average sides is that when teams are defensive against you, you will also often lack the players to unlock their defence. It takes a different approach to unpick a defence than to utilize space given by a positive side. When I play as a bigger side, I love teams that actually come and have a go. I know I will be able to score goals against them far easier than a team that parks 10 men in and around the box and tries to eek our a draw. 

It can be as simple as knowing your tactic, what it does, and how, when and why is struggles. If you know this, you can know what to expect against specific teams. For example, my default way of playing my striker sucks against a team with two DMCs. I cannot create space the same way, so we will end up either going wide or shooting long. I have to mix things up in that situation. For me this is the one critical point of starting to lose. It is harder to create space than to just use it. Especially when your players are not great. 

When it comes to average sides doing well, and as has been pointed out, the players are going to be more sensitive. They are doing spectacularly to be so high in the league, so you have to be a bit kinder to them. Do not add pressure onto them, but take it away. You do not need to "expect a victory", but say things to give them confidence ("I have faith in you, you can make the difference today"). Do not be too harsh if they lose but play well against a team that they should have lost to. If they get a win to break out of a poor spell, be extra nice to them. Individually praise people. These things will not work all the time, but they will help to mitigate bad runs.

[H_a_a_k_o_n]

Thanks sporadicsmiles, good points there too.

About pressure, and team talks. Do they have any effect when they are not colored green or red? When i am giving a teamtalk and no color appear...it did not give any effect. At least that is what i always have believed. Am i wrong?

(because on my level the one that gives most green most of the time is motivating speak 1. half, and "you are doing good, keep up the good work" in the 2. half. Most of the others gives only white, or small amount of green)

[Svenc]

On 09/11/2019 at 14:46, domperignon said:

This happens too in real life but FM allows exaggerated and unrealistic streaks of wins and defeats which makes users thing they are doing something wrong. There is nothing wrong, it's simply how football is represented in FM, which we'll all agree has room for improvement but still is at least decent.

Really? Actual Football is tons more random every Season somewhere. On FM there's a solution to almost  everything, and in General Progression is far more predictable, sadly. Else you wouldn'T have Dortmund sitting 18th place iN February 2015..... and speaking to the OP:

Just sell that bloody sucker already.
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/why-cristiano-ronaldo-has-been-real-madrids-major-problem-season-he-can-also-be-their

And whatever you do, don't go Arsenal. Even Wenger himself argued it was all "cyclical".  
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/15118/10189870/wasteful-arsenals-premier-league-title-hopes-hit-by-poor-finishing

Edited November 11, 2019 by Svenc

[Guerin]

Thanks for all the replies. Some great food for thought here. 

2 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

when teams are defensive against you, you will also often lack the players to unlock their defence.

I think this may be an issue. A lot of my roles are quite standard but I don't have anyone in the team who can play those more unpredictable ones (treq, false 9, roaming playmaker, ramdeuter, CWB etc.

On 10/11/2019 at 04:39, Rashidi said:

While the start of the season I may be more attacking towards the second half of the season i slow things down. One of my tactics in FM19 was Galileo its a brutal attacking system when played on Attacking, but in 2nd halves of the season it usually drops down to balanced mentality and i watch my defensive lines closely. If i let the Asst manager run with it,  its usually a colourful red on my schedule

I'm interested to know whether you would change the roles and duties in your setup to accomodate the more balanced style of play? 

 

On 09/11/2019 at 13:31, ceefax the cat said:

If he's still creating clear chances and hitting the bar a lot then it's down to luck, surely? If the AI had learned to stymie his tactics he wouldn't be getting chances anymore, and would be conceding them instead. I can see how pressure on strikers might be a thing, but if you're putting chances on a plate for them your tactics are still working

OK, so I guess maybe some of those opportunities were coming from the set-pieces. As the season progressed I had trouble against bottom half teams mainly, so I think it is teams sitting deeper that's the problem. Can't help but feel as though my chance conversion seems to drop when dominating the game and rise when teams attack me, might have to start wearing a tin foil hat.

 

On 08/11/2019 at 14:56, herne79 said:

They're now doing to you what you did to them, thus you should probably adapt accordingly (although bear in mind point 1 above).

yep. 

Anyways, thanks for all the tips and replies. Got a lot to think about going forward now.

[FMunderachiever]

What i sometimes find, and this does take knowing what youre doing and what works with your players, but pulling out a completely fundamentally different tactic out the blue, even when things are going WELL, has the effect of varying the style of play and mentality of the opponent.

Like, in a game v a stronger team, attack them like mad. press everywhere. get stuck in.

Against a team you should beat but fear an upset, bore them to death. stand off them etc

 

Its surprising how effective (for me) this can be

[lferreira]

2 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

What i sometimes find, and this does take knowing what youre doing and what works with your players, but pulling out a completely fundamentally different tactic out the blue, even when things are going WELL, has the effect of varying the style of play and mentality of the opponent.

Like, in a game v a stronger team, attack them like mad. press everywhere. get stuck in.

Against a team you should beat but fear an upset, bore them to death. stand off them etc

 

Its surprising how effective (for me) this can be

That's interesting, but the first one never worked for me. They obliterate me on the counter or beat my high press too easily.

However, some formations, in theory, have antidotes. The 4-1-4-1 DM is supposed to have an advantage or neutralize the 4-2-3-1 (the flat version works better in my opinion). The 4-2-3-1 is expected to counter the 4-4-2. 

You can see where this is going. I check the scout report and see their vulnerable formations. If a team has problems facing determined formations I will take a look at their past matches and see what happened. This is only in exceptional cases though.

I'm more than happy fielding a 4-4-2 week in, week out.

[mc22]

Throw an aggressive press conference, resign, join rival and take it out on old team.

[YouReds]

If your fixture schedule allows it I would arrange a friendly against a crappy local team and play a full strength side, smash them 10-0 and the results in the league should improve dramatically! 

[FMunderachiever]

Also, pay attention to your squad. Know their characters.

 

Who can you rely on to give you a good performance? who only turns it on now and again?

Look at attributes like determination and work rate. How composed are they? do they make the right decisions?

Look at the report cards. Do they perform consistently? do they like big matches?

Can you play a part? can you take pressure off the players by what you say to them? can you motivate them to snap people out of a funk?

[H_a_a_k_o_n]

Well. I think I should do a follow up on the advice on this thread. For me the streak of poor form has always been there (at least last the last 5-6 years of FM)...

So i tried the next season to follow the advice:

- Squad rotating. Always trying to rotate at least two players every match. (and try to vary whom)

- Teamtalks. Don't go for the green all the time, but vary the answers. A lot of times i don't get any green or red colour, but i think it helps the moral anyhow. 

And the results surely got better! The always "bad form and nothing i could do" did not show up! Thanks! It was more like real life, i lose one but manage to win the next. Not lose, and the next 5 i lose.

(played three more seasons with same advice and it surely works).

[Snorks]

First thing i do if i hot a dry spell//poor run is strip out ALL team instructions and PIs.

Go completely Vanilla and look at my roles/duties and player traits. See how they are working together with each other.