FM14 - New Tactical Elements

[RTHerringbone]

Just to give an example for the discussion.

There's a match going on, I'm the manager sitting on the bench. I decide to stand up, I go sidelines and I want to show my players where hypothetically the line should be.

Do I have 3 options/positions that I can indicate with my fingers? Half pitch is 50 meters, you cut the goal area which is more than 10 meters and I can say that realistically 20 is a much more realistic number then 3.

Of course your 3 is probably related to other settings of the TC like philosophy and strategy because if I set an offensive strategy probably I won't need to say to my defenders to stay outside the area.

But why am I not allowed to say that anymore? Why can't I?

By your terms, half a pitch is 40 metres long (excluding the penalty box), 20 Slider notches gives a line every 2 metres.

The TC currently gives a line per Strategy, all of which can be increased via Pressing, so the TC in fact already provides multiple defensive lines, which can then in turn be affected again by the use of Shouts.

I don't understand the obsession with Sliders, in the same way as pro-Slider FM'ers don't understand my reasoning for the TC.

Fundamentally, it is all the same thing, it's just different means of arriving at that same conclusion.

Nobody's right, nobody's wrong.

[Da_Funk]

By your terms, half a pitch is 40 metres long (excluding the penalty box), 20 Slider notches gives a line every 2 metres.

The TC currently gives a line per Strategy, all of which can be increased via Pressing, so the TC in fact already provides multiple defensive lines, which can then in turn be affected again by the use of Shouts.

I don't understand the obsession with Sliders, in the same way as pro-Slider FM'ers don't understand my reasoning for the TC.

Fundamentally, it is all the same thing, it's just different means of arriving at that same conclusion.

Nobody's right, nobody's wrong.

You're saying that to set a simple thing like a d-line do I have to pass through Strategy+Pressing+Shouts?

Where's the improvement in terms of realism and in user experience?

It's not obsession with sliders, it's the level of control and customization you have.

Let me add one thing linking to OP: how come now we have to add roles because of one player?

We have to add a role because of Busquets? Then why not a role because of Lucio or this player or that? Do you see that coming? We're ggoing to do the process backward: you are not forging the players that is what you should do.

[higgins]

A popular argument about the sliders explains that sliders are gone cause they unbalanced the game, the common mantra is that AI doesn't use sliders, just TC & shouts.

In a certain sense this a myth that should be debunked, if both competitors use the same weapons it doesn't mean they're both equally skilled in using them; only an improved AI capable to challenge human decision-making process could better balance the game, sliders are a false problem.

[rune_star]

Why do people argue SO hard about loosing the sliders, before knowing what will replace them? Have I missed out on an update from SI or something? So far I've only seen info on player roles and duties and an overall new tactic system. What we haven't seen is team strategy and instructions or what used to be in-match shouts as yet...

Surely this entire debate would make more sense when all tactic related info is out?

[RTHerringbone]

You're saying that to set a simple thing like a d-line do I have to pass through Strategy+Pressing+Shouts?

Where's the improvement in terms of realism and in user experience?

It's not obsession with sliders, it's the level of control and customization you have.

We are approaching this from different perspectives so are unlikely to reach a common ground.

My belief is that I play with a Counter Strategy, I know my line will be relatively deep. Is it notch 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8? I don't care. Deep is deep in a broad sense, and I'll watch the match to see how deep we are - as depth, of course is affected not only by our instructions, but also by the approach of the opposition.

If the opposition is also sitting deep, my line might creep up a bit if we have more possession. If so, and if I want to change it, I'll use the appropriate Shout.

Will that drop my line by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 notches? I don't actually care. The quantum of movement is never going to be that critical. I think the granularity that Sliders offer to a degree, is fake. If anyone truly thinks they can see a tangible difference between notches 3 and 5, they are eagle eyed or they are subject to a placebo effect.

Managers do not give themselves hernias about a metre here or there, football is a dynamic sport played out by humans and not robots. Why do teams get offside traps wrong? Why do goals get scored from set pieces? Humans make mistakes, they deviate from the plan.

[Da_Funk]

Deep is deep in a broad sense, and I'll watch the match to see how deep we are - as depth, of course is affected not only by our instructions, but also by the approach of the opposition.

Will that drop my line by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 notches? I don't actually care. The quantum of movement is never going to be that critical. I think the granularity that Sliders offer to a degree, is fake. If anyone truly thinks they can see a tangible difference between notches 3 and 5, they are eagle eyed or they are subject to a placebo effect.

Well you should care and it is that critical because a forward moving deep can move 5, 10, 15 meters or can come back until the midfield. And the difference between a 3 and a 5 is tangible since a setting like mentality for example affects other things like forward runs, passes and crosses. It's not placebo, just like a player with all attributes 3 and another with all 5.

Why do teams get offside traps wrong?

Because a player is one meter out of position? Just joking

[RTHerringbone]

Well you should care and it is that critical because a forward moving deep can move 5, 10, 15 meters or can come back until the midfield. And the difference between a 3 and a 5 is tangible since a setting like mentality for example affects other things like forward runs, passes and crosses. It's not placebo, just like a player with all attributes 3 and another with all 5.

How does a defensive line behave in "real life" against a lone striker who drops deep? Does it chase him up field and establish a new line?

If you can truly see the differences between players with attributes of 3 and attributes of 5, I'm impressed.

All attributes of 18 and all attributes of 20, you can see that too?

[däkkä]

P.S. This post has no head nor tail but just summing up some thoughts. Read the bold parts at least

Manager to player chain

1. manager's instructions ("this is how I want you to play")
   
2. translation, tactical interface (TC, an absolute necessity as this translates humanese to computerian)
   
3. player's interpretation ("this is what I think I'm supposed to do", nonexistent in FM, hopefully in the future)
   
4. ME action (player performs according to his attributes and the input from earlier levels of the chain)
   

What has changed for FM14 is the step #2. TC as the tactical interface is vastly more easier to understand than merely sliders. And the tactical interface is supposed to be easy to understand as it is the part of the chain that doesn't exist in real life. To provide as realistic a footballing experience as possible the "how do I speak to a computer?" element had to be diminished. Before TC we as a manager had to study the interface which in practice meant going through the whole above mentioned chain and seeing how certain instructions play out (4.). Even then the affect of non-tactical variables (the players, their morale and their attributes) could not be monitored. Horrific stuff and made users concentrate on the wrong things as the results of slider study were at best ambiguous.

Slider era had a false sense of control. If full-backs are hardcoded to clear the ball at least 20/100 times when underPressure=1, and you want to decrease the clearance rate further, no amount of slider tweaking will get you the results you wanted. Most of the time you would find false patterns or buggy patterns.

A big part of slider tweaking revolved around glitches in the ME rather than tactical ideas. A lot of times people saw a (semi-)hardcoded, glitchy actions from their player and expected that sliders could fix the issue. Most of the time it wasn't possible or the solution was illogical. On the other hand many people worked really hard trying to use the glitches as a weapon against the opponent. Hopefully a more sandboxed ME environment has helped SI to get the ME coherent with more apparent causation. Who knows, perhaps a big chunk of idiotic player behaviour will have disappeared.

But I do miss the sliders. The sliders were really flexible when used correctly. I for one based entire philosophies (ultra fluid and unbalanced RIP), passing frameworks (very short and specialized RIP) and and roles (poaching inside forward, playmaking wing-back RIP) around the way TC changed sliders.

It is apparent that the amount of tactical instructions has diminished. That is purely mathematical. That's not to say there are necessarily less ME outcomes for the tactical instructions at one's disposal. Quite possibly there are but on the other hand the ME will presumably be more bug-free, balanced and actually work more in the way it's intended to work.

Not only is the ME presumably less glitchy, the fewer instructions you have are more powerful and distinct than before. This is what I assume at least. As the ME doesn't need to be balanced to work with illogical instructions (width 0 + RB mentality 20, FC mentality 0 etc etc), the instructions need not be as compromising and "soft" but have a real rough, clearly visible affect in the match engine.

Finally, what is greatest about this update is that the human manager has an equal in the AI. The AI goes through the exact same chain, which makes for better and more varied tactical battles.

[higgins]

Finally, what is greatest about this update is that the human manager has an equal in the AI. The AI goes through the exact same chain, which makes for better and more varied tactical battles.

Once again, how could you be so sure about that?

I hope #FM14 will be a different story, but you probably forgot AI poor team building, season after season, it's clear enough that AI is still miles behind.

Same weapons, different skills.

[däkkä]

Of course they are not equal strictly speaking as they lack a functioning brain... But the playing field is more even with them using the same tactical interface.

As for AI team building, everything being role-based can't hurt, can it? Certainly a step forward.

[ModernLefty]

I doubt it hurts, but it will make very little difference until SI develop a calculation which the A.I. does so that it doesn't seem to just buy average peak aged players with high reputations while the user is free to hoover up the majority of the younger, less expensive, (and lower reputation) but higher potential targets first.

Whether this process/adaptation requires making a lack of scouting knowledge have even more of a fog of war effect upon the user, so that smaller clubs unless they have really worked on tracking that area of the world/building their scouting network, have to buy from more realistic sources of players. Limiting the ability to significantly over achieve from buying cheap regens from whichever country becomes the save's young player gold mine; or possibly by basing AI calculations of the JPP of a manager/director of football, so that the higher the number the quicker they can recognise a blue chip (high potential) prospect, and therefore try to make a move to buy this player, as well as the current effect of allowing accurate predictions of their overall potential.

This is the first issue before the AI even has to attempt to intelligently develop the prospects that they have their grubby mitts on.

However, on the note of the removal of sliders I've surprised myself with not actually hating the look of the proposed changes, hopefully it will knit together everything abit more neatly, though I do think that overall the proof will be in the pudding, and that we will only know the extent to which the franchise has diminished or improved after we all get our hands on the beta, hopefully the limitations placed upon the user will mean that, SI can work on really ironing out the few remaining flaws that linger in the match engine.

[yonko]

Is it me or do some people here forget that the TC includes sliders?

I want to know how the tactical system in FM14 will show me the differences in instructions between the roles since there will be no sliders? How will I know for example what are the default settings/instructions for each role (especially the new roles) before deciding what personal shouts to use in order to modify them? Or even which roles to select for each position?

[wwfan]

We are approaching this from different perspectives so are unlikely to reach a common ground.My belief is that I play with a Counter Strategy, I know my line will be relatively deep. Is it notch 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8? I don't care. Deep is deep in a broad sense, and I'll watch the match to see how deep we are - as depth, of course is affected not only by our instructions, but also by the approach of the opposition.If the opposition is also sitting deep, my line might creep up a bit if we have more possession. If so, and if I want to change it, I'll use the appropriate Shout.Will that drop my line by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 notches?

I don't actually care. The quantum of movement is never going to be that critical. I think the granularity that Sliders offer to a degree, is fake. If anyone truly thinks they can see a tangible difference between notches 3 and 5, they are eagle eyed or they are subject to a placebo effect.Managers do not give themselves hernias about a metre here or there, football is a dynamic sport played out by humans and not robots.

Why do teams get offside traps wrong? Why do goals get scored from set pieces? Humans make mistakes, they deviate from the plan.

This sums up the mindset one needs to embrace the TC. If you can't let go of micro control, you'll never appreciate the dynamism the TC provides.

It's worth mentioning that during FMLive, we pretty much proved that dynamic TC management was far, far more effective than static slider management. Those who embraced the dynamic options of the TC overachieved against those who didn't.

[deserter]

I feel (strongly) that any tools that we have at our disposal, the AI should also be able to take advantage of. Thus I'm happy to see the sliders gone and I hope that the AI will make a good use of the individual shout-like instructions (what do you call them?) depending on their preferred style of play and the player strengths/weaknesses

It's worth mentioning that during FMLive, we pretty much proved that dynamic TC management was far, far more effective than static slider management. Those who embraced the dynamic options of the TC overachieved against those who didn't.

I welcomed the TC with open arms but if anything it became slightly harder to succeed. But I think that only supports your statement.

I did well both before and after, whereas the others generally became harder to beat.

[wereldbol]

Regarding the shadow striker debate, there is a fairly famous quote from Zlatan Ibrahimovic that often gets 'memed'. It goes like this - 'Commenting on his role as a shadow striker to Lionel Messi -"You don't buy a Ferrari to drive it like a Fiat".'

Therefore we should look to how that Barcelona team set up to see what is meant by the term.

this got lost in translation a bit, he mentioned the shadow striker in the sense that he was playing in messi's shadow, not that he was playing in the role of a shadow striker, a role which will only exist in "Football Hipster 2014"

[higgins]

this got lost in translation a bit, he mentioned the shadow striker in the sense that he was playing in messi's shadow, not that he was playing in the role of a shadow striker, a role which will only exist in "Football Hipster 2014"

Football Hipster 2014?

Not bad

[däkkä]

I doubt it hurts, but it will make very little difference until SI develop a calculation which the A.I. does so that it doesn't seem to just buy average peak aged players with high reputations while the user is free to hoover up the majority of the younger, less expensive, (and lower reputation) but higher potential targets first.

It is still progress and the downfall of AI squad building happens not because of but in spite of it. The real causes for poor squad building really do not touch the subject of new tactical elements.

[flere-imsaho]

I get (and love) all the new roles, except this one:

The Shadow Striker

The Shadow Striker operates as the teams main goal scoring threat. Usually coupled with a deep lying forward, the Shadow Striker aggressively pushes forward into goal scoring positions as the ball moves into the final third and looks to close down opposing defenders when out of possession.

Is this basically a combo between a Poacher/AF on one hand and DF on the other?

[flere-imsaho]

I just want a more aggressive version of the "Work Ball Into Box" shout. Something like "Stop taking long shots. I mean it. The next time your so-called 'shot' ends up in the car park I will cut you."

[curtis2307]

I just want a more aggressive version of the "Work Ball Into Box" shout. Something like "Stop taking long shots. I mean it. The next time your so-called 'shot' ends up in the car park I will cut you."

Superb

[llama3]

Wish the post-match conversation with a player about his previous performance had more options, i.e. specifically discuss passing (i know we can do this already), work rate, shooting (regardless of position - e.g. wasteful, long shots, not composed enough etc), tackling stats, aerial performance, shot stopping etc.

[ShirazS]

I get (and love) all the new roles, except this one:

Is this basically a combo between a Poacher/AF on one hand and DF on the other?

I think it is a good addition, like a false 10.

[higgins]

Wish the post-match conversation with a player about his previous performance had more options, i.e. specifically discuss passing (i know we can do this already), work rate, shooting (regardless of position - e.g. wasteful, long shots, not composed enough etc), tackling stats, aerial performance, shot stopping etc.

Don't you think it could become soon repetitive?

[llama3]

Don't you think it could become soon repetitive?

No - because there is FM Classic for those that do not like in-depth, you arent obliged to use conversations with players much if you do not want.

[higgins]

No - because there is FM Classic for those that do not like in-depth, you arent obliged to use conversations with players much if you do not want.

In-depth? I don't like interactions cause I consider them boring after some time, in my opinion they're not enough in-depth but follow a predictable plan.

[wwfan]

My biggest fear: players roles are now the most important aspect of a tactic, and I have to say I don't always understand/agree with SI Games ideas and opinions about roles/tactical concepts (which tend to be very British concepts). Trequartista is quite a different role in my mind for example... and all the new roles will surely add more specialization and variety, but might also generate confusion (I appreciate the expalanations in this thread, but at the end of the day a Regista IS exactly a deep-lying playmaker at least in Italian and the Enganche is simply put an advanced playmaker, which by the way is a trequartista in Italian though Trequartista has a slightly different meaning in FM...)

I'd like to see less conventional brands of football being more successful in FM14, like for example a South American style: less pressing, slower tempo, deeper defensive line while still playing a very attacking, possession-oriented and flamboyant football, which is something quite hard to achieve in FM in my experience.

I've heard the TQ argument before. The poster employed Roberto Mancini's essay on the TQ to make his point that the role was wrongly conceptualised in FM. The problem was, this was the very same essay we'd used to conceptualise the role. The poster didn't understand slider settings, which was why he disagreed with the role settings. Not much we can do about that.

I accept that in theory an Enganche and TQ are much of a muchness, as are a Regista and DLP. However, they have a national flavour or identity. It might be that the subtle differences between the roles can help SI better develop Italian and Argentinian styles of play, just as the CWB might help the Brazilian game and the Target Winger (or whatever it's called) might help develop a Scandinavian style. They should all contribute to your desire to have a multi-flavoured tactical world.

I don't entirely agree that the less conventional styles can't be effective. The South American style you're suggesting is one of my go to styles on a good playing surface. There is a tendency for these forums to focus on a very British style of tactic, but perhaps that is not surprising as it is a GB dominated forum. I certainly don't think a GB style has an innate tactical advantage.

[llama3]

I feel that the TC (in its entirety, as both TC & Sliders) can make it hard to get a hybrid style of play - i.e. to press quickly to win the ball back, before dropping into a low, narrow block, slow build up with changes of pace & circulation etc for sudden quick combos - but its possible, just takes a lot of work and effort if you want something very specific.

[mikcheck]

llama3 are you referring to that in the future FM14? Because in these recent versions press quickly upfront and try to win the ball as quick as possible but dropping deep and narrow if the team didn't get the ball i think it's almost impossible. And those changes of pace etc, maybe with a counter strategy maybe

[llama3]

Referring to FM13, i haven't played FM14 so would be foolish to comment on that. I mix pressing with zonal marking to try and win the ball high before sitting in a compact shape, and as for changes of pace, a counter strategy and a mix of passing styles and roles to do that too.

[mikcheck]

llama and how do you accomplish that high pressing before sitting deep? More zonal marking pressing and deep line?

[llama3]

"Zonal Marking" and "Press More" on the team instructions. Often "Cautious Tackling" too. Doesn't always work, but sometimes.

[rune_star]

Just noticed... in the "Match Day" video from last week, if you freeze at exactly 1:00 (one minute), Miles is giving instructions for his DL, and in the header of the dialogue box it says "Complete Wingback/float"... anybody else noticed, and do we have any clue as to what "float" means? It COULD of course just be beta text from developers, but still...

Edit: Ok, having seen "Attack" in the same place later on, I'm guessing it's a new type of 'duty', as attack it set from the initial prematch dropdown selector. Still shows that there's something going on...

[llama3]

Also saw somewhere an "Advanced Playmaker - Defend" - so think there are other bits going on too.

[etcetera]

I think the TC is exactly what it's called, a creator. It can create hundreds to thousands different tactics depending on the players positions and roles and team instructions, but you can't specify with it. eg 'shoot on sight' will make most or all your players take long shots, and 'work into box' does the opposite, but you can't use the TC or shouts to make the entire team 'work into box' but make a specific player 'shoot on sight'.

You can use whatever tactic and whichever combination of shouts you want, but you're basically choosing a set of preset instructions to apply to your team. And these presets are determined by what the game developers think they mean. When Guardiola tells his team to 'drop deeper' he'll have a different meaning and expectation to Mourinho for example. Removing the the slider system without a proper replacement = true death to customization. Don't know about the others on this forum but I feel my interpretation of some of the shouts is different to the game developers, and as the owner of this game, I expect the ability to implement my interpretation

[higgins]

I think the TC is exactly what it's called, a creator. It can create hundreds to thousands different tactics depending on the players positions and roles and team instructions, but you can't specify with it. eg 'shoot on sight' will make most or all your players take long shots, and 'work into box' does the opposite, but you can't use the TC or shouts to make the entire team 'work into box' but make a specific player 'shoot on sight'.

You can use whatever tactic and whichever combination of shouts you want, but you're basically choosing a set of preset instructions to apply to your team. And these presets are determined by what the game developers think they mean. When Guardiola tells his team to 'drop deeper' he'll have a different meaning and expectation to Mourinho for example. Removing the the slider system without a proper replacement = true death to customization. Don't know about the others on this forum but I feel my interpretation of some of the shouts is different to the game developers, and as the owner of this game, I expect the ability to implement my interpretation

Not a bad point at all, I asked for real custom shouts since last year, not sure we could have them.

[RTHerringbone]

I think the TC is exactly what it's called, a creator. It can create hundreds to thousands different tactics depending on the players positions and roles and team instructions, but you can't specify with it. eg 'shoot on sight' will make most or all your players take long shots, and 'work into box' does the opposite, but you can't use the TC or shouts to make the entire team 'work into box' but make a specific player 'shoot on sight'

Erm. Won't FM14 have individual player instructions to allow us to do just this?

Your observation holds water in the FM13 world, but perhaps less so in the FM14 world.

[etcetera]

Erm. Won't FM14 have individual player instructions to allow us to do just this?

Your observation holds water in the FM13 world, but perhaps less so in the FM14 world.

Indeed, but most of the discussion in this thread is about TC vs sliders, without regard to FM14 features, so i'm just chipping in 2 cents

[rune_star]

Except the thread is called "FM14 - New Tactical Elements"

[etcetera]

I dont think the thread title was taken into consideration when the discussion started

[mojojojo101]

Just looked through the video again and it seems the individual shouts do depend on the position... this worries me a little, mainly because I've become obssesed over the course of FM13 of using centre backs who like to come out of the defensive line both with and without the ball.

[Cleon]

Just looked through the video again and it seems the individual shouts do depend on the position... this worries me a little, mainly because I've become obssesed over the course of FM13 of using centre backs who like to come out of the defensive line both with and without the ball.

Defensive line only works without the ball.

I'm pretty certain a ball playing defender will still bring the ball out from the back because that's his role. The new individual shouts are just a way to refine the role for how you want to him to play but by the nature of his role playing with the ball at his feet will be an actual part of the role.

[soccer.joel]

does anyone know what the difference between the false 9 and deep lying forward will be?

[deserter]

I wonder if there's going to be changes under the hood in how certain things are accomplished.

We won't be able to see how the roles are defined like we used to with the sliders etc. visible. Yet there's the half back which is supposed to drop into the defense with the ball. Will the slider settings etc. have been developed further to facilitate this kind of new movement, or could they now adding some code for the special roles to make them "think" outside the normal slider behavior? The hiding of the inner workings would arguably allow the devs to go this route.

I think this route could leave the ME module a bit messy in the end, but on the other hand they could tailor the special roles to be, um, more special.

[yonko]

does anyone know what the difference between the false 9 and deep lying forward will be?

It's anybody's guess. At this point we don't know if we are going to be able to see the instructions for each role, much less to see the difference. Perhaps we would just have descriptions and we'll have to use our own interpretation.

[kandersson]

I've heard the TQ argument before. The poster employed Roberto Mancini's essay on the TQ to make his point that the role was wrongly conceptualised in FM. The problem was, this was the very same essay we'd used to conceptualise the role. The poster didn't understand slider settings, which was why he disagreed with the role settings. Not much we can do about that.

I accept that in theory an Enganche and TQ are much of a muchness, as are a Regista and DLP. However, they have a national flavour or identity. It might be that the subtle differences between the roles can help SI better develop Italian and Argentinian styles of play, just as the CWB might help the Brazilian game and the Target Winger (or whatever it's called) might help develop a Scandinavian style. They should all contribute to your desire to have a multi-flavoured tactical world.

I don't entirely agree that the less conventional styles can't be effective. The South American style you're suggesting is one of my go to styles on a good playing surface. There is a tendency for these forums to focus on a very British style of tactic, but perhaps that is not surprising as it is a GB dominated forum. I certainly don't think a GB style has an innate tactical advantage.

I appreciate that SI is trying to bring more tactical variety and new flavors to this aspect, I'm just slightly concerned that I have to trust more than ever the TC and players roles when in my personal experience I noticed I might 'disagree' with them now and then... Sometimes I have to find a compromise with the style of football I enjoy and things that work better in the game, which might be realistic most of the times but not all the times.

There is nothing awfully wrong about the TQ in FM from my point of view, personally I think a TQ (who should only be an AMC imo) should run with the ball often and take on defenders on the 'trequarti' (the central zone in the offensive 3/4 line) in addition to come deep to get ball and look for through passes. Basically an Adv. Playmaker with more creative freedom and license to play in a more risky and maybe spectacular way.

The small issue I have with the TQ in FM is that: 1) I don't think SI and me are thinking at the same role in real football, which might very well be a mere matter of language 2) AMC works much better in FM when he's a passer/playmaker or an off the ball threat moving into channels and into the box. A flamboyant TQ with the ability of beating opponents off the dribble in the central zone of the offensive half is traditionally less effective in the game (at least in my experience), probably because this is something quite uncommon for British football. Players like Zico, Maradona, Roberto Baggio or the young Kaka in his first spell at AC Milan might be an example of the TQ I have in my mind.

With that said I'm looking forward to see all the new roles and elements of FM14, and hopefully I will learn how to use every new tactical flavour of the game

[ceefax the cat]

What hogwash in here about the enganche. Physical? Closes down? Doesn't roam from his position?

In Argentina the 4-3-1-2 formation is specifically designed so that the enganche can:

- do pretty much no defending whatsoever, while his teammates (particularly the carrilleros either side of midfield) pick up the slack. The brief of the enganche when not in possession is to walk about looking for some space while his mates try to get the ball back. They don't chase, they don't tackle and they don't mark.

- go wherever he wants on the pitch. Riquelme is the archetypal enganche and his movement tends to be lateral. He drifts out to the flanks, making a headache for centre halves or defensive midfielders who might be detailed to stop him. What he most certainly doesn't do is simply hold his position in the middle of the park. He drops into whatever space he can find and exchanges short passes with his teammates until he spots an opportunity to play the killer ball.

The trequartista in FM is close to what an enganche is IRL and it's almost as though SI have got them the wrong way round. A trequartista IRL is simply a number 10 - a striker who drops between the lines and creates, and who might very well work just as hard as his teammates in defence.

While we're at it, a regista is not some free-spirited roaming DM, he's simply a central midfielder who dictates the tempo and directs play, a reference point, and there's no expectation for him to move around the pitch an awful lot or play particularly deep. He could be an MC in a 442, he's just someone who doesn't go forward a lot and distributes the ball intelligently. There is also no reason for him not to be a hard-working defensive player. Capello, as a player, functioned as a regista. He was always available, always knew what to do with the ball and always sent his passes on their way with some kind of barked instruction as to what to do next. He never played the killer pass but controlled where and when his team attacked.

There are too many overlapping player roles in FM and half of them are misnomers. Rubbish.

As far as sliders go, there should be more of them- sliders for things that are currently options or PPMs. You should start off with a basic role, such as 'attacking midfielder' and then have sliders for all the things an attacking midfielder might choose to do, such as:

- move wide

- drop deep to get the ball

- track back

- roam

By adjusting sliders like that, as well as the existing ones (I'd make through balls, crosses, runs from deep sliders too) you could easily fashion the role you wanted. 20 for 'drop deep to collect' would see the guy constantly checking back to get it from the back four, 5 would see him occasionally come back into midfield and on 1 he'd stay between the lines all the time. The default would be 10 for all of these things.

That kind of tweaking would be a lot closer to what a manager does. "You'll play attacking mid" and then "I'd like you to get out wide a bit more. Actually even more if you could. Great."

[Cleon]

Sliders for moving wide, tracking back etc? Oh dear god so many things wrong with that ludicrous idea I don't know where to start....

Riquelme is the only player of his kind btw. If you watch or follow Argentina football (which I'm sure you will) then you'd know that none of them do what Riquelme does because he is the last of his kind. The role has evolved and they are in fact physical and close down and are more central based now.. This is one of the reasons Argentina have had issues over the last few years because they have no natural replacement for Riquelme because no-one in the world does what he does. If you are talking an enganche from the 80/90's then I'd agree with you. But in modern day football they aren't as mobile/free roaming as they used to be. Like everything else the position has evolved and is open to interpretation. I do agree with you about some roles overlapping in FM though.

[ceefax the cat]

Well right now we're stuck with one option, which ain't good enough. I ask my libero to make forward runs, he doesn't do it as much as I'd like, that's it. Stuck. If I had a few more notches, to say "No, I really really want you to get forward" then I'm not stuck.

Please though... What are the problems as far as you can see? For the record I'd also do away with 'mentality' in its current form. It's the most cryptic thing about the whole tactics interface and doesn't have much of a real, logical link to real life

[ceefax the cat]

To me, that means he enganche is dying out, that what we see now is not an enganche but a fairly generic KP Boatengesque attacking midfielder, not really deserving of a special name. For an attacking midfielder to remain central and close down a lot is not remarkable at all... What Riquelme did was what an enganche is

[Cleon]

Well right now we're stuck with one option, which ain't good enough. I ask my libero to make forward runs, he doesn't do it as much as I'd like, that's it. Stuck. If I had a few more notches, to say "No, I really really want you to get forward" then I'm not stuck.

Please though... What are the problems as far as you can see? For the record I'd also do away with 'mentality' in its current form. It's the most cryptic thing about the whole tactics interface and doesn't have much of a real, logical link to real life

How do you know you are stuck with one option, you've not played FM14 yet. You are guessing you have one option only. And if you are talking FM13 then you have more than 1 option for making the libero attacking and getting him to make more runs.