Youth Intake ineffective

[jaysdailydose]

Wow, the second "star rating" post of the day.

I wonder how many star talents OP has reloaded to this point...

Since I was looking over my beloved Liverpool save today, here's some fun...

Those 3 star trash players?  Does that include Andrew Robertson? One of the best fullbacks in the EPL.  3*.  "Good Premier League Player."

Those pesky, worthless 3.5 star prospects?  Never think they'd morph into someone like Sadio Mane, right?  Well. Thats Sadio.

3.5* player - "Leading Premier League Player."

You didnt complain too much about 4*...but how could you complain about the King of the Kop, Mo Salah?  Only if he came in as a .5/4* youth, right?

4* - "Star Player for the Premier League.". 

It only goes to "World Class" after this.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you've seen 5* prospects (for your level) in your trip up the leagues.  

Not enough people realize how the stars work, thats becoming obvious more and more daily.

[jaysdailydose]

I apologize, as I see this thread is now a few months old necro, after reading the dates, but it brought back thoughts of my other favorite club, Ajax, and the amazing post Cleon made here a few years ago, if anyone wants to refer to it.  Cleon's masterpiece: 

I had known this before that thread, but it is the GOAL of Ajax to have THREE players every TWO SEASONS that are good enough to go from their Academy into their first-team setup.  So they are trying to get 1.5 first teamers per season from their intake, after they have been developed in their system.  NOT EVEN TWO PLAYERS PER SEASON ARE EXPECTED TO MAKE IT -- at one of the world's strongest academies, in a relatively weak European league.

One other subtle reminder... some of those "scrubs" in your intakes, if you bring them into your setup, will get a massive CA/PA boost while they are developing.  Was your scout wrong?  Did growth spike this player's abilities?  It happens, and it leads to your ability to tell the story of your own world.  That's a good thing.

I understand OP... he's spent a lot of time building his side up the leagues, and with all the money he's dumped into youth development, he's expecting results -- and he's expecting them yesterday.  Fair enough.

BUT, when you reach a top-flight league... the method of analyzing those players changes.  You are rarely going to see a 4.5/5* prospect in an intake, when coming up the leagues, they were probably fairly frequent.  (When you're in League Two, and a 5* is a good League One player, it's not that big a stretch.)  

Obviously, this thread went all sorts of sideways with "the HoYD does one day of work" and other trinkets... but one thing you must be able to do in games like these (ALL games with a realistic sim aspect, not just FM) is suspend your belief, or even "role-play" the scenario.  Yes, it LOOKS like your HoYD "works one day a year" -- but because I know what the system is supposed to be replicating, I know he technically doesn't.  

The way the system is supposed to be viewed is that your youth intakes have been in your system through all your lower youth teams, and have just graduated to potentially being ready for your U18 side.  He's been watching your U10, U12, U14 and U16 since he's been with us, and these are the potential graduates to the U18 he has given you.  Not to mention that he also works as a youth coach in your system, it's quite obvious he's working to the terms of his contract, if you can "suspend your belief" and give a little benefit of the doubt to a pretty awe-inspiring real-world simulation.

Is this system perfect?  Probably not, but I struggle to think of one a whole lot better, especially since MOST players would put U10 scouting to "automatically done by CPU" if we had the option.  Sure, some people would use it, but I think 95% of FM users are likely happy, or at least satisfied, with FM's youth intake system, and the impact it has on the ENTIRE game world.

Just for an idea how painful youth intakes truly are on top clubs, Barcelona only have FIVE remaining players in their senior squad who graduated La Masia, with the departure of Iniesta.  They don't even have that many graduates in their B team, due to them worrying about relegation from the second-tier.  They are actually considering forming a C side in the Segunda to try to get their academy more help.

La Masia and Ajax are hardly producing first-team talent anymore, but all of our FM clubs are supposed to be world-beaters?  No... and even less so if our fine managers can't realize that 3 and 4 star players can wind up as the core of top-flight FM sides.

Sorry for the "rant" but this is the second thread that is bringing up star ratings and youth development today, and I couldn't help myself.

[herne79]

ok one last go.

@roger redknapp By your own admission you are binning youth intakes with 3 or even 4 star potential newgens.  A newgen with 3 stars for potential is predicted to be about as good as other similar players already in your squad.  A 4 star newgen is predicted to be better.  A 5 star newgen would be significantly better than your existing squad members.

But what if your squad is already stuffed full of world class players?  That would mean a 3 star potential newgen is predicted to become world class ie., about as good as other similar players already in your squad.  In those circumstances it would therefore be impossible to get a 5 star potential newgen because it's impossible to get a newgen who could be significantly better than existing world class players.

You are binning newgens who are predicted to be at least as good as your existing squad - and if you already have a world class squad you are therefore binning potentially world class newgens.

[CFuller]

In my FM13 save with Dagenham, I had a midfielder come through my youth team just before we won the Championship play-offs. He was rated at grey-star ability, 3* potential ("Could become a good/decent PL player"), so he was unlikely to become a legendary player.

Six years later, aged 22, he was an established squad member in a Dagenham team that was playing in the Champions League. Originally a defensive midfielder, he found his calling as a ball-winner, serving mainly as the understudy to an older player who was considered world-class.

As far as I can remember, his star ratings never rose above 3* CA or 3.5* PA, and he was at best rated as a decent PL midfielder by my assistant manager. Again, he wasn't ever going to be world-class, but he consistently put in some good performances, and that was enough for me.

Since then, I've had a couple of 'rubbish' intakes where the best prospects had 2.5* potential, even after significantly improving my youth set-up. I just accept it and give them time to develop, because they can still become serviceable squad players if managed well.

Roger, would you have given a chance to a very raw 3* potential player in your youth intake? Or would you have passed him over and reloaded the save because you're waiting for an intake full of world-beaters?

[jaysdailydose]

On 07/05/2018 at 13:31, roger redknapp said:

And anyone making excuses about HOYD favourite formation or personality is clutching at straws.

Actually, their personality and favored formation are 95% of their value, and that is backed up by posters with SI titles.  Their JCA/JPA are extremely minor, because these players are already supposed to be at your club in your lower youth teams.  

I can't believe I've spent this much time on this older thread, but I had to go back and correct some of your bigger mistakes.  Personality and favored formation are 1A and 1B as to their importance, with pretty much everything else coming a far distant second and worse.

You really need to do some Googling and forums reading, because now it is quite easy to see why you are not happy with this system... you don't really understand it.  I see from your other posts that you don't run a 4-4-2, but you are surprised that you're getting 4-4-2 players with a HoYD who prefers 4-4-2.  Honestly, if you are in a formation that doesn't play wingers at all, its an absolutely horrific hire for you to employ that man as your HoYD.  His attributes essentially DO NOT MATTER.  What matters is his personality and his preferred formation.

So, they aren't excuses, they are actual knowledge of the sim engine.

[jaysdailydose]

From @Seb Wassell of the SI Testing Team (and the Leeds United researcher):

Quote

From my above post: A Head of Youth Development will mainly influence the personalities of your newgens. In some cases he will affect the newgen template selected, i.e. positions and attribute spreads.

To elaborate his preferences will on occasion influence the "type" of player coming through. For example there are many different styles of MC, if your HoYD favours a "Technical" Coaching Style you are more likely to produce those proficient in the technical side of the game. There are many factors at play when "styling" a newgen (regardless of CA/PA); we have numerous templates from which newgens are created for every position. These templates are based on several factors, such as the aforementioned HoYD preferences, but more significantly factors like nationality (a Brazilian full-back is much more likely to be of an attacking style than an Italian one for example) and so on. Obviously this is all mixed in with a heavy dose of (weighted) random to ensure variety.

Full thread where Seb's quote is found: https://community.sigames.com/topic/400465-crucial-attributes-for-head-of-youth-development/

EDIT: Wanted to include another gem of a quote by Seb, since this seems to be more about freak newgens than anything, so here it is:

Quote

Another piece of information on this one for you. Your youth staff will also slightly influence the PA of your 'best' or extreme newgens. All of your youth staff act in this way, but the HoYD's impact is twice that of other youth coaches. This will not affect every newgen nor the average newgen but rather only the "star" or "freak" newgens that may occasionally come through the system. It is also important to note that this is only one part of a larger equation when it comes to star/freak newgen PA.

 

[santy001]

The star system is horribly misunderstood. It's subject to a lot of malleability in the game but once you're at the top end of the game 2 stars is actually good enough for your team.

It doesn't feel particularly good seeing 2 star rated players, and not every 2 star rated player is there but generally speaking 2.5 stars is more or less the same as what you've got/expected to have. The general margin for error means that even as little as 1.5 stars can be good enough for your team if you're top, top team. Should you fill your team with them? Absolutely not. 

The star rating is a loose guide, and it very much depends on your position in football for how much use it has. At the lower end and the upper end it massively loses any real degree of indication because you're operating at the extremes where either everyone is better or no one is better than what you already have.

- - - - -

Also, the "CA" cost of retraining a player. Unless I'm mistaken, this isn't a thing. I'm basing this off the research perspective of assigning players positions but giving players more positions in which they can play and the degree of their proficiency in that position does not cost CA. It wouldn't make sense that I could give a 17 year old lad the CM and RM position as a researcher with no impact, but if he just starts off as a CM and someone then retrains him to RM it comes with a massive 20 CA cost.

However...

The game has a relatively sophisticated system now that underpins attribute weightings (as much as people try to figure them out from time to time, they get nowhere near close) this may mean there is some small change in the way in which a players attributes are weighted with a players positions changing. This could be interpreted as a CA cost.

However...

Such a cost is rather negligible, especially when you consider the reality of attributes in the background it might mean that a certain attribute changes from 16 to 15.8 behind the scenes, and you still see 16 on the players profile but a little red arrow to indicate a small drop.

- - - - -

So in short, if you're regularly winning a top European league and competing in the CL a 1.5 star potential player can absolutely be good enough for your squad, and a 2 star player can fit into your starting XI if they develop into what you need - give them a chance.

If you have some youngster who is a DM but looks like he would be a cracking fullback (one of my favourite retrainings) then go ahead and retrain him.

[theonets]

I would also like to point out something that people are ignoring.

 

The star system is also very often wrong. That 1 star dud PA player? He could turn into a 3-4 star CA player, or be the best in your intake every once in a while. Unless your coaches are PA 20, CA 20, they're not going to get everyone right, they're just going to get most stuff right.

 

I didn't believe this actually, but a very recent save I mentioned in another thread made me reconsider. The youth Prospect had excellent stats, and was rated 4 stars. My best player was 4.5 stars.

 

This is in Asia, so the standard of players was like 30-40 CA. I loaded up Genie Scout and my best player was around 75 CA.

 

This guy? 149 CA, 170+ PA. Rated 4 stars when he was already by far my best player.

 

 

[HUNT3R]

24 minutes ago, theonets said:

I would also like to point out something that people are ignoring.

 

The star system is also very often wrong. That 1 star dud PA player? He could turn into a 3-4 star CA player, or be the best in your intake every once in a while. Unless your coaches are PA 20, CA 20, they're not going to get everyone right, they're just going to get most stuff right.

 

I didn't believe this actually, but a very recent save I mentioned in another thread made me reconsider. The youth Prospect had excellent stats, and was rated 4 stars. My best player was 4.5 stars.

 

This is in Asia, so the standard of players was like 30-40 CA. I loaded up Genie Scout and my best player was around 75 CA.

 

This guy? 149 CA, 170+ PA. Rated 4 stars when he was already by far my best player.

 

 

I've had plenty of 4 stars players with almost exactly the same potential as the lowest, 1.5 star players in my intake. So yes, it can be very wrong.

[roger redknapp]

5 hours ago, Vernum said:

Sounds like he just wants more control or a more extensive scouting and recruitment system for the younger player instead of random spawn with weighting depending on reputation and location etc..

Thank you. Exactly. 

[roger redknapp]

5 hours ago, CFuller said:

We are just going around in circles now. It's been explained in detail by several users why youth intakes work as they do and why they should work as they do.

At the very least, you should either re-read this whole thread (herne's comments especially) or lower your expectations.

Fuller I am a FM fanatic, as is anyone else who bemoans the Youth part of the game. 

Im as much a FM purist as anyone who is defending this part of the game. 

Its ok to criticise something you love. This part of the game is underdeveloped and overlooked. 

The combination of preferred formation, HOYD personality, HOYD attributes and the clubs facility and circumstances is not working. The entire process of landing hundreds of thousands of youngsters into the game overnight is not reality, it doesn’t remotely relate to reality in the slightest. 

If there’s one area of the game that could be overhauled, especially for avid players that will play a career beyond when the real life players retire, this is surely it. 

[jaysdailydose]

3 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

Fuller I am a FM fanatic, as is anyone else who bemoans the Youth part of the game. 

Im as much a FM purist as anyone who is defending this part of the game. 

Its ok to criticise something you love. This part of the game is underdeveloped and overlooked. 

The combination of preferred formation, HOYD personality, HOYD attributes and the clubs facility and circumstances is not working. The entire process of landing hundreds of thousands of youngsters into the game overnight is not reality, it doesn’t remotely relate to reality in the slightest. 

If there’s one area of the game that could be overhauled, especially for avid players that will play a career beyond when the real life players retire, this is surely it. 

It is absolutely working.  Do you expect your entire youth system to be of players with potential to be greater than Mo Salah?  

You've fully admitted you've been reloading intakes that have players ranging between 1 and 4 stars in potential.  4 star potential means "Star player for the top flight" a smidge below world-class.  How are you getting freaking Salah-level potentials at York City and thinking it isn't working?  Unless you've been in the Premier League Top 4 for ten years already to this point, you are probably one of the lowest reputation clubs in the Prem and STILL pulling in "Star Player for the Prem" potentials and then saying it isn't working?

Your issues as I see it appear to be as follows:

A.  You apparently don't realize that 3 and 4 star potential players would be your Good Premier League and Star Premier Leaguers of the future, and apparently think anyone below 5* potential is a failure.

B. You expect a video game to be a perfect simulation of reality, even though that perfect simulation of reality would bore a majority of the playerbase to death (and that includes those of us that are total youth development snobs, like myself.)  

Most of my careers over my lifetime of playing this game (every version since CM 93/94) go 30-40 years... and sure, they could probably improve it, but I think the current system does a fairly good job of both giving a fair simulation of bringing youth into my club, and also replenishing the entire game world.

This idea that the system is not working is, quite frankly, ridiculous.  I'd really love to see some screen-shotted images of your intakes.  I think you are expecting the moon and stars, and likely giving up what most of us would consider amazing intakes, simply because you aren't happy with your (probably fairly highly rated) intakes.

Be a sport, do five more reloads, and take a screenshot of every intake's star ratings.  I guarantee almost everyone here would be thrilled with your results, except you, apparently!

[roger redknapp]

6 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Go look at all the people taking clubs from minor leagues to the Champions League whilst not signing anyone outside of their youth intake. Youth intakes in FM produce far more players with first team potential than the real life cohorts of youngsters (let's face it, in the past couple of decades Swansea's produced Ben Davies, Joe Allen and a lot of players that wouldn't make the Swansea team even now they're in the second tier. Guess that's what happens when you don't get to save/reload because you haven't got wonderkids with good personalities)

It's not the game that's broken, it's your expectations...

Rubbish.

Let’s not make out Personality matters, let’s not define youth recruitment extensivity, let’s not rate the youth facilities, let’s not take into account the state of the art facilities, let’s no rate the HOYD stats, let’s not appreciate the players effort to force his club into making £100k annual contracts with clubs abroad for intake links. 

Sure because Swansea only ever produced Ben Davies, why should the game emulate what happens when you introduce these youth focused environments.

Why don’t we just continue the non realistic approach, to paying a completely unresponsive staff member, that you can’t even speak to, about his job performance or what you as club manager are looking for...

to completely bluff his job, his £5k a week wages, and go and round up 15-16 complete strangers from the back of classrooms and bus stops and try to make out he warranted the £250-500k spent on him from since the previous February. 

Yeah that’s totally realistic, HOYD in real life definitely go out and find young talent from local club football on a weekly to monthly basis at all. 

This current algorithm is a perfect representation of how youth recruitment works, how wrong of me to question it. 

[jaysdailydose]

Wait a second, we're supposed to go to you for the idea for a perfect representation, the guy that is wondering why he doesn't have 15-year-olds ready for the Prem on a constant basis in intakes?  I mean, it was only your first post in this thread, asking "Shouldn't I have 3* current ability players at some point in these intakes?"

Do you see why people are up in arms?  This thread started with you expecting that, and now anything you dislike is unrealistic?  

The only thing that was unrealistic in this thread was your expectations.

[jaysdailydose]

Seriously, do that test I just asked you to do... let us see your "rubbish" intakes.

What is truly awful in this thread is you probably had some amazing intakes in your time in the Prem, and you reloaded them because they no longer look like your League One and Championship intakes... because of how the star system works...  

The game probably gave you some flat-out awesome intakes, and you threw them right in the bin, and then are saying your youth-focused environments don't work... because you fail to realize a 4* player in a Big 5 League is freaking Mo Salah.

[roger redknapp]

4 hours ago, CFuller said:

Roger, would you have given a chance to a very raw 3* potential player in your youth intake? Or would you have passed him over and reloaded the save because you're waiting for an intake full of world-beaters?

This is what frustrates me. 

As per comments above I’ve made, if you put all the correct jigsaw puzzles in place, you should be looking at Cattermoles, Pennants, Velas, O’Sheas, Browns, Butts, Bentalebs, Masons, Winks. 

I’m not looking for superstar intakes.  

I have a 12.5k seater stadium, I don’t restart matches or use the editor. I’ve scrapped and fought my way up from Vanarama North. We punch well above our weight with a 1.8m wage budget which even I think is bloated for a 12.5k stadium team. 

I just want the option of having a factory on my game. I dont want superstars. But I want my game to acknowledge my behaviour on the game is showing an interest in youth and not having to spend money. Even if I have to click a button that shifts some youth development in my favour in the same way you can unlock attribute masking. 

The current setup is algorithmic and doesn’t remotely represent reality, so it may as well be unrealistic in my favour.  

[jaysdailydose]

1 minute ago, roger redknapp said:

This is what frustrates me. 

As per comments above I’ve made, if you put all the correct jigsaw puzzles in place, you should be looking at Cattermoles, Pennants, Velas, O’Sheas, Browns, Butts, Bentalebs, Masons, Winks. 

I’m not looking for superstar intakes.  

I have a 12.5k seater stadium, I don’t restart matches or use the editor. I’ve scrapped and fought my way up from Vanarama North. We punch well above our weight with a 1.8m wage budget which even I think is bloated for a 12.5k stadium team. 

I just want the option of having a factory on my game. I dont want superstars. But I want my game to acknowledge my behaviour on the game is showing an interest in youth and not having to spend money. Even if I have to click a button that shifts some youth development in my favour in the same way you can unlock attribute masking. 

The current setup is algorithmic and doesn’t remotely represent reality, so it may as well be unrealistic in my favour.  

The game is acknowledging your behavior.  You're getting 4* potentials in a top-flight intake, which means you are getting Mo Salah-level regens, but apparently that's not good enough for you...even though you don't want "superstar intakes."  

[roger redknapp]

4 hours ago, jaysdailydose said:

Actually, their personality and favored formation are 95% of their value, and that is backed up by posters with SI titles.  Their JCA/JPA are extremely minor, because these players are already supposed to be at your club in your lower youth teams.  

I can't believe I've spent this much time on this older thread, but I had to go back and correct some of your bigger mistakes.  Personality and favored formation are 1A and 1B as to their importance, with pretty much everything else coming a far distant second and worse.

You really need to do some Googling and forums reading, because now it is quite easy to see why you are not happy with this system... you don't really understand it.  I see from your other posts that you don't run a 4-4-2, but you are surprised that you're getting 4-4-2 players with a HoYD who prefers 4-4-2.  Honestly, if you are in a formation that doesn't play wingers at all, its an absolutely horrific hire for you to employ that man as your HoYD.  His attributes essentially DO NOT MATTER.  What matters is his personality and his preferred formation.

So, they aren't excuses, they are actual knowledge of the sim engine.

I know or have heard that HOYD personality effects intake. But apparently according to Developer comments on this site, the HOYD only personally has input on max 5 players. 

I’ve seen other conflicting reports that from developers mouth formation means **** all, and then conflicting reports that it does. 

Occhams Razor? That the entire system is convoluted and needs revising.

Its very easy to just dismiss a fellow veteran players views as moany or ill informed, but I’ve played the game more than enough to seriously vouch that this area of the game needs some work.

link to back up what I was saying (that even programmers of the game down know what constitutes a good intake) : 

 

[Snorks]

Let's not forget this is York City.

Even at AC MIlan., one of the top academies in the world run by one of the top HoYDs in the game, I would expect one or two 4* PA intake players - if I am lucky. The bulk are 2.5-3* - perfectly good enough to develop into first-team or squad players, or at worst, generate income with future values.

It will take years and years of in-game time to build York City's youth programme reputation to a point where you will be getting one or two 4* if you are lucky.

 

 

[jaysdailydose]

3 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

I know or have heard that HOYD personality effects intake. But apparently according to Developer comments on this site, the HOYD only personally has input on max 5 players. 

I’ve seen other conflicting reports that from developers mouth formation means **** all, and then conflicting reports that it does. 

Occhams Razor? That the entire system is convoluted and needs revising.

Its very easy to just dismiss a fellow veteran players views as moany or ill informed, but I’ve played the game more than enough to seriously vouch that this area of the game needs some work.

link to back up what I was saying (that even programmers of the game down know what constitutes a good intake) : 

 

OK, wait a second, you've "played this game more than enough to seriously vouch that this area of the game needs some work" -- yet you are throwing your toys out of the pram over 4* intakes (again, a 4* potential in the Prem means he turns out to be Mo Salah with correct development.)  You are saying that it isn't realizing your major investment in youth when you are getting these type of intakes (again, with Star Player in Prem potentials in your intakes.)  You are saying you don't want superstar intakes, but are binning intakes with star players?  It is kind of a lot of contradictions, no?   

Now that I know you've read my post, humor me.  Do 5 more reloads, and take a screenshot of each intake and their star ratings.  Give us an image to what you're seeing, so we can discuss it?  

[Snorks]

7 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

 

link to back up what I was saying (that even programmers of the game down know what constitutes a good intake) : 

 

But IRL the academies don;t know what constitutes a 'good intake' until the players have developed a bit.

Hell, on 'intake day' even the Class of 92 - Giggs was at City I believe, Beckham was at Spurs, Scholes was 'too small and too asthmatic to ever make it' leaves what? The Nevilles, Nicky Butt, Robbie Savage? Good intake? Or, I suspect, you would reload that one because, you are York City.

[jaysdailydose]

To back up what I'm saying in the Prem... this is from a fresh Liverpool save.  Player Ability checked (as you can see in the image) by Krawietz of Liverpool.

3* player (Good Player for the Premier League):

3.5* Player (Leading Player for the Premier League): 



I didn't take the screenshot for Salah, but he's 4*, "Star Player for the Premier League."  

[jaysdailydose]

Also, one last thing, it is awfully hard to say we're dismissing your views when we're actively taking the time to try to help you to understand how this works more...

Think about it, should I be having a 15-year-old coming in regularly that is immediately ready to take the job of one of the best fullbacks in the Prem?

If my system is producing players with the potential to be Mo Salah, is the game not recognizing my massive investment in youth?  

No one is dismissing your views, we're trying to help you understand why we feel they are the wrong view to have.  I shouldn't regularly have 15-year-old kids that are ready to unseat Robertson or challenge Mane for a first-team role on intake day, but that was literally the thrust of your first post -- "Shouldn't I be seeing some 3* current ability players with my massive investment."  Actually, on that, some people may have dismissed your view, because it is downright silly.  But, to think that we are dismissing your views about other improvements (scouting younger teams, having youth players unveiled to you throughout the year, etc) is certainly untrue and unfair.  

The only reason I'm even still posting is so that hopefully you start realizing you are probably having some downright amazing youth intakes, and to try to get you to start enjoying your save (and your massive youth investment.)  You should be appreciating the work of your youth system, instead you apparently want all of them not only canned, but tarred and feathered.

[roger redknapp]

19 minutes ago, jaysdailydose said:

It is absolutely working.  Do you expect your entire youth system to be of players with potential to be greater than Mo Salah?  

How are you getting freaking Salah-level potentials at York City and thinking it isn't working?  Unless you've been in the Premier League Top 4 for ten years already to this point, you are probably one of the lowest reputation clubs in the Prem and STILL pulling in "Star Player for the Prem" potentials and then saying it isn't working?

Your issues as I see it appear to be as follows:

A.  You apparently don't realize that 3 and 4 star potential players would be your Good Premier League and Star Premier Leaguers of the future, and apparently think anyone below 5* potential is a failure.

B. You expect a video game to be a perfect simulation of reality, even though that perfect simulation of reality would bore a majority of the playerbase to death (and that includes those of us that are total youth development snobs, like myself.)  
 

Assumptions, just endless assumptions.

I don’t expect Salah. I don’t want superstars, It would get boring. 

of course I look at Liverpool regen Michael Stubbs with his Pogba like attributes octagonal and I get envy. 

My point is that players with decent stats are spawning at clubs around me and I am having to buy them, and after investing in youth facilities that is equally boring.  

You are assuming and writing as though I want unrealistic results, that I haven’t done research into how the database formulates it’s regen churn and I have. 

Ive done the research and my findings are that the algorithm is unsatisfactory. 

Its overnight bus stop gathering churn approach doesn’t represent real life. Players play and are scouted and recommended to HOYDs weekly, not willing to debate that fact, I have family friends in lower league football. 

Also it’s approach to personality’s is flawed, as though a man employed in a job with a balanced personality somehow by the stars aligning somehow leads 10 unambitious footballers to premier league team trials.  Do me a favour and don’t defend this nonsense. 

And on top of that, I’m supposed to sit here and pretend that I can’t talk and communicate with a member of staff I spend £500k a year on feeding his family. And say, “I don’t give a flying unicorn what your preferred formation is,  this club plays XXXX’  

- It isn’t a remote representation of reality. You can be as snobby as you like about it.  

[roger redknapp]

27 minutes ago, jaysdailydose said:

Seriously, do that test I just asked you to do... let us see your "rubbish" intakes.

What is truly awful in this thread is you probably had some amazing intakes in your time in the Prem, and you reloaded them because they no longer look like your League One and Championship intakes... because of how the star system works...  

The game probably gave you some flat-out awesome intakes, and you threw them right in the bin, and then are saying your youth-focused environments don't work... because you fail to realize a 4* player in a Big 5 League is freaking Mo Salah.

Incorrect.  

I get maybe a 3* potential every 20-30 loads and occasionally a **** looking 4*. 

The rest is a litter of rubbish players with stats better suited to day jobs.

They just don’t compare with players elsewhere. 

[roger redknapp]

36 minutes ago, jaysdailydose said:

Wait a second, we're supposed to go to you for the idea for a perfect representation, the guy that is wondering why he doesn't have 15-year-olds ready for the Prem on a constant basis in intakes?  

Quote where I asked why I don’t have premier league ready players. 

That’s absolutely rubbish. 

If you take down the “hes expecting Messi in every intake” defense, you would see I’m not taking the mick all over our beloved game. 

I’m being pretty fair about something that needs an overhaul.

your defensive position about it (being self claimed snob) is blinding you into making assumptions and painting me out to being unrealistic.

Ive only ever mentioned people like Jermaine Pennant. And you keep mentioning Wonderkids and Salah? 

[jaysdailydose]

14 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

Assumptions, just endless assumptions.

I don’t expect Salah. I don’t want superstars, It would get boring. 

of course I look at Liverpool regen Michael Stubbs with his Pogba like attributes octagonal and I get envy. 

My point is that players with decent stats are spawning at clubs around me and I am having to buy them, and after investing in youth facilities that is equally boring.  

You are assuming and writing as though I want unrealistic results, that I haven’t done research into how the database formulates it’s regen churn and I have. 

Ive done the research and my findings are that the algorithm is unsatisfactory. 

Its overnight bus stop gathering churn approach doesn’t represent real life. Players play and are scouted and recommended to HOYDs weekly, not willing to debate that fact, I have family friends in lower league football. 

Also it’s approach to personality’s is flawed, as though a man employed in a job with a balanced personality somehow by the stars aligning somehow leads 10 unambitious footballers to premier league team trials.  Do me a favour and don’t defend this nonsense. 

And on top of that, I’m supposed to sit here and pretend that I can’t talk and communicate with a member of staff I spend £500k a year on feeding his family. And say, “I don’t give a flying unicorn what your preferred formation is,  this club plays XXXX’  

- It isn’t a remote representation of reality. You can be as snobby as you like about it.  

So, you don't want superstars, but these are your first words in this thread:
 

Quote

 

"York City, Premier league, in Europe, Extensive Youth Recruitment, Exceptional Junior Coaching, Excellent Youth Facilities, Huw Jennings Resolute HOYD, Under 18 Manager, Assistant, 2 coaches, 2 Lower League Youth Intake Affiliates

Currently Spawning 1/2 to 1 1/2⭐️ ability max 
And Spawning 1/2 to 4 ⭐️ potential 

Reloading on intake day to test it. Should I not be yielding any ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ current ability?   Like surely the boxes I’ve ticked I should have a desirable intake after 15-20 reloads?"

 

You've done your research but you don't consider "Star Player for the Premier League" desirable, and think you should have 15-year-old kids ready to take Andrew Robertson's job as one of the best full backs in the Prem?  

I'm not assuming anything, you've written it all in this thread.  4* intakes aren't desirable.  You don't want star players, but you're baffled that you don't have 15-year-old Robertson's and Mane spawning on a regular basis?  

Do me a favor and stop saying you've done research and then coming at us with this?  You've done research and don't know that 3*-4* players in a top-flight are Good to Star top-flight players (and thus desirable intakes?)

I don't have to make assumptions, you've made it abundantly clear that you think you're being treated unfairly by the system, and it is quite frankly, ridiculous.  AGAIN, you are getting Mo Salah-level regens at freaking York City and you are thinking your youth staff is trash?  

If I sound snobby, it might be its because you've contradicted yourself about 37 times -- or you just don't understand through the several explanations of the star ratings and the youth system by several posters.

 

[jaysdailydose]

8 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

Quite where I asked why I don’t have premier league ready players. 

That’s absolutely rubbish. 

If you take down the “hes expecting Messi in every intake” defense, you would see I’m not taking the mick all over our beloved game. 

I’m being pretty fair about something that needs an overhaul.

your defensive position about it (being self claimed snob) is blinding you into making assumptions and painting me out to being unrealistic.

Ive only ever mentioned people like Jermaine Pennant. And you keep mentioning Wonderkids and Salah? 

Yeah, I'm mentioning Salah when you say you get trash intakes but you clearly state you get 4* potentials.  That means they have the potential to be as good as Mo Salah, since you're in the Premier League.  Think I've been clear on that about seven times now.  

"Quite where I asked why I don't have premier league ready players" -- try YOUR VERY FIRST POST IN THE THREAD.

You're being fair?  You're getting 4* Premier League players in intakes at YORK CITY and crying about it saying the engine doesn't realize your investment in youth and everything needs an overhaul?  Please... 

I've never said Messi at all.  I'm using YOUR OWN WORDS "I get 4*'s in my intakes" and letting you know "Yeah, that means they have the potential to be Mo Salah, but apparently that's not good enough for you."

I don't have a defensive position at all, I have a realistic position.  I sure as hell don't believe you should be getting 3* current ability players at 15 years old in your intakes (Read: That's as good as Andrew Robertson in your league) and I sure as hell don't believe you should be crying that "you don't want superstars" but apparently think getting players with the potential to be Mo Salah aren't quality intakes.  

I'm done here, I've made my point about five times... 

[Snorks]

To be fair @roger redknapp you have bemoaned the fact that you don;t get 3* CA players in the intake. 3* players ARE TOP PREMIER LEAGUE PLAYERS, if you seriously expect players like that at 15/16 years old I really think you have expectations that are too high - these players are SO rare, the odds are astronomical across the whole database that

a) They appear at every year's intake

and if they do appear then

b) Should they appear that they would turn up at York City.

 

Noone has disagreed wit hyou that IRL, scouts and HoYDs are working year-round on reports and scouting and such, but in the game, to simplify game-play, and presumably to simplify the database mechanics, there is ONE day they appear to us, the player, followed a few months later ONE day when the database 'reboots' and loses the retiring players.

 

[Snorks]

4 minutes ago, jaysdailydose said:

Yeah, I'm mentioning Salah when you say you get trash intakes but you clearly state you get 4* potentials.  That means they have the potential to be as good as Mo Salah, since you're in the Premier League.  Think I've been clear on that about seven times now.  

Eight  I think.

"Quite where I asked why I don't have premier league ready players" -- try YOUR VERY FIRST POST IN THE THREAD.
You must be the same as me - scrolling backwards all the time because of contradictions.

You're being fair?  You're getting 4* Premier League players in intakes at YORK CITY and crying about it saying the engine doesn't realize your investment in youth and everything needs an overhaul?  Please... 
York City>? Really?

I've never said Messi at all.  I'm using YOUR OWN WORDS "I get 4*'s in my intakes" and letting you know "Yeah, that means they have the potential to be Mo Salah, but apparently that's not good enough for you."

Yeah, but this is York City isn't it?  Mo Salah would never make it there

I don't have a defensive position at all, I have a realistic position.  I sure as hell don't believe you should be getting 3* current ability players at 15 years old in your intakes (Read: That's as good as Andrew Robertson in your league) and I sure as hell don't believe you should be crying that "you don't want superstars" but apparently think getting players with the potential to be Mo Salah aren't quality intakes.  
But Mo Salah, why so obsessed with Mo Salah? Come on, he's no good.......

I'm done here, I've made my point about five times... 

Six now .

[jaysdailydose]

Just now, Snorks said:

To be fair @roger redknapp you have bemoaned the fact that you don;t get 3* CA players in the intake. 3* players ARE TOP PREMIER LEAGUE PLAYERS, if you seriously expect players like that at 15/16 years old I really think you have expectations that are too high - these players are SO rare, the odds are astronomical across the whole database that

a) They appear at every year's intake

and if they do then

b) Should they appear that they would turn up at York City.

 

Noone has disagreed wit hyou that IRL, scouts and HoYDs are working year-round on reports and scouting and such, but in the game, to simplify game-play, and presumably to simplify the database mechanics, there is ONE day they appear to us, the player, followed a few months later ONE day when the database 'reboots' and loses the retiring players.

 

Great post, Snorks.

I definitely don't disagree, obviously scouts and HoYD work year-round in real life.  Their duties are obviously simplified, and require a "suspension of belief" and some role-play as to how they actually do their job, when we obviously know the game functions behind it.  No one is disputing that.

As you said, the reason people are still posting in this older thread is mostly because of that first post... to see someone wonder why they aren't getting 3* current Premier League players straight out of the intake, and that getting 4*'s in their York City intakes in the Premier League is somehow unacceptable, is the type of thing that makes me want to post.  

I actually want people to enjoy their saves, for some strange reason.  I should be playing, but this damned thread caught my interest.  I *love* Youth Development saves, and have done countless tests and experiments over the years trying to learn more about it.  I know the star system can be confusing, especially if someone works all the way up the leagues and then all of the sudden start seeing low star ratings once they get to the Promised Land.

I'm definitely tired of this idea that if you disagree with a frankly ludicrous point, like the one made in the first post of this thread, that you must be a SI fanboy... that kind of stuff sets people's teeth on edge.

[roger redknapp]

10 minutes ago, Snorks said:

To be fair @roger redknapp you have bemoaned the fact that you don;t get 3* CA players in the intake. 3* players ARE TOP PREMIER LEAGUE PLAYERS, if you seriously expect players like that at 15/16 years old I really think you have expectations that are too high - these players are SO rare, the odds are astronomical across the whole database that

a) They appear at every year's intake

and if they do appear then

b) Should they appear that they would turn up at York City.

 

Noone has disagreed wit hyou that IRL, scouts and HoYDs are working year-round on reports and scouting and such, but in the game, to simplify game-play, and presumably to simplify the database mechanics, there is ONE day they appear to us, the player, followed a few months later ONE day when the database 'reboots' and loses the retiring players.

 

Sorry but I’m seeing decent players with decent green stats (Dark FLUT skin) showing up at other clubs. 

We are talking 11+ everywhere in the mental department, 15+ in the physical, 11+ in the technical department. 

It happens everywhere else, it doesn’t happen at my club. And the point I’m trying to make is that I have all the boxes you can possibly tick in my favour, even my manager rep and club rep and facilities have gone up since this game.

york City isn’t a vanarama north team any more, it’s big boys with a small stadium. 

If it’s a matter of odds and reloads, I’ve reloaded enough to tell you that that game is only interested in putting good English players anywhere but in my team.  

That other guy keeps going on about Salah Mane and Robertson...the players I get in my intakes are nowhere near. 

To the point I don’t really feel there was any value in investing in youth facilities in or even employing a HOYD.

And im a thorough player btw, down to 5* coaching, individual training, man management, renewing contracts, press conference...trust me my youth setup is at its maximum possible efficiency, I haven’t mistaken any steps I should have to make it a better environment.

I just don’t rate the way the game deals with it. 

[jaysdailydose]

1 minute ago, Snorks said:

Oh, my goodness... are you sure you aren't my long-lost brother from another mother?  That was downright hilarious, sir!

[jaysdailydose]

5 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

Sorry but I’m seeing decent players with decent green stats (Dark FLUT skin) showing up at other clubs. 

We are talking 11+ everywhere in the mental department, 15+ in the physical, 11+ in the technical department. 

It happens everywhere else, it doesn’t happen at my club. And the point I’m trying to make is that I have all the boxes you can possibly tick in my favour, even my manager rep and club rep and facilities have gone up since this game.

york City isn’t a vanarama north team any more, it’s big boys with a small stadium. 

If it’s a matter of odds and reloads, I’ve reloaded enough to tell you that that game is only interested in putting good English players anywhere but in my team.  

That other guy keeps going on about Salah Mane and Robertson...the players I get in my intakes are nowhere near. 

To the point I don’t really feel there was any value in investing in youth facilities in or even employing a HOYD.

And im a thorough player btw, down to 5* coaching, individual training, man management, renewing contracts, press conference...trust me my youth setup is at its maximum possible efficiency, I haven’t mistaken any steps I should have to made it a better environment.

I just don’t rate the way the game deals with it. 

Of course they are nowhere near TODAY.  That's what POTENTIAL means.  A 4* potential in the Premier League means "This man could be as good as Mo Salah, a Star Premier League player."  A 3* potential in the Premier League means "This man could be as good as Andy Robertson, a Good Premier League Player."

I'm using examples to prove my point.  You are saying your intakes aren't decent when you're drawing 4* players to develop, but if you actually developed them correctly, they'd be about on par with Mo Salah.  

I really didn't think this was that hard to understand.

EDIT: Your youth setup is also not at its max possible efficiency, you've already stated that your HoYD's preferred formation isn't the one you play, so right there you aren't at maximum efficiency.  You've made it clear you disregard the preferred formation and the personality, but not only have SI staff said it, I've witnessed its effects on countless occasions, so believe what you will.  Am I nitpicking on this?  Sure... but since I'm "going on about" things, I figured I'd make sure you understand.

[Snorks]

2 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

Sorry but I’m seeing decent players with decent green stats (Dark FLUT skin) showing up at other clubs. 

We are talking 11+ everywhere in the mental department, 15+ in the physical, 11+ in the technical department. 

It happens everywhere else, it doesn’t happen at my club. And the point I’m trying to make is that I have all the boxes you can possibly tick in my favour, even my manager rep and club rep and facilities have gone up since this game.

york City isn’t a vanarama north team any more, it’s big boys with a small stadium. 

If it’s a matter of odds and reloads, I’ve reloaded enough to tell you that that game is only interested in putting good English players anywhere but in my team.  

That other guy keeps going on about Salah Mane and Robertson...the players I get in my intakes are nowhere near. 

To the point I don’t really feel there was any value in investing in youth facilities in or even employing a HOYD.

And im a thorough player btw, down to 5* coaching, individual training, man management, renewing contracts, press conference...trust me my youth setup is at its maximum possible efficiency, I haven’t mistaken any steps I should have to made it a better environment.

I just don’t rate the way the game deals with it. 

But, how long have you been at that level - your club, youth, everything rep takes years and is often way way behind your actual club position before you see the benefits.

Plus, now that you mention the Skin you use, are there other customisations you are running that may  affect the database? Not sure how the dark FLUT skin would affect it, but once you start bolting bits on it can do.

Anyway, I am going to try very hard to get back to work and leave this for now, if, as York City manager you are not happy with 4* potential youth intakes then  I really don;t know what to advise you.

[jaysdailydose]

1 minute ago, Snorks said:

But, how long have you been at that level - your club, youth, everything rep takes years and is often way way behind your actual club position before you see the benefits.

Plus, now that you mention the Skin you use, are there other customisations you are running that may  affect the database? Not sure how the dark FLUT skin would affect it, but once you start bolting bits on it can do.

Anyway, I am going to try very hard to get back to work and leave this for now, if, as York City manager you are not happy with 4* potential youth intakes then  I really don;t know what to advise you.

I asked him if he'd do 5 more reloads and take screenshots so we could see the intakes... I'm truly hoping he does so we could analyze them.  

[Snorks]

7 minutes ago, jaysdailydose said:

Great post, Snorks.

I definitely don't disagree, obviously scouts and HoYD work year-round in real life.  Their duties are obviously simplified, and require a "suspension of belief" and some role-play as to how they actually do their job, when we obviously know the game functions behind it.  No one is disputing that.

As you said, the reason people are still posting in this older thread is mostly because of that first post... to see someone wonder why they aren't getting 3* current Premier League players straight out of the intake, and that getting 4*'s in their York City intakes in the Premier League is somehow unacceptable, is the type of thing that makes me want to post.  

I actually want people to enjoy their saves, for some strange reason.  I should be playing, but this damned thread caught my interest.  I *love* Youth Development saves, and have done countless tests and experiments over the years trying to learn more about it.  I know the star system can be confusing, especially if someone works all the way up the leagues and then all of the sudden start seeing low star ratings once they get to the Promised Land.

I'm definitely tired of this idea that if you disagree with a frankly ludicrous point, like the one made in the first post of this thread, that you must be a SI fanboy... that kind of stuff sets people's teeth on edge.

With you on that,  I want people to enjoy this game as much as I do,  and willingly give time here but I have a vivid imagination and can easily willingly suspend disbelief to play a fantasy game ( I would have thought the two were intrinsically linked anyway - could you enjoy a fantasy without imagination and suspended disbelief?)

 

Glad you have the option to switch this off and lay - I am at work (ssshhhh don;t tell the boss) and sitting here typing makes me look far more productive than playing FM lol

[Snorks]

1 minute ago, jaysdailydose said:

I asked him if he'd do 5 more reloads and take screenshots so we could see the intakes... I'm truly hoping he does so we could analyze them.  

I am holding ......my.........breat..........

Spoiler

 

 

[roger redknapp]

11 minutes ago, jaysdailydose said:

Of course they are nowhere near TODAY.  That's what POTENTIAL means.  A 4* potential in the Premier League means "This man could be as good as Mo Salah, a Star Premier League player."  A 3* potential in the Premier League means "This man could be as good as Andy Robertson, a Good Premier League Player."

I'm using examples to prove my point.  You are saying your intakes aren't decent when you're drawing 4* players to develop, but if you actually developed them correctly, they'd be about on par with Mo Salah.  

I really didn't think this was that hard to understand.

I get one 4* PA in every 30-50 reloads. I just don’t think that is interesting.  They just don’t compare to 4* PA at other clubs that grow into £50m players. 

I’d rather pick and choose players from a list from the HOYD monthly, so I could actually build a team of under 23/18 that I want the club to work with.

He needs to be able to be interacted with and told off for doing his job poorly.

im in 7 Nov so I can’t fast forward to intake just yet. But I promise you sometimes I get this: 

“Jon Smith & Oliver Jones are two players I’ve signed based on my personality” or “based on my tactical philosophy”

i cant remember the exact wording.  And the youth prospects the HOYD brings in he takes credit for are absolute garbage.  It’s the same when DOF or HOYD go out and approach players or young players we should sign. They make silly bids for garbage players.

this is why I wrote this, I understand what I’m saying belittles the current algorithm, but the below makes sense.: 

Its overnight bus stop gathering churn approach doesn’t represent real life. Players play and are scouted and recommended to HOYDs weekly, not willing to debate that fact, I have family friends in lower league football. 

 Also it’s approach to personality’s is flawed, as though a man employed in a job with a balanced personality somehow by the stars aligning somehow leads 10 unambitious footballers to premier league team trials.  Do me a favour and don’t defend this nonsense. 

And on top of that, I’m supposed to sit here and pretend that I can’t talk and communicate with a member of staff I spend £500k a year on feeding his family. And say, “I don’t give a flying unicorn what your preferred formation is,  this club plays XXXX’  

 

[roger redknapp]

I’m keen to get to youth intake so we can chat about some intake screen shots. 

I will however always cheat this aspect and reload regularly until they overhaul the element of the game as I feel like the cards stack against you from the off. 

I have remembered on previous games in the past having great intakes, but must have been at top clubs. 

I’ve read elsewhere that the game may have database problems with reputations changing, and the game world actually responding to that. It may be why sometimes I find transfer dealings have felt slightly more laboured than on my Wolves career where I eventually moved to UTD

[Snorks]

As long as you enjoy it - that's the main thing. 

[jaysdailydose]

2 minutes ago, roger redknapp said:

I get one 4* PA in every 30-50 reloads. I just don’t think that is interesting.  They just don’t compare to 4* PA at other clubs that grow into £50m players. 

I’d rather pick and choose players from a list from the HOYD monthly, so I could actually build a team of under 23/18 that I want the club to work with.

He needs to be able to be interacted with and told off for doing his job poorly.

im in 7 Nov so I can’t fast forward to intake just yet. But I promise you sometimes I get this: 

“Jon Smith & Oliver Jones are two players I’ve signed based on my personality” or “based on my tactical philosophy”

i cant remember the exact wording.  And the youth prospects the HOYD brings in he takes credit for are absolute garbage.  It’s the same when DOF or HOYD go out and approach players or young players we should sign. They make silly bids for garbage players.

this is why I wrote this, I understand what I’m saying belittles the current algorithm, but the below makes sense.: 

Its overnight bus stop gathering churn approach doesn’t represent real life. Players play and are scouted and recommended to HOYDs weekly, not willing to debate that fact, I have family friends in lower league football. 

 Also it’s approach to personality’s is flawed, as though a man employed in a job with a balanced personality somehow by the stars aligning somehow leads 10 unambitious footballers to premier league team trials.  Do me a favour and don’t defend this nonsense. 

And on top of that, I’m supposed to sit here and pretend that I can’t talk and communicate with a member of staff I spend £500k a year on feeding his family. And say, “I don’t give a flying unicorn what your preferred formation is,  this club plays XXXX’  

 - It isn’t a remote representation of reality. You can be as snobby as you like about it.  

OK, you've already written a bunch of that, but I'll go for it.  I'll pull quotes out and respond/ask questions, bold will be you...

Quote

"I get one 4* PA in every 30-50 reloads. I just don’t think that is interesting.  They just don’t compare to 4* PA at other clubs that grow into £50m players."

4* PA is a Star Premier League player, so if that's true, I'm just wondering how often you believe you should be getting a 4* player in?  How many years have you stablized in the Prem?  What other clubs are producing these £50M players, are they mostly higher reputation than you?  

What started you reloading?  This is something I've never done, I've always just played the hand I'm dealt, except in the instance of a crash, of course.  How often were you getting 3 and 3.5 star players?  
 

Quote

 

I’d rather pick and choose players from a list from the HOYD monthly, so I could actually build a team of under 23/18 that I want the club to work with.

He needs to be able to be interacted with and told off for doing his job poorly.

im in 7 Nov so I can’t fast forward to intake just yet. But I promise you sometimes I get this: 

“Jon Smith & Oliver Jones are two players I’ve signed based on my personality” or “based on my tactical philosophy”

i cant remember the exact wording.  And the youth prospects the HOYD brings in he takes credit for are absolute garbage.  It’s the same when DOF or HOYD go out and approach players or young players we should sign. They make silly bids for garbage players.

 

I'd be fine with the first two lines, but that's probably going to be highly intensive processor-wise, as you are going to want all AI teams to approach THEIR developments in the same way.  I'd also argue that most managers are not intimately involved with the process at youth level, and some managers leave it solely to their staff.  But, I wouldn't argue if a system like that were implemented, if it were well thought-out and done correctly to leave the AI on an equal playing field.  As it is right now, it looks like another place where a human player is just going to be able to outshine the AI, even if it is programmed very, very well.

Your intake really is those choices anyway, I'd argue.  Those are the kids that have been playing at your academy in your youth teams growing up, and who your HoYD and the other youth coaches have recruited in to the lower age groups.  You're still probably only going to be able to pick from a list that would wind up resembling what you get now, just you would likely sign less and have smaller "intakes."  I'm fine with there being more player input, though, of course.  You just want it to be done correctly and not unbalance everything, and you can't really argue that FM is unbalanced in this regard at this point -- most people are happy with the RESULTS of the youth system, even if they aren't necessarily totally sold on how they come to those results.  

I *do* totally agree that I should be allowed more interaction with the staff as a whole, and yes, I should be able to rip him a new arse if I think he's doing a poor job.  No disagreements.  

I rarely play with a DoF, and I rarely let the HoYD go out and find players, but when I do, they have brought me some gems... and they do bring a lot of garbage.  I'll have to do a save on FM18 with them being more involved with those aspects and see my results.

Quote

Its overnight bus stop gathering churn approach doesn’t represent real life. Players play and are scouted and recommended to HOYDs weekly, not willing to debate that fact, I have family friends in lower league football. 

Not everything is going to be representative of real life, for game design reasons.  Honestly, most of the playerbase would turn the lower echelons of scouting reports to their staff, and would want an "intake" style final report anyway.  No one is going to debate with you that the game is representative of real life in those aspects... nor is it programmed to be.  Since most players are fully content to let their staff get that "final report" style, they do a watered-down simulation that is supposed to represent a montage of all of those activities.  

No one would argue with it if they decided to go deeper on it, especially if it was able to be delegated like most coaching and scouting functions are now.  

 

 

Quote

 

 Also it’s approach to personality’s is flawed, as though a man employed in a job with a balanced personality somehow by the stars aligning somehow leads 10 unambitious footballers to premier league team trials.  Do me a favour and don’t defend this nonsense. 

And on top of that, I’m supposed to sit here and pretend that I can’t talk and communicate with a member of staff I spend £500k a year on feeding his family. And say, “I don’t give a flying unicorn what your preferred formation is,  this club plays XXXX’  

 - It isn’t a remote representation of reality. You can be as snobby as you like about it.  

 

I actually think the personality system and its effects are well-done.  It isn't a given that he'll "change" someone's personality, and as someone who has coached 11-13 year olds on a regular basis, a coach that is a positive influence in a child's life will DEFINITELY have aspects of their personality rub off on those children.  

You SHOULD certainly be able to interact with a member of the staff, but someone who is a 4-4-2 disciple is still going to have a better job deciding who will be better players for that formation than yours.  It has an IMPACT, it isn't the be-all, end-all.  Obviously, your HoYD still does his job, but he doesn't necessarily always get you players in the positions you like.  Even the ones that have your preferred formation will still get you someone that mainly plays outside of your formation sometimes (AMC is a great example) but it makes an impact and keeps those "useless" players to a minimum.  

While most of us wouldn't complain about it being more realistic, I don't think most of us expect a crazy close representation of reality, either -- they obviously have to make the game playable, and not take an hour between each continue, or only the most die-hard addicts would play.  

HOWEVER: 

My prior points still stand, mostly because they were based around the star ratings.  Even in your ideal scouting system, you're still not going to see 3* current ability guys just rolling through your system, even with your enhanced involvement.  I'm really interested in your next few intakes now, because honestly, I find it really hard to believe that you could take those facilities, even with a lowered reputation to most top-flight clubs as a recently-promoted clubs, and reload 50+ times and not have gotten an acceptable intake, unless you are shooting just insanely high... which you definitely appeared to be in your first post, and in a lot of posts thereafter.  

I mean, you've apparently reloaded an intake with a 4* player in a Premier League intake at York City... that honestly made my jaw drop when I read it.  

I really hope you'll come back to the thread in the future and share your intakes... hell, run a rolling auto save and when you get to intake day, do some reloading... I'm sure that I'm not the only one that would be curious to see what kind of future intakes you're getting.  

I've got to go play now, I'll check your reply later, as this was a book, but I wanted to cover all of your points.

[jaysdailydose]

I'm doing a challenge save myself right now, but this thread almost makes me want to do a Career Update with Ajax or a Red Star or something and focus on the Youth Development aspects.

(I used to have a FM blog and I'm itching to write again anyway...and I need a backup save to my main save anyway... hmmm...)  

[santy001]

One massive thing that invalidates pretty much everything you say in this thread in regards to the ratings of the youth players @roger redknapp is you reload so you never find out what the actual deal with these players are.

I don't have enough snapshots across my saves to demonstrate but I've seen no hope players go on to become some of the best in the world and I've seen the next big things retired in their mid-20's because they couldn't find a club.

The only one I remember off the top of my head has been a ridiculous edge case:

 

When he came through at 16 all that stood out was a high passing stat, and my coaches rated him at around 2-3 star potential. That didn't change until he got to around 19. He still didn't look that special though until around 21/22 and by 25 he's a fantastic player. 

In some cases though, even 9-10 years isn't enough, because the development of FM allows for late bloomers.

I sold that guy at 23, and now at 30 he is a genuinely good forward. Probably wouldn't be my first choice, but he'd definitely make my squad and get 20+ games a season for me. It's only been the last couple of years he's really come strong and looked solid. Yet now the game must be 14 years down the line from his regen day. 

- - - -

Also the point about regens coming in on a set day, it varies by leagues but I'm pretty sure SI have said its done this way to reduce the processing burden for people. By it happening at one set-time its one instance of processing that obviously goes much quicker being done in bulk than it would being done in dribs and drabs through the season.

Makes a lot of sense because presumably to get to another system there would have to be some kind of regen spawn timer system or some decay system that the game has to keep processing/doing checks against with a chance of a regen until you hit a day where you're almost 100% guaranteed to get a regen. Doing that for every team in every league would probably be pretty crippling to the game.

Alternatively they could still spawn on the same day and be parachuted in across the season, but that is not changing the system, just disguising it.

[2feet]

On 06/05/2018 at 11:44, herne79 said:

A 16 year old with 1 star CA and 4 star PA has the potential to be great for you - better than pretty much everyone else in your current first team.  All you have to do is develop him and by the time he's 21 he could be a first team regular, if not a key player.

1) Tutor him to improve his personality if needed.  Players with better professionalism, ambition and determination (which can be personality traits) train better.  Look for senior players (age 24+) with high attributes in those areas (your coach report will tell you) and/or senior players who have a personality such as Resolute, Highly Professional, Professional, Perfectionist, Spirited, Model Citizen to act as Tutors for the youngsters.

2) Before the age of 18 training takes precedence in player development, so set up a decent training program for him.  Take control, don't rely on your staff.

3) Match time is always relevant (more so after 18 years old) so make sure he's playing regularly in your youth teams.  If he's as good as you say that should happen by default.

4) Keep an eye on how he develops and change things if needed.  Of course he's not guaranteed to develop rapidly, but following the basic steps above will improve the chances of it happening.

When you say to setup a training plan (see above) what does that mean? Does it mean I should select different roles for him over the course of the year to try to improve the attributes for the role I want him to play when hes 21? Is there anything else that you mean by a 'training plan?'

[herne79]

1 minute ago, 2feet said:

When you say to setup a training plan (see above) what does that mean? Does it mean I should select different roles for him over the course of the year to try to improve the attributes for the role I want him to play when hes 21? Is there anything else that you mean by a 'training plan?'

It just means setting individual training yourself, depending on how you want to shape the player - rather than leaving it to a member of staff .

[HUNT3R]

10 hours ago, roger redknapp said:

I get one 4* PA in every 30-50 reloads. I just don’t think that is interesting.  They just don’t compare to 4* PA at other clubs that grow into £50m players. 

I’d rather pick and choose players from a list from the HOYD monthly, so I could actually build a team of under 23/18 that I want the club to work with.

He needs to be able to be interacted with and told off for doing his job poorly.

I'd be careful about judging young players too quickly. Did a quick run (and I did save the screenshots), I've had cases where a 82 PA (2.5* PA) player had the same as a 136 PA (2.5* PA) and both were in an intake containing a 2*, 140 PA player.

I've had quite a few intakes where I could have discarded players for having 2* or less PA, but they were 140+ PA players. Twice, they were the BEST of the entire intake, but not rated highly by the staff.

Give the young players a chance before making a decision to keep or cut.

Oh and this was with Man Utd.

[theonets]

I find some people's refusal to listen also baffling.

 

You may pay a staff member 500k an year, but you don't hire said staff member on 500k a year unless he actually plays your formation. He has some sort of a valid point, but a compromise would only that staff member bringing in players of your formation, but they're not developed at all well, since he's not an expert at it. Even if you're arguing this is how it should be in FM, it still doesn't mean your approach of having him is right. 

 

I said it early, and I'll say it again, if you don't want to play a 4-4-2, then you don't hire a 4-4-2 loving, direct football playing dinosaur to manage your kids.

 

[CFuller]

1 hour ago, theonets said:

I find some people's refusal to listen also baffling.

You may pay a staff member 500k an year, but you don't hire said staff member on 500k a year unless he actually plays your formation. He has some sort of a valid point, but a compromise would only that staff member bringing in players of your formation, but they're not developed at all well, since he's not an expert at it. Even if you're arguing this is how it should be in FM, it still doesn't mean your approach of having him is right. 

I said it early, and I'll say it again, if you don't want to play a 4-4-2, then you don't hire a 4-4-2 loving, direct football playing dinosaur to manage your kids.

Exactly this. That would be akin to Manchester City appointing Sam Allardyce or John Beck to replace Txiki Begiristain as their Director of Football.

[theonets]

18 minutes ago, CFuller said:

Exactly this. That would be akin to Manchester City appointing Sam Allardyce or John Beck to replace Txiki Begiristain as their Director of Football.

And then complaining about how they should know you're Pep and you don't want Carroll on loan and Crouchie on a free.