[Discussion] Attacking football - the struggle we all have to deal with

[Armistice]

Hello, so in the last few weeks I focused on creating a tactic that's being able to break stubborn defences on a more regular basis, while keeping things simple and basic. Why simple and basic? After over-complicating myself with so much info that was probably more bad than good, I started to overthink every move the players make on the field and was chopping and changing things very often, also got a lot of concepts mixed around my head, like overloads, and would go crazy when things weren't going my way, so I tried to start from scratch again and try to build something basic and effective at the same time. Not caring about possession, not caring about pressing, just simple short-passing attacking football.

Now, we already have a thread around the forum that's called Art of Attacking football, made by @Cleon and he also presented the basic attacking principles you need to remember when looking to create an attacking football tactic.

I also googled "Attacking football principles" to read more about this and find more practical example of these principles. I'm going to simply list them here.

 

Quote

 

The principles of attack will help a team in possession of the ball react to any situation during soccer. These principles apply regardless of the system of play and formation played by the team, and they will always apply, no matter how the game evolves. The principles of attack apply when a team is looking to keep possession of the ball, move the ball forward into an attacking position and create chances to score a goal. Principles of attack include the following:

1. Penetration

 

2. Support

 

3. Width

 

4. Mobility

 

5. Improvisation and creativity

 

 

These diagrams are self-explanatory imo, but in my experience, it is harder to translate these principles in FM than it looks. Also, taking a quote out of Cleon's Art of Attacking Football, "Another thing I’d like to touch upon is the actual shape you use. If you use a top-heavy formation then in order to create space and movement how do you achieve it? Well think about how the players are positioned and because you are top-heavy, it’ll be deep in the opposition’s half. This means movement will be hard to come by especially against a side who is deep. So you need to be aware of this with the duty and role section you use. You’d likely need some of the players to drop deeper in order to run from deep or create from deep. If not they can be too high up the pitch to be really effective. The less space someone has to play or move in then the more it relies on a moment of individual brilliance for them to influence the game."

* You can read more here:

https://community.sigames.com/topic/367730-the-art-of-attacking-football/

So you have to take into consideration the formation you use, the basic attacking principles, but also Shape plays its part in it. Going with a top-heavy formation, an aggressive Mentality and a more Fluid Shape will lead to more congestion and therefore less space for your players.

 

So how do you people go about your business when you creating an attacking football tactic?

[summatsupeer]

I'm not sure what you expect to "discuss"?  Whatever style you play should have a plan on how to attack, which should involve exploiting space, the main issue is where do teams give you space and how can use it to create a chance?  A team that pushes high and leaves space behind gives opportunities for quick attacks and clear chances since if you succesfully attack that space there are very few players between you and the goal.  In this case "quantity" is typically better to attack the space before its lost.  A team that sits deep is harder to attack since the space is further away from there goal with more defenders in the way, so you have to use that space to create space closer to their goal.  In this case I think "quality" is more important.

Another point i'd like to make is about penetration which most people think means having "runners" pushed up playing on the shoulder and "creators" plaything through balls / passes into space / risky passes (all the same thing).  But that is a very focused form of passing penetration, you can also penetrate by a player dribbling past a defender causing a cascading effect of other defenders having to cover the beaten teammate and engage the ball carrier.  Telling your team to play fewer risky passes doesn't mean its all passes to feet, it just means they'll wait for a higher quality chance before trying one.  If you have players looking to collect the ball to there feet, drawing defenders out a simple pass and run or dribble past that defender can create space rather than just trying to thread through balls through the eye of a needle over and over.

Finally, the games advice on tactics is a bit sketchy (putting it nicely).  If your on Attacking mentality it will tell you to use many attack duties because your using a forward thinking mentality you need to get players forward to give options but it doesn't take into account your formation, roles or instructions.

[Ji-Sung Park]

1 hour ago, Armistice said:

So how do you people go about your business when you creating an attacking football tactic?

I do love me a good attacking style formation, but in FM there are a few issues (IMO) related to the attacking mentality:

1. The behavior of the defenders. On an attacking mentality they will, regardless of TI's/PI's/PPM's, hoof the ball forward once they get it. 
2. Rushed finishing when there's an obvious and easy pass/assist to make.

These two factor will become more apparent if your tactic is unbalanced/flawed, but still I feel that this should be tweaked slightly in future releases.

If you can live with these factors you'll have some great times with attacking mentality formations.

[Armistice]

43 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I'm not sure what you expect to "discuss"?  Whatever style you play should have a plan on how to attack, which should involve exploiting space, the main issue is where do teams give you space and how can use it to create a chance?

Yes you're right but this is the case of creating and exploiting the space against stubborn defensive sides, this is where most of us still having issues. Also, by "discuss" I mean "hey this is how/why my players drag defenders around, this is how my players are then exploiting the space created by others" and stuff like that. Anyone's free to contribute to this in any way they can.

[FMunderachiever]

Managers in real life dont find perfect balances of attack and defence except those winning trophies and those overachieving for short periods.

Just play the game and make little changes as it develops.

Couldnt imagine having a wife, a kid and full time job, and then sitting there drawing out diagrams and stuff, jeeeeeeeez.

Just play, put players in logical positions with a few instructions, and watch the game. Then adjust.

 

[A.Pierfrancesco]

2 hours ago, Armistice said:

So you have to take into consideration the formation you use, the basic attacking principles, but also Shape plays its part in it. Going with a top-heavy formation, an aggressive Mentality and a more Fluid Shape will lead to more congestion and therefore less space for your players.

Actually this is a bit misleading.

You can create a top-heavy formation with Very-Fluid shape and Attacking mentality, it depends on how you want to attack and how you balance the shape and the mentality with player's duty. In general what you want to do against a stubborn defenses is to stretch the pitch and creates overloads. Going full attack is not a good idea. 

[plcarlos]

Watching this thread with interest.

I use a 4231 mainly, but when teams are deep i struggle a bit. I'm considering trying a 3rd tactic on counter\structured to mitigate that.

[BadanieLuck]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Armistice:

So how do you people go about your business when you creating an attacking football tactic?

I give you my sight on how to play against a low block and not attacking football in general. Attacking football can be played in so many ways and at the end of the day, it only comes down to how you want to play + which players you have. I too struggled at the beginning when playing against low blocks. Not because I didn't know how it generally works in football, but I didn't know how to translate it into the ME. But after some practice, experience and understanding how the roles work, I developed myself a formula which gives me great results. These are the principles/points I follow..

1. Patience: I never play a higher mentality than Standard (sometimes Control). Why? Breaking down a low block takes time. Mentality in the game is all about intent. A higher mentality tells the players "you need to attack", "you need to make things happen", but that is counterproductive against a low block and will result in rushed shots and poor decisions. Why should players make more forward runs if there is no space to attack, so raising the mentality has no effect. There is no space, so you have to create it yourself. That does not mean playing slowly. In fact, I raise the tempo using the TI to give the opposition less time to reorganise and to penetrate a opening gap quickly should the opportunity arise. Add shorter passing to this and work ball into the box to decrease the number of turnovers.

2. Width: As I said, there is no space, you have to create it. Width will stretch the opposition vertically (horizontal comes later). Runners from deep won't make runs or won't receive the ball in good advanced positions if there isn't enough space for them to be effective. Stretching the opposition vertically increases the gaps between the players and forces the opposition to cover more ground. More gaps will open up.

3. Duties: Balance is the key here. Duties are about intent as well. As I said in my first point, too much attacking intent is counterproductive. Low blocks sit very deep, not much room to make runs behind the defence. Lets say I play a 4123 or a 4231. How many attack duties would I use against a low block? 2, max. 3. Most of them will be on support, some on defend. Many support duties, a higher tempo keeps the ball flowing quickly across the whole pitch. Opportunities will arise. Against a low block, you need to pull players out of position and there is no better way than a player receiving the ball. They have to close him down, follow him or try a sliding tackle and there it is, the opening you have been waiting for. Players on support duty will take these opportunities, they will make these runs. If the space is there, they go for it almost as much as a player on attack duty. It's even in the description of support duties "when the opportunity arises".

4. Roles: I talked about stretching them vertically, now lets talk about horizontally. Have players in deeper positions, who regularly receive the ball. This can either be done using a DLP on defend or by using retain possession and DMs to increase the number of passes to the back. Your players reposition themself, offer him support (they are on support for a reason). The oppositons will follow, the midfield pushes higher creating more space between midfield and defense lines. They are stretched horizontally. The same can be done with Wingbacks. On Support they will move further forward, but not too much. They are a good passing option and when receiving the ball, they create the same effect as a DM on the ball would do. If the gap occurs, it won't be huge or open for long, you need a player who can pick that pass. So by principle, I always use an Advanced Playmaker (or any other player with More Risky Passes) against a low block. His good vision and passing will take advantage of that small window.

These principles are appliable to every formation and almost every team and have given me decent results.

[BadanieLuck]

One more thing to add..

5. Look for overloads. I always slightly adapt my team to the opposition I play against. Lets say you face a 442, counter it with a 4123/4231. This will outnumber their midfield and you always have a player free. Or you face a 5212/523 narrow, use Wingers and Wingbacks/Fullbacks to outnumber them on the wings. (But always be aware of counter attacking threats)

[herne79]

5 hours ago, Armistice said:

Going with a top-heavy formation, an aggressive Mentality and a more Fluid Shape will lead to more congestion and therefore less space for your players.

There is no "will".

It may lead to those things if you're treating each component part of your overall system in isolation from each other, but there is no "will".  And I think this may be what you're struggling to come to grips with overall - looking at things in isolation rather than considering the overall whole.

I have this mantra that I keep banging on about and something that I bear in mind whenever I create a new system - the player roles and duties you select define player behaviour.  Everything else modifies that behaviour.  Stop and think about what that means for a moment.  And then consider that when I say "everything else", that's what I mean - different players with different attributes & PPMs will play the same role differently; Mentality and Team Shape will alter player behaviour; TI's, PI's, OI's, ohmy's will also change things.  Hell even your formation can change how roles behave.  And all of that's before we get onto things such as morale, tactical familiarity and fitness.

But that's all starting to sound a bit complicated, especially if you don't really understand things like Team Shape and how it modifies player behaviour.  (imo none of it is actually complex so long as you stop and take your time over things).

So I'll TL;DR this whole thread into just two words:  Creativity; Variety.  Those two words can help you break down any side, not just defensive ones.

Creativity and Variety can take many forms.  Perhaps most simplistically (and very effectively) are different players and different roles/duties.  Substitute on a more creative player (eg., more Flair, Vision, Dribbling, Pace or PPMs) to help unlock the defence.  Or alter a role or two, so instead of your AF knocking his head against the defensive wall have him drop deep instead, while you also change a winger or attacking midfielder to get into the box and take advantage of the space vacated.  Or change your two IF's into something designed to give you variety on the wings.  Or change your two wingers to stop pumping in useless crosses.  Or bring a fullback more into play.  Or a hundred other different ideas.

But first and foremost get to grips with creating a core, sound tactical system which combines well together.  Read roles descriptions, understand the default Player Instructions, and use the individual player mentality bar which you find in the PI screen to help you appreciate how each player will behave.  Then, when you start layering on all the tactical instructions stop and look to see how those instructions may be changing your player's behaviour (for example that mentality bar can give you big clues).  And get to know your players - consider how their own attributes may compliment (or not) what you are trying to achieve.

[Cleon]

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

There is no "will".

It may lead to those things if you're treating each component part of your overall system in isolation from each other, but there is no "will".  And I think this may be what you're struggling to come to grips with overall - looking at things in isolation rather than considering the overall whole.

I have this mantra that I keep banging on about and something that I bear in mind whenever I create a new system - the player roles and duties you select define player behaviour.  Everything else modifies that behaviour.  Stop and think about what that means for a moment.  And then consider that when I say "everything else", that's what I mean - different players with different attributes & PPMs will play the same role differently; Mentality and Team Shape will alter player behaviour; TI's, PI's, OI's, ohmy's will also change things.  Hell even your formation can change how roles behave.  And all of that's before we get onto things such as morale, tactical familiarity and fitness.

But that's all starting to sound a bit complicated, especially if you don't really understand things like Team Shape and how it modifies player behaviour.  (imo none of it is actually complex so long as you stop and take your time over things).

So I'll TL;DR this whole thread into just two words:  Creativity; Variety.  Those two words can help you break down any side, not just defensive ones.

Creativity and Variety can take many forms.  Perhaps most simplistically (and very effectively) are different players and different roles/duties.  Substitute on a more creative player (eg., more Flair, Vision, Dribbling, Pace or PPMs) to help unlock the defence.  Or alter a role or two, so instead of your AF knocking his head against the defensive wall have him drop deep instead, while you also change a winger or attacking midfielder to get into the box and take advantage of the space vacated.  Or change your two IF's into something designed to give you variety on the wings.  Or change your two wingers to stop pumping in useless crosses.  Or bring a fullback more into play.  Or a hundred other different ideas.

But first and foremost get to grips with creating a core, sound tactical system which combines well together.  Read roles descriptions, understand the default Player Instructions, and use the individual player mentality bar which you find in the PI screen to help you appreciate how each player will behave.  Then, when you start layering on all the tactical instructions stop and look to see how those instructions may be changing your player's behaviour (for example that mentality bar can give you big clues).  And get to know your players - consider how their own attributes may compliment (or not) what you are trying to achieve.

Also worth adding to this great post that space is always there no matter what. In a top heavy formation it will just be in a different place, likely behind the attacking players. But space doesn't change and it always exists. It's just under certain circumstances, that space can be in different places i.e in front of the oppositions defence, behind the defence, out wide etc. Hence why sometimes it might be better to have an attacking player on a support duty if possible so he drops slightly deeper and picks up this space. And sometimes the reverse is true and you need someone on attack to use the space.

[Armistice]

I think some of you misunderstood me, I'm not exactly the type of a player who deploys AF and two IF-A in the same set-up then bangs his head against the wall. I'd like to think that I create, most of the times, decently balanced tactics, obviously can be subjected to one or two changes; sometimes when I create a tactic, the stereotypes are at fault. What I mean by stereotypes is that I'm thinking "hey so I saw that guy try that role and duty in a similar set-up to mine and it worked for him, so I should try that too", which is something you might see in those guides out there and after a while people asking why their tactic is not working anymore. That's a flaw and I admit to it, I'm trying to get rid of this pattern of thinking.

As you said Cleon in the above post, space might be behind the attacking players in some specific situations, sometimes in other places, but it's not quite that easy to spot it during games and furthermore, to exploit it, as words make it to look like. Okay, maybe more game time will teach me and other players who are willing to learn how to spot these patches of untouched grass. I'll give you a short example, I have employed this Control-Flexible 4-4-1-1 against a low block 4-4-2, I wanted the striker to drop deep and hold the ball, DLF (A), I wanted AMC to drop deep too, to get the ball from the two CMs (then I tried AP-A)), I had a winger who provided width (W-A), I had a fullback who provided width on the other side of the pitch, just behind an attacking IF. But most of the times my attacking players were so outnumbered by their low block that the central trio couldn't pick a man for a pass. Needless to say that my winger was sitting more like in channels rather than wide, likewise my attacking fullback. So in that case, how could I have done? The players who are there to provide width were pretty narrow, they might run wide with the ball, but if they won't be able to pick the ball in the first place, it will be useless. So my players resorted to long shots soon after the start of the second half.

[yonko]

How is the DLF dropping deep if he's on Attack duty? Especially in Flexible shape. If you want someone to drop deep from their line, then use Support duty. If you want someone to take advantage of that space crated, then use Attack duty from the line bellow or from the side. Furthermore, if you want your striker to drop deeper and your AMC to drop deeper, then why use a Winger? Who is he crossing to? And how is that a balanced tactic?

You can't have both the ST and AMC dropping deep to unlock a deep defending team. You have to pick who drops and who threatens the defense to get on the end of crosses and through balls. Who creates space and who uses it (and how too)?

Furthermore, the solution against deep defending teams is not just creating penetration through movement between the lines. You can also stretch the defense with wide play. 

[Armistice]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

How is the DLF dropping deep if he's on Attack duty? Especially in Flexible shape. If you want someone to drop deep from their line, then use Support duty. If you want someone to take advantage of that space crated, then use Attack duty from the line bellow or from the side. Furthermore, if you want your striker to drop deeper and your AMC to drop deeper, then why use a Winger? Who is he crossing to? And how is that a balanced tactic?

You can't have both the ST and AMC dropping deep to unlock a deep defending team. You have to pick who drops and who threatens the defense to get on the end of crosses and through balls. Who creates space and who uses it (and how too)?

Furthermore, the solution against deep defending teams is not just creating penetration through movement between the lines. You can also stretch the defense with wide play. 

I used an attacking IF to take advantage of the DLF dropping deep. But as you said on attack duty, the DLF might not drop deep very often (or at all?) and I know it, the reason I used it honestly was because I saw someone else use it in their deep 4-2-3-1 and because he would push the opponent’s defenders to give AMC more room on the ball. The winger should keep the width and beat his man before crossing from byline.

Anyway, considering the same formation, 4-2-3-1 and considering changing the DLF duty to support, having an IF-A wouldn’t go too well with an attacking midfielder on attack since they attack the same space. It wouldn’t go well with a support AMC either as you just said. And if I then decided to change the IF duty to support, it would leave my AM the only attacking threat which is also not enough from what I read. So tell me how you’d approach this?

[yonko]

21 minutes ago, Armistice said:

I used an attacking IF to take advantage of the DLF dropping deep. But as you said on attack duty, the DLF might not drop deep very often (or at all?) and I know it, the reason I used it honestly was because I saw someone else use it in their deep 4-2-3-1 and because he would push the opponent’s defenders to give AMC more room on the ball. The winger should keep the width and beat his man before crossing from byline.

Anyway, considering the same formation, 4-2-3-1 and considering changing the DLF duty to support, having an IF-A wouldn’t go too well with an attacking midfielder on attack since they attack the same space. It wouldn’t go well with a support AMC either as you just said. And if I then decided to change the IF duty to support, it would leave my AM the only attacking threat which is also not enough from what I read. So tell me how you’d approach this?

Your first paragraph shows that you copy from others while misunderstanding their set up and what does it actually do. DLF-A pushes the defense back and provides space to the AM-S (Cleon used this in his deep 4231 thread) - he didn't use AP-S on purpose. His ST role wasn't intended to drop deep at all, it was to provide presence int the box and occupy defenders. His other threat was the IF-A from the left. So he has two players on attack duty to attack through balls and crosses to score goals. His suppliers? AM-S and Winger-Support, plus VOL-Attack from deeper. 

You can have your DLF on Support dropping deep and creating space for two players to attack it - IF-A and AM-A. The Winger then also needs to be on Support as supplier. Then you can use DLP-D and DLP-S (with more risky passes instruction).

[Armistice]

8 hours ago, yonko said:

Your first paragraph shows that you copy from others while misunderstanding their set up and what does it actually do. DLF-A pushes the defense back and provides space to the AM-S (Cleon used this in his deep 4231 thread) - he didn't use AP-S on purpose. His ST role wasn't intended to drop deep at all, it was to provide presence int the box and occupy defenders. His other threat was the IF-A from the left. So he has two players on attack duty to attack through balls and crosses to score goals. His suppliers? AM-S and Winger-Support, plus VOL-Attack from deeper. 

You can have your DLF on Support dropping deep and creating space for two players to attack it - IF-A and AM-A. The Winger then also needs to be on Support as supplier. Then you can use DLP-D and DLP-S (with more risky passes instruction).

Initially I didn't use an AP-S (it was AM-S), I used an AP later but on attack duty. Anyway I see your point, fair enough, so where should I start re-building then? I mean in general, not in this particular case.

With that being said I hoped this wouldn't turn into a discussion about my own struggles with tactics, I hoped it stayed as a general POV and how players do their homework.

[Rashidi]

I am planning a blog post and a thread here where I deal with analysing your tactic. I did a preliminary post on @herne79Poacher thread about determining good shots. I will expand on this further but there is a lot more that goes into analysing a tactic.

You need to assess how your team does its penetrations against the kind of chances it creates inside the box, because at the end of the day, if you aren’t creating good chances inside the box, then an unbeaten streak could potentially be misleading.

[Rashidi]

@Cleon and @herne79 have already made posts so I will just add on to what they have said.

Any formation you create can attack space. It’s always there. You can either find space or make space. The best tactics do this with a combination of defensive lines and roles and duties.

My personal way of playing is about moving the ball around with purpose, possession is important only as far as allowing me to create space to attack into. So there will be some roles that stay close together while others may be staying wide to attack these spaces. Knowing what roles and which players to pick becomes important. I have done enough videos on overloading so I won’t beat this point to death.

Here we need to be aware of how the ball moves from defense to a final attempt on goal. Understanding transition points becomes vital. Your team has two main transition points in midfield. Consolidation and Penetration. The former can last through 15 passes and the latter is usually only one pass before an assist.

Here the goal of any good system is identifying these transitions and spotting if things are working. If your consolidation phase is not working, check roles and duties and player selection. Either there aren’t enough players in support or they aren’t good  enough. 

Once this phase is sorted you need to see if you can trigger the transition phase. This is where those players in space are important. Are they wide enough? Are your players looking for them. They should if they aren’t, you need to identify why. 

Once this phase is sorted then you should look at the quality of chances you create. Here this could be affected by how long you took to get to the penetration phase. Too long and your players may be under pressure resulting in poor attempts. Too quick and your players may be isolated without enough in support. Finding the right balance is vital.

Eventually you will assess your type of chances, if you can do all these well, you will produce more quality chances.

[yonko]

8 hours ago, Armistice said:

Initially I didn't use an AP-S (it was AM-S), I used an AP later but on attack duty. Anyway I see your point, fair enough, so where should I start re-building then? I mean in general, not in this particular case.

With that being said I hoped this wouldn't turn into a discussion about my own struggles with tactics, I hoped it stayed as a general POV and how players do their homework.

Start re-building what? You need to understand the Attacking concepts and how to set them up in FM. You have to create variety in Attack - multiple ways to create chances, through multiple sources for more than one player. There also has to a balance of course. There have been many great threads in the last couple years about that. @Cleon @herne79 @Rashidi and @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! have written great ones. You need to read them and understand what they are talking about, and why does it work. 

Ask yourself:

- who is going to score the goals

- who is going to create the chances for these goals

- how are the suppliers going to create the chances for the scorers

- how many players are going to participate in the process

- what are the rest of players going to do to provide balance to the tactic

Personally, I try to go for 2 players as scorers and 2 or 3 as providers/suppliers. One of them can be a hybrid between a scorer and supplier, depending on the player (his attributes and PPMs). Then I have 2 or 3 players that defend - that's all they do, defend and win back the ball. The rest provide balance and support both ways - in attack and in defense.

 

Start by thinking big picture. How is the whole team going to play in Attack? And then think about who will play what role/part in that? How are these parts going to work together/complement each other? 

[Armistice]

There is no hope for me. I’m so tired of this. Nothing works.

[afailed10]

3 hours ago, Armistice said:

There is no hope for me. I’m so tired of this. Nothing works.

Don't forget, FM is still like older FMs and CMs. Individual mentality is still there but we just don't see it that easily. 

It's very important to check the highlights and see individual mentality on the field. What is working and what is not, most tactical issues can be explained by mentality.

Say, i have a 3 man midfield triangle. 2 CM, one attack and another holding on defend. The DM is a regista and the player i build my team around. He's the one dictating the game from deep and making everything tick. Now, sometimes the opposition fields an AMC so my regista is now too busy handling him and my team's offensive prowess halves. One possible solution is moving the regista into a CM role and the CM (d) into a defensive DM instead.

Another frequent mistake is not reading the role description properly. I myself was guilty of not understanding, visually, how different an inside forward plays to a winger. It could make an huge difference, things like this, because my IF was getting the ball and just running with it towards the middle where 2 or 3 defensive mids were already waiting. In this case i needed  to understand, again visually (during highlights), if it was good that the IF would pick the ball so early in the attack transition, with no one from the team around.

Lastly, individual mentality is key. In my regista - CM(d) - CM(a) trio, sometimes i notice the CM(a) takes too long to attack the space and will linger around the other two when the attacking transition starts instead of running up the pitch to create space and another passing outlet for the playmaker behind. One possible solution is changing either mentality or lowering fluidity. Higher mentality means more risk, so player's overall mentality increases and so does their risk factor. Which then means they also start a transition earlier instead of waiting for the ball to be well up in opposition half. Changing mentalities will also change many other things though and so does fluidity.

Another possible reason for different functioning of a role are pairings. In my understanding, a role may play differently depending on which roles are nearby or, in this case, if the CM(a) is in a midfield of two or three. Moving the Regista one slot up to RPM and then a 3 man midfield could make the CM(a) venture forward earlier and make the system tick again without changing overall mentality or fluidity.

I have to sleep but i'll take a look at your tactic later. Post some analysis or screenshots from transitions if you can as well.

[Armistice]

There is no point. I tried everything for years now and nothing worked. Why put effort in it when the end product is the same?

[Cleon]

37 minutes ago, Armistice said:

There is no point. I tried everything for years now and nothing worked. Why put effort in it when the end product is the same?

Because the end product is created by you, still over complicating things by over thinking. The common issue is you and how you think. Even when you say you are keeping things simple, you aren't really and still over analyse and complicate your thinking.

If you read the role descriptions this is enough to let you know what the role should be doing and how it functions. So if you use a winger for example, you'd know they focus on putting crosses into the box. This then means you need players in the box to get on the end of the chances. If you don't have people getting in the box, then why even use that as a role. You have to think about the game in the simplest possible way and focusing on things like that.

But if the game is frustrating you that much and you can't create a simple tactic that works maybe you should stop playing. Or take a break and get your head clear from information overload. Then if you want to play it again, keep everything basic and stop falling down the same holes that you've been going for the last 2 years. Only you can break the same routine you keep going over and over. No amount of discussions, guides, help etc can help with that sadly. You just need to forget everything you think you know about the game as looking at your posting history you seem to have little set rules that you always apply in games, whether you know this or not. Forget everything you know and have read about the game and start again. Focus on the role descriptions above all else. When you see a role you want to use, focus on how it will help the team, what the role does and what roles you'd need around the player for the original role to work. It's that simple in terms of thinking.

On the podcast I did with @Rashidi I spoke about how if I had one tip for people struggling with the game, was to ignore guides/blogs and videos. Ironic I know. But I believe that it makes the user think a certain way and in some cases can do more harm than anything. As the user then doesn't think on his own or is swayed by something he has seen written. This makes it hard to see the simple stuff. 

[Preud'homme]

50 minutes ago, Cleon said:

...You just need to forget everything you think you know about the game as looking at your posting history you seem to have little set rules that you always apply in games, whether you know this or not. Forget everything you know and have read about the game and start again. Focus on the role descriptions above all else. ... 

I think a lot of us have those little rules that you are unaware of. For example, I used to think: "My inside forwards should have attack duty, otherwise they will never be available for through balls." Is not true at all. I also never played with a Trequartista, because "that would mess up my pressing". Also not true.

What helped me a lot: loading a game to the first league matches and play a game with a simple setup. See what is happening. If you don't like something, make a little change. Reload the the same game, play slightly different. Not a career save, but just push the buttons and see what's happening. Remeber, it is a game, so you have got to develop skills yourself as well.

I read some articles of  Cleon as well. Ironically, the thing that helped me the most was not some tactical instruction or role explanation. He wrote something like: you can't prevent the opposition from having chances, you can just prevent the amount of times that situations will arise. I interpreted it as: your team will never be perfect. Your opponents has some strengths, and so do you. Don't just focus on one of both but seek for ways to some in situations where good players can excel, and their player are having more problems to excel. For me this can mean something like: put in a defensive fullback against a good winger, but also replace a defensive midfielder for one with more technical skills and let him get more involved in the play. 

I hope this helps.

And @Cleon: thanks, your technical explanations helped me as well, don't worry it's appreciated. 

[Armistice]

Maybe hate is a strong word in this case, but you get my point and I hate when people still give me hopes that I can still do good in this game when I feel so hopeless.  Right now I don't even know where to start, or actually restart. I have a preferred formation 4-1-4-1, I have a preferred style of football, attacking football, I want to press high up the pitch and defend with the ball if it makes any sense, like keep the ball in our possession, but I don't even know what club to start with. But I don't even have fairly decent results when trying some attacking football. I tried something last night with my club Spurs and lost in the first game of the season at home vs Stoke so I quit the game. This happens all the time, when I have terrible starts of season and I just quit the game because I know I won't be able to make this work. Then get more and more frustrated because of this.

[MR4-4-4-2]

i think we should keep it simple to many team instructions i see tactics that people upload and have a about 9 team  instructions  is there any need for it i ask?

[Svenc]

Looping already. Get an ass man to handle the stuff and clicky holiday. This game can be almost as simple as your wifey's Candy Crush. Shape, individual mentality, and all that advanced FM mechanics fap aren't in any way ever a root cause for tactical struggle (if at all the case). **** role/duty selections are as it's them primarily govern forward runs and movement. How hard is it to comprehend what the effects of keeping tons of players behind the ball vs. pushing them all up is. Plus, just because you're not winning the EPL first season with Spurs doesn't mean you're struggling. Even an initial finish outside of the CL spots is a possibility. The last save I had in the EPL starting at the top on a prior release it took me until the third season to win it, and that was with Liverpool -- 2nd season finished 3rd despite no more than 3 losses. Most competitive league at the start of the game. And no matter how limited/decent the AI is, unless you go with a cheap exploit, that's the EPL, several squads at least about onpar to each other right at the top.

[Armistice]

30 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Looping already. Get an ass man to handle the stuff and clicky holiday. This game can be almost as simple as your wifey's Candy Crush. Shape, individual mentality, and all that advanced FM mechanics fap aren't in any way ever a root cause for tactical struggle (if at all the case). **** role/duty selections are as it's them primarily govern forward runs and movement. How hard is it to comprehend what the effects of keeping tons of players behind the ball vs. pushing them all up is. Plus, just because you're not winning the EPL first season with Spurs doesn't mean you're struggling. Even an initial finish outside of the CL spots is a possibility. The last save I had in the EPL starting at the top on a prior release it took me until the third season to win it, and that was with Liverpool -- 2nd season finished 3rd despite no more than 3 losses. Most competitive league at the start of the game. And no matter how limited/decent the AI is, unless you go with a cheap exploit, that's the EPL, several squads at least about onpar to each other right at the top.

I don't expect to win the league with Spurs mate, that would be a bonus to be honest, all I want to see is some progress in what I want to do, I want to see my team effectively create chances against packed defences, I want to understand what it takes to actually pull defenders around and translate that successfully in FM, I want to understand why to use certain roles and duties, not only "I'll use a IF on attack because that's how I saw on the forums or that's how people recommend me to have variety". I want to know how to spot an issue during matches and build from there, adapt and so on, it doesn't have to be like that in every game because I'm not so much into micromanaging everything, but a good start and progress towards my targets are honestly the only things I am striving so much right now and I just can't seem to have them.

[Cleon]

3 minutes ago, Armistice said:

I don't expect to win the league with Spurs mate, that would be a bonus to be honest, all I want to see is some progress in what I want to do, I want to see my team effectively create chances against packed defences, I want to understand what it takes to actually pull defenders around and translate that successfully in FM, I want to understand why to use certain roles and duties, not only "I'll use a IF on attack because that's how I saw on the forums or that's how people recommend me to have variety". I want to know how to spot an issue during matches and build from there, adapt and so on, it doesn't have to be like that in every game because I'm not so much into micromanaging everything, but a good start and progress towards my targets are honestly the only things I am striving so much right now and I just can't seem to have them.

How can you learn when you quit after a loss on the first day of the season? How can you learn from that? How do you know that you wouldn’t have won the next 8 games in a row? Players need time to settle into tactics hence familiarity. You lost. So what. Stick at it, it’s the only way to learn.

[Rashidi]

3 hours ago, Armistice said:

There is no point. I tried everything for years now and nothing worked. Why put effort in it when the end product is the same?

Maybe you tried too much? I noticed people doing this a fair bit, even in my discussions with people I find that they assimilate too much and very often this information is contradictory.

You should simply start by disregarding nearly every blog out there. Step back and ask yourself what you want to achieve.

Then look at the roles and duties in the game understand what they do, then go easy on yourself. When I started out the first time I got fired fast.

Downloading tactics can be good and bad. If you treat them like a template and understand why the roles do what they do then good. However if it’s trying a new look because the last one bored you then you will struggle.

just step back take a deep breath and go simple.

[Svenc]

12 minutes ago, Armistice said:

I don't expect to win the league with Spurs mate, that would be a bonus to be honest, all I want to see is some progress in what I want to do, I want to see my team effectively create chances against packed defences.

How do you gauge at how successfully you are already doing this? Just because you drop a few points and have matches where you fail to create much, may not mean you are generally struggling. I love to drop deep and soak up crap shots myself on various releases -- that's got to be accomodated in there too after all. (The easiest for a variety of reasons for this was FM12 -- back to back cup upsets with lower league teams plus progressing through the CL group stages with Rosenborg despite that group containing the likes of Real and Milan).

edit:

2 minutes ago, Armistice said:

 Most of the times, my saves end up either after a few pre-season games when I realize I can't break defensive sides down, or after the first 2-3 games of the season when I also realize that I didn't do this properly. And instead of actually going on with the save and trying to fix the issues, I restart the game with another club. Same thing, repeat over and over.

My honest advice is to then quit playing, as you are already looping indeed.

[Armistice]

Just now, Cleon said:

How can you learn when you quit after a loss on the first day of the season? How can you learn from that? How do you know that you wouldn’t have won the next 8 games in a row? Players need time to settle into tactics hence familiarity. You lost. So what. Stick at it, it’s the only way to learn.

Fair enough, the point is that I've grown extremely frustrated over the last two years that now every time I lose a game, I'm convinced that my tactics are not good enough. Most of the times, my saves end up either after a few pre-season games when I realize I can't break defensive sides down, or after the first 2-3 games of the season when I also realize that I didn't do this properly. And instead of actually going on with the save and trying to fix the issues, I restart the game with another club. Same thing, repeat over and over. That's why I said I just want to see some progress, because that would keep me motivated to try and sort things out. The last time I managed to go on with a save in FM17 was with a lower league side and that's because we actually started the season well and we were among the top 6 in League Two so at that point I realized maybe I was doing something right, but when I take over a high ranked club and start with some terrible results, then I'm thinking hey maybe I'm actually not going this the right way. I don't want to compare myself to the likes of you or Rashidi, but I always think in the back of my head "hey, these guys always have great results and I don't so that must be me again". But you lot have way more experience than me.

[herne79]

11 minutes ago, Armistice said:

And instead of actually going on with the save and trying to fix the issues, I restart the game with another club. Same thing, repeat over and over.

There's your problem, but I think you know that already.  If you don't stick with trying to fix the issues you see you'll never understand what's going on.

You wanted a discussion about attacking football and there's a lot of good advice in here, but we're in danger of that discussion degenerating into nothing more than expressing your frustrations.  At some point soon it'll be an idea to stop theorising, discussing and generalising and get down to specifics.  ie., start a save, create a tactical system and discuss that specifically.

[themadsheep2001]

Lots of good stuff has already been said. But I think one thing hasn't been said: The game isn't all that complex, unless you make it so, nor is it all that difficult. But it will often require learning through failure, something most games don't have. If you aren't willing to fail at some points, you make it much harder to learn 

[Armistice]

38 minutes ago, herne79 said:

There's your problem, but I think you know that already.  If you don't stick with trying to fix the issues you see you'll never understand what's going on.

You wanted a discussion about attacking football and there's a lot of good advice in here, but we're in danger of that discussion degenerating into nothing more than expressing your frustrations.  At some point soon it'll be an idea to stop theorising, discussing and generalising and get down to specifics.  ie., start a save, create a tactical system and discuss that specifically.

When I created this thread I wanted everyone to come with opinions, with their tactics, how they look to move around packed defences, more of what you'd call a popular thread and while some people posted certain good stuff here, this turned out as if they were trying to help me only. I'm willing to get a new save going tonight after I finish work and try to find out what I am doing wrong, while posting here all the progress I do.

[yonko]

6 hours ago, Armistice said:

When I created this thread I wanted everyone to come with opinions, with their tactics, how they look to move around packed defences, more of what you'd call a popular thread and while some people posted certain good stuff here, this turned out as if they were trying to help me only. I'm willing to get a new save going tonight after I finish work and try to find out what I am doing wrong, while posting here all the progress I do.

Why do you want people to come here with their tactics? You seem to have hard time understanding information from other threads as it is. How is more info going to be helpful to you when you don't understand what previously has been posted (here and in other threads)? 

[Armistice]

12 minutes ago, yonko said:

Why do you want people to come here with their tactics? You seem to have hard time understanding information from other threads as it is. How is more info going to be helpful to you when you don't understand what previously has been posted (here and in other threads)? 

What? How did you come to that conclusion? If I can't create a decent working tactic it doesn't necessarily mean that I don't understand info. I don't understand it all sometimes, but I still get the idea behind most of these guides and I can see/predict why some of them are choosing this role instead of another.

In fact, as I said in main post, it's practice that helps the most, theory is good but not always on point, for example if I see videos/screens of these attacking principles applied in game, I know what to look for. That's what I meant by that. I hoped more people would post pictures of what they expect to see in their tactics and why is that beneficial to their tactics. And also, why does it have to help ME? It's a community after all.

[yonko]

3 hours ago, Armistice said:

What? How did you come to that conclusion? If I can't create a decent working tactic it doesn't necessarily mean that I don't understand info. I don't understand it all sometimes, but I still get the idea behind most of these guides and I can see/predict why some of them are choosing this role instead of another.

In fact, as I said in main post, it's practice that helps the most, theory is good but not always on point, for example if I see videos/screens of these attacking principles applied in game, I know what to look for. That's what I meant by that. I hoped more people would post pictures of what they expect to see in their tactics and why is that beneficial to their tactics. And also, why does it have to help ME? It's a community after all.

I arrived at that conclusion based on your posts so far. They clearly show that you haven't understood or at the very least you have misunderstood the guides and the things explained in helpful threads. 

If practice helps you, then you do not need anymore contribution from others than already posted. Try and experiment on your own. Again, based on what you post, I do not see evidence that you know what to look for or that you understand the material.