Player stats should go?

With FM12 not far away, and every year new features are introduced that make it a bigger and better game, I wondered, how long is it until the only way to make it a more realistic game is to remove player stats and replace them with, or rely more on, scout reports, form, reputation, recommendation etc etc...

I'm not at all suggesting this should be in FM13 or that it's an awesome idea or whatever, just thought you guys would have some opinion on this

Perhaps an option to disable them, but not remove them altogether.

Bad idea. Its only a game not a full time job. Stats are there to simplify the gameplay.

Press conferences are in, despite much feedback, because they are "realistic". If that's the route to go down, then stat numbers really shouldn't exist at all.

You should be able to tell from watching players, scout and coach reports and actual statistics (such as pass completion etc.) whether the player's are the right player for you or not.

I wholeheartedly agree that it's time it was looked at and considered.

Yeah this is something that probably should be looked at going forward, however in my opinion the scouting and coaching feedback would need to be improved greatly to enable this.

you can already do this with a skin cant you?

Personally i hope they never remove the attributes, if they went down that road only i would walk away, of course choices are always good tho.

Press conferences are in, despite much feedback, because they are "realistic". If that's the route to go down, then stat numbers really shouldn't exist at all.

You should be able to tell from watching players, scout and coach reports and actual statistics (such as pass completion etc.) whether the player's are the right player for you or not.

I wholeheartedly agree that it's time it was looked at and considered.

I for one do feel that the stats can sometimes be misleading, there have been plenty of times where a player with drastically higher stats than another, just doesn't perform as well. But we still rely too heavily on the stats of the player. I realise it's just a game but as CP said, everyone asks for realism, so why not take it to the next stage of realism?

Stats =/= Attributes

I for one would not like this at all.

However, I think if you scout a player, the scout should only be able to give you an estimate of their stats. And the reliability of the stats would be down to how good the scout is.

This would mean I may have to scout a player for 4 or 5 matches to get a really good idea what their stats are. Even then I wouldn't know what they were until they were at he club for a few weeks after signing them.

Some stats should be masked, but there's no reason why you shouldn't know a few stats about a player through your scouting network. But not the exact stat number.

Unfortunately in the game the way it works now in the first transfer window. By the time you get your first Scout report, other teams are already bidding for players. How they got their reports in before you is mind-boggling.

It's probably the biggest non-realistic thing in the game these days.

When Alex Ferguson wonders who fits in his squad for match day best out of Carrick, Fletcher or Anderson I don't think he's sat there going "well, Carrick is a 17 at passing but has 2 less technique than Fletcher, but Anderson has better 3 better decision making but is two footed so actually his number are slightly different depending on the situation" And obviously the same when looking at purchasing a new player.

New and improved Scouting and coach reports are already being put in to FM12, I'd love to see these developed further and become implemented instead of player attributes.

I for one would not like this at all.

However, I think if you scout a player, the scout should only be able to give you an estimate of their stats. And the reliability of the stats would be down to how good the scout is.

This would mean I may have to scout a player for 4 or 5 matches to get a really good idea what their stats are. Even then I wouldn't know what they were until they were at he club for a few weeks after signing them.

Some stats should be masked, but there's no reason why you shouldn't know a few stats about a player through your scouting network. But not the exact stat number.

Unfortunately in the game the way it works now in the first transfer window. By the time you get your first Scout report, other teams are already bidding for players. How they got their reports in before you is mind-boggling.

That's no different to how things are now though. It's just the presentation of the data in a more realistic way.

You should already have a database of reports and knowledge (based on your staff) when you start a game. And yes, you would have to scout someone you didn't know anything about before deciding to sign them.

I'm not sold in all honesty I can understand the points of view, but the game relies on the attributes and stats are sometimes to determined by position, a ball winning DM who plays it short is going to have better pass completion than an AM trying the killer balls although the AM may actually be the better passer. The match engine would have to be improved it's hard to determine between a players finishing and composure or a players decisions by just watching. Things like determination would be found out through training but we can't really react with that, so is the coach just going to give us a number if he does why bother getting rid of it? I don't think the game as at a level where we can successfully manage without it.

I think this is the best way forward. Stats were there initially to make it easier to judge a player's ability. However, the most important stats are those that are hidden, which renders them a bit mute anyway.

With all the roles and mentality changes that were introduced in FM11, it's just made finding the right player for the right position even more convoluted.

They already have the answer in the polygons, they just need to be tweaked so that they can work in conjuncture with the player roles.

Removing them completely is not a good idea, an option to disable them and everybodys happy.

I like seeing the attributes, but it might just be cos I'm used to them. Attributes are only a rough guide anyway, there are plenty of players in my game who have fantastic attribute stats but are never anything more than average.

Removing them completely is not a good idea, an option to disable them and everybodys happy.

Why not a good idea?

I like seeing the attributes, but it might just be cos I'm used to them. Attributes are only a rough guide anyway, there are plenty of players in my game who have fantastic attribute stats but are never anything more than average.

Which surely makes the case that they're a bit pointless now?

The biggest problem I have with them (and I'm not going to say take them out, but certainly make polygons the default and give players the ability to switch back if they want) is that there are a great many players in the game who don't fit into any of the player roles, which makes using the new tactics system a bit hard also.

When they get scout reports, assistant feedback etc. spot on then (I would argue most) stats can be hidden, or a least a kind of relative scale. For example as manager I should have a good idea who is fastest in the squad... maybe we should have a scale like fastest in the squad, top 10 fastest.... best finisher etc. I can't see training and only some of matches... and so I can't know my players as well as a real manager would (for example I am sure Sir Alex knows roughly who Man Utds best finisher is from seeing them in training and matches). So some kind of feedback is necessary, probably from the Ass Man and coaches.

Until then I think the stats are important to kind have clue what is going on with your team.

Why not a good idea?

Some players don't want complete realism, its a game after all. I believe that some players will get fustrated very quickly with it if the attributes were not visible for self judging of players without scout reports. If they are removable by choice, then we have the best of both worlds, who wants to remove them can, who doesnt can leave them visible.

Good point mate. For this to happen, and I think it can and should, the scout reports and scouting network in general would have to be improved massively before this can be considered.

I believe in about 4-5 years time, this can definitely be an option.

I think making FM that hardcore would be a bit of a mistake TBH, at least as far as how else you're supposed to judge a player that is. It is a computer game after all.

I actually think it makes it easier rather than hardcore. You're taking a level of number crunching out of it and replacing it with higher level generic statements. In the same way that they changed the tactics from sliders with numbers to statements.

Personally I do better when I just use the polygons than when I try to use the attributes.

I've never used the polygons and never will.

Get rid of stats?? How would you know how many appearances players have made, or how many goals they have scored? Ridiculous idea.

If however you meant attributes, then I also disagree. Attributes are there to represent the things we can't see but a real manager could. He is out there on the training ground with them and can see that player X is very quick or that player Y is really aggressive. The attributes are there to represent this, and a quicker way than trawling through coach / scout reports.

If they didn't show up on screen, then surely this forum would be flooded with people saying coach / scout reports don't give us enough info, show us some numbers!

Get rid of stats?? How would you know how many appearances players have made, or how many goals they have scored? Ridiculous idea.

If however you meant attributes, then I also disagree. Attributes are there to represent the things we can't see but a real manager could. He is out there on the training ground with them and can see that player X is very quick or that player Y is really aggressive. The attributes are there to represent this, and a quicker way than trawling through coach / scout reports.

If they didn't show up on screen, then surely this forum would be flooded with people saying coach / scout reports don't give us enough info, show us some numbers!

What if the suggestion was in conjunction with improved coach and scout reports?

I still think polygons would be good enough.

Attacking, Technical, Creativity, Physical, Speed, Determination should be the points. That's all you really need - aside from different points for the goalkeepers and coaches, of course.

If they wanted, they could even make different polygons for GK, D, M, F.

I still think polygons would be good enough.

Attacking, Technical, Creativity, Physical, Speed, Determination should be the points. That's all you really need - aside from different points for the goalkeepers and coaches, of course.

If they wanted, they could even make different polygons for GK, D, M, F.

That's not going to help you know who to put on corners.

Player with good creativity. You can't take good free kicks without being creative - which is a problem I have with the "set pieces" and "Corners" attributes too.

But you're still having to interpret something in an unrealistic way. It's not really making the game more realistic by making them know who to put where based on the shape of some polygons as opposed to number crunching.

How about lines of text that says "this player is above average at taking penalties". Which you can then directly compare with another player in your team "This player is slightly better at taking penalties than the other player"

What if the suggestion was in conjunction with improved coach and scout reports?

Attributes right now are the equivalent of a very good coach / scout report.

Attributes right now are the equivalent of a very good coach / scout report.

I think they are too open to interpretation personally.

Also, why then have separate coach and scout reports that are done in a different way in the game? From a gaming point of view it doesn't make sense to have the same information delivered to you in different formats.

I play a mixed martial arts game and each fighter has a lot of different attributes but each one is rated from very poor, poor, below average, average, above average, strong, very strong and excellent. The more fights a fighter has the more attributes you uncover. I think any manager that goes into a club can get opinions from staff on how good the players are, I watch every Crewe home game and I can tell you if our striker is an average finisher or an excellent one.

I am not saying this is the route to go down but the only way I could play without player attributes would be if we were given some sort of idea of how good a player is. I wouldn't be against this if it was an option but it should not be forced onto people who don't have time to sit there and watch every match in full.

I agree it's finding a balance between realism and game enjoyment and to appeal to multiple play styles.

Unfortunately most of FM's game decisions have been more themepark than sandbox.