Grassroots Tactics: Simplicity.

[higgins]

3 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

That screenshot is of a half-back - which is the role designed for this mechanism - but there would be no inherent difference from a DLP(D) and a HB(D) aside from PIs and the DLP being a playmaker. The above is a case of a built-in match engine mechanism rather than the result of a particular set of instructions.

You're right, dc's only split with Wb's.

[forlegaizen]

5 hours ago, higgins said:

 

I've seen that spreadsheet for the first time, it's really useful and it would be great if we could see those numbers in the tactical screen, like we were used to do in the past.

 

Actually @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! raised that question a few months ago, its in this thread.

Cheers.

 

[VV Bal op de Lat]

5 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Difficult to define but I'd say big haha.

Personally I'd be reluctant to do it without elite level players. Just imagine Cristiano Ronaldo and Gareth Bale being persistently goal side of your fullbacks whilst being played onside by your centre backs.

I've been whinging at SI over it for years but - despite promising not to ignore - it's so far been brushed under the carpet. Fingers crossed for FM2018!

Yeah, that's what I thought I'd seen, cause I thought some goals I conceded were because of my wingbacks. I thinks I'm just gonna let them stick to fullback-position, 'cause I'm that kind of manager that absolutely disgraces conceding  (But still, I wanna have possession of the ball and play attacking football).

 

I'm sorry to hear about SI being reluctant/lazy/too busy(?) to improve this. I think It would absolutely improve next years match engine if it would be fixed.

[RTHerringbone]

7 hours ago, VV Bal op de Lat said:

I'm sorry to hear about SI being reluctant/lazy/too busy(?) to improve this. I think It would absolutely improve next years match engine if it would be fixed.

Bit harsh to imply it could be reluctance or laziness? Maybe it's just a really hard game to code? SI would never intentionally leave a bug in the game if it could easily be resolved.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Let's not turn this thread into another discussion about not fixing the half-back role. I've made my feelings clear in relevant threads.

This system doesn't even use a half-back! 

[VV Bal op de Lat]

2 hours ago, RTHerringbone said:

Bit harsh to imply it could be reluctance or laziness? Maybe it's just a really hard game to code? SI would never intentionally leave a bug in the game if it could easily be resolved.

It would indeed be a bit harsh if I would imply reluctance or laziness and thats why I added the questionmark after those words, to explain I don't know what the real reason is. It wasn't my intention at all to offend anyone with my post.

[Rashidi]

14 hours ago, forlegaizen said:

Actually @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! raised that question a few months ago, its in this thread.

Cheers.

 

It will never happen, it was supposed to be under the hood

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

2 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

It will never happen, it was supposed to be under the hood

I agree. Presenting a number on the Tactics Creator interface is a step back wards.

My opinion is that the current individual player mentality is all but useless.

The issues are:

1. You make changes in the Overall Team Screen but then observe the effect of the changes in the Player Instructions screen so if you want to compare a few options, and the effects across your entire team then that involves a lot of clicking.
2. It's very difficult to compare with other players i.e how does my DMC's mentality relate to my DCs and MCs?
3. For newer players - there's absolutely no explanation of what this means.

In my opinion they are fine with the slider - or whatever you want to call that - but it should:

1. Be displayed clearly on the Team Overview page
2. At the very least least have some kind of marker to say left to right represents being more conservative to attacking and a neutral point in the centre.

Using a spreadsheet is far from perfect but - to me - it's a lot more effective than deciphering the information through the TC.

But anyway, that's just my opinion & we've veered waaaay off-topic from tactics at a grassroots level 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 minutes ago, D_LO_ said:

Just to be clear that mod. does still work for anyone interested:

 

(sorry for contributing to the de-rail)

Thanks for the screenshot of playing FM on acid  

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

9 minutes ago, D_LO_ said:

It's a Premiership style skin. Not for the faint hearted... 

 

 

[Fosse]

11 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

 

I've just failed my nth driving test and that's cheered me right up, thanks 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

49 minutes ago, Fosse said:

I've just failed my nth driving test and that's cheered me right up, thanks 

That post actually got more 'Give Reputation' votes than the entire opening post - hahaha! 

[Fosse]

Just now, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

That post actually got more 'Give Reputation' votes than the entire opening post - hahaha! 

Hahaha The simpsons quote of the day account on twitter is fantastic

[aderow]

1 hour ago, D_LO_ said:

Just to be clear that mod. does still work for anyone interested:

 

(sorry for contributing to the de-rail)

Oh good lord my eyes

And don't worry this is the right kind of derail

[Rashidi]

5 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I agree. Presenting a number on the Tactics Creator interface is a step back wards.

My opinion is that the current individual player mentality is all but useless.

The issues are:

1. You make changes in the Overall Team Screen but then observe the effect of the changes in the Player Instructions screen so if you want to compare a few options, and the effects across your entire team then that involves a lot of clicking.
2. It's very difficult to compare with other players i.e how does my DMC's mentality relate to my DCs and MCs?
3. For newer players - there's absolutely no explanation of what this means.

In my opinion they are fine with the slider - or whatever you want to call that - but it should:

1. Be displayed clearly on the Team Overview page
2. At the very least least have some kind of marker to say left to right represents being more conservative to attacking and a neutral point in the centre.

Using a spreadsheet is far from perfect but - to me - it's a lot more effective than deciphering the information through the TC.

But anyway, that's just my opinion & we've veered waaaay off-topic from tactics at a grassroots level 

Agreed I have suggested some changes I am hoping to see in FM18, but I don't want to create another rabbit hole  for users to head off to wonderland

[Rashidi]

4 hours ago, D_LO_ said:

Just to be clear that mod. does still work for anyone interested:

 

(sorry for contributing to the de-rail)

How do you not get sore eyes? Got half a mind of issuing @D_LO_ a warning for giving the readers a potential headache :-)

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

10 minutes ago, D_LO_ said:

Lol, I don't want to make this thread about my skin but I feel compelled to defend myself 

  Reveal hidden contents

Granted the highlighting is a bit bright in some places but on the whole it's not too bad I don't think, I appreciate you've only seen two screens though... I'm tired of the grey/black backgrounds so I went with the Premiership graphic theme for consistency with my match screens... The mauve/purple I thought was actually quite dark, lol.  It's probably why I got into skinning in the first place though, boredom with the default/popular skins and wanting something a bit different. I guess, based on that remit, my tastes are always going to be viewed as... acquired.   A lot re-colours depending on your team too, Gosport are yellow and blue... 

 

 I would apologise again @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! but you did start this  

Anyway, any skinning questions/help give me a shout, 90% of the time there's usually a solution. 

Dammit, @D_LO_!!  Will you please set your skin to 'stun'?? 

[higgins]

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Agreed I have suggested some changes I am hoping to see in FM18, but I don't want to create another rabbit hole  for users to head off to wonderland

No need for a rabbit hole, but in 2017 having to rely on a spreadsheet to understand how mentalities are spread in the various frameworks looks a bit bizarre...

[Tajerio]

Ozil, wondering about what you said earlier about organizing a more solid pressing system--what are your thoughts for managing it with your only wide players at WBR/L (or even DR/L)?  I find that with the 3-5-1-1 it works out all right given how high the wide players start, but giving up all that ground down the wings in a box, 4-4-2 diamond, or 3-5-2 makes a high press tough, and I've never really gotten any press other than a high one working in FM.

[Jean0987654321]

Not too bad, Ozil. Your 3-5-2/5-3-2 formation is pretty close to Naglesmann shape bar maybe swap the roles of the DM and the RCM and then the striker pairings. Good to see someone else other than me taking a bite in order to get FCUM up. I tried but the highest I got them in FM15 was the Championship

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

13 hours ago, Tajerio said:

Ozil, wondering about what you said earlier about organizing a more solid pressing system--what are your thoughts for managing it with your only wide players at WBR/L (or even DR/L)?  I find that with the 3-5-1-1 it works out all right given how high the wide players start, but giving up all that ground down the wings in a box, 4-4-2 diamond, or 3-5-2 makes a high press tough, and I've never really gotten any press other than a high one working in FM.

 

Well, in narrow shapes such as the 4-4-2 diamond, 3-5-2 or anything without wingers you can still press but you are unable to press the opposition full backs so it's difficult to press high up the field.

You can still play a medium / high block - so you concede that wide space but then press aggressively around that and take advantage of your man advantage in the centre.

This approach will be easier for lower level players to handle but not as intense pressing as a 4-1-2-3 or something which can press the whole opposition team effectively.

Illustrating my point

3-5-2 pressing a 4-4-2:

 

• Notice how it's still effective pressing, but the opposition fullbacks are in space.
• One opposition pass to the full back would take the sting out of my press.
• I wouldn't want to press the full back extensively as it'd drag a player out of position and leave another opposition player in space.
• We are still pressing the opposition in their half

Basically it's pretty high pressing, but it's not the extent when we're talking about Klopp, Bielsa & co..

In comparison, here's a 4-3-3 pressing:

Notice how the opposition fullbacks are no longer a passing option. Midfield is also tied up. De Vrij doesn't really have many options here.

The 4-3-3 clearly facilitates a more effective and intense press, but could my players handle that with their single-figure positioning, work rate and stamina? Not yet..

Does that help?

[Tajerio]

Makes perfect sense!

[aderow]

On 4/6/2017 at 14:31, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Dammit, @D_LO_!!  Will you please set your skin to 'stun'?? 

That just made my freaking day

[Columnarius]

 @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Thanks for another (as always) outstanding topic.

What made you decide to go with a Roaming Playmaker role in the DM position as opposed to either the Deep Lying Playmaker or the Regista?

With the DLP, you lose the option to move into the channels but given the players ahead of him, I would have thought that having him hold his position and spray passes rather than dribbling aggressively might be a better fit.  Is my thinking off on that point?

Regarding the Regista, this formation reminds me of Conte's Juventus with Pirlo dictating play.  Given there are two forwards to aim at in addition to the two CMs and the WBs, I could imagine playing a Regista with more direct passing then the rest of the team so that he plays all options.  Is that different than how you imagined the Roaming Playmaker distributing?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 hours ago, Columnarius said:

 @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Thanks for another (as always) outstanding topic.

What made you decide to go with a Roaming Playmaker role in the DM position as opposed to either the Deep Lying Playmaker or the Regista?

With the DLP, you lose the option to move into the channels but given the players ahead of him, I would have thought that having him hold his position and spray passes rather than dribbling aggressively might be a better fit.  Is my thinking off on that point?

Regarding the Regista, this formation reminds me of Conte's Juventus with Pirlo dictating play.  Given there are two forwards to aim at in addition to the two CMs and the WBs, I could imagine playing a Regista with more direct passing then the rest of the team so that he plays all options.  Is that different than how you imagined the Roaming Playmaker distributing?

Didn't want the Deep-lying Playmaker as I knew I needed more mobility, if the opposition fielded an AMC or hardworking midfield.

Was a shoot out between Regista and Roaming Playmaker so the difference comes down to the lateral movement, i.e moving into the channels and where they're passing the ball (the Regista being more direct). Wanted more controlled build up so went Roaming Playmaker.

Pretty marginal, really.

I'd say the Regista role is a little more difficult for players of this level given longer passes are typically more difficult.

[Columnarius]

1 minute ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Didn't want the Deep-lying Playmaker as I knew I needed more mobility, if the opposition fielded an AMC or hardworking midfield.

Do you mean that rather than having him sit statically in front of the back three, you want him closing down more and chasing midfielders as they roam around?

[Columnarius]

One other question regarding attributes and playing style.  In the screenshot you list the following attributes:

• Technique
• Passing
• First Touch
• Vision
• Off the Ball
• Decisions
• Flair
• Composure
• Anticipation
• Teamwork
• Concentration
• Positioning
• Workrate
• Determination
• Stamina

I imagine certain attributes are more relevant to certain positions/roles within your playing style.  For example, flair is probably less relevant for the back three than your CM - AT.  When you were searching for replacement players, which of these attributes did you look for for which positions / group of positions?  I wonder if you could speak about that in the context of how you think about the attributes relative to what you need from these positions given the desired playing style.

[DannyVer]

On 25-4-2017 at 22:23, Columnarius said:

One other question regarding attributes and playing style.  In the screenshot you list the following attributes:

• Technique
• Passing
• First Touch
• Vision
• Off the Ball
• Decisions
• Flair
• Composure
• Anticipation
• Teamwork
• Concentration
• Positioning
• Workrate
• Determination
• Stamina

I imagine certain attributes are more relevant to certain positions/roles within your playing style.  For example, flair is probably less relevant for the back three than your CM - AT.  When you were searching for replacement players, which of these attributes did you look for for which positions / group of positions?  I wonder if you could speak about that in the context of how you think about the attributes relative to what you need from these positions given the desired playing style.

This is exactly what i'm looking for. Hope that @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! can reply to this!! Thanks!

[Oppiiz]

Thanks for another fantastic read @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!!

 

When reading your post you make it so simple to understand, really love that!

On another hand, how is the project going? Or did you move to anything else? 

[ajsr1982]

Really enjoyed the read, and I was particularly pleased to see you move away from Very Fluid for a nice change! This was brilliantly thought out and I really like the logic that flowed throughout. It proves that things don't need to be complicated to work well.

A couple of things from me:

First, I don't think you played enough on the importance of having players that can play in multiple roles here. There was some discussion about moving to a 4-man midfield against teams that play with a single striker. Having a player that is comfortable as a DC or a DM is priceless.

Second, a slightly odd question, but I'd be interested to see what you think. Obviously, part of building a successful system is knowing its limitations and weaknesses. So, how would you go about playing against your own system? The reason I ask is that I come up against this system, or a slight variant of it, a lot in the Italian lower leagues, and it's an absolute pig of a system to play against!

[Repsalty]

Great read once again. Must say I'm impressed that you picked up this challenge since you admitted that LLM was not really your cup of tea.

 

On a more content based matter. How important do you deem the PPMs? Seeing how you got the entire team working on them pretty much straight away I would think pretty important, but as this is LLM and you will be climbing up the leagues won't it be somewhat useless since you will have to keep improving (getting better players) your team?

Also liked the way you mentioned the steps to get to the very fluid play style that you eventually wish to get to.

[Danny_H22]

I know this thread is no longer active, so not expecting a reply. Just want to say that I decided to test this tactic on my Glenavon team who were struggling in 8th place when I took over. We finished the season strong, losing only one game and making the cup final. It works for us because we are often the underdog, although my players do get a bit angry when I say we’re playing it against lesser teams. 

 

I’m not one for copying tactics as I’ve played CM/FM for a long time and consider myself above average, but I really enjoyed the write up and haven’t really played with WBs much in the past. I think with the right signings in the summer, this tactics could make next season very interesting for me.

[Armistice]

Very neat and smart decisions in picking up your choices of duties, roles, mentality and so.