Football Manager 12.1.1 update *OFFICIAL* Feedback Thread

[themadsheep2001]

Changes look excellent, glad to see one of my issues being dealt with too

[magicmastermind124]

All of FMUpdates' release topics on this forum now have disclaimers asking users not to report bugs using our files to the official bugs forum.

[RazvanRat]

Hmm,

issues with players automatically refusing to go on loan to feeder clubs is supposed to have been addressed, but I'm still having exactly the same problems as I was when I first reported the issue here:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/286042-Players-Not-Interested-in-Joining-Feeder-Club

Was this addressed with changes that should take effect directly after applying the patch - in which case it's not working -, or should I expect to have to play through some time before my players eventually become willing to go out on loan?

[nom245]

The main problem is simple:

Using the advanced editor can cause instabilities and crashes in people's games. If people only used these files themselves then I doubt it would matter, but when passing those edited files around the community you could be affecting the games of other people who then bring it back to SI (who could spend hours/days etc investigating the issue only to find out it had nothing to do with the game).

Until the editor can officially be expanded to support those extra options it makes sense that SI are trying to put a stop to it.

If you see what I mean.

In short:

a) a database made with the advanced editor that screws up someone's game (and it may not do so until many seasons in) reflects badly on SI, not the database editors

b) SI effectively waste manhours trying to find a bug that isn't a bug with their game.

Hopefully the official editor can be expanded to support all the features needed, but until it does you can surely understand why SI are uneasy about its use.

I do not agree, but I really appreciate finally someone who give us an explanation more clear. I can understand the reasons that are determined this decision, but I can object that crashes are present whith every part of the game, and maybe the avdanced panel is not the biggest part. With the standard fm11 editor I think the number of crashes you had in the past year due to the ID problem, that makes crazy most of us, was much larger than the problems caused by the advanced rules releases (which are very limited in number). In fact, this year you add the random ID to correct this problem. I hope you will use your resources for provide a sufficient functional editor. As soon as you do that, I immediately stop to use something that SI do not want I use and I diffuse. But until then, I continue to use it and to use fm12, if necessary the next year and maybe the year after..

[TheWednesday]

I appreciate the hard work that has been put into this update, however the editor that i normally use to update squads, add missing players and update history's for my own save now will not load, i just get the green screen with the manager image that has been mentioned previously. I respect that you may have had problems regarding editor files causing crashes to peoples saves etc, but i think by now people understand the risks when beginning to use the editor and a simple message that SI wont be able to sort any issue caused by the program would have been good enough, rather than removing the whole editor, and stopping people from playing the game in a way that they would like.

Thanks again for the hard work, there are definately postives from the update, and apologies if i have misunderstood any situation regarding the editor.

Regards

[JiggyDempsey]

Should CPU usage be at 100% constant? Since the patch, my system seems to be struggling when just selecting a team!

[Chicha_14]

Yeah, basically if you're a low rep manager (say no previous football experience) it'll be harder for you to get a lift out of players, you'll need to earn their respect and trust. Even more experienced managers will find it harder to get positive team talks, basically it was perhaps slightly too easy to get a positive reaction. We've tried to make it more realistic by making these changes.

OK maybe why I can't get a positive reaction because I started a new game with a low rep in the Premier League.

Should CPU usage be at 100% constant? Since the patch, my system seems to be struggling when just selecting a team!

It seems to me like this is just with FM12. With FM11 I had none of this but FM12 takes up a lot more IMO.

[Guest]

The following extract from the changelist has me confused;

- When transfer listing a player by request, the player will no longer be unhappy about their transfer request been rejected.

Is this a typo? If a player requests being transfer listed I would expect them to be unhappy if I rejected the request.

I've also not seen any reference to toning down the frequency of agents/players asking for a new contract after a transfer bid is rejected, has this seen a tweak?

[Neil Brock]

Regarding the Advanced Editor - why not just stick a warning sign when you open that menu to indicate that SI cannot always help you if you use the advanced editor?

It is clear the community - the users - your customer base - has been an avid fan of this, both directly (the editors themselves) and indirectly (people who use these custom leagues). You are taking away a feature that they enjoy.

Are you listening to your users, or are you just concerned with keeping your bug tracking levels down?

We're not taking away a feature that they enjoy as it was never released as a feature. It was hacked from the start and was never intended for external use. It's got absolutely nothing to do with 'bug tracking levels' whatsoever and I'm quite appalled that some people believe that we place bug numbers as a higher priority than the enjoyment of our users. I'm afraid due to the instability of the advanced editor and the fact, as has been said on numerous occasions, it was never intended for external use we cannot support anyone using it as part of the game.

[Neil Brock]

The following extract from the changelist has me confused;

Is this a typo? If a player requests being transfer listed I would expect them to be unhappy if I rejected the request.[/color]

Basically if a player was unhappy and you rejected his transfer request, then further down the line he requested a transfer again and you accepted he'd still remain 'unhappy' over the first rejection. That's now been fixed. Thanks.

[Guest]

Got'ya, makes sense now.

[MUFC1995]

this STILL hasnt been fixed, whenever united play a team in all white they have red socks!! *sigh*

[MUFC1995]

Hi,

In the match screen the goalkeeper kit changes to the colour of the normal kit the players wear for some reason....

Also the age on the player stat screens has not been working since fm10!! if you look at one player stats and then another the age doesnt change:

Also, any reply to this SI??

[wcujer80]

Regarding the Advanced Editor - why not just stick a warning sign when you open that menu to indicate that SI cannot always help you if you use the advanced editor?

It is clear the community - the users - your customer base - has been an avid fan of this, both directly (the editors themselves) and indirectly (people who use these custom leagues). You are taking away a feature that they enjoy.

Are you listening to your users, or are you just concerned with keeping your bug tracking levels down?

I'll take this a bit further. If you notice within the PC gaming community there is always some amount of customization going on, even in games that you wouldn't think about. The PC crowd, by their nature, like to mess around with things and dig into a game and make it something unique or try and improve on things. Your best bet is to try an be as pro-active in this as possible by giving people an outlet (like a dedicated "bug" forum) to discuss things and see what works and what doesn't work. You have the choice of trying to shut out customers who have already bought your game and my say "f it" on future titles, just letting us use what is there but don't help the community at all, or by going the route of Bethesda and actively engaging the modding community. If anything you should be looking at some of the weird things your game does when players are using these custom competitions (either basic or advanced) to see where you can improve the game. You just can't realistically expect to give someone an editor that feels like it was thrown together as an afterthought and tell them to "just make do" when they have been using something much more functional and useful.

[x42bn6]

We're not taking away a feature that they enjoy as it was never released as a feature. It was hacked from the start and was never intended for external use. It's got absolutely nothing to do with 'bug tracking levels' whatsoever and I'm quite appalled that some people believe that we place bug numbers as a higher priority than the enjoyment of our users.

This is exactly what you are doing!

You said that it was infeasible to try and chase down potential edits that caused crashes (bug tickets), so you have disabled this ability. Therefore you are aiming to reduce the amount of effort and bug tickets raised as a result of custom edits.

It doesn't matter if it wasn't released as an official feature (there are an infinite number of things in the game that were never announced). It is a mechanism that users have found that has produced many interesting databases and edits for the community as a whole.

You could go a million steps further and ensure that all your configuration files are encoded so that nobody can edit them to create custom databases (editing XML files isn't a "feature"), but this is of course going to provoke more outrage.

If the ticket and support levels are unmanageable, just:

1) Add a warning to the advanced editor noting that SI do not support this feature and that support cannot be guaranteed on the same level as "standard FM"

2) Every time someone edits a database using the advanced editor, mark the database edit as "dirty". When a "dirty" database is loaded into FM, pop up a warning message saying that this database uses unsupported features and that crashes cannot be supported by SI, and that support needs to come from the community

You should be encouraging hacking of your products, really. I'm sure it's the hacking of databases that led to the competition creator in FM10, as users wanted to create databases beyond what was capable in FM09 and its previous versions. The hacking of competitions will drive the editor.

I'm afraid due to the instability of the advanced editor and the fact, as has been said on numerous occasions, it was never intended for external use we cannot support anyone using it as part of the game.

You don't have to support it. Just mark it as "unsupported". You are making legitimate, stable edits into collateral damage.

[Guest]

I'm so glad that I do not get involved in using the editor, I do see where SI are coming from though.

Having enough resources to support the modding community is a tricky financial balance, what percentage of the entire FM community are actively involved in the mod scene, either by creating or using unofficial downloads? If for the sake of discussion 5% of FM gamers regularly use 3rd part mods then surely SI's expenditure in this area should not exceed 5%, maybe 10% as mods can as you right point out become unofficial testers.

There is another issue that I can see & this takes FM out of the normal modding scene that exists for many other games, the problem is that of licensing agreements that have been signed for SI to use the various leagues, player & all other manner of data. If I was in the business of selling any form of football related image license to a games developer I'd be making damn sure that they [sI] were not proving end-users with a tool that could mess around with the data my client owns & has agreed to let them use.

[x42bn6]

I'm so glad that I do not get involved in using the editor, I do see where SI are coming from though.

Having enough resources to support the modding community is a tricky financial balance, what percentage of the entire FM community are actively involved in the mod scene, either by creating or using unofficial downloads? If for the sake of discussion 5% of FM gamers regularly use 3rd part mods then surely SI's expenditure in this area should not exceed 5%, maybe 10% as mods can as you right point out become unofficial testers.

There is another issue that I can see & this takes FM out of the normal modding scene that exists for many other games, the problem is that of licensing agreements that have been signed for SI to use the various leagues, player & all other manner of data. If I was in the business of selling any form of football related image license to a games developer I'd be making damn sure that they [sI] were not proving end-users with a tool that could mess around with the data my client owns & has agreed to let them use.

That's not the point. If I license a set of data X, it doesn't mean I necessarily license a set of data X + Y where Y is a set of edits.

The Premier League owns the copyright to the Premier League table and its statistics, but does not necessarily own the copyright to a table where I calculate 5 points for a win, 3 for a draw, and -1 for a loss.

I believe that the EULA (this was the case in FM08, probably is for FM12) states that SI own all modifications made to the game anyway.

In addition, this prevents imaginary competitions from being created via the advanced editor - stuff that doesn't exist in reality and therefore isn't owned by anyone (outside of the EULA).

[Guest]

If a tool that is used to create imaginary competitions can also be used to alter real life competitions then any licensing issues will have to be taken into consideration, unfortunately neither of us will ever know the full terms of each & every agreement which I why my comments were purely speculation.

[magicmastermind124]

I'm very grateful for the debate going for the Advanced Rules. I feel as though this is something SI should embrace. You were the ones who came up with it, your own in game competitions use it. So it's obvious that it is going nowhere any time soon.

These files make a great game even greater, even some people in SI admire these files. I'm sure Gripper would have something to say, but if he wishes to reserve his opinions then that is fine with me.

When I found out this morning that the Advanced Editor had been permanently disabled my heart immediately sunk. I have poured so much of my own time into producing files for the community and so have many others. Thousands of people use files created using the Advanced Rules on FM, possibly every day. I wish I had more time in the day to help out people who are learning how to create competitions with the Advanced Rules.

[magicmastermind124]

It was hacked from the start and was never intended for external use.

Are you sure about this? If so, please explain why SI changed the format of the competitions archive to one that could be extracted, and why the files allowing for the use of the advanced rules had not only been left in the editor but updated through patching?

It's hard to believe that it was never intended for us to use. It must have been intended. But it's not like you're in a Hot Coffee situation.

[BSX]

I don't wanna play the bad boy, but if this really is the official feedback thread :

- IMO the new patch does much more harm than sth else (see bugs-threads if you want)

-- I'd like to go back to previous version if possible... ?

General feedback:

- I've been playing FM since 2007

-- Since then the community has always been waiting for patches in order to fix a lot of bugs.

--- But unfortunately I remember that each patch has always caused more problems instead of fixing previous issues... disappointnesses as a result...

---- Now I have been waiting for 5 years for a patch/game which should fix bugs without causing extra harm; but it seems like that patch/game will never come...

----- Personnaly I think it's unacceptable that this trend goes on, and think I'm near to close 'my FM career'

If I should summarize why I'm as disappointed it should be this:

- a very big part of what we see on FM is just there on the UI (user interface) and has no real/logical effect on the game

some examples:

- the better your scout is, the less stars he gives for a scouted player

- no matter how good your assistant is (you may even edit its hidden attributes like eg. squad rotation to 20/20) he will still do ridiculous things and even with 20 for squad rotation he won't rotate the squad at all.

SI has added a lot of new features since 2007, but unfortunately their biggest objective has always been the visual part. Everything what happens in the background has always been at random.

just my opinion.

[aberdeen_angus1903]

The only people for whom I would recommend starting a new game are those specifically looking for a tough challenge, ie taking on a big club as an ex Sunday League player.

I was wondering how big an impact the following fix has when starting a new game:

- Reduced memory usage a small amount, for best affects start a new game.

I am currently about to start my second season so starting again is not really a big deal but wouldn't want to unless I get some benefit.

[Neil Brock]

Also, any reply to this SI??

Has been raised on the bugs forum and we'll look into it.

[Neil Brock]

This is exactly what you are doing!

You said that it was infeasible to try and chase down potential edits that caused crashes (bug tickets), so you have disabled this ability. Therefore you are aiming to reduce the amount of effort and bug tickets raised as a result of custom edits.

It doesn't matter if it wasn't released as an official feature (there are an infinite number of things in the game that were never announced). It is a mechanism that users have found that has produced many interesting databases and edits for the community as a whole.

You could go a million steps further and ensure that all your configuration files are encoded so that nobody can edit them to create custom databases (editing XML files isn't a "feature"), but this is of course going to provoke more outrage.

If the ticket and support levels are unmanageable, just:

1) Add a warning to the advanced editor noting that SI do not support this feature and that support cannot be guaranteed on the same level as "standard FM"

2) Every time someone edits a database using the advanced editor, mark the database edit as "dirty". When a "dirty" database is loaded into FM, pop up a warning message saying that this database uses unsupported features and that crashes cannot be supported by SI, and that support needs to come from the community

You should be encouraging hacking of your products, really. I'm sure it's the hacking of databases that led to the competition creator in FM10, as users wanted to create databases beyond what was capable in FM09 and its previous versions. The hacking of competitions will drive the editor.

You don't have to support it. Just mark it as "unsupported". You are making legitimate, stable edits into collateral damage.

I'm sorry but you're not in a position to know what we do and how we do it, judging from your comments you are not familiar with how our coding team, how Sports Interactive or I would suggest any computer games company works. We really should not be encouraging hacking of our products - anyone that does so is actually in breach of the licensing agreement.

It's so vastly different between 'not announcing a feature' which is coded into the game, and something else which has to be hacked to become operational. We can't spend time adding 'warnings' and other such things to something which I'm afraid we have never wanted to, nor ever have supported. It was not created for outside use and should not be used as such.

All the things you suggest we do to support the advanced editor (something which we've made clear we don't want to do) such as adding a warning message or marking it as dirty, would take up valuable coding time which could be used on other areas of the game. I'm sorry, the final word on this we've made our decision regarding the advanced editor and that, as said, is final.

[Koki]

Any feedback on the transfer AI yet, fellow FM-players?

From what I can see, it wasn't explicitly mentioned in the changelog?

[x42bn6]

I'm sorry but you're not in a position to know what we do and how we do it, judging from your comments you are not familiar with how our coding team, how Sports Interactive or I would suggest any computer games company works. We really should not be encouraging hacking of our products - anyone that does so is actually in breach of the licensing agreement.

The way I understand this, is that to enable the advanced editor (in a previous patch or version), you had to edit an XML file. If this violates the EULA, why do threads like this thread (started by an SI employee, too) exist? Or why do we have the ability to edit skin XML files?

If editing a configuration file violates the EULA, you may as well shut down the Editors Hideaway... Plenty of tools there involve modifying some configuration files.

I do not have FM12 so do not have access to the EULA, but in FM08, at least, it says that SI merely owns the modifications too.

[Ackter]

What happens to the real issues that turn up in a game using an advanced database but then have to be dismissed because SI can't justify the time spent trawling through the code of what is, effectively, a hacked game?

The XML unpacker does not unpack the editor files for editing as far as I know.

Note that the thread you linked to is from 5 years ago when the FMF compiler (as I believe it's called) didn't exist.

[vasilli07]

Do I have to start a very low reputation league to get the sunday league footballer reputation? I normally only start the top 4 leagues of Europe.

[Ackter]

You can jump straight into the Manchester United job with a Sunday league reputation if you wish. Don't expect to win much, though.

[ThomasH]

After i have read this discussion

I can understand the view (Neils View) of SI belonging to the Advanced Panel - and i guess he is right

But intended or not :

I am glad that you at least are not so evil and completely have removed this "feature"

And HAIL to Magicmastermind the Great

[Frankchickens1]

I know this has been rasied a few times, but despite being top half of EPL i can still always ask for a parent club and never a feeder club, and I only have 2 feeder clubs atm

[x42bn6]

What happens to the real issues that turn up in a game using an advanced database but then have to be dismissed because SI can't justify the time spent trawling through the code of what is, effectively, a hacked game?

SI struggle to support that now, so it's not like much is going to change.

The XML unpacker does not unpack the editor files for editing as far as I know.

Note that the thread you linked to is from 5 years ago when the FMF compiler (as I believe it's called) didn't exist.

I'm not familiar with the newer tools, but isn't the column editing similar?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/279845-Customizing-views-%28columns%29-with-the-2012-Editor?p=7192440&highlight=column#post7192440

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/279805-Position-column-in-People-view

It involves the modification of a configuration file, which has been given the OK by an SI employee...

[Guest]

You can jump straight into the Manchester United job with a Sunday league reputation if you wish. Don't expect to win much, though.

Not too sure about that, Sunday league gives a rep of Regional (already checked myself) which will only be a problem at the very biggest clubs, I don't think it will cause too many problems when managing a mid-table Prem club

[Ackter]

SI struggle to support that now, so it's not like much is going to change.

I'm not familiar with the newer tools, but isn't the column editing similar?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/279845-Customizing-views-(columns)-with-the-2012-Editor?p=7192440&highlight=column#post7192440

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/279805-Position-column-in-People-view

It involves the modification of a configuration file, which has been given the OK by an SI employee...

The editing of certain XML files is fully supported - all of them apply to the skin (ie how information is presented to the user). These can be accessed using the FMF compiler which extracts the XML files and then recompiles them for the game to read.

This isn't what is happening in the case of the editor - the editor is being changed so that the database can be edited in ways that are not supported. I suppose the equivalent for the game itself would be opening up a button which allows you a new transfer option in addition to Transfer/Enquiry/Loan etc. I'm sure SI probably have a debug tool that allows transferring players immediately between clubs, and for that "feature" to be active would be similar to what is happening with the Advanced tab in the editor.

I may have got a bit muddled there but I'm sure you can work out what I'm trying to get across.

[Ackter]

Not too sure about that, Sunday league gives a rep of Regional (already checked myself) which will only be a problem at the very biggest clubs, I don't think it will cause too many problems when managing a mid-table Prem club

You're in for a nice shock, then.

[Guest]

You're in for a nice shock, then.

I doubt it, I've already posted about this in the bugs forum.

Created a new save & started as an unemployed manager with Sunday league experience, 1st job offer was from Go Ahead @ £1500pw because my rep was Regional.

This is also part of the save that allowed Barcelona & Villereal to be drawn in the same Champions League group, excellent work by the dev & testing teams.

I'm starting to think if SI need to scrap looking for coders with an interest in football & ask for avid followers of football with an interest in coding.

[Ackter]

Getting the job and getting the players to actually trust you are two very different things.

[Guest]

You're not listening are you? Regional rep is too high for Sunday League starting experience & will be on a par with if not greater than many of the players, there are 3 steps lower on the scale that have been skipped (local/obscure/unproven).

[x42bn6]

The editing of certain XML files is fully supported - all of them apply to the skin (ie how information is presented to the user). These can be accessed using the FMF compiler which extracts the XML files and then recompiles them for the game to read.

This isn't what is happening in the case of the editor - the editor is being changed so that the database can be edited in ways that are not supported. I suppose the equivalent for the game itself would be opening up a button which allows you a new transfer option in addition to Transfer/Enquiry/Loan etc. I'm sure SI probably have a debug tool that allows transferring players immediately between clubs, and for that "feature" to be active would be similar to what is happening with the Advanced tab in the editor.

I may have got a bit muddled there but I'm sure you can work out what I'm trying to get across.

I wasn't talking about the merits of SI supporting or not supporting games run off databases edited in this manner in that post.

That post was in response to:

We really should not be encouraging hacking of our products - anyone that does so is actually in breach of the licensing agreement.

I'm saying that enabling the advanced editor involves editing an XML file as well (as detailed here: http://fmupdates.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=72) - if this is against the EULA, most of the threads in the Editors Hideaway need to be deleted!

[cartman051]

I had played FM since this game came out and I am very disapointed with your work.I will never play this game again.and you lost one more customer.THANKS AND GOOD BY

[Ackter]

I wasn't talking about the merits of SI supporting or not supporting games run off databases edited in this manner in that post.

That post was in response to:

I'm saying that enabling the advanced editor involves editing an XML file as well (as detailed here: http://fmupdates.com/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=72) - if this is against the EULA, most of the threads in the Editors Hideaway need to be deleted!

And you're being deliberately obtuse to try and make a point, again.

The XML files that you are allowed to edit are made available using a tool SI provide.

The XML file needed to make the changes to the editor are not made available to you to edit. There is no SI-provided tool that allows you access to it.

Now I'm sure you're smart enough to understand the difference, but I'm also sure you're stubborn enough to dismiss this and move on to some other point that you will attempt to twist to support your agenda.

It gets very tiresome.

[Ackter]

I had played FM since this game came out and I am very disapointed with your work.I will never play this game again.and you lost one more customer.THANKS AND GOOD BY

Any feedback you'd care to give as to the reasons for your decision would be appreciated.

[Ackter]

You're not listening are you? Regional rep is too high for Sunday League starting experience & will be on a par with if not greater than many of the players, there are 3 steps lower on the scale that have been skipped (local/obscure/unproven).

The rep you are given when starting a new game should be "0" as a Sunday Leaguer, if it's not then yes, it's a bug.

How do the players at these teams actually react to you?

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Any feedback you'd care to give as to the reasons for your decision would be appreciated.

I think he did, here http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/291672-Football-Manager-12.1.0-update-*OFFICIAL*-Feedback-Thread?p=7407125#post7407125

[Ackter]

Can't tell if someone from SI has already answered or not, but it's outside of my knowledge base.

Best way to get an answer would be to bring it up in the bugs forum as then it won't get missed. It's easy to miss stuff in this thread.

[x42bn6]

And you're being deliberately obtuse to try and make a point, again.

The XML files that you are allowed to edit are made available using a tool SI provide.

The XML file needed to make the changes to the editor are not made available to you to edit. There is no SI-provided tool that allows you access to it.

Now I'm sure you're smart enough to understand the difference, but I'm also sure you're stubborn enough to dismiss this and move on to some other point that you will attempt to twist to support your agenda.

It gets very tiresome.

Isn't the Resource Archiver, that allows you to read .fmf files, bundled with FM12?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/279207-FM2012-Resource-Archiver

I'm just reading off this (I don't have FM12, after all) that tells me to enable the "adva" thingy, you just need to change an XML file... And to enable the debug menu and edit in-game rules, you can use the Resource Archiver, extract some files, then mess with them.

[Ackter]

Why did you delete the second part of your post?

The Resource Archiver is for unpacking the XML files that determine how skins display.

I direct you back to the Advanced Editor/Debug Transfer comparison I mentioned earlier.

[Guest]

The rep you are given when starting a new game should be "0" as a Sunday Leaguer, if it's not then yes, it's a bug.

How do the players at these teams actually react to you?

I always report issues that I find with the game & push the point even when the first response is 'there is no problem', to be honest I have not taken the game forward as I am trying to recreate the more serious issue of two Spanish sides getting drawn in the same CL group.

Most people will not even notice reputation but if folk start seeing their Manchester United side being drawn with Manchester City there would be all kinds of NSFW words used on the forum.

[x42bn6]

Why did you delete the second part of your post?

The Resource Archiver is for unpacking the XML files that determine how skins display.

I direct you back to the Advanced Editor/Debug Transfer comparison I mentioned earlier.

I've reworded it.

The post here suggests that all the files are available right now, and if you want to edit some competitions, you can extract comps.fmf using the bundled Resource Archiver and mess around with some settings.

I therefore don't know what you mean by "There is no SI-provided tool that allows you access to it.".

[Ackter]

Again, you're being obtuse and clearly just arguing for the sake of it - you've admitted you have no knowledge of what's involved so why are you still arguing?

I'm not actually going to waste any more time trying to explain this any further, it's pretty straight forward and I've already explained the differences to you.