Liverpool's middle 3

[wige]

Just my two cents on the real life Liverpool and the roles of the midfielders. Personally feel for about 18 months now the job of the two wider CMs is to fill in the gaps on either side of the pitch when the fullbacks attack. That screenshot of the Sheffield United game above could have been taken in pretty much any game over this period. It changes slightly if a Keita, Ox or Lallana comes in, but even then you'll still see them drifting wide a lot. As possession is maintained and territorial dominance is established they'll move further up and support attacks but are generally deeper than the full backs. They're nearly always the deepest wide players when Liverpool lose the ball. 

Fabinho, or whoever the CM is, is not restricted in terms of pressing. They're often the first to engage centrally and will do so quite high up the pitch, sometimes as far as the opponents penalty box/D and certainly up to the oppositions side of the centre circle.

The defensive shape can quite quickly become a 4-4-1-1 with Mane deep on the left, Firmino dropping a bit centrally and the RCM moving to a traditional RM role, doubling up on both flanks and leaving Salah as the most advanced player. 

In previous iterations of FM (mainly 18) I've tended to go with CDM DLP, LCM B2B and RCM APM, with tweaks of Att/Def/Sup as necessary. 

I'd argue again recently that Trent is the primary playmaker in the team, especially when building through the defensive and midfield thirds. He essentially fills the same role as KDB does for City when he comes a bit deeper/wider - line breaking balls into the feet of the front 3 or APM, early/deep crosses and driving to the byline. 

No idea if it's possible to replicate all this in-game though, as said previously, it's a highly drilled approach and one that is flexible across and within games. You're likely to see a lot of positional rotation, switches of formation and changes of approach in terms of passing - possession, switching, direct/long balls - all depending on game state. 

I'll be beginning my LFC journey on FM20 tonight, so will see how it goes! 

[Gegenklaus]

@wige Really good points. Especially your thoughts on TAA being the KDB of Liverpool. It could be fun trying out a 4-4-1-1 with Salah a bit out wide as CF, Firmino as a number 10 - maybe as AM on support, Mane on the left as IW-a, with Robbo behind as a WB/CWB on support - TAA on the other side as CWB-a. Having doubts about the midfield roles. Maybe CM-D on the right side and Car or CM-s on the left. 

[LDP]

In my Liverpool save I am now using Wijnaldum/Keita as BWM support and Henderson/Ox/Keita as BBM and its working a treat

[LDP]

Just now, LDP said:

In my Liverpool save I am now using Wijnaldum/Keita as BWM support and Henderson/Ox/Keita as BBM and its working a treat

Oh, and of course Fabinho/Henderson in CDM role as DLP def

[cocoadavid]

I wanted to try my ideas in action about implementing Klopp's Liverpool's into FM, so I just started a save with Liverpool and I think I got the positioning of players spot on with a flat 4-3-3. The tactical familiarity is still far from perfect and I only played 1 match against Man City (won 2 - 0), but if you look at the pictures below, it looks promising.

Defensive shape

RL vs FM

You can see that the defensive shape is pretty similar, however the gap between the forwards and midfielders could be narrower in FM, I will try lowering the LOE or/and highering the DL.
When Pool defends in the opposition's or middle third, the central midfielder (usually Fabinho) often steps up to close down opponents, being higher up the pitch than the two other midfielders. In FM I could achieve this by instructing Fabinho to close down more.

 

Below an example from RL vs Barcelona, and next to it a screenshot vs ManCity where you can see that as soon as Fernandinho receives the ball, Fabinho starts his running to step further and press his opponent in the middle.



 

Attacking

A real life example already uploaded here by yonko vs FM attacking shape

Fabinho coming deep to get the ball, Roberston high up the pitch on the left, TAA playing a little deeper  on the right. There is a thing I really do not like in FM: I think that none of the supporting striker roles come as deep and as often as Firmino does in real life, I think SI should change the F9's off the ball movement in the ME. And I do not want to employ him in tha AMC strata,because when Pool plays a 4-3-3,  out of possession and pressing, he is the upfront man, defining the LOF.

Below an example of a really nice attakcing movement. My left forward's movement invites the opposition's right back inside, leaving a lot of space behind him. Fabinho plays a beautiful pass into that space, and Robertson runs onto it, then whips in a cross, and then Salah just have to tap it in. Goal.



 

And an example of an high press transition:

Here we press aggressively, my left sided forward (it would be Mané, but in this case it's Origi) comes deep to help out my carrilero (Wijnaldum), they both press B. Silva, they get the ball, and pass it forward instantly for Salah, who then scores from a 1on1 situation.

TACTIC

The tactic below is not the final version, this is just a first one I tried. I was really happy with the roles, duties, positioning and off the ball movement of the players, with one exception that I have already mentioned: Firmino. He just does not come as deep and as often as I'd like him to. It's also worth mentioning that Pool does not play the whole 90 minutes counterpressing and attacking, they do so periodically. Sometimes they slow down a little bit (well, slow down compared to themselves) and use a middle press, so it is impossible to copy their gameplan into one set of mentality and team instructions. I focus on implementing their 4-3-3 defensive shape (I know that is not the only one defensive shape they use in RL) and general attacking movement.




Added Player Instructions:

• TAA: cross more often
• Henderson: stay wider
• Fabinho: close down more
• Mané: move into channels, roam from position
• Firmino: close down more

It may look surprising to use Mané es a PF, but it really did work well with the added PIs. In RL he really does a lot of work defensively, and that suits the PF. In this match he sometimes drifted wide, sometimes moved into the channels, somtimes made runs onto throughballs, sometimes came deep, and he often helped out defensively.
I will look into experimenting with different Out Of Possession instructions and maybe adding Shorter Passes coupled with Be More Expressive and Higher Tempo (altough higher tempo may not be necessary with an attacking mentality.)
 

 

[Mitja]

My turn

Attacking, Flexible

 

                                                   PF-A

                                                                                                     IF-A 

IF-S                                                                          

                 CAR-S                                                       DLP-S

                                                  BWM-S

FB-A                                                                                                FB-A

         

                                   BPD-D                      CD-D

 

                                                SK-S

         

[Irn Rvd]

On 15/01/2020 at 13:09, Mitja said:

My turn

Attacking, Flexible

 

                                                   PF-A

                                                                                                     IF-A 

IF-S                                                                          

                 CAR-S                                                       DLP-S

                                                  BWM-S

FB-A                                                                                                FB-A

         

                                   BPD-D                      CD-D

 

                                                SK-S

         

What TIs would you use for this tactic?

[edwarf]

On 15/01/2020 at 18:27, cocoadavid said:

...

TACTIC

The tactic below is not the final version, this is just a first one I tried. I was really happy with the roles, duties, positioning and off the ball movement of the players, with one exception that I have already mentioned: Firmino. He just does not come as deep and as often as I'd like him to. It's also worth mentioning that Pool does not play the whole 90 minutes counterpressing and attacking, they do so periodically. Sometimes they slow down a little bit (well, slow down compared to themselves) and use a middle press, so it is impossible to copy their gameplan into one set of mentality and team instructions. I focus on implementing their 4-3-3 defensive shape (I know that is not the only one defensive shape they use in RL) and general attacking movement.

...
 

 

Excellent interpretation of how the Liverpool 4-3-3 system under Klopp. In regards to Firmino not coming deep, have you considered giving him the "Roam from position" PI?

Edited August 21, 2020 by edwarf
quoting post too long

[engamohd]

Klopp usually fields a 4-3-3 WIDE formation in defensive phase. This may differ if protecting a lead or some other exceptional circumstance, in which the team may defend in a 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2. 

My take on our main formation (based on my following of LFC and the analysis mentioned in the posts above) is as follows:

The two outer center mids (Hendo and Gini) are first and foremost required to cover for the wide defenders. They usually fan out wide and work hard. I didn't choose BBM due to the roam from position PI, in addition to the inherent Stay Wide PI that comes with the CAR.

It is well known that Robertson is more defensively accomplished than TAA, but overlaps Mane often. That is exactly what is written on the tin for the FB-A duty. TAA is give license to do everything, hence a CWB-S. Attack duty would be very irresponsible, which isn't TAA.

Fab sees a lot of the ball and pings passes all over the field, hence the DLP-D role.

Firmino is no doubt a F9, Mane an Inside Forward on support to give him more defensive responsibility, while I choose RMD for Salah since I see that he usually wanders looking for space, while his runs off the ball are very RMD style.

VVD gets a BPD on cover. He is always the last defender covering space, and making intelligent passes to the front three.

This just all theoretical, and I didn't test it, but might do so soon.

[Gegenklaus]

On 24/08/2020 at 21:54, engamohd said:

Klopp usually fields a 4-3-3 WIDE formation in defensive phase. This may differ if protecting a lead or some other exceptional circumstance, in which the team may defend in a 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2. 

My take on our main formation (based on my following of LFC and the analysis mentioned in the posts above) is as follows:

The two outer center mids (Hendo and Gini) are first and foremost required to cover for the wide defenders. They usually fan out wide and work hard. I didn't choose BBM due to the roam from position PI, in addition to the inherent Stay Wide PI that comes with the CAR.

It is well known that Robertson is more defensively accomplished than TAA, but overlaps Mane often. That is exactly what is written on the tin for the FB-A duty. TAA is give license to do everything, hence a CWB-S. Attack duty would be very irresponsible, which isn't TAA.

Fab sees a lot of the ball and pings passes all over the field, hence the DLP-D role.

Firmino is no doubt a F9, Mane an Inside Forward on support to give him more defensive responsibility, while I choose RMD for Salah since I see that he usually wanders looking for space, while his runs off the ball are very RMD style.

VVD gets a BPD on cover. He is always the last defender covering space, and making intelligent passes to the front three.

This just all theoretical, and I didn't test it, but might do so soon.

Really like the role and duty selection here. I think what is the hardest to replicate is the build up phase where you often see the outer mids take up the position that the fullbacks leave behind. This gives the fullbacks freedom to move up in mid in wide positions. It’s a move that is becoming more common in modern football and I hope it can maybe be something we can in the upcoming addition. 

I do agree that the midfield three’s first and foremost are there to give freedom to the fullbacks and front three to attack. They are key to the overall balance of the system. Things becomes more complicated when you in real life see one of the eights takes turn in going high up in their respective half space to pin the opposition defensive line when play is happening in mid. The fullback often TAA comes inside with freedom to make the line breaking pass. Though its impossible to replicate such fluidity in FM. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Gegenklaus

[engamohd]

7 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Things becomes more complicated when you in real life see one of the eights takes turn in going high up in their respective half space to pin the opposition defensive line when play is happening in mid.

I think this kind of movement can be replicated with Get Further Forward, Fluid team shape (by changing Robbo to WB-S) and the proper PPMs. Perhaps also Roam from Position PI.

 

7 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

The fullback often TAA comes inside with freedom to make the line breaking pass. Though its impossible to replicate such fluidity in FM. 

CWB has generally all the freedom a winger can have, but regarding that sweet diagonal cross field pass (which he does regularly, but does not over do it) perhaps More Direct Passing with Take More Risks PIs could replicate something like that? "Likes to Switch Ball to the Other Flank" PPM is deffo one TAA has and should replicate that pass.

[camoulton21]

Great post @engamohd! The tactic seems very faithful to Klopp's Liverpool although the biggest issue would be finding players that can replicate what Liverpool's players can do. Trent in particular is super unique in his ability to progress the ball with his passing but also create chances from his crosses and set pieces.

Can I offer a different take on Firmino's role. Whilst a False 9 role is by no means wrong and definitely describes the dropping off movements he makes I always feel as if the FM interpretation doesn't perfectly capture the type of False 9 he plays. Somebody like Messi in that role irl was mostly about getting turned and dribbling at the defence or attacking the box from deep whereas I see Firmino as more of a link man in the Liverpool attack as well as the first line of pressing. I think that the FM interpretation of a False 9 is more like how Messi played the role and therefore Firmino would work better as a DLF or PF on support, with the very important 'holds up ball' PI to stitch the attack around him together. I've never tested any of this so its all more of a theory than anything else. 

[irish kopite]

19 hours ago, engamohd said:

Klopp usually fields a 4-3-3 WIDE formation in defensive phase. This may differ if protecting a lead or some other exceptional circumstance, in which the team may defend in a 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2. 

My take on our main formation (based on my following of LFC and the analysis mentioned in the posts above) is as follows:

The two outer center mids (Hendo and Gini) are first and foremost required to cover for the wide defenders. They usually fan out wide and work hard. I didn't choose BBM due to the roam from position PI, in addition to the inherent Stay Wide PI that comes with the CAR.

It is well known that Robertson is more defensively accomplished than TAA, but overlaps Mane often. That is exactly what is written on the tin for the FB-A duty. TAA is give license to do everything, hence a CWB-S. Attack duty would be very irresponsible, which isn't TAA.

Fab sees a lot of the ball and pings passes all over the field, hence the DLP-D role.

Firmino is no doubt a F9, Mane an Inside Forward on support to give him more defensive responsibility, while I choose RMD for Salah since I see that he usually wanders looking for space, while his runs off the ball are very RMD style.

VVD gets a BPD on cover. He is always the last defender covering space, and making intelligent passes to the front three.

This just all theoretical, and I didn't test it, but might do so soon.

Interesting take on the formation. I do agree that in the defensive phase (as per photo above) that the midfield 3 is flat rather than a DM triangle.

In my most recent FM session a few weeks back, I tried a balanced mentality with higher tempo, higher DL with an offside trap. I might try a much higher DL with a higher LOE for compactness. VVD as a BPD-De and Gomez as a CB-De plus fewer risky passes. Robertson as a WB-A, TAA as a WB-S. When I get FM back up and running , I'm going to try TAA as a IWB-S with an overlap instruction. From memory, he has "runs down right with ball". Thanks to @Rashidi for this idea. That may create the interesting variety to his game as in real life.

PPMs wise I definitely agree on "switching play to other flank" for TAA. As has become fully obvious this season, TAA is more of a playmaker, Robertson more direct. Other PPMs that I might try for the FBs are "hit early crosses" for TAA, "get into opposition area" for Robbo, particularly if TAA has the switch play PPM. (For those who are interested, like me, and as I'm a believer in tactical trends being cyclical, the great side of the late 70s/ early 80s was similarly balanced on the flanks. Alan Kennedy was a direct quasi winger, Neal a more rounded footballer who similarly varied his game by drifting infield or staying wide to put a cross in. Maybe Klopp was inspired by Paisley! As an aside, I'd love to see @Rashidi interpretation of Paisley's system).

Midfield my role allocation was as per above, except Fabinho as a CM(D). Why?

The biggest issue I have with replicating present Liverpool (and also Dalglish btw) is Firmino getting bypassed by balls to the flanks. For this reason, I'm going to try fewer risky passes on the midfield 3. I want the ball either to get out wide to the FBs or into Bobby's feet, with Mane and Salah running beyond him. Mane as a IF-A and Salah as a RMD. I think I'm half ways there with Bobby as a DLF(S) with roam from position. In theory there should be plenty of space between a workmanlike midfield 3 and Salah and Mane. 

I want to create that diamond in  the middle and if I can get the ball into Bobby's feet on a regular basis, then I think that's the closest I can get to a replication.

What would the thoughts be on an extremely wide width to stretch the play for the FBs with focus through the middle to get the ball into Bobby's feet? 

[lfds89]

21 hours ago, engamohd said:

Klopp usually fields a 4-3-3 WIDE formation in defensive phase. This may differ if protecting a lead or some other exceptional circumstance, in which the team may defend in a 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2. 

My take on our main formation (based on my following of LFC and the analysis mentioned in the posts above) is as follows:

The two outer center mids (Hendo and Gini) are first and foremost required to cover for the wide defenders. They usually fan out wide and work hard. I didn't choose BBM due to the roam from position PI, in addition to the inherent Stay Wide PI that comes with the CAR.

It is well known that Robertson is more defensively accomplished than TAA, but overlaps Mane often. That is exactly what is written on the tin for the FB-A duty. TAA is give license to do everything, hence a CWB-S. Attack duty would be very irresponsible, which isn't TAA.

Fab sees a lot of the ball and pings passes all over the field, hence the DLP-D role.

Firmino is no doubt a F9, Mane an Inside Forward on support to give him more defensive responsibility, while I choose RMD for Salah since I see that he usually wanders looking for space, while his runs off the ball are very RMD style.

VVD gets a BPD on cover. He is always the last defender covering space, and making intelligent passes to the front three.

This just all theoretical, and I didn't test it, but might do so soon.

My take on this:

Some doubts about SK-A. I would say Allison is more a SK-S

Would probably go with IWB-S for TAA. IWB states he'll go inside if there's someone in front of him, so this should balance the inside/outside movements (with Salah and the RCM).

VVD, I would say is a Stopper. His aggressiveness stepping off the line is very important. The other CD, I would change to Defend.

Then Fabinho as CM-D or BWM-D. He sometimes tries the long range passes, but I wouldn't say he's the playmaker.

Then Firmino as PF-S

I have some doubts over Mane. He defends deeper than Salah, so I would be tempted so start him on the midfield line, probably as an IW.

About the TI's: Extremely High Tempo, I believe it's too exaggerated. That's like playing one-touch. Distribution could change from game to game. If their LWB is on attack, would probably try to go direct to Salah. And I would bring the LOE a bit down. Liverpool mostly presses the midfield line. Could never make it work on FM, but it should be a standard LOE and OI with no press on CBs and press on CMs/DMs. 

[engamohd]

10 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

Great post @engamohd! The tactic seems very faithful to Klopp's Liverpool although the biggest issue would be finding players that can replicate what Liverpool's players can do. Trent in particular is super unique in his ability to progress the ball with his passing but also create chances from his crosses and set pieces.

Can I offer a different take on Firmino's role. Whilst a False 9 role is by no means wrong and definitely describes the dropping off movements he makes I always feel as if the FM interpretation doesn't perfectly capture the type of False 9 he plays. Somebody like Messi in that role irl was mostly about getting turned and dribbling at the defence or attacking the box from deep whereas I see Firmino as more of a link man in the Liverpool attack as well as the first line of pressing. I think that the FM interpretation of a False 9 is more like how Messi played the role and therefore Firmino would work better as a DLF or PF on support, with the very important 'holds up ball' PI to stitch the attack around him together. I've never tested any of this so its all more of a theory than anything else. 

I agree that Firmino could be a DLF or a PF on support, he excels in both of these along with the F9 role. I may also take it further and put him as a SS in a strikerless formation. 

Such a wonderful player Bobby is <3

[engamohd]

4 hours ago, irish kopite said:

In my most recent FM session a few weeks back, I tried a balanced mentality with higher tempo, higher DL with an offside trap. I might try a much higher DL with a higher LOE for compactness. VVD as a BPD-De and Gomez as a CB-De plus fewer risky passes. Robertson as a WB-A, TAA as a WB-S. When I get FM back up and running , I'm going to try TAA as a IWB-S with an overlap instruction. From memory, he has "runs down right with ball". Thanks to @Rashidi for this idea. That may create the interesting variety to his game as in real life.

This is VERY interesting, the way I used IWB was to create another DM in attacking phase and unleash a winger forward. TAA definitely does not do this IRL, but in terms of variety, that PPM would make a very interesting combination. If you try it out please let us know how it goes.

 

4 hours ago, irish kopite said:

PPMs wise I definitely agree on "switching play to other flank" for TAA. As has become fully obvious this season, TAA is more of a playmaker, Robertson more direct. Other PPMs that I might try for the FBs are "hit early crosses" for TAA, "get into opposition area" for Robbo, particularly if TAA has the switch play PPM. (For those who are interested, like me, and as I'm a believer in tactical trends being cyclical, the great side of the late 70s/ early 80s was similarly balanced on the flanks. Alan Kennedy was a direct quasi winger, Neal a more rounded footballer who similarly varied his game by drifting infield or staying wide to put a cross in. Maybe Klopp was inspired by Paisley! As an aside, I'd love to see @Rashidi interpretation of Paisley's system).

 

I never had the chance to watch Paisely's Liverpool sadly, I wasn't into footy until late Houlier's Liverpool. Paisely's great side seem to be vibrant and attractive like Klopp's, wasn't it? 

Regarding TAA, the lad is generational, he does a bit of everything, which is hard to get right on FM. I currently use CWBs in my 5-3-2 formation, and the wingbacks cut inside often with and off the ball and roam a lot, playing a lot like TAA, without his 'playmaker' style passes. 

4 hours ago, irish kopite said:

The biggest issue I have with replicating present Liverpool (and also Dalglish btw) is Firmino getting bypassed by balls to the flanks. For this reason, I'm going to try fewer risky passes on the midfield 3. I want the ball either to get out wide to the FBs or into Bobby's feet, with Mane and Salah running beyond him. Mane as a IF-A and Salah as a RMD. I think I'm half ways there with Bobby as a DLF(S) with roam from position. In theory there should be plenty of space between a workmanlike midfield 3 and Salah and Mane. 

I believe that Firmino should have a playmaker role to attract the ball to him to feet, and for the exact reasons you say, I choose a F9 rather than a DLF. The workmanlike midfield is complemented with the DLP to offer some forward thinking passes either to Bobby or the Wingbacks. 

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, engamohd said:

Such a wonderful player Bobby is <3

Absolutely vital for how LFC play under Klopp. Both Salah and Mane would be easier to replace than Bobby, even though a layman would probably assume the opposite. 

[engamohd]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

Absolutely vital for how LFC play under Klopp. Both Salah and Mane would be easier to replace than Bobby, even though a layman would probably assume the opposite. 

He is hands down my favourite player of the team, and this is coming from an Egyptian . No one other than Messi offers what he does. Even Messi doesn't offer the sort of pressing Firmino offers. 

Hopefully Minamino can step up his game and offer a strong similar alternative to Firmino.

[Gegenklaus]

Klopp: "Mo Salah, world class, but not every day. Sadio Mane, world class, but not every day. Roberto Firmino, world class, pretty much every day."

Also my favorite player of the team - by far. Luckily he isnt the unsong hero anymore, he is widely recognized as Liverpool's most important player - both offensively and defensive (yes, without Bobby dictating the press, VVD and Gomez would be would have a lot more on their hands). It's kinda funny because if you look at most systems like this, the whole organization usually works around the number six. That position gives structure to the whole system. In Liverpool I would argue it is Bobby who does this. He strings everything together. 

Doesn't hurt that he has two goal machines on either side, two world class fullbacks wider, three well organized worker behind him and a defensive captain in the back. Really love how Klopp and the club have built this team.

[EnigMattic1]

OK, slightly off topic, but still relevant (I feel). Koeman wants to sign Gini, hypothetically, who would you guys get in to replace him? 

And, a little more off topic (but seeing as how we have just been talking about Bobby), who would you have to replace Mane should Barca come calling? 

Obviously, I'm talking about the FM world for replacements, but I am also curious as to real world opinions. 

[Gegenklaus]

On 29/08/2020 at 12:01, EnigMattic1 said:

OK, slightly off topic, but still relevant (I feel). Koeman wants to sign Gini, hypothetically, who would you guys get in to replace him? 

And, a little more off topic (but seeing as how we have just been talking about Bobby), who would you have to replace Mane should Barca come calling? 

Obviously, I'm talking about the FM world for replacements, but I am also curious as to real world opinions. 

If Gini leaves a player like Thiago could easily replace him - and would be an upgrade. He can play the number 8 and 6, has a great ability to aggressively defend and is better putting tempo into the passing game (first touch passes and so on). 
 

Mane is harder to replace as his dribbling game, speed, hard work and strength makes him quite a unique player. 

[engamohd]

On 29/08/2020 at 12:01, EnigMattic1 said:

OK, slightly off topic, but still relevant (I feel). Koeman wants to sign Gini, hypothetically, who would you guys get in to replace him? 

And, a little more off topic (but seeing as how we have just been talking about Bobby), who would you have to replace Mane should Barca come calling? 

Obviously, I'm talking about the FM world for replacements, but I am also curious as to real world opinions. 

If Gini leaves, I would like us to play a 4-2-3-1 with a complete striker up front (like Origi ), Salah, Mane and Firmino behind him in front of Fabinho and Thiago or Hendo. 

[Overmars]

I would go with this tactic in FM. Some things I might consider changing:

• Dropping Firmino to AMC. In truth, Mane and Salah are playing at least as advanced as him, but an F9 in FM should be close enough.
• Changing one of the BBMs to CM(s), maybe even with a hold position instruction. I do think of them more as BBMs, though, especially Henderson/Keita.
• Using attacking mentality. Either way, you need more direct passing and a higher tempo. You can get there with positive or attacking mentality.
• I thought about using a DM, but the midfield three spreads out better in FM this way, which is more representative of Liverpool. They rarely drop a player next to Van Dijk and instead rely on VVD to cycle possession.

 

[poma]

7 hours ago, Overmars said:

I would go with this tactic in FM. Some things I might consider changing:

• Dropping Firmino to AMC. In truth, Mane and Salah are playing at least as advanced as him, but an F9 in FM should be close enough.
• Changing one of the BBMs to CM(s), maybe even with a hold position instruction. I do think of them more as BBMs, though, especially Henderson/Keita.
• Using attacking mentality. Either way, you need more direct passing and a higher tempo. You can get there with positive or attacking mentality.
• I thought about using a DM, but the midfield three spreads out better in FM this way, which is more representative of Liverpool. They rarely drop a player next to Van Dijk and instead rely on VVD to cycle possession.

 

Any specific Pi's more than "change one BBM to CM support with hold position" or other tweaks?

Edited August 31, 2020 by poma

[Overmars]

13 hours ago, poma said:

Any specific Pi's more than "change one BBM to CM support with hold position" or other tweaks?

For FM20 purposes, I would tell the AML/AMR and DL/DR to cross to the far post. I would also manually set the front three to close down more, tackle harder, and mark tighter.

[EnigMattic1]

Kinda related to this thread, kinda not but I will ask here and start a new thread if it warrants it. 

Seeing posts from @Overmars and @engamohd with a flat midfield 3 got me thinking, could a narrow, flat 4-3-3 work for Liverpool?

Looking at it now, I will end up starting a separate thread but I'm just curious as to opinions here first. 

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, EnigMattic1 said:

could a narrow, flat 4-3-3 work for Liverpool?

Well, that's the formation they mostly play in real life. However, it is certainly trickier to set up in FM than the 4123 wide. Which is probably why most people use the 4123 wide when trying to replicate Klopp's LFC. 

[Gegenklaus]

On 13/09/2020 at 23:47, Experienced Defender said:

Well, that's the formation they mostly play in real life. However, it is certainly trickier to set up in FM than the 4123 wide. Which is probably why most people use the 4123 wide when trying to replicate Klopp's LFC. 

No most people use the standard 4-3-3 wide because that emulates the movement of the wide attackers best - since their starting positions is somewhat wide for then to surge into the half spaces. Though @cocoadavid showed with his tactic how you can emulate their defensive shape by using a three striker formation. 

But its a bit tedious discussing real life formation as it changing constantly during different phases. I have been tinkering with a 4-4-1-1 that is inspired by Liverpool's use of TAA.

[engamohd]

On 13/09/2020 at 23:47, Experienced Defender said:

Well, that's the formation they mostly play in real life. However, it is certainly trickier to set up in FM than the 4123 wide. Which is probably why most people use the 4123 wide when trying to replicate Klopp's LFC. 

I differ about that real life formation is 3 striker. Since the tactical screen formation in FM is the defensive positioning of the team, Salah and Mane are certainly wide forwards while defending, and may drop to a 4411 if Pool gets more conservative. While attacking, I agree Salah, Mane and Bobby form a 3 striker shape.