RBKalle Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I know it's gonna sound insane, but please bear with me... We've been discussing A LOT about how the ME affects the game and one of the biggest bone of contention is the infamous "visual representation" conundrum. Apparently, plenty of inconsequential and downright absurd stuff we witness while watching a game is more of a visual glitch than an actual "mistake" of the game. Now of course we can't know for sure and we have to take the devs' word. Also there are hardware limitations to take into account. A more realistic and detailed ME would require more powerful hardware, cutting off a sizeable chunk of customers and putting even more strain on systems that already have to process the impressive amount of data required by the management part of FM. So that got me thinking... Wait a minute, other current-gen sports management games don't have an overly refined or graphically taxing graphical engine... Eastside Hockey Manager is 2D, Motorsport Manager is faux 3D, OOTP 18 looks like Championship Manager 2006... I know, I know "but those games don't have to replicate 22 players' actions throughout 90 minutes!!!"... Still, I feel the focus on better animations, more realistic graphics and overall more polished presentation is a bit of a faux problem, whereas huge flaws in terms of basic football dynamics have been present since the very beginning (one rewrite and 20+ patches nonwithstanding). So I'm asking... Shouldn't the main focus be on replicating "realistic" football first, and THEN adding bells and whistles to it? Frankly, I'd rather have 22 "coloured sticks" on a 2D/3D pitch playing RESPONSIVE, realistic football, over a FIFA-like presentation where wide play is either overpowered or totally ineffective (depending on the year), world-class players hit the corner flag with banana-shots once per game, closing down and tight marking are completely off and so on. If the current vision behind the ME hasn't been able to progress at the expected rate, and, as said, one huge rewrite hasn't eradicated some issues, and, arguably, has made them WORSE, probably it'd be worthwhile evaluating a different approach for the next ME, focusing more on WHAT happens, instead of HOW it looks. Not only it'd solve the CPU/GPU power conundrum, but it'd also allow resources to be moved to other areas of the game. Despite SI always stating "we're not FIFA", I can't help but feel that the aesthetics of the ME have become too prominent lately. Time to actually put it on the backburner in favour of getting the TC-to-ME transition more straightforward and streamlined? I dream the day when I'll know that if my fullback is completely lost somewhere, while the opposite winger is ravaging us, it'll be MY FAULT and I'll be immediately able to spot why, instead of it being "a visual representation" of god knows what. Or a coding error... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Short answer: no. And its also clear they have no plans to, they're going to be pushing it harder and harder. It's not just visual, its the physics model underneath that needs to be constantly developed to get the best of the ME in on a fundamental movement level Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUBI Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 It's time to get a step forward. 2D is history now. It's time to improve the 3D. I think the implementation of the new graphic engine (which is full 3D) is the right step. I hope we will see better 3D animations in the next editions. There is no way to go back to 2D, in my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger666 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 15 minutes ago, KUBI said: It's time to get a step forward. 2D is history now. It's time to improve the 3D. I think the implementation of the new graphic engine (which is full 3D) is the right step. I hope we will see better 3D animations in the next editions. There is no way to go back to 2D, in my opinion. The day 2D is abandoned is the day I quit FM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUBI Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 vor 1 Minute schrieb Tiger666: The day 2D is abandoned is the day I quit FM. It already happen. There is only a 3D engine now with a 2D view. That's the reason why you can't turn 3D off anymore, as there is no other engine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooter28 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 17 minutes ago, KUBI said: It's time to get a step forward. 2D is history now. It's time to improve the 3D. I think the implementation of the new graphic engine (which is full 3D) is the right step. I hope we will see better 3D animations in the next editions. There is no way to go back to 2D, in my opinion. Wow saying 2D is history now is a bad choice btw for alot of ppl its the only way they play Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUBI Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Gerade eben schrieb scooter28: Wow saying 2D is history now is a bad choice btw for alot of ppl its the only way they play Again, there is NO 2D graphic engine in the game anymore. The new graphic engine is 3D only with a 2D view you can choose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooter28 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Just now, KUBI said: Again, there is NO 2D graphic engine in the game anymore. The new graphic engine is 3D only with a 2D view you can choose. Well you see it as 2D or am i wrong? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapa42 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 You are viewing the 3D graphics engine with a 2D view. So the only ME is the 3D one. Previously, there were essentially 2 match engines - one for 3D viewing and one for 2D viewing. Its why some user with lower-end systems can't run FM18 effectively because the single 3D match engine is more demanding. Which is unfortunate but having 2 MEs doesn't really make sense..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Bigpapa42 said: You are viewing the 3D graphics engine with a 2D view. So the only ME is the 3D one. Previously, there were essentially 2 match engines - one for 3D viewing and one for 2D viewing. Its why some user with lower-end systems can't run FM18 effectively because the single 3D match engine is more demanding. Which is unfortunate but having 2 MEs doesn't really make sense..... One match engine, and we have a graphics engine to interpret that. Prior to FM18, we had two graphics engine, one for 3d one for 2d. Now we have one for both. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooter28 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, Bigpapa42 said: You are viewing the 3D graphics engine with a 2D view. So the only ME is the 3D one. Previously, there were essentially 2 match engines - one for 3D viewing and one for 2D viewing. Its why some user with lower-end systems can't run FM18 effectively because the single 3D match engine is more demanding. Which is unfortunate but having 2 MEs doesn't really make sense..... Right i get you i myself play in the 3d view ever since the 3d came out but i can understand why some folk would be upset if they took the 2D VIEW away i now understand its the same me but am sure it would still upset a great number of ppl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger666 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 14 minutes ago, KUBI said: It already happen. There is only a 3D engine now with a 2D view. That's the reason why you can't turn 3D off anymore, as there is no other engine. Yeah I'm with you. I skim read and thought the 2D view was being discussed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUBI Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Nobody wants to remove the 2D view, but it is basically just a specific camera view now. That's why I posted, that 2D is history. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, scooter28 said: Right i get you i myself play in the 3d view ever since the 3d came out but i can understand why some folk would be upset if they took the 2D VIEW away i now understand its the same me but am sure it would still upset a great number of ppl The game is reaching a point, if it hasn't already, where it cannot be all things to all people if it wants to make those big leaps ahead. Some big decisions lie ahead I feel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapa42 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 5 minutes ago, Rashidi said: One match engine, and we have a graphics engine to interpret that. Prior to FM18, we had two graphics engine, one for 3d one for 2d. Now we have one for both. Sorry, poor clarity on my part. Muddling ME and graphics engine together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooter28 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Just now, themadsheep2001 said: The game is reaching a point, if it hasn't already, where it cannot be all things to all people if it wants to make those big leaps ahead. Some big decisions lie ahead I feel Sure i can understand that things move on its a different generation that is playing the game more (i guess) but alot of older players use the 2d view having played every champ/football manager game myself i went with the 3d 1st time it came out though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 30 minutes ago, scooter28 said: Sure i can understand that things move on its a different generation that is playing the game more (i guess) but alot of older players use the 2d view having played every champ/football manager game myself i went with the 3d 1st time it came out though SI will at some point have to make a decision on whether to cater to the older FM'ers who will form a naturally decreasing cohort or take a step that attempts to draw in a new generation of players by increasing the system requirements to a level that allows them to calculate more realistic physics, the latter being the only logic step if the game is to progress. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 21 minutes ago, Barside said: SI will at some point have to make a decision on whether to cater to the older FM'ers who will form a naturally decreasing cohort or take a step that attempts to draw in a new generation of players by increasing the system requirements to a level that allows them to calculate more realistic physics, the latter being the only logic step if the game is to progress. This is easier said than done, but if I was in SI and the latter was the road i was taking, I'd be announced some kind of "road map" lay out the long term vision, at the very least, it would give those old faithfuls time to reinvest in hardware if they wanted to stay with it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I’d never say it would be an easy decision to make & as you say if it was the chosen path it would only be fair to the community to announce it at least a year in advance to give those lower end users who want to stay on board time to prepare for any significant hardware upgrade. Done in the right way & the fallout can be mitigated or completely avoided. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBKalle Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 I see... Let me rephrase the question then... Is a visually life-like 3D engine really the ONLY WAY to get a realistic rendition of a football match in a management game? A football match that reflects our (or AI's) tactical choices and instructions? You say 2D is dead, and so be it, in the name of technical progress, marketing and catering to new fans (who, incidentally will instantly crap all over the 3D ME as "geez, FIFA08 looked much better"). But the current 3D vision has yet to deliver rather basic stuff like keepers conceding penalties on 1-on-1s, convincing duels for the ball, jostling for position etc. All factors that without doubt can change the dynamics of a game... And that comes even first than the other dubious bits we've been discussing to death lately. Focusing too much on the aesthetic side of the match isn't necessarily important IMO as long as we don't have the hardware to, basically, run the old FM during the processing part of the game and a FIFA/PES redux during the actual match. The biggest challenge should be to create a realistic match, coherent with the tactical setup of each team. If it must look like Sensible Soccer, so be it... Instead the focus has shifted toward improving visuals that will still NOT impress casual fans or attract newbies. Again, I hate to bring up other games, but PES and FIFA have "vanilla" management modes that add a bit of depth to both games, but are nowhere near as good as any early CM, let alone FM... And it'd be a huge waste of effort, time and money for EA or Konami to try to expand too much on it. Beucase... THAT'S NOT THE POINT OF THOSE GAMES! For the same reason, I don't quite get why SI are so set in their ways even though the 3D engine has been a huge pain in the neck and, I daresay, hasn't provided the desired results in terms of realism, not at the rate it was expected or supposed to anyway. If 2D dots can "behave" realistically and allow us to create good tactic and decent matches, consistent with our instructions, I'd gladly take it over a polished 3D match engine (that, to the untrained and casual eye, looks like FIFA Manager 05 anyway...). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Barside said: I’d never say it would be an easy decision to make & as you say if it was the chosen path it would only be fair to the community to announce it at least a year in advance to give those lower end users who want to stay on board time to prepare for any significant hardware upgrade. Done in the right way & the fallout can be mitigated or completely avoided. I would really like something to work my rig atm, I just find that we could be pushing my 64GB Ram 2TB SSD drive 4.2ghz cpu machine a bit harder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUBI Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 @RBKalle You are confusing 3D and the match engine. 3D are animations that represent the ME. Two different kind of coders are working on those modules. The core is the ME. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Jokes aside, the graphics match engine for FM18 is still a work in progress. Its a new graphics engine, there is a new match controller, and there are certain graphical stuff that is missing in FM18 that was there in previous editions. like snow covered pitches. So while I can see that people might be frustrated, this reminds me of a time not long ago, when they added new features in the game and it got better over time. I do feel and I am sure a lot of people feel that the representation of the game needs improvement, that there is missing connections between what happens on the screen or the lack of it. Jostling, pushing...etc are all stuff that needs to be added to the game, and including, stuff like going into a challenge, going to ground and taking as long to get up as Emre Can normally does. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBarbaric Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I don't mind if 3d match looked like this as long as football played made a stronger connection with real football Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBKalle Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 26 minuti fa, KUBI ha scritto: @RBKalle You are confusing 3D and the match engine. 3D are animations that represent the ME. Two different kind of coders are working on those modules. The core is the ME. That's even better then! The 3D could (should?) be kept on hold while the many idiosyncrasies of the ME get ironed out... But my original point still stands? As a current-gen looking 3D engine is out of question for obvious reasons, is it still a good idea sticking with a visual compromise that older fans don't really mind and that casual fans/potential new players won't appreciate? Just think of how much resources (human and financial) could be employed differently if the visual translation of the ME were again a pure 2D, or a faux 3D like other similar games. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 14 minutes ago, Rashidi said: Jokes aside, the graphics match engine for FM18 is still a work in progress. Its a new graphics engine, there is a new match controller, and there are certain graphical stuff that is missing in FM18 that was there in previous editions. like snow covered pitches. So while I can see that people might be frustrated, this reminds me of a time not long ago, when they added new features in the game and it got better over time. I do feel and I am sure a lot of people feel that the representation of the game needs improvement, that there is missing connections between what happens on the screen or the lack of it. Jostling, pushing...etc are all stuff that needs to be added to the game, and including, stuff like going into a challenge, going to ground and taking as long to get up as Emre Can normally does. Yep, and all that will only come by improving the physics model underneath. Forwards, not backwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 1 minute ago, RBKalle said: That's even better then! The 3D could (should?) be kept on hold while the many idiosyncrasies of the ME get ironed out... But my original point still stands? As a current-gen looking 3D engine is out of question for obvious reasons, is it still a good idea sticking with a visual compromise that older fans don't really mind and that casual fans/potential new players won't appreciate? They aren't sticking with it, they are constantly evolving it. You can't really separate the two either. The physics that underpins the visual graphics, underpins the ME too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUBI Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 vor 1 Minute schrieb RBKalle: That's even better then! The 3D could (should?) be kept on hold while the many idiosyncrasies of the ME get ironed out... But my original point still stands? As a current-gen looking 3D engine is out of question for obvious reasons, is it still a good idea sticking with a visual compromise that older fans don't really mind and that casual fans/potential new players won't appreciate? No, 3D animations needs a step forward. There is no point to go back visually. It's still possible to use commentary only if you don't like to watch 3D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporadicsmiles Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, RBKalle said: That's even better then! The 3D could (should?) be kept on hold while the many idiosyncrasies of the ME get ironed out... But my original point still stands? As a current-gen looking 3D engine is out of question for obvious reasons, is it still a good idea sticking with a visual compromise that older fans don't really mind and that casual fans/potential new players won't appreciate? Something as complex to code as the ME is never, ever going to be bug free. Ever. It is always going to have situations where it behaves weirdly. There is little you can do about that as a developer except to make sure you catch as many as possible. Also, you definitely cannot change a single thing in isolation within this game code. It is bound to be massively intertwined; changing small things in one place can have unexpected consequences elsewhere. That is why, rarely, some bugs take a long time to find a proper fix. The 3D match engine is a definite upgrade over the 2D match engine for me anyway. Whilst I use the 2D view on occasion to get a broad overview of how my team is playing, it is hardly riveting to watch dots kick a dot around. You have no context to what happens that way, at all. At least 3D gives you that context. There is also no point in going backwards with this. I would imagine the ME and the graphics engine are also extremely intertwined. Both can and will be improved, but it is an incremental process. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBKalle Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 12 minuti fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto: Forwards, not backwards. It doesn't need to be backwards... But sideways... 10 minuti fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto: They aren't sticking with it, they are constantly evolving it. You can't really separate the two either. The physics that underpins the visual graphics, underpins the ME too There was only 2D before the 3D era, and plenty of the game's mechanics are largely unchanged (on the surface). I can't possibly know how it works under the hood, but the same physics can be worked into a different visual model, can't it? 9 minuti fa, KUBI ha scritto: It's still possible to use commentary only if you don't like to watch 3D. That was so not my point! It's not about what "I like"... It's about how counterintuitive the whole 3D endeavour has become. For all I care, as Mbarbaric said, FM2020 could look like Mexico '86 if it means the ME has been "fixed" and most of the issues we've been talking about were gone. Visually, I do like 3D, but as things have been evolving, I'm just wondering whether it's worth all the effort while much more important things are so far removed from football it barely matters if the match is pleasing to the eyes. If AI Barça play like Wigan, or if AI Guardiola plays counter 4-5-1, my enjoyment of the visually neat new turf or the new dribbling animation is minimal... I'd rather sit through an "ugly" but functional match, yes even with boring 2D dots, over a decent-looking thing that vaguely resembles football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, RBKalle said: It doesn't need to be backwards... But sideways... There was only 2D before the 3D era, and plenty of the game's mechanics are largely unchanged (on the surface). I can't possibly know how it works under the hood, but the same physics can be worked into a different visual model, can't it? That was so not my point! It's not about what "I like"... It's about how counterintuitive the whole 3D endeavour has become. For all I care, as Mbarbaric said, FM2020 could look like Mexico '86 if it means the ME has been "fixed" and most of the issues we'be been talking about were gone. Visually, I do like 3D, but as things have been evolving, I'm just wondering whether it's worth all the effort while much more important things are so far removed from football it barely matters if the match is pleasing to the eyes. Sideways is an expensive waste of resources manpower and time on something this major. You can't work 3D physics into a 2D model, without having a 3D model in the first place. The animations aren't just visual eye candy, they are part of the physics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etebaer Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I stopped playing 2D Modes since at least isometric view was offered. Watching circles gives no Feedback! The problem, the big and deep Problem of this 3D Engine is the Feedback - how Things are visualized - i still honestly feel that FM13 gave me a better Feedback than FM16/17/18 do aside that i dont know what is a bug, what is a visualization difficulty and what is outright a bad implementation of tacitcs like slow defenders that catch up fast offensive Players as if they were Usain Bolt vs Limping Mummy, or why Players that simply have broken through and 5 Yard ahead stop and wait for being catched. Tactic is not the only decisive factor in Football - Morale, Physical+Technical+Mental Quality/Skills, Fitness also decide Football and look how often big Teams dont win by tactic but win by Quality/Skill-Superiority - most often they do - that is bcs tactics tend to neutralize each other and defending+counterattacking is superior to playmaking+attacking if the skill/qualitygap is small. Guardiolas time in Germany you can describe as "1001 ways to rob a Babys Lollipop", Pep was almost nothing without Robben at Bayern Munich who overshadowed Ribery by very far and he learned from it and has even more "Differencemakers" in his Team nowadays and i think the game lacks feedback in that regard too. Ist easy to be a tactical genius if you have no match, no competition...but you fail in the big games for unawareness of your weak spots and so he never won the CL in Munich aside of his bad Management of recovering Players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Indemnity Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Worth noting that OOTP is reportedly taking a big step forward with their 3D this year. No screenshots yet that I'm aware of, but they're moving to actual player models instead of the "pawns." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUBI Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 If someone decide to stop or going back - this is ok. But if you run a business and if you develop a computer game - there is just one direction. Forward. And this also means you will lose some people, just because they prefer to stay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I am going to throw this out there since this is more a discussion than a rant and I love different points of view, especially in the context of software development. When it comes to a game that claims it is a simulation then it’s even more interesting that there are multiple points of view. As far as simulations go, we need a degree of accuracy so if this is about football then my definition of its scope would be to make it feel like I was at a football game, instead of being at a terminal hitting buttons. Here we need to achieve several things: 1. A degree of immersion and immediacy when it comes to decision making. I want to feel like every decision I make feels like an instruction I am handing down to my team. And this makes me recall an actual game I managed. At the start of the season my squad were dubbed as the worst side in the league, So I fielded a team with high determination and work rate and we actually used a real life version of Scramjet. During the course of the season I had a player who was a hot head, he was also one of our best players. In our first match I explained to him the importance of a level head, and that he would be the target of tackles and closing down. Needless to say he ignored my instructions and well got sent off in our first game. Players sometimes follow your instructions and sometimes they will do their own thing . The game needs to reflect that, it has to be able to draw me in and make me feel exasperated too when things don’t happen the way i want them to. If a hot head in FM can cool down ALL the time with the flip of a switch, that is unrealistic and does not simulate actual human decision making. 2. While there is an argument for a 2d view and a 3D view, I want to see the underlying physics engine improved and I want to see that translated into actual graphics. I do not want accurate feedback from the ass man that tells me what shape the AI is using. That is too much of an advantage to me. If it’s using a structured shape with a lower mentality and has attack duties wide. And the stats show that it has a player out wide that provides assists, then just tell me to be wary about their counter attacks. If a team plays standard fluid and has high possession typically, then warn me about how they will try and keep the ball and deny me space. SI have done brilliantly connecting mentality, shape, roles and duties. Unfortunately the ass man advice is still the same from FM12, largely. As far as 2D is concerned, which Manager irl actually has a top down view when he is playing? If this were truly a simulation then that is an exploit. It’s an advantage that we should not be having. I know there are many who are gonna rage at this suggestion, but since this is a discussion, let’s think about this. Cant we have the 2d view only available when we review highlights of the game? It’s a drastic recommendation but it’s certainly more realistic than a top down view no Manager currently has in real life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger666 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Rashidi said: As far as 2D is concerned, which Manager irl actually has a top down view when he is playing? If this were truly a simulation then that is an exploit. It’s an advantage that we should not be having. I know there are many who are gonna rage at this suggestion, but since this is a discussion, let’s think about this. Cant we have the 2d view only available when we review highlights of the game? It’s a drastic recommendation but it’s certainly more realistic than a top down view no Manager currently has in real life. I fail to see how it's an exploit if we're playing against the AI. What exactly are we exploiting? Who are we gaining an advantage over? It's just a view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 24 minutes ago, Tiger666 said: I fail to see how it's an exploit if we're playing against the AI. What exactly are we exploiting? Who are we gaining an advantage over? It's just a view. Like I said if we want it to be a true simulation why have 2D. Remove it altogether. We already have decision making affected by distance, why can’t we take it further and make it a true simulation? In real life does the manager see a 2D view or 3D? 2D is an exploit, I can see every gap and make adjustments to exploit it. I think we should remove the edge completely and level the playing field. I don’t care if It’s vs AI. When I play against another human the 2D screen is a massive advantage. If we want a simulation why go halfway? At least that’s my point of view and we should consider all points of view here as this is a discussion. I am an old school player who plays 2D cos it’s an edge. And this game isn’t just about playing against the AI, we have network and human vs mode too. Let’s not limit this to just AI that would be like baking a cake halfway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooter28 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rashidi said: Like I said if we want it to be a true simulation why have 2D. Remove it altogether. We already have decision making affected by distance, why can’t we take it further and make it a true simulation? In real life does the manager see a 2D view or 3D? 2D is an exploit, I can see every gap and make adjustments to exploit it. I think we should remove the edge completely and level the playing field. I don’t care if It’s vs AI. When I play against another human the 2D screen is a massive advantage. If we want a simulation why go halfway? At least that’s my point of view and we should consider all points of view here as this is a discussion. I am an old school player who plays 2D cos it’s an edge. And this game isn’t just about playing against the AI, we have network and human vs mode too. Let’s not limit this to just AI that would be like baking a cake halfway. Emm its a pc game this true simulation you are saying is a joke to me am afraid but thats your opinion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBKalle Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 3 ore fa, Rashidi ha scritto: SI have done brilliantly connecting mentality, shape, roles and duties. I couldn't disagree more... Those four aspects have turned into an inbred mess of FM-exclusive lingo and intertwined cause-effect dynamics that no amount of better Assman advice or on-field feedback can possibly untangle.. Not to mention it's also AI tactics that have been failing to replicate real-life scenarios, so it goes beyond the average human player's lack of understanding... It's such a brilliant job, not even AI managers are good at FM anymore... About 2D being an exploit, well, it's a matter of opinion. If we're going down the "real-life managers don't have that kind of view" path, neither they have numerical attributes to assess players, nor they can basically run the whole club, from finances to youth team contracts. Nor they instruct their team to play "Very Rigid, Control with a Raumdeuter and a Segundo Volante"... I brought 2D up as an example of a different approach to the graphical rendition of the ME, seeing how much controversy and trobules the 3D has caused, without having brought the huge improvement in terms of football realism and responsiveness. When all we had were dots, we could fill in the blanks, like "maybe the CB tripped or something", while nowadays we can see our CB casually strolling around while the forward he's supposed to mark is 3 meters away and is going to take another one-on-one with the keeper because defending is still terrible. Everything you stated in your first point is true, but how can it be achieved if the graphical representation of the game is so detached from the tactical setup? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackob Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 18 hours ago, RBKalle said: I know it's gonna sound insane, but please bear with me... We've been discussing A LOT about how the ME affects the game and one of the biggest bone of contention is the infamous "visual representation" conundrum. Apparently, plenty of inconsequential and downright absurd stuff we witness while watching a game is more of a visual glitch than an actual "mistake" of the game. Now of course we can't know for sure and we have to take the devs' word. Also there are hardware limitations to take into account. A more realistic and detailed ME would require more powerful hardware, cutting off a sizeable chunk of customers and putting even more strain on systems that already have to process the impressive amount of data required by the management part of FM. So that got me thinking... Wait a minute, other current-gen sports management games don't have an overly refined or graphically taxing graphical engine... Eastside Hockey Manager is 2D, Motorsport Manager is faux 3D, OOTP 18 looks like Championship Manager 2006... I know, I know "but those games don't have to replicate 22 players' actions throughout 90 minutes!!!"... Still, I feel the focus on better animations, more realistic graphics and overall more polished presentation is a bit of a faux problem, whereas huge flaws in terms of basic football dynamics have been present since the very beginning (one rewrite and 20+ patches nonwithstanding). So I'm asking... Shouldn't the main focus be on replicating "realistic" football first, and THEN adding bells and whistles to it? Frankly, I'd rather have 22 "coloured sticks" on a 2D/3D pitch playing RESPONSIVE, realistic football, over a FIFA-like presentation where wide play is either overpowered or totally ineffective (depending on the year), world-class players hit the corner flag with banana-shots once per game, closing down and tight marking are completely off and so on. If the current vision behind the ME hasn't been able to progress at the expected rate, and, as said, one huge rewrite hasn't eradicated some issues, and, arguably, has made them WORSE, probably it'd be worthwhile evaluating a different approach for the next ME, focusing more on WHAT happens, instead of HOW it looks. Not only it'd solve the CPU/GPU power conundrum, but it'd also allow resources to be moved to other areas of the game. Despite SI always stating "we're not FIFA", I can't help but feel that the aesthetics of the ME have become too prominent lately. Time to actually put it on the backburner in favour of getting the TC-to-ME transition more straightforward and streamlined? I dream the day when I'll know that if my fullback is completely lost somewhere, while the opposite winger is ravaging us, it'll be MY FAULT and I'll be immediately able to spot why, instead of it being "a visual representation" of god knows what. Or a coding error... thoughtful and well-reasoned post. Something tells me that you might have been aiming for discussion rather than blunt variations of 'no'? I wish this were the exception, not the rule. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kornflex Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 18 hours ago, Rashidi said: Jokes aside, the graphics match engine for FM18 is still a work in progress Yet, we are still expected to pay full price for the game. I have played CM/FM since the mid 90s and spend thousands of hours in the game. During recent years it seems that a lot of things has been added that is WORK IN PROGRESS. Take the touchline shouts; nobody knew for sure what is was doing, but apparently it would add a boost (?!) of 15 minutes to defense, attacking or creative stats etc. I'm still on FM17 (and NOT going 18) and full backs are still passing back over the goal line for a opposition corner, there are WAY too many offsides in the games (especially if an attacker has the "break offside trap" PPM which just makes it ridiculous - has been broken for years) and DoFs can't make a simple signing even if their lives depended on it. They really should fix (or remove) what's broken, stop adding obscure features and start charging a fair price for what in reality is just DLCs. If this goes on we will soon be able to enchant our trequartistas with soul gems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazRTaylor Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, kornflex said: If this goes on we will soon be able to enchant our trequartistas with soul gems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, kornflex said: Take the touchline shouts; nobody knew for sure what is was doing, but apparently it would add a boost (?!) of 15 minutes to defense, attacking or creative stats etc. I'm sure you mean Attributes, and of course it doesn't do that. It's a touchline shout!?! It alters, like a team talk, your players' mental state. You can see this in the Body Language widget. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altair Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 hace 13 horas, KUBI dijo: If someone decide to stop or going back - this is ok. But if you run a business and if you develop a computer game - there is just one direction. Forward. And this also means you will lose some people, just because they prefer to stay. If you are going to focus only in the 3D it's has to be a BIG step forward because is not at good level right know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 11 minutes ago, kornflex said: Yet, we are still expected to pay full price for the game. I have played CM/FM since the mid 90s and spend thousands of hours in the game. During recent years it seems that a lot of things has been added that is WORK IN PROGRESS. Take the touchline shouts; nobody knew for sure what is was doing, but apparently it would add a boost (?!) of 15 minutes to defense, attacking or creative stats etc. I'm still on FM17 (and NOT going 18) and full backs are still passing back over the goal line for a opposition corner, there are WAY too many offsides in the games (especially if an attacker has the "break offside trap" PPM which just makes it ridiculous - has been broken for years) and DoFs can't make a simple signing even if their lives depended on it. They really should fix (or remove) what's broken, stop adding obscure features and start charging a fair price for what in reality is just DLCs. If this goes on we will soon be able to enchant our trequartistas with soul gems. If you don't like the price, then buy it on sale. Or keep your money in your pocket. You're not forced to buy the game. Which is what you've done anyway, kept your money in your pocket. I'm not you sure can expect them to wholesale permanently lower their prices for what is generally a reasonably priced game (in the UK at least) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbrownsays Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 AS others have said in the days of the 2D graphics stupid stuff (really stupid stuff before patches) always happened. But you filled in the blanks with imagination (imaginary shirt tugs, unseen trips, bobbles in the pitch etc). It is harder to do this with the 3D animations as you just see the players walk in the wrong direction and so on. The ME clearly needs improvement but I suspect that cannot happen realistically without vastly simplifying the whole process. And I am not sure simplifying the game is what the hardcore players really wan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kornflex Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said: If you don't like the price, then buy it on sale. Or keep your money in your pocket. You're not forced to buy the game. Which is what you've done anyway. EXACTLY! I would happily pay full price if i felt it was worth it - as for now it is heavily overpriced. Am I buying CKII DLCs? Yes. Will I buy the new Civ6 DLC? Already done. They are (usually) reasonably priced for DLCs. I know I'm not forced to buy the game (thanks for the clarification). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirajzl Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 2 hours ago, RBKalle said: I couldn't disagree more... Those four aspects have turned into an inbred mess of FM-exclusive lingo and intertwined cause-effect dynamics that no amount of better Assman advice or on-field feedback can possibly untangle.. It's fine in the eyes of someone knowledgeable like Rashidi, but an average user is baffled by the whole thing, to put it mildly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kornflex Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 17 minutes ago, HUNT3R said: It alters, like a team talk, your players' mental state. You can see this in the Body Language widget. And mental state would - to some extent - alter attributes, am I right? Or is motivation just completely irrelevant in sports? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Just now, kornflex said: And mental state would - to some extent - alter attributes, am I right? Or is motivation just completely irrelevant in sports? It can affect their decision making, composure etc indirectly yes, but remember, we're talking very small changes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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