Brazil x Colombia - the X-Ray

[Tele Santana]

So it happens that, having read so much about Brazil´s supposedly aggressiveness or even dirty play, I decided to analyze the Brazil x Colombia game in more detail.

Of course there is some bias always, even though when one doesn´t want to. There is opinion involved, and opinion is subjective. But there are some objective components to analysisas well.

And as Voltaire would say, anyone is entitled to speak up.

These are the three dimensions that I intend to analyze:

a. The match and who deserved to win

b. The cronological events of the game and their impact, and how officiating was

c. Zuniga x Neymar incident

Each of them will be one post, so please wait before commenting.

[Tele Santana]

Although the fouling stats can be misleading, as I will show later, the match stats in general can be applied to describe the game in its context.

So Colombia is the World Cup´s hot-red team that emphasyzes passing and attacking plays, and then, after 7 minutes, Brazil is up leading the match.

What one would expect?

That Colombia would come out and dominate possession or create many chances right?

Well...not much.

By minute 33 of the first half, Brazil had 56% of ball possession, and it would end the match, even after 2-0 and retreating on 2-1, with 51%.

So then, clearly, Colombia would have had more shots, isn´t it right? Not so. Brazil had 13 shots against 11, even though it led the game for 90 minutes (including stoppage time).

What about clear chances?

More for Brazil, either. Ospina was responsible to keeping Colombia in game.

Colombia did tackle more than Brazil, against much of the expectations laid out by some people reactions to the game.

So, this is a pretty straight post: Brazil had more possession, had more shots, had more chances and controlled the game.

In terms of individual performances, although some were quick to point out Fernandinho as a supposed criminal, he was absolutely outstanding, the name of the game. There were a number of clear clean tackles as well as controlling the ball, passing and dribbling out of trouble for him. For me, he was the best performer of the Brazilian team.

Julio Cesar didn´t have much to do, Maicon was very good until his mistake on Colombia´s goal, where actually he had a case for receiving a foul from Armero, Thiago was great except for his silly foul that got him out of the semifinals, Luiz was very good as well, Marcelo is a player who lacks intelligence. In Colombia´s penalty, he shouldn´t have committed to a sliding tackle when if he could keep striding with Bacca there would be no play. His overwill is damaging to the team, although he is talented. Paulinho played well while he had gas, Oscar was good supporting defense but so so in attack.

The offensive line was weak. Neymar had an off day from the start, missing passes, miscalculating and making bad decisions. Hulk, although trying very hard, is also not a bright player in terms of intelligence. His decision was poor thorought the day, and at times annoying. And finally, Fred. Fred should go back to Bedrock, where he belongs.

Colombia was outshone by Brazil most of the time, with discipline, and became quickly frustrated, much more to do with conceding early than with the (bad for both) officiating, although they were clearly looking to exert pressure on the referee and some of its media keep looking now to justify their defeat by putting it in the hands of officiating.

In the end of the day, the one who played better won.

[Tele Santana]

Many people stated the Brazil were the agressive part at the beggining of the match.

Although Brazil played a pressure-on game from the start, the Colombians started the fouls. The terrible referee was lenient on discipline, but quite South American style in calling manyfouls that for European standards would be deemed soft.

So this was an issue with him. Try to control the game South American style, with picky fouls all the time, but then avoiding cards.

Here is the chronology of fouls and major incidents in the game.

1´ - Colombia (1) – Cuadrado on Marcelo – clear foul – tactical soft foul

3´ - Colombia (2) – Sanchez on Fred – clear foul – common foul

4´ - Colombia (3) – Teo Gutierrez on Fernandinho – clear foul – tactical soft foul

So, in the first 4 minutes, Colombians are called for 3 fouls.

Then, at 5´Oscar is charged and no foul is called.

Brazil would score, without conceding a single foul, at 7 minutes.

8´ - Brazil (1) – Oscar on Rodriguez – similar challenge to Zuniga´s on Neymar, but...no vicious release of the knee while going up.

10´ - Cuadrado whining to the referee after he was given advantage which resulted in a dangerous goal attempt and a corner to Colombia following play

11´- Brazil (2) – Oscar on Armero – questionable call

12´- Colombia (4) - Teo Gutierrez on David Luiz – clear foul – deserved warning as he recklessly goes to Luiz´s right ankle which was the leg supporting the left leg´s clearance

13´- Brazil (3) – Fernandinho on Rodriguez – clear foul – tactical foul, amplifying lateral space with the thigh. Colombians pressure the referee. Deserved warning as he was late. Not a sole or kick kind of foul, Just opening the weidth of the body with his thigh.

Then, at 14´, Teo Gutierrez goes up for a header with Luiz and unleashes his elbow, not called.

15´ - Colombia (5) Cuadrado on Fred –clear foul, pushing with right arm on the back. Cuadrado still trying to whistle the game.

15´ - Colombia (6) Rodriguez on Neymar – clear foul in midfield. Rodriguez complains. Just to make sure, this was his first foul, not the one which led him to be booked in the 2nd half.

15´ - Brazil (4) – Marcelo on Cuadrado – clear foul, though soft. Cuadrado decides to fall down when Marcelo pulls his chest with his left arm.

16´- As Brazil has a corner, Zuniga is warned for holding Paulinho before the ball goes into play. As play proceeds, Hulk makes an uncalled foul, in my opinion, on an unidentified Colombian.

18´- Colombia (7) – clear foul - Ibarbo goes recklessly to a ball over the head as Maicon jumps to get it out and is reached on the head by Ibarbo´s foot. Clear foul, deserved a warning, could easily bring a yellow. Repeating: Maicon jumped (not that he ducked his head) and still was hit.

24´ - Brazil (5) – Hulk on Zapata – questionable call. Hulk had position to go up but didn´t and Zapata charged from behind trying to get the ball. Could easily be a no-call.

24´ - Brazil (6) – Fernandinho on Rodriguez – clear foul, but not as aggressive as people said. Rodriguez was already frustrated in the match (a bit earlier he shown that while being tackled on the ball by Maicon over the left side of Colombian attack), and went up raging and trying to quickly take the free kick. But Fernandinho was entangled with him – actuallyRodriguez tried to push Fernandinho´s butt and he became more angered. That is all. Fernandinho could have been warned, but in the context of the game so far (no cards for Ibarbo or Gutierrez), nothing unexpected. Yepes stepped in trying to be play Terry the Sheriff.

27´ – Colombia (8) – Sanchez on Neymar – clear tactical foul, his second. Still a warning could do.

28´ – Brazil (7) – Paulinho on Ibarbo – probable foul, both fighting for the rebound inside Colombia´s penalty area after a goal attempt by Brazil.

28´ - Brazil (8) – Marcelo on Cuadrado – clear foul. Marcelo complains he slipped because he was being held by his shirt before the ball arrived.

So, by my accounts of called fouls, Brazil reached Colombia numbers only at minute 28 of the first half. So much talk about being the first aggressors...

Then, at 30´, a non call – Gutierrez on Luiz. Luiz anticipates, gets the ball and is kicked from behind by Gutierrez. Referee allows advantage but doesn´t come back to caution the Colombian forward. Play goes on, Yepes tries to foul Luiz and Zapata uses his hand twice on Luiz face to recover the ball. Two potential cautions and three fouls in one play. Not a foul called.

35´ - Brazil (9) - Fernandinho on Ibarbo – dangerous play – terrible call against Brazil near the penalty area. Both players had their feet up, the Colombian even more, and Fernandinho touches the ball. Not only it was an absolute wrong call, it could have led to a goal.

37´- Brazil (10) – Thiago Silva on Cuadrado – unclear foul for me. Cameras were turned from the play as it had happened and we could just see Cuadrado falling or slipping. Thiago was infuriated with the call, and Cuadrado kept trying to influence the referee.

38´ - Colombia (9) – Zapata on Paulinho – Zapata pulls Paulinho from behind in a counter attack. This should be a yellow or at least a very strong warning. Zapata had already hit Luiz on the face twice in the same play which was not called by the referee before.

40´ - Brazil (11) – Fred on Zuniga – clear foul, Fred pulls Zuniga to the ground. Could have been warned.

42´- Colombia (10) – Ibarbo on Hulk – clear foul, pushes Hulk´s back. Should have a yellow by then.

43´- Colombia (11) – Zuniga on Neymar – clear foul, next to the area, gets dribbled between the legs close to the box and stops play immediately with left knee up. Tactical foul and could have been given a yellow. At least a warning.

At 44´ there was a no-call on Paulinho being clearly charged while going up for the header at midfield.

44´ - Colombia (12) – Zuniga on Hulk – clear foul, could easily be a red directly. It is unbelievable that no card was shown, as Hulk had the ball in front of him to start an attack and Zuniga on purpose reaches his knee with the sole of his shoes. He didn´t mind if he could break Hulk´s knee – just went for it. Dirty play.

44´- Brazil (12) – Fernandinho on Rodriguez – clear foul, much like the Zuniga play on Neymar, a charge, but without the criminal knee release. Rodriguez play acts. He goes the ground screaming and once realizes the half is ending he decides to go up quickly and the pain miraculously is gone. Fernandinhos 3rd foul (excluding the wrong call on dangerous play), he could have been warned here or maybe even get a caution here on number of fouls, but none was that harsh. Not for Yepes, though who comes out of defense running like his house was stolen.

46´- Brazil (13) – Marcelo on Zuniga – clear foul, Zuniga protected the ball to receive the foul and Marcelo bought the play. Frustration foul on attack, no harm done.

So, from what I saw, Brazil finished the first half with one more foul than Colombia called against it. This includes the wrong call on Fernandinho and questionable calls.

Clearly Gutierrez, Ibarbo and Zuniga all deserved as much as a booking as one could argue Fernandinho did.

End of the first half.

[Readingfanman]

Really not sure why you're trying to question how Brazil played, the match was a very niggly affair for both sides, and Brazil played their part in it, people haven't questioned Colombia, because they lost. It's been widely accepted the referee had a very poor night, he was poor for both sides, and let far too much go.

It just so happened that Brazil ended up fouling the same player often, and it got raised because of him being such an influential player.

[Tele Santana]

The second half comes of notice when Cuadrado, the good samaritan willing to help the Spanish whistle blower to whistle the match, goes down simulating and he´s not cautioned. A sign of things to come.

1´ - Brazil (14) – handball on Neymar – another mistake by the referee. He didn´t touch the ball with his hands.

3´ - Brazil (15) – Maicon on Rodriguez – Maicon changes the trajectory of the ball with his left foot and shows that to the referee, who insists on awarding the foul. No foul.

4´- Brazil (16) – Maicon on Rodriguez – although questionable, another strange call against Maicon. Rodriguez is able to turn on him but then lets the ball go nearer another Brazilian player and decides to fall. No foul again, Rodriguez, the angel boy, flopping.

5´ - Brazil (17) – Hulk on Zuniga – Hulk does touch Zuniga while stretching for the ball, but the Colombian then jump-acts. I would have given the foul though. Brazilian refereeing commentator said it was a no foul.

At 6´, a more concerning sign of things to come. Neymar gets charged by Zuniga – attention already to an unnecessary knee to the back in the play. That shame of a referee says game on.

7´ - Colombia (13) - After yet another no-call on Zapata charging Neymar, Fernandinho plays through the right wing and he´s pushed by Guarin.

At 8´ referee calls goal kick for Colombia on a clear corner kick for Brazil. After the free kick is taken, the Colombian defender Zapata heads the ball to a corner. Easy, easy call. And of course, Brazil is a menace from corner kicks.

9´ - Brazil (18) – Fred on Ospina – a bit of a push, but could have been called. Fred was fighting for position and in fact got tangled with the Colombian defender and Ospina tripped on him on hiw way down. Let´s say it could be a foul, but of course no intention or anything more than a fortuitous play.

10´ - Brazil (19) – Marcelo on Cuadrado – clear foul, nothing more than that.

10´ - Brazil (20) – Hulk on Sanchez – clear foul, Hulk loses to Sanchez on attack and does a soft touch in the ankle.

11´ - Colombia (14) – Ramos on Luiz – both are challenging for the header, Luiz could have been called on charging before, but he´s not, and then Ramos holds his left hand.

At 14´, no call on Silva charging Ramos from behind. It should be a foul for Colombia.

16´ - Colombia (15) – Yepes on Fred – charging from behind, clear foul.

17´ - Brazil (21) – Luiz on Cuadrado. Normal foul, though I think it was Marcelo who commited it.

18´ - Brazil (22) – Marcelo on Cuadrado – Marcelo did touch as he was trying to go for the ball, so foul given. Cuadrado flopped and put pressure on the referee for a game foul, not even tactical or aggressive.

19´ - Colombia (16) – Cuadrado on Neymar – The match situation allows Colombia to keep the ball and Brazil to defend. Thus, most Brazilian fouls are made when the team is closed in defense. As Neymar starts a counter attack, Cuadrado creates the collision using his right elbow laterally to hit Neymar stomach. Borderline between a tactical foul and an aggressive one. I would have warned him for it alone, but at this stage of the match Cuadrado´s antics and play already deserved to be cautioned.

19´ - Brazil (23) – Silva on Ospina. Clear foul, clear yellow. The only possible discussion is: in a match full of worthier plays, the first card of the game was issued on a silly and harmless foul.

21´ - Brazil (24) – Paulinho on Zuniga – couldn´t get a replay, I thought it was a questionable call. Would like to see it again in slow-mo from a proper angle.

At 22´ upon free kick, Colombia offsides – now, this play has been deemed in some Colombia media outlets like an officiating robbery. It was not. Yepes is offsides at the star of the play, he of course takes part in it and the play is stopped with a hearable whistle before he shoots at goal. Oh, and Zapata´s hand is in the middle as well.

24´- Colombia (17) – Rodriguez on Hulk – clear foul, Hulk in speed, and sliding tackle from behind with the ball already far. In a normal match, that´s a normal yellow. If the referee kept his criterium, a warning would do. There were many worse plays in the game, such as there were worse than Thiago´s. But the caution definitely didn´t change anything in the match.

Can´t comment on Yepes yellow upon Brazilian goal as I didn´t see what happened.

27´- Colombia (18) – Bacca on Silva – probable foul, trying to reach for the ball but anticipated by Thiago Silva.

28´- Brazil (25) – Hulk on Zapata – couldn´t see the play, but by the way both players acted, seemed a normal foul when Hulk was marking the goal kick.

Still at 28´, no call: Neymar was clearly pushed by Sanchez while going up, in front of the terrible referee, who said play on.

29´- Brazil (26) – Paulinho on someone – unclear as both players put their feet up and there was no replay. However, what originated this play was the no-call on Neymar getting pushed near midfield. Referee was very close the action.

At 30, no call: Zapata climbs over Hulk near the sideline of Brazil defense and the referee says play on.

30´- Colombia (19) – Bacca on Silva – probable foul as Thiago anticipated and Bacca used his arm.

At 31´ Yepes tackles Neymar and I think the Brazilian could have flopped. No replays again.

At 32´, no call: Armero hits Maicon once from behind, then grabs his shirt. Maicon, pressured, passes the ball wrongly in what will initiate Colombia´s attack which finished with the penalty being whistled. Many people in Brazil criticized Maicon. Reviewing the play, I am pretty sure he was fouled in an intensity that have been called by the horrible referee during most of the game. Scoreline changing error.

32´ - Brazil (27) – Julio Cesar on Bacca - Penalty for Colombia. Many people arguing that Julio Cesar should have been red carded. It wasn´t the case. First, he went for the ball and instinctively got his body upwards. But the main issue here is that David Luiz was completely covering on the ball, so it wasn´t a definitive goal, nor an aggressive tackle. Yellow card was right.

At 33´, Colombia goal – I fully agree Rodriguez way of scoring the PK was legal. But where were the haters who complained about Neymar the other day?

36´ - Colombia (20) – Zapata on Fernandinho – clear foul, grabbing the shirt. Don´t know however how the referee saw it as he was on the other side of the play.

At 40´, in another wrong call, the referee sees corner when in fact was a goal kick for Brazil, Oscar´s sliding tackle exploding the ball to Zuniga´s right foot. The linesman was close and made a mistake. The consequence? Neymar out of the World Cup.

At 41´, another no call: Neymar is hit by Zuniga, from behind, and the referee allows play to continue - will develop in the next post.

41´ - Colombia (21) – Quintero on Oscar – hands and feet foul. Easily a yellow.

44´ - Colombia (22) Rodriguez on Marcelo - Rodriguez stretches his elbow on Marcelo so his argument that was a shoulder play is vain. Foul.

At 46 ´, no call: I think there was a foul on Rodriguez down the left lane of attack, but couldn´t see who did it.

48´- Brazil (28) – Fred on Sanchez – battling for positioning, Fred dislocated Sanchez. Clear foul.

49´ - Brazil (29) – Hernanes on Quintero – clear foul, not aggressive.

50´- Colombia (23) – Zapata on Ramirez – clear foul, Ramirez was winning in speed.

I probably lost 2 called fouls from the Brazilian team, according to the stats I´ve seen, but couldn´t find them. Anyways: 3 of the fouls that accounted for the so-called higher volume of Brazilian fouls were fouls on the goalie and a wrong handball, one was the Fernandinho foul that wasn´t and others were highly questionable, to say the least.

When you consider that Brazil was leading and Colombians would have to keep the ball moving trying to find space it would be more than natural that Brazil would eventually foul more.

As for aggression, nothing comes near Zuniga, even before the Neymar play.

Down to it, now.

[EnterUsernameHere]

No one wants to read that biased crap.

Cheers

EnterUsernameHere

[DJ]

Fouls. Brazil 31 - Colombia 23. ( http://nos.nl/wk2014/wedstrijd/1658261_brazilie-colombia.html )

Argue all you like.

[Tele Santana]

41´ - No call: Neymar is hit by Zuniga, from behind, and the referee allows play to continue. Some comments on that:

1 - Zuniga was man marking Neymar on set plays to avoid counter attacks from the beggining of the match.

2 – Up to this point, there were at least 5 plays during the match (where Oscar, Luiz and Colombians as well were the chargers) where someone positioned to receive a ball coming over, and an opponent would charge him in the back. In NONE of them, except another one from Zuniga earlier in Neymar by the beggining of the second half, the knee was released.

3 – I don´t believe he was out there to break Neymar´s vertebrae. But I am 100% sure he wanted to inflict pain. He was there not just to stop the counter attack, but to intimidate, make a statement, and inflict as much pain as he could on Neymar´s back. Before the frames already shown by PMLF here, he does look to Neymar and checks his position - as he was the designated marker, and then, when charging, he releases his knee full power to the unprotected back. So, although I can buy that this idiot Zuniga didn´t expect to break Neymar for the rest of the tournament, he wasn´t shy to premeditatedly try to inflict much pain. And this makes him an animal who the officials needed to prevent acting.

4- The Hulk sole to the knee just adds context, as his first charge on Neymar as well. Referee can´t say there was no context since he, despite not red carding or cautioning the play on Hulk, called the foul.

5 – The shameful referee was close enough to the play to see it clearly.

6 – The shadow of an official didn´t point out as an advantage, so what one asks is if he even considered it a foul, although he had the angle to see it.

7- Fair enough, although no one understood how grave the cheap shot turned out to be, the Brazilian refereeing commentator Arnaldo Cezar Coelho said at the time he saw the replay: shouldn´t play advantage, should have stopped and ejected the player on the spot.

Cheers,

Tele

[Tele Santana]

DJ,

And you assume all were called correcly? I presented the argument, this is your best? Have you looked at the fouls? I see... - By the way, to compare this Brazilian team with the Holland thugs of 2010 is ludicrous. If you want to discuss it deeply or properly, have a look at the match and the fouls called, and on the impact of officiating...Or not. Be my guest to show stats you don´t even know how come they were reached...

[RubenJ]

ha

wtf is about all I can say to this thread

[Tele Santana]

About the whining of haters that claim Brazil has either:

a. been more violent than other teams and especially Colombia in the last game

b. was the first team to commit many fouls in the match and Colombians just reacted to that (lame, as the chronology of fouls shows)

c. was the team that actually was benefited by the official terrible officiating, a claim that emerged as well

d. is the team that referees are protecting in the tournament. Although favoured in the Croatia game, in the Chile and Colombia matches Brazil was harmed by bad calls

But you can still hate as much as you want, really.

ha

Cheers,

Tele

[DJ]

Tele, Enterusernamehere already summoned it up. Do you really think anyone is going to sit through that entire match again, only to pee on all your biased calls? Don't forget I've seen that match. Your descriptions are BrazilFakts and that's clear enough. Just look at you trying to play down the rain of fouls on James FFS

[Rob1981]

All that writing and no mention of Thiago Silva's pathetic booking.

[Tele Santana]

Oh, and Rodriguez was fouled 6 times thorought the entire match: at 8´, 13´, 24´and 44´´ in the first half. Then twice in the 2nd half which were questionable calls. Is that really so much for a star player? If you want to see players targeted go watch Portugal-Brazil in 66.

Neymar was fouled 4 times before the not-called assault on him (would be the 5th), and he had suffered an average of 4.5 fouls per game so far. Not so distant, is it?

[Tele Santana]

Rob...for you.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Julio Cesar didn´t have much to do, Maicon was very good until his mistake on Colombia´s goal, where actually he had a case for receiving a foul from Armero, Thiago was great except for his silly foul that got him out of the semifinals, Luiz was very good as well, Marcelo is a player who lacks intelligence. In Colombia´s penalty, he shouldn´t have committed to a sliding tackle when if he could keep striding with Bacca there would be no play. His overwill is damaging to the team, although he is talented. Paulinho played well while he had gas, Oscar was good supporting defense but so so in attack.

19´ - Brazil (23) – Silva on Ospina. Clear foul, clear yellow. The only possible discussion is: in a match full of worthier plays, the first card of the game was issued on a silly and harmless foul.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

DJ - then again you read it, didn´t you? If you want a proper discussion, be precise. Don´t whine about the fact that a player receives 6 fouls during a match where the referee let anything goes, and close your eyes to the fact that the most violent fouls came from the underdog side (i.e. Zuniga´s assaults, Ibarbo, etc.).

How come Rodriguez was marked any differently from Neymar against Chile and I didn´t see that many indignant voices raised? Or when he received 30 fouls in 5 games in Confederations Cup - hummm, is that the average of what James received? Just checking.

Cheers,

Tele

[Tele Santana]

DJ,

Can you tell me which of the fouls on Rodriguez was more aggressive than the one Zuniga did on Hulk? I mean if you saw the game you should know...

[Tele Santana]

Reading,

Your account is closer to what indeed happened than what I have been seeing. The point here was to examine the game and see: who deserved to win, which kind of impact the officials had in the match - and I agree that both sides had some cases, but Brazil ended being more harmed - the only question is that because it won, it is downplayed and the supposed errors against Colombia are overplayed - for example: today there is a newspaper in Colombia calling the referee SOB and telling that the Yepes goal, clearly, but, clearly offsides, was legal. Like, what????? And my take, of course, on Zuniga´s assault on Neymar.

[noikeee]

Nobody gives a flying crap. I applaud the immense determination on trying to prove, errm, whatever the hell you're trying to prove, to an inexistent audience, though.

[DJ]

You are seriously asking me to present my opinion as FAKT like you do? Pull the other one

Neymar average foul per game would turn out to be approximating the number of dives per game the way I saw it. That discussion is going nowhere.

Tell you what - make a poll and let the forum users vote on it.

Did the refereeing in their last match give Brazil an advantage?

Yes

No

Once you count the single no vote, yours, [/hyperbole] maybe you'll be willing to give things another think.

[Tele Santana]

Thanks for being part of the global sense to it, direct from Ilha da Madeira! Vai Nacional!

[DJ]

Whoosh :confused:

[Tele Santana]

Yes DJ, Neymar wasn´t fouled in this World Cup, just dives. You are fact-based and correct. Just not . Still, it was fun for getting the hate out of you. Only a biased guy would say Brazil was benefited by the officiating. Most people were complaining about Brazil tactical fouls scheme, which is foolish as I reckon you know, from what I read in your defense of Netherlands in other threads.

Go there, kill those argies, De Jong them straight to the chest and get to the final, Orange Man!

Cheers,

Tele

[Pangaea]

Holy ****.

This may be the biggest rant I've read (hah!) here, so well done. Here's a cookie. It doesn't have special ingredients from Colombia or anything.

[Shpina]

Tele, calling it a fact doesn't make it so, neither does posting an essay make your opinion anymore valid.

Here's my observation: you could have done a much better job but opted to play the man instead of the ball. Much like the Brazilian team vs Colombia.

[Tele Santana]

Calling what a fact, Shpina, exactly?

If by essay you mean watching the match and bringing the chronology of events, the idea was exactly to apply context to the analysis, so it´s not just a matter of you say, I say.

Cheers,

Tele

[Pangaea]

We all saw the match, but we didn't see what you apparently did.

From a different thread it looks like you are Brazilian though, so that explains the bias I suppose. All Brazilians can't be like PMLF

[Jeroen Thijssen]

DJ,

By the way, to compare this Brazilian team with the Holland thugs of 2010 is ludicrous.

Why don't you analyze that game? You'll find out that the referee was atrocious and that the Dutch really weren't a lot more violent than the Spanish. It was very equal - look at the many fouls missed by Webb too.

[RubenJ]

The Dutch still delusional about that match

[Razzler]

This is the kind of justification I expect from MLG or the United thread

[Carmi88]

For the sake of his health i hope brazil win the world cup

[Ackter]

Of course they will, it's fixed.

[robbert_o154]

The Dutch still delusional about that match

Except we're really not. Nobody's saying the Dutch weren't up for a bit of gamemanship in that match, that's a strawman; rather what the Dutch are saying is that the black-and-white charicature people are so fond of putting forward, that of the angelic Spaniards vs the Dutch ubervillains is overly simplistic and that the truth contained considerable more shades of gray.

Which is why Tele's throwaway remark in post #9, in a thread where he's trying to make the same point about this year's Brazil team, is so funny.

[RubenJ]

The Spanish were well within their rights to fight back, seeing as the ref refused to hand out the red cards the dutch deserved. It's only natural, if they didn't they would have lost. So yeah it's actually very black and white to anyone looking at it from a neutral point of view.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Spanish deserved at least 2 red cards as well.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

You could do the De Jong kick off as an incident - sure, that could/should have been a red-card.. but the Spaniards had some horrible unacceptable charges as well. An eye for an eye? Maybe so... but that then underlines the point that the Spanish also played a (similar) foul game.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

So, it is very black and white and the teams matched each other in viciousness and ferocity too,..

[RubenJ]

Not just De Jong. Van Bommel should have seen red early on as well. And there were various other very dodgy tackles and challenges early on from the dutch.

After that, as Spain you have to think are we going to let this happen and lose this game, or are we going to do something. Holland really have absolutely nothing to complain about, because the other option would have been having 9 men on the pitch for 60 minutes.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

A yellow card was just there.

This was already when Van Persie got a harsh yellow card and Puyol had a rightful yellow card. Ramos received a harsh yellow card as well - and it wasn't till then (29th) minute that Nigel de Jong made that foul.

[RubenJ]

Not going to do a tele santana here, just saying the Netherlands got the (much) better end of that deal.

Had there been a ref not afraid to dish out (red) cards, you wouldn't have stood a chance in that final. The ref allowed you to stay in the game so any complaining about the ref or harsh play from Spain is just completely misplaced.

Van Bommel should have seen red several times in the tournament btw, he was incredibly lucky to even be allowed to start that final.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Ultimately the Spaniards scored a goal that should not have been a goal. Heitinga's sending off was also harsh, as his first yellow was harsh. His second yellow card is fair for a first yellow card - but considering his first yellow is harsh, then so is his 2nd yellow and thus red.

I agree that Nigel should have been sent off.

I'm done debating this, you can glance in the http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/391192-World-Cup-Referee-Appointments-Thread thread and look for post 18 if you see fit.

[RubenJ]

I'm not going to take your word for it if you say "bad call" or "good call" fgs

The first one, yellow card for Van Persie, wasn't harsh at all so I kind of stopped reading after that knowing it'd be pointless. And the fact that you can't see that Van Bommel foul should have been red as well shows how biased you are.

I've seen the match and have since seen the incidents plenty of times. With a fair ref you wouldn't have stood a chance

[Jeroen Thijssen]

I will take on board your opinions for future debates. RvP fully played the ball, it's questionable whether it's even a foul at all. I've provided plenty of examples where I show I'm not biased with the Spain calls too.

[Kerber]

Tele, don't waste your time.

People in this forum have a fear of Brazil being champions again that they exaggerate everything. That's the same reason why people became so happy after Spain elimination.

You can make polls like DJ said, be it would just confirm what I'm saying. People don't wanna see Brazil champion again. They need to find a reason for Brazil being so dominant in that match when Argentina, Netherlands and Germany couldn't be when facing weaker teams. And the only thing they could have is the number of fouls.

Everyone that saw Brazil Vs Colombia knows that Brazil was the only side that could have won that match. Many "fouls" of brazilian players weren't even fouls. That's why this stats are so wrong. I don't need to watch that match again.

People here just complain about referees helping Brazil, but we only saw an error against Croatia, and even in that match Croatia didn't deserved the victory more than Brazil.

It's very strange that our best player is out of the WC after that so called "more violent game ever" and all that help from the referees and FIFA.

FIFA could at least kick out Messi, Robben and Muller to help us out. Don't expect nothing less following all this help that we had so far.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

I think there were errors against Mexico too.

It's a bit similar with Holland four years ago. Brazil are perhaps slightly more aggressive and unsporting than we expect them to be - but that doesn't make them incredibly violent. And it's wonderful to see the home nation that disappoint (as they seem to be more unsporting and just not THAT sensational) choke.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah Brazil were not violent in that game, the ref just didnt control the game well enough.

HIGHLY amusing seeing a Dutch fan trying to play down Brazil as a dirty team, whilst almost completely ignoring the last wc final

[Elrethiel]

Colombia played scared, the first goal was because of lack of concentration, the offside goal was cancelled because of lack of concentration, the team only got into the game the last 10 minutes.

The Referee was awful but not biased, it was allowing a lot of hard play and you can argue that Brazil got the worst of it with Neymars injury, and Thiago's silly yellow card, it's hard to say even with a good referee I don't think the result would be different the way the Colombian side was playing unless something had clicked earlier.

[Kerber]

I think there were errors against Mexico too.

It's a bit similar with Holland four years ago. Brazil are perhaps slightly more aggressive and unsporting than we expect them to be - but that doesn't make them incredibly violent. And it's wonderful to see the home nation that disappoint (as they seem to be more unsporting and just not THAT sensational) choke.

Not capital errors against Mexico or any other after Croatia match. Just normal mistakes from both sides, and against Chile many people saw a bad disallowed goal and a penalty on Hulk.

[RubenJ]

I think Reddiablo meant Robbens dive against Mexico, not the Brazil match.

Right Red?

[Razzler]

Tele, don't waste your time.

People in this forum have a fear of Brazil being champions again that they exaggerate everything. That's the same reason why people became so happy after Spain elimination.

You can make polls like DJ said, be it would just confirm what I'm saying. People don't wanna see Brazil champion again.

Say what now

[gillsminnow]

I think Tele has dragged a few of his forum mates into here.