FM14 - New Tactical Elements

[Svenc]

Surely not saying "I'd like you to play as a shadow striker in the first half, then like a false nine..."

Real managers use drawing boards nowadays, sliders could simply be seen as visual representation of a drawing board, this claim for realism is so funny, too many people take this game too seriously.

I still think real football is another thing.

By the way, sliders worked quite well for 20 years, I bet this new system won't last so long.

The sliders were never ever remotely as clear in instructions as drawing instructions on a drawingn board, not a chance. Some were quite abstract in concept themselves (mentality), their combinations made for conundrums, and without help you were asked to backwards translate their effects from match action: At its most convulted, this was akin to giving a player instructions and then later trying to filter out what those were by looking at what he's doing on the pitch. Quite a task, given that attributes, PPMs, general context of a situation as well as the ME framework layed out by SI played a big part in this. Due to lack of documentation, and, I fear, a quite abstract structure that was an inherent part of the system, which no quick reference could really hope to cover, there was widespread confusion about the most important instructions even amongst long-term players. Furthermore, some of the most prominent of posters on these forums had but theories on the more subtle ones in effect.

Sliders, the current setup anyway, have never been a part of the series for 20 years, and I'm personally of the opinion that the only way SI has survived through this was by but the best community guides, which had at least a wider spread understanding of the most important instructions covered (mentality and shape instructions such as RFD), and by making some of the more subtle ones not nearly as drastic in effect as many would think they had on the match action. As such, the fallout of even outright trial&error wasn't as huge, and as experienced players are very good at scouting and squad building, better than the AI, and as having a team of good players means you'll do ok almost regardless, this didn't lead to much more punishment as there might have been.

Now I understand the mourn over the loss of micro-control by some, I really do. However, I recommend reading some of these threads, notice how much the involved posters had been a part of FM by looking at their join dates and reconsider that the slider system was even remotely akin to drawing instruction on a drawing board.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/108695-Ditch-the-quot-mentality-quot-slider-altogether. (this is a real classic, promise, not least because wwfan is later slightly corrected by PaulC himself, causing further confusion – even though I think his explanation of mentality, as good as they come at the core, has been a real eye opener to some. Also, some of the more in-depth posts by PaulC on counter attacks and creative freedom had been a relevation at that time, and though it is apparent from watching a match that he manual was way off on this all along, one of them outright contradicts the official manual to this day)

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/350149-Understanding-Sliders-A-Discussion

In fact, this is right from a foreword of Tactical Theorems 2008, one of the precursors of the Tactics Creator, in which a younger wwfan argues not knowing what exactly the sliders would do would be a good thing. Whilst I agree there needs to be some ambiguity, I fundamentally disagree with the overall quite extreme notion expressed here and how the sliders would cover such ambiguity in a good way. And I'm convinced wwfan has developed a different stance on this throughout the years himself. It's not about sliders per se, but FM has never been set up like, say, this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=txas4kc4UuY

The most common complaint in the forums for FM07 was the ambiguity of the sliders. People complained that they didn't know how they worked, what they did, and the plethora of competing theories didn't help. Indeed, they argued that the competing theories 'proved' that the game was flawed. Some even argued that we shouldn't write theory unless we 'knew' we were right; that is was dangerous to do otherwise. However, does this outlook equate to reality? Yes, there is a UEFA Pro-License for managers which teaches the same theory to all, but do managers really follow the same practices. Can anyone really argue that Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, Benitez and Eriksson share the same management style? All are successful, but all undoubtedly put into practice different theoretical approaches to the art of management.

Not knowing exactly what the sliders do allows us to approach FM in a similar manner. We have to use our intuitive experience to construct a style of play and management we are happy with.

[Cleon]

The sliders were never ever remotely as clear in instructions as drawing instructions on a drawingn board, not a chance. Some were quite abstract in concept themselves (mentality), their combinations made for conundrums, and without help you were asked to backwards translate their effects from match action: At its most convulted, this was akin to giving a player instructions and then later trying to filter out what those were by looking at what he's doing on the pitch. Quite a task, given that attributes, PPMs, general context of a situation as well as the ME framework layed out by SI played a big part in this. Due to lack of documentation, and, I fear, a quite abstract structure that was an inherent part of the system, which no quick reference could really hope to cover, there was widespread confusion about the most important instructions even amongst long-term players. Furthermore, some of the most prominent of posters on these forums had but theories on the more subtle ones in effect.

Sliders, the current setup anyway, have never been a part of the series for 20 years, and I'm personally of the opinion that the only way SI has survived through this was by but the best community guides, which had at least a wider spread understanding of the most important instructions covered (mentality and shape instructions such as RFD), and by making some of the more subtle ones not nearly as drastic in effect as many would think they had on the match action. As such, the fallout of even outright trial&error wasn't as huge, and as experienced players are very good at scouting and squad building, better than the AI, and as having a team of good players means you'll do ok almost regardless, this didn't lead to much more punishment as there might have been.

Now I understand the mourn over the loss of micro-control by some, I really do. However, I recommend reading some of these threads, notice how much the involved posters had been a part of FM by looking at their join dates and reconsider that the slider system was even remotely akin to drawing instruction on a drawing board.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/108695-Ditch-the-quot-mentality-quot-slider-altogether. (this is a real classic, promise, not least because wwfan is later corrected by PaulC himself, causing further confusion – even though I think his explanation of mentality, as good as they come at the core, has been a real eye opener to some)

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/349911-Fascinating-article-on-Mentality.

In fact, this is right from a foreword of Tactical Theorems 2008, one of the precursors of the Tactics Creator, in which a younger wwfan argues not knowing what exactly the sliders would do would be a good thing. Whilst I agree there needs to be some ambiguity, I fundamentally disagree with the overall quite extreme notion expressed here and how the sliders would cover such ambiguity in a good way. And I'm convinced wwfan has developed a different stance on this throughout the years himself. It's not about sliders per se, but FM has never been set up like, say, this:

I've been on the SI forums since they existed (this was originally my 2nd account) and these issues have plagued the forum all those years. I think that speaks volumes about how people misunderstood the sliders and what they actually did and how much control they gave you. Every new edition always brought up the same questions and more often than not even the same users posting the same questions they had answered the year before, because they couldn't quite get their head around it.

Only very few people understood every single slider. I could probably count the people on here who did on one hand and that would be including wwfan and PaulC in that. That's how badly and poor the sliders are/were.

I'm not sure I should be saying this but I will anyways....On older versions even while beta testing, people who have been part of the beta process for 7+ years still got confused about the sliders and still didn't really understand them. Which is understandable because of the poor documentation, this has always been SI's fault due to the lack of it.

I hope they do proper documentation for the new module though as it will stamp out a lot of the issues users have if SI properly explain things rather than needing the community to provide the answers.

[Svenc]

Only very few people understood every single slider. I could probably count the people on here who did on one hand and that would be including wwfan and PaulC in that. That's how badly and poor the sliders are/were.

AFAIR, wwfan once posted he needed be corrected by PaulC on some things himself when he was asked to conceptualize the first iteration of the Creator. I mean, in the words quoted above he is pretty much admitting that after he had spend hundreds of hours on the ME if not more throughout the years, by the end of 2007 he still didn't know exactly what each of them did. I agree about his notion about necessary ambiguity in general, not all being completely black and white, but not to the extent in which the sliders represent them. Such ambiguity shouldn't come from ambiguity in instructions, but from the player instructed not being a robot to control, but a, well, football player to influence depending on his individual traits and match context in general.

[Cleon]

AFAIR, wwfan once posted he needed be corrected by PaulC on some things himself when he was asked to conceptualize the first iteration of the Creator. I mean, in the words quoted above he is pretty much admitting that after spending hundreds of hours on the ME throughout the years, by the end of 2007 he still didn't know exactly what each of them did. I agree about his notion about necessary ambiguity in general, not all being completely black and white, but not to the extent in which the sliders represent them. Such ambiguity shouldn't come from ambiguity in instructions, but from the player not being a robot to control, but to influence depending on his individual traits and match context in general.

A great post and a brilliant way of putting it

[TacticalGenius]

I've only played FM since 2010 so the TC is all I've known. Every tactic I've ever created and had success with has had almost no interaction with sliders, except for my strikerless 5-2-3-0 where I changed the AMC to work more like an attacker by tweaking his role. With them being removed for 2014, and the addition of new roles that should fill the gaps in the current selection, finally the simulation is simulating reality.

[papamogl]

In my opinion there was nothing wrong with having both the TC AND sliders. The TC is great to set up an initial frame, but the sliders let you see what exactly the player instructions are and refine them. Plus they give the ability to create your own roles to a certain extent. We'll have to wait and see whether the new TC only system gives you the same amount of flexibility.

As for the sliders not being a realistic simulation: I don't dig that. Sliders can be seen as a refined system to tell an individual player what you want him to do. In real life coaching you wouldn't just tell a player: "Ok, you're a false nine. And you're an inside winger, and you're a wingback." and they'd know how you want them to play. Instead you'd tell an individual player "Ok, I want you to press agressively when we don't have the ball. When we have, look around for space. When on ball, try through balls when you spot a chance, otherwise try short and simple passes." And that's exactly what the sliders let you do. The TC, less so.

[Dark Demon]

All I've ever used the sliders for was to reduce 'long shots' to rarely and maybe have two players swap positions, other than that it's very easy to play the game just using the TC and shouts.

[Svenc]

In my opinion there was nothing wrong with having both the TC AND sliders. The TC is great to set up an initial frame, but the sliders let you see what exactly the player instructions are and refine them. Plus they give the ability to create your own roles to a certain extent. We'll have to wait and see whether the new TC only system gives you the same amount of flexibility.

Not a huge problem per se perhaps, but as both ways of playing are usually far apart, with the TC trying to shift the game away from micro tweaking to holistic and dynamic management and decision making, it means compromise for both. I very much agree with Cleon about her notion of how the sliders to a large extent gave the vast majority of FM players a false sense of flexibility and control anyways. And that's only talking the UI. In terms of internal ME workings focusing on clearly defined concepts still free to be tweaked and combined in a ton of ways means Paul Collyer can shift his focus on those, rather than slider combinations he cannot possibly anticipate whilst still providing a solid ME experience within it all. Klick this for some food for thought. It would be premature for me to applaude this decision, but hopefully it will pay off the way he is hinting at here. Combined that'd be win-win for most FM players in my opinion, really.

As for the sliders not being a realistic simulation: I don't dig that. Sliders can be seen as a refined system to tell an individual player what you want him to do. In real life coaching you wouldn't just tell a player: "Ok, you're a false nine. And you're an inside winger, and you're a wingback." and they'd know how you want them to play. Instead you'd tell an individual player "Ok, I want you to press agressively when we don't have the ball. When we have, look around for space. When on ball, try through balls when you spot a chance, otherwise try short and simple passes." And that's exactly what the sliders let you do. The TC, less so.

The counter argument was provided by Paul Collyer too a couple months ago in this thread.

My problem with humans creating customised roles is that they will always be the pioneers, whereas FM is a football world where you are incidental rather than the world being incidental to you. At least that is the ethos we started from back in the day. Its the same reason I have never supported a true set piece editor.

That's a philosophy and stance that's all over the place: AI managers are given all the means of interaction that you are given, they don't treat you any differently than their colleagues (unless you've developed a love/hate relationship with them), they engage in press conferences just as you (which are recorded in their history tab) and may storm out of them even when pushed, they have private conversations with their players (a bug in FM 2012 caused them to be visible to you in the conversation history screen), the match engine doesn't distinguish between human and AI players, and generally things happen around you, rather than you being the center of it all.

In theory you could start a save, not apply to any job and just watch the fun and football world unfold. It doesn't rely on you, you're just a part of it no more than any AI manager. You're sacked? Next! The world of FM just moves on, and you're replaced by someone else. The slider tweaks have been one of the few areas in which this deviated from, as there is no way an AI could cope with so many possible combinations. Whereas in FM iterations of old it used to be pretty stalwart tactics it utilized at given situations (such as the 4-2-4 global attacking mentality systems in attempts to get back into a game), ever since the TC it utilizes most options a human player using the TC is given, albeit not as sophisticated as the human player can do, mind. But the same tools nonetheless.

[RTHerringbone]

As for the sliders not being a realistic simulation: I don't dig that. Sliders can be seen as a refined system to tell an individual player what you want him to do. In real life coaching you wouldn't just tell a player: "Ok, you're a false nine. And you're an inside winger, and you're a wingback." and they'd know how you want them to play. Instead you'd tell an individual player "Ok, I want you to press agressively when we don't have the ball. When we have, look around for space. When on ball, try through balls when you spot a chance, otherwise try short and simple passes." And that's exactly what the sliders let you do. The TC, less so.

But how is that realistic? Changing a notch on a slider can never replicate the processes a manager goes through to encourage a player to do more or less of something.

As far as I can tell, the Tactics Creator has evolved, so now the Player Instructions will let us affect a players Pressing, Movement, Creativity and Passing Style - all that you want.

We couldn't do that before solely in TC, and whilst we can't change these facets on a 1-20 scale, were the differences between 1 and 4, 9 and 13, 15 and 18 really that acute in the first place?

[higgins]

There are some detailed posts here that clearly show excitement about sliders sudden death, I really think there's no reasons to get so excited, the TC is a nice tool but it's a simplification that doesn't allow to develop every football style.

It set limits, narrow limits I'd say, it could be good for developers not for the virtual managers.

Just to make a small example, will the new system let me play very wide but employing a really deep defensive line or vice versa?

[Cleon]

There are some detailed posts here that clearly show excitement about sliders sudden death, I really think there's no reasons to get so excited, the TC is a nice tool but it's a simplification that doesn't allow to develop every football style.

It set limits, narrow limits I'd say, it could be good for developers not for the virtual managers.

The same could be said about sliders. After all it all shared the same ME and the TC was just the hub for all the sliders, so to say it is limited shows a lack of understanding and what the TC is all about. You can create any single style that sliders allowed with the use of roles/duties and shouts. If you think its a simplification then you couldn't be more mistaken. The TC is quite sophisticated and allows for thousands of different combinations just like the sliders allow.

Again though, you talk as if every single notch on the sliders made a difference and you'd be mistaken thinking that and shows how little you actually know about a system you are arguing was fine.

[TacticalGenius]

I think the bottom line is that this is a game that simulates reality. In order for that to stay true, the sliders had to go. I'm surprised it has taken this long.

[higgins]

The same could be said about sliders. After all it all shared the same ME and the TC was just the hub for all the sliders, so to say it is limited shows a lack of understanding and what the TC is all about. You can create any single style that sliders allowed with the use of roles/duties and shouts. If you think its a simplification then you couldn't be more mistaken. The TC is quite sophisticated and allows for thousands of different combinations just like the sliders allow.

Again though, you talk as if every single notch on the sliders made a difference and you'd be mistaken thinking that and shows how little you actually know about a system you are arguing was fine.

I know the system well enough to know the TC is far from being sophisticated, we could say it's at an embryonal stage, no more than a template, I'm sure it could evolve and improve in the future, for now sliders could coexist with the TC.

Pretending the sliders are gone for realism reasons is simply a lie, a big lie; by the way, if your only against the sliders argument is that you know the system better than me I'd say it's a quite poor argument.

[Cleon]

I know the system well enough to know the TC is far from being sophisticated, we could say it's at an embryonal stage, no more than a template, I'm sure it could evolve and improve in the future, for now sliders could coexist with the TC.

Pretending the sliders are gone for realism reasons is simply a lie, a big lie; by the way, if your only against the sliders argument is that you know the system better than me I'd say it's a quite poor argument.

See you keep saying the same things but don't back up your claims with facts or you avoid questions and don't answer them when pushed. I never said I understood anything better than you either. I said if you think the sliders work like you think they did then YOU don't understand them as well as you thought. That has nothing to do with me knowing the game better and never once was that suggested.

I've also never said sliders were gone for realism either. I even did a post on the last page explaining why they'd gone which you seem to have forgotten about.

And the TC is much more than a template, again you seem to underestimate it after never really using it. I know you never used it much though because you posted about it in another thread not that long ago. And this is really telling from your replies.

I'll leave this discussion now though as you've demonstrated you can't come up with a valid or logical reason to put your argument across. You can't even explain your own argument so its pointless carrying this on with you. You've ignored every single direction question that myself and others have asked you. I think you don't really truly know why you are arguing anymore:brock: I'm happy to carry on discussing with others though.

[higgins]

See you keep saying the same things but don't back up your claims with facts or you avoid questions and don't answer them when pushed. I never said I understood anything better than you either. I said if you think the sliders work like you think they did then YOU don't understand them as well as you thought. That has nothing to do with me knowing the game better and never once was that suggested.

I've also never said sliders were gone for realism either. I even did a post on the last page explaining why they'd gone which you seem to have forgotten about.

And the TC is much more than a template, again you seem to underestimate it after never really using it. I know you never used it much though because you posted about it in another thread not that long ago. And this is really telling from your replies.

I'll leave this discussion now though as you've demonstrated you can't come up with a valid or logical reason to put your argument across. You can't even explain your own argument so its pointless carrying this on with you. I'm happy to carry on discussing with others though.

All the tactics I made in the last two-three years were made using the TC then tweaked with sliders, everything is very well documented on my blog, you should pay more attention.

I don't like too much shouts and even if I learnt how to use them I realized they're quite limited and without enough flexibility, talking about people who doesn't answer directly to questions I'm still waiting an answer to my question in post #110.

[Cleon]

All the tactics I made in the last two-three years were made using the TC than tweaked with sliders, everything is very well documented on my blog, you should pay more attention.

I don't like too much shouts and even if I learnt how to use them I realized they're quite limited and without enough flexibility, talking about people who doesn't answer directly to questions I'm still waiting an answer to my question in post #110.

You edited the question in after I replied to that question, so how would I know you'd asked something when you edited it after I responded? But anyways I'll answer,

Just to make a small example, will the new system let me play very wide but employing a really deep defensive line or vice versa?

Why wouldn't you be able to do that? You do realise though that D-line is only read without the ball, width is only read with the ball?

The fact you alter sliders means you don't use the TC, you use it for a template only but that's by your own choice and not because the TC is template only. The way you utilise it makes it that way. The TC is much more than just a simplified template.

You've already made it clear though that you've made your mind up about the new module and dislike it before even trying it and seeing how it functions. So even when FM14 is out you'll hate it because minds made up already.

[higgins]

You edited the question in after I replied to that question, so how would I know you'd asked something when you edited it after I responded? But anyways I'll answer,

Why wouldn't you be able to do that? You do realise though that D-line is only read without the ball, width is only read with the ball?

The fact you alter sliders means you don't use the TC, you use it for a template only but that's by your own choice and not because the TC is template only. The way you utilise it makes it that way. The TC is much more than just a simplified template.

You've already made it clear though that you've made your mind up about the new module and dislike it before even trying it and seeing how it functions. So even when FM14 is out you'll hate it because minds made up already.

Once again you didn't answer, could you show me how to obtain this using the TC only (just an example of course)?

https://www.monosnap.com/image/fmu1939p9Y5ZetaWyIaJ8nVjM

[Cleon]

Once again you didn't answer, could you show me how to obtain this using the TC only (just an example of course)?

https://www.monosnap.com/image/fmu1939p9Y5ZetaWyIaJ8nVjM

Play wider and drop deeper shout will do that for you, but you already know that as you said you understood the shouts.

Are you going to answer some of the direct questions you got, or are you just going to avoid every single one and just be selective?

[RTHerringbone]

Once again you didn't answer, could you show me how to obtain this using the TC only (just an example of course)?

https://www.monosnap.com/image/fmu1939p9Y5ZetaWyIaJ8nVjM

As (I'm sure) you are aware, this is not possible on FM13 within the Team Instructions confines of the Tactics Creator, unless using Shouts.

[higgins]

As (I'm sure) you are aware, this is not possible on FM13 within the Team Instructions confines of the Tactics Creator, unless using Shouts.

Perfect! If this is not possible (and I don't think that a combo of shouts could help here, at least in an intuitive and immediate way) it means that the TC is limited and it can't replicate every tactical style the sliders could allow.

[Cleon]

Perfect! If this is not possible (and I don't think that a combo of shouts could help here, at least in an intuitive and immediate way) it means that the TC is limited and it can't replicate every tactical style the sliders could allow.

He said unless using shout which do allow you to play that way. So again stop being selective as it can be replicated.

[RTHerringbone]

Perfect! If this is not possible (and I don't think that a combo of shouts could help here, at least in an intuitive and immediate way) it means that the TC is limited and it can't replicate every tactical style the sliders could allow.

I disagree with your point about Shouts - what is not intuitive or immediate about saying "Drop Deeper" and "Play Wider"? That's not even clutching at straws to be fair on your part.

And it's a slightly cheap reaction about the state of the TC in FM13 - remember, this thread is about FM14 and what we know so far.

What we know so far is that Player Instructions have evolved to the point where the TC is now able to directly influence player movement, passing, tackling, creative freedom - everything that sliders do, in fact.

What we don't know is what will happen with Team Instructions.

Above all, to exhibit triumphalism about what you perceive to be upcoming flaws in a game you love is a bit strange, no?

Especially so considering none of us have played it as it isn't out for weeks / months!

[higgins]

Play wider and drop deeper shout will do that for you, but you already know that as you said you understood the shouts.

Are you going to answer some of the direct questions you got, or are you just going to avoid every single one and just be selective?

Wrong answer, but you could try again.

Now pay attention, how could say that without knowing my starting TC point?

Anyway it's not like you say, in the example I made using the "drop deeper" and the "play wider" shouts I changed from this scenario:

https://www.monosnap.com/image/Qn4qwTAKXcKOSjg1ew9M1Ocfp

to this one:

https://www.monosnap.com/image/VKzC4pgYkmAkSxaVTsI6lFBlX

as you could easily see we're not even close to my original settings (post #100)

But that's another issue, using the play wider shout I will focus play down both flanks and I don't want that, now please don't tell me I could use the exploit the middle shout cause it will alter other things I don't want to change.

[rune_star]

"Ok, you're a false nine. And you're an inside winger, and you're a wingback." and they'd know how you want them to play. Instead you'd tell an individual player "Ok, I want you to press agressively when we don't have the ball. When we have, look around for space. When on ball, try through balls when you spot a chance, otherwise try short and simple passes." And that's exactly what the sliders let you do. The TC, less so.

Surely this statement is meant as a gross exaggeration! I mean, really, really big exaggeration...

This entire thread is becoming more and more religious and even though I'd hate to rekindle the fire, I have to point out that we have individual instructions for just the above mentioned purpose! From the sound and looks of it, we'll even have more when the game acutally goes live, not to mention the so far 'secret' in-match shouts which none of us have even seen? Since most of the current in-match shouts are now moved to prematch selection, wouldn't it be fair to assume they've put something else in there instead?

And how about we just waited untill we could actually see how the new (and old) roles actually perform in the ME before we pass judgement. If it's true that Paul C and his team are now coping differently with the roles (and duties), maybe we should give them a chance?

Again, saying that sliders gave you a 'realistic' feeling of being a football manager, then SURELY giving contextual actual footballing messages will only improve that? Yes, it sucks for computer players to have many years of hard earned knowledge broken down (myself included), but as for the realism in 1-20 notches...

When I have a DR, I want to tell him to play as an attacking wingback since this a footballing term/role most pro footballers should know about, with lots of runs forward to harass opposition midfield and defence. But since he's really bad at crossing, I'll tell him to not cross so much, but instead make for an inwards run. If opposition have a realy lame DL, maybe I'll tell him to go all the way to the byline anyway to draw attention from my rightsided forward/winger. In both cases, I'll instruct him not try anything too fancy with the ball as his skills are not that great. All of the above, and MANY many more individually strategic options are possible within the sliderless system. And as Cleon just mentioned, if you think that every single notch of the sliders made a difference in the past, well then... You would never ever be able to tell a real life player to run forward with EXACTLY x amount of emphasis! Player suitability for every position will come much more into play also, as I predict you'll have to look even harder for just the right kind of player to fulfill your tactical views on how your DR is to play. Not to mention the mental stuff... talking your players into killer machines up to match-day (Mourinho?) might also interfere more... all in all, from my perspective a much more 'wholesome' true-to-life managerial simulation

In the end we'll just have to see... very excited for more news on tactics, analysis, training, scouting, teamtalks and so on.

[Noel Gallagher]

Personally I am glad that the sliders are being phased out.

I have never publicly complained about them, and I've never had difficulty using them, but they aren't realistic. I much preferred it on CM when you had 3 player mentality options of 'Defend', 'Normal' and 'Attack'. It was self explanatory and very easy to understand. I never really understood the need to have a scale of how attacking and how defensive a player should be. How these instructions are carried out should be based on the players attributes and personality.

I fully embrace the TC and feel it is a far more realistic way of implementing tactics. It is also a lot easier for the casual gamer to understand. The new tactical system for FM14 sounds like it is going to place a bit more onus on player attributes and personality instead of the micro-tweaking of sliders - which I for one applaud and think is an excellent decision.

[TOUGHGUY]

You can create any single style that sliders allowed with the use of roles/duties and shouts.

You can? What about if you want to play even deeper than with the drop deeper shout. Or a bit higher than with that shout but not as high as by default. Or are there only three depths of defense?

[higgins]

You can? What about if you want to play even deeper than with the drop deeper shout. Or a bit higher than with that shout but not as high as by default. Or are there only three depths of defense?

A good question, the example I made shows that you can't.

[TacticalGenius]

Personally I am glad that the sliders are being phased out.

I have never publicly complained about them, and I've never had difficulty using them, but they aren't realistic. .……… How these instructions are carried out should be based on the players attributes and personality.

I fully embrace the TC and feel it is a far more realistic way of implementing tactics. It is also a lot easier for the casual gamer to understand. The new tactical system for FM14 sounds like it is going to place a bit more onus on player attributes and personality instead of the micro-tweaking of sliders - which I for one applaud and think is an excellent decision.

I agree with this.

And so far all we've seen is the way player instructions have changed. Quite how team instructions will be dealt with under the new system is yet to be discovered...

[rune_star]

The new tactical system for FM14 sounds like it is going to place a bit more onus on player attributes and personality instead of the micro-tweaking of sliders - which I for one applaud and think is an excellent decision.

My point exactly! Scouting and finding just the right players, other than having highscores in 'the usual suspects' will become even more important, just as in real life! And if you can't get the guy with ALL the stats, you'll have to make do with what you can get. Nothing too new there, but this around, maybe you'll have to look more into the players personality and mental attributes? The crazy adventurous guy with lowish off the ball might be better than the composed ultra conservative high-ish off the ball player you might've chosen prior to FM14? Sounds like a great challenge to me

[Noel Gallagher]

You can? What about if you want to play even deeper than with the drop deeper shout. Or a bit higher than with that shout but not as high as by default. Or are there only three depths of defense?

In response to this I don't think it should be possible to state an exact position from where your defensive line sits. There has to be an element of this that is determined by the players themselves.

It is too unrealistic to be able to expect to place players in the exact position you want them.

[RTHerringbone]

A good question, the example I made shows that you can't.

How many defensive lines do you consider there to be in real life football? Genuine question.

I think there is a high, a low and a medium block, but I am influenced quite a bit by Zonal Marking.

[higgins]

How many defensive lines do you consider there to be in real life football? Genuine question.

I think there is a high, a low and a medium block, but I am influenced quite a bit by Zonal Marking.

I could agree with you about the 3 d-line but who says I can't play using a deep defensive line combined with a wide asset or vice versa?

Did you see my example? Did you realize shouts are not so effective as a sliders substitute?

That said, it is true we're talking without knowing everything about FM14, like you said, nonetheless the debate is worthwhile imo.

[RTHerringbone]

I could agree with you about the 3 d-line but who says I can't play using a deep defensive line combined with a wide asset or vice versa?

Did you see my example? Did you realize shouts are not so effective as a sliders substitute?

That said, it is true we're talking without knowing everything about FM14, like you said, nonetheless the debate is worthwhile imo.

I saw the examples, but again they are really bogged down in the expectations of the past, and are not forward thinking.

Yes, your examples prove that the Shouts do not give the degrees of choice that sliders do - that is without doubt.

However, you have just accepted that maybe there are three defensive lines, and not twenty.

How many widths do you perceive there to be? Twenty? No, I'd argue that again, there are three.

With that in mind, and referencing your examples again, can you begin to agree that actually, whilst sliders give more options, they are false options?

Should there be 20*20 options for Defensive Line and Width, or actually, when all is said and done, isn't 3*3 more in keeping with real football?

[higgins]

I saw the examples, but again they are really bogged down in the expectations of the past, and are not forward thinking.

Yes, your examples prove that the Shouts do not give the degrees of choice that sliders do - that is without doubt.

However, you have just accepted that maybe there are three defensive lines, and not twenty.

How many widths do you perceive there to be? Twenty? No, I'd argue that again, there are three.

With that in mind, and referencing your examples again, can you begin to agree that actually, whilst sliders give more options, they are false options?

Should there be 20*20 options for Defensive Line and Width, or actually, when all is said and done, isn't 3*3 more in keeping with real football?

Why should we be limited to 3*3? Is there a reason? Why not 7*7? This is not realism, it's a simplification, life is much more complex. A better ME could handle well these situations.

By the way, always referring to my example (but tons of other scenarios come to mind) we're not even in a 3*3 situation but in a 3*2 or 2*2 as we can't reach a deep defensive line starting from the original TC settings.

Is it realistic?

No.

Is it any fun?

Not for me.

[RTHerringbone]

That's cool. Opinion are opinions, and ours differ.

To me, you appeared to accept the notion that in real life football, there are three defensive lines and not twenty.

Football Manager is a football management simulation, and so arguably if it ends up having just three defensive lines, it is more realistic than having twenty.

I'm pleased that our discussion has made you consider that maybe a lesser number than 20*20 is acceptable.

Let's wait and see what we get when FM14 comes out. I personally would be happy with maybe 5 options on a scale for each Team Setting, but our expectations seem to differ, and again that is fine.

I maintain that my reduced expectations are more in keeping with real football, and therefore that the TC is more realistic than sliders.

[Svenc]

Kinda moot to argue about team instructions such as d-line and width when nobody knows yet what they look like in the overhaul. Fair point by higgins, but there's likely a reason why, say, SI haven't got rid of the sliders seasons ago already. We know that roles are much more customizable, and hopefully the finite instructions we can give show better than the unlimited instructions players mistook for more control – sometimes simply because they understood them to be much more "at least theirs" simply because they had tweaked sliders themselves rather than going with a dynamic system still confused with static templates by some*. But we haven't seen any of team instructions yet.

The TC was first introduced half a decade ago for FM 2010 in 2009. That's almost five years and a revamp before SI even considered to let the mess confusing almost the entirety of its player base go – whether they had to face the fallout of not 100% understanding the sliders or no thanks to some of them being more subtle, and good players making teams perform and carving open space themselves due to their superior skill almost no matter what to an extent.

* Picking up from here, Let's take a look at the forward positions: even as things are now, we have strategy * philosphy * roles * duties * modifiers (shouts, team modifiers) slider combinations, and that is for one of the forward slots in isolation. The combinations may not be "your own", but they change as soon as you alter something, and if you worry along those lines, with their dynamics, they're then rather nobody's combinations than somebody else's, actually. Their usage, however is based on an interpretation. If your interpretation differed vastly from the TC, there is a good chance it has been off all along. Another thing that is hard to accept is that you might have been wrong on some instructions all along, and rather pretend: "That's not my interpretation! I'm not going to accept that and refuse." I know that from back then when the TC was announced, which I firstly thought to be a cheap workaround for a documentation proper that never was. Of course, I was wrong. But it took a while and good wee hours of giving it a go to realize how wrong I was. That's not saying the TC wouldn't have many limitations, it has, btw.

At the very least optionally, there was always going to be a point where real-life football logics had to be conceptualized, as firstly the AI would have been stuck in its fairly static global attacking mentality battle ram tactics forever. And secondly as FM else had become micro management hell. For every single tweak, no matter how small, there is a likelyhood you have to tweak all eleven players on the pitch individually, at worst, multiple sliders each at once. As such, dynamic decision making, in particular in match, in classic mode often consists of players picking one of the two, perhaps three tactics they have saved, probably juggling around with some team sliders such as time wasting ("I'll slot it here, looks about ok."), done. And then some tactics discussions of old for me are almost unbearable to read now personally. In each of those, no matter how well worded, lingers the question of: "What does this slider do exactly, and how do I allign it to get the best of it?" There's a kind of thinking that for many never materialized, as simply getting to grips with basic instructions as they were was a challenge. Nowadays posts can look a tad more sophisticated in terms of actual "tactics debate", rather than getting "lost in slideration". To better that, SI need to still better their official documentation though.

The TC, exactly as we know it, is done for anyway. Let's give it a look when the reworked tactics UI arrives. I mean, a real look, not dismissing it out of spite, as many had done for the TC. A tool still mistaken as a collection of static role templates when roles are but one concept in its dynamic structure. And as a nice tool to have – for beginners that is, when the wizard is but one part of it and by evidence even long-term players screwed mightily up using it. There's a reason for wwfan's "Twelve step playing guide", after all.

[wwfan]

For what it's worth, the TC is always relativistic in its settings. If you play a defensive mentality, you'll have a lower d-line and narrower width, because players are naturally trying to protect rather than exploit space. You can decrease or increase the d-line and width by a significant degree with the adjustments and the shouts, but you can't maximise these variations because the relative requirements of the strategy prevents it. However, within your strategic choice, you can play much deeper and much wider if you wish, just not with control to the nth degree.

I'm pretty confident SI will be making the TC somewhat more flexible, so people can add even more variation within these relative constraints.

[higgins]

For what it's worth, the TC is always relativistic in its settings. If you play a defensive mentality, you'll have a lower d-line and narrower width, because players are naturally trying to protect rather than exploit space. You can decrease or increase the d-line and width by a significant degree with the adjustments and the shouts, but you can't maximise these variations because the relative requirements of the strategy prevents it. However, within your strategic choice, you can play much deeper and much wider if you wish, just not with control to the nth degree.

I'm pretty confident SI will be making the TC somewhat more flexible, so people can add even more variation within these relative constraints.

That would be what I was asking for.

[kandersson]

I personally like the fact that sliders are gone, it should make tactics more fluid and realistic.

My biggest fear: players roles are now the most important aspect of a tactic, and I have to say I don't always understand/agree with SI Games ideas and opinions about roles/tactical concepts (which tend to be very British concepts). Trequartista is quite a different role in my mind for example... and all the new roles will surely add more specialization and variety, but might also generate confusion (I appreciate the expalanations in this thread, but at the end of the day a Regista IS exactly a deep-lying playmaker at least in Italian and the Enganche is simply put an advanced playmaker, which by the way is a trequartista in Italian though Trequartista has a slightly different meaning in FM...)

I'd like to see less conventional brands of football being more successful in FM14, like for example a South American style: less pressing, slower tempo, deeper defensive line while still playing a very attacking, possession-oriented and flamboyant football, which is something quite hard to achieve in FM in my experience.

[Svenc]

I know this is a little extreme, and I'm convinced that all the reasonable and intelligent men and women in this thread utilize instructions in FM more sensibly. But whilst it might be a little excessive, I've just seen this: http://s14.directupload.net/images/130909/8hkp6zhf.png It's impossible to tell really what his individual player instructions are exactly, but the information that he's utilizing everything trial&error and willy nilly can be taken from what is shown in this picture.

Classic example: User initially started out with the TC, wasn't satisfied with the results (he explicitly stated such) and rather opted to force his own interpretations as well as own "logics" onto the game. Aditionally he reportedly gifted all the players who are on "support duty" (here marked with an "U", which is German for "Unterstützen") with "runs from deep" often, meaning he doesn't have a healthy structure and shape, but the opposite, he is opening up himselves for counter attacks a plenty and compresses attacking space. One alarming thing is that due to the sheer quality of the players, this doesn't show as much in the league (with the gulf in quality in the league, it is only the one realistic rival, Barcelona, that is topping him). That is except for the wildly random losses which he cannot explain for himself: losing 0-3 at a second division team in the Cup, for instance. The most alarming thing is that this is a player who has been around for years, and has many thousand forum posts under his belt. He also despite multiple replies and suggestions is barely questioned about his dubious decisions, if not on these boards. :-( Now even without the sliders, his shape would likely still look like that as soon as he found out that the duties he picks are linked to runs. But hopefully SI will take the chance now that parts of the official manual are drawn obsolete and provide some better documentation. They can't possibly cover basic football knowledge, but at least a few basic guidelines which are explained why they would be worth considering would go a long way.

[yonko]

This discussion has gone in all sorts of directions and it is interesting to read everyone's posts.

I just hope that FM14 offers us some way of visualization of the differences in instructions and we don't have to rely just on in-game descriptions. I want to see for example what is the difference in instructions between a DLP and Regista or between Half Back and regular DM.....before seeing the playing behavior on the field in the 3d match. That is what the sliders served me.

Another thing, what if on FM14 none of the player's roles and personal shouts make one of my players play the way I want him to play within my team/system? What options do I have then? That is why I'm hoping future videos reveal more of the tactical options we would have available.

EDIT: I just looked at the video from Miles again and I noticed that Shadow Striker role is available only for the AMC position, while Regista is only available for DMC position. Am I seeing this correctly?

[Svenc]

Seeing as there are role modifiers for closing down, tackling, et all I fully support that at least there needs a point of reference so that you know where you start from. This obviously won't and needn't be sliders, but there should be outlined how the role is supposed to behave in terms of closing down, tackling, etc. right there. It probably is already in the game, who knows?

Speaking of which, as for the explanation of roles in general: Giving a popular example of the role (or other concepts, really) in real-life football could also help. The addendum and main documents of Tactical Theorems '10 made information immediately more accessible by linking to real-life players and managers. Even in the descriptions of popular formations and philosophies there were references to the real world of football. Kind of like this: http://s14.directupload.net/file/d/3376/p4922dr5_png.htm

[hursty2]

In my opinion these changes will allow players true personalities and traits to shine in the match engine, giving each team and tactic a greater sense of individuality.

Sliders allowed you to micro control players and teams, which kind of limited the way of play on the pitch.

[hursty2]

I've got a longish post written up and it won't let me post nor edit my previous one!

EDIT: I keep getting a forbidden error, even after I have typed it all up and just posted instead of C+P it.

[hursty2]

Also, as an actual footballer you get instructions off of your manager and it is up to you to interpret them and decide how to put them into action.

Recently, I was playing left back and the manager was moaning at me because I kept pushing too far forward and I was getting too close to our winger. He told me to hold my run, so that the winger had an option further back, giving me more time on the ball. In FM this would be interpreted as a FB(S) at a guess, whilst the winger would be a W(A). Other than that though how would I tell myself to play this way in FM?

The new system has an instruction 'Hold Position' and imo that is the one to use in this situation.

As an example for passing tendencies, I was told that I should look inside short to the central midfielder or winger that has come inside and if those two weren't on, I should play a diagonal ball into the corner. However, this is where a problem for myself came up. I am right footed but I can use my left foot well, although naturally I bring the ball onto my right foot to play the ball across my body. This leads to the first option being down the line and not where I am 'supposed' to play the ball, or opening my body coming inside and running the risk of being closed down.

These instructions on the new system would be 'Short Passes' and 'Fewer Risky Passes' or would it? If my FM self see's a short risky pass will I play the ball forward across the pitch or is that classes as a risky pass? Or is that a safe pass as it gets me out of trouble?

[hursty2]

There are also instances when I am told to get it to the feet of the striker as quick as possible in order for him to hold it up. I assume that an instruction of 'Direct Passes' and Target Man into feet will do this.

The point I am trying to make is that would all of this previously have been covered under mentality or another slider? If so, the new way of instructing players to do things is more realistic from a players point of view because these are the sort of instructions you get off managers, albeit worded differently.

Sorry for the posts.

[higgins]

I've got a longish post written up and it won't let me post nor edit my previous one!

EDIT: I keep getting a forbidden error, even after I have typed it all up and just posted instead of C+P it.

I had a similar problem yesterday.

[higgins]

Kinda moot to argue about team instructions such as d-line and width when nobody knows yet what they look like in the overhaul. Fair point by higgins, but there's likely a reason why, say, SI haven't got rid of the sliders seasons ago already. We know that roles are much more customizable, and hopefully the finite instructions we can give show better than the unlimited instructions players mistook for more control – sometimes simply because they understood them to be much more "at least theirs" simply because they had tweaked sliders themselves rather than going with a dynamic system still confused with static templates by some*. But we haven't seen any of team instructions yet.

The TC was first introduced half a decade ago for FM 2010 in 2009. That's almost five years and a revamp before SI even considered to let the mess confusing almost the entirety of its player base go – whether they had to face the fallout of not 100% understanding the sliders or no thanks to some of them being more subtle, and good players making teams perform and carving open space themselves due to their superior skill almost no matter what to an extent.

* Picking up from here, Let's take a look at the forward positions: even as things are now, we have strategy * philosphy * roles * duties * modifiers (shouts, team modifiers) slider combinations, and that is for one of the forward slots in isolation. The combinations may not be "your own", but they change as soon as you alter something, and if you worry along those lines, with their dynamics, they're then rather nobody's combinations than somebody else's, actually. Their usage, however is based on an interpretation. If your interpretation differed vastly from the TC, there is a good chance it has been off all along. Another thing that is hard to accept is that you might have been wrong on some instructions all along, and rather pretend: "That's not my interpretation! I'm not going to accept that and refuse." I know that from back then when the TC was announced, which I firstly thought to be a cheap workaround for a documentation proper that never was. Of course, I was wrong. But it took a while and good wee hours of giving it a go to realize how wrong I was. That's not saying the TC wouldn't have many limitations, it has, btw.

At the very least optionally, there was always going to be a point where real-life football logics had to be conceptualized, as firstly the AI would have been stuck in its fairly static global attacking mentality battle ram tactics forever. And secondly as FM else had become micro management hell. For every single tweak, no matter how small, there is a likelyhood you have to tweak all eleven players on the pitch individually, at worst, multiple sliders each at once. As such, dynamic decision making, in particular in match, in classic mode often consists of players picking one of the two, perhaps three tactics they have saved, probably juggling around with some team sliders such as time wasting ("I'll slot it here, looks about ok."), done. And then some tactics discussions of old for me are almost unbearable to read now personally. In each of those, no matter how well worded, lingers the question of: "What does this slider do exactly, and how do I allign it to get the best of it?" There's a kind of thinking that for many never materialized, as simply getting to grips with basic instructions as they were was a challenge. Nowadays posts can look a tad more sophisticated in terms of actual "tactics debate", rather than getting "lost in slideration". To better that, SI need to still better their official documentation though.

The TC, exactly as we know it, is done for anyway. Let's give it a look when the reworked tactics UI arrives. I mean, a real look, not dismissing it out of spite, as many had done for the TC. A tool still mistaken as a collection of static role templates when roles are but one concept in its dynamic structure. And as a nice tool to have – for beginners that is, when the wizard is but one part of it and by evidence even long-term players screwed mightily up using it. There's a reason for wwfan's "Twelve step playing guide", after all.

I have to admit the underlined bit is classy.

[Da_Funk]

To me, you appeared to accept the notion that in real life football, there are three defensive lines and not twenty.

Football Manager is a football management simulation, and so arguably if it ends up having just three defensive lines, it is more realistic than having twenty.

I'm pleased that our discussion has made you consider that maybe a lesser number than 20*20 is acceptable.

Just to give an example for the discussion.

There's a match going on, I'm the manager sitting on the bench. I decide to stand up, I go sidelines and I want to show my players where hypothetically the line should be.

Do I have 3 options/positions that I can indicate with my fingers? Half pitch is 50 meters, you cut the goal area which is more than 10 meters and I can say that realistically 20 is a much more realistic number then 3.

Of course your 3 is probably related to other settings of the TC like philosophy and strategy because if I set an offensive strategy probably I won't need to say to my defenders to stay outside the area.

But why am I not allowed to say that anymore? Why can't I?

[Mark Silver]

There are some detailed posts here that clearly show excitement about sliders sudden death, I really think there's no reasons to get so excited, the TC is a nice tool but it's a simplification that doesn't allow to develop every football style.

It set limits, narrow limits I'd say, it could be good for developers not for the virtual managers.

Just to make a small example, will the new system let me play very wide but employing a really deep defensive line or vice versa?

I agree.................

Just to give an example for the discussion.

There's a match going on, I'm the manager sitting on the bench. I decide to stand up, I go sidelines and I want to show my players where hypothetically the line should be.

Do I have 3 options/positions that I can indicate with my fingers? Half pitch is 50 meters, you cut the goal area which is more than 10 meters and I can say that realistically 20 is a much more realistic number then 3.

Of course your 3 is probably related to other settings of the TC like philosophy and strategy because if I set an offensive strategy probably I won't need to say to my defenders to stay outside the area.

But why am I not allowed to say that anymore? Why can't I?

*