FM14 - New Tactical Elements

[dankrzyz]

Must say I love the fact that we'll now have four options at FB. It's such an important tactical role these days that it deserves more focus.

I must have missed a post or a screenshot. Link?

[RTHerringbone]

I must have missed a post or a screenshot. Link?

It was a tweet from Miles Jacobson a few days ago - the Roles Spart mentions in post #34 are what Miles tweeted.

[Spart]

What's a "half-back"? I wonder what would be the difference between a "False Nine", Deep-lying Forward (with support duty) and Trequartista.

No idea. I'm hoping it'll be a DM position that drops back, although the name doesn't quite fit that behaviour.

Looking forward to the video that explains it all. Hopefully it'll be out this Friday.

[ModernLefty]

The half back in my mind, sounds like something to do with the Bielsa-ist style of back 3, though for the life of me I cannot remember if it was the outside CBs that push wide or the shuttling fullbacks/CM (Vidal, and Isla for Chile) that were the half back style players.

[RTHerringbone]

Half Back is a tough one to call.

It was originally the term bandied around for Football Manager's equivalent of three central MC players, and we're already pretty well catered for there.

Half backs then evolved a bit, with the middle one dropping into the FM DC line (and subsequently called centre half), and the MCL and MCR type positions became left and right halfs, which presumably were the precursor to fullbacks. (All courtesy of our friends at Wikipedia).

I'll optimistically hope that the FM14 interpretation will be of a sort of "half full back", which will give me the Busquets Role I want!

[RTHerringbone]

A guy in General Discussion has had a go at interpreting the new roles, they seem like pretty good guesses to me:

Well more or less guessing here, but giving it a shot anyway:

halfback - defensive midfielder or anchorman w/ mentality-2, possibly no HUB and doesn't lower d-line like regular DMs

target flank man - winger assigned as target man w/ HUB, focus passing down his flank, less RWB and crossing

limited FB - more direct passing, less RWB/TTB, less CF than regular FB

complete wingback - wingback with increased CF and more TTB/RWB/LS

enganche - trequartista w/ CD, possibly less wide play, basically falls somewhere between advanced playmaker and trequartista

regista - deep-lying playmaker w/o HUB and increased CF, possibly roaming

False no 9 - advanced playmaker or enganche at FC

Shadow striker - FCa in midfield

[olivermain83]

I don't see the point in having Halfbacks? It's a position that has not been used since the pretty universal change to 424 in the 60's.

In the WM formation there were 3, Left Halfback, Centre Halfback and Right Halfback .The Centre Halfback was eventually withdrawn to become a Centre Back due to the change in the offside law so had reduced creative freedom. We English still often (incorrectly) refer to that position as a Centre Half due to this origin of the position. All these players became either defenders or Midfielders as tactics evolved into 424 and position 'halfback' has ceased to exist since then. If I had to guess though I'd say it was probably going to be more of a box to box role but in the DM position.

I'm assuming SI are using an old fashioned term to describe a players position and not particularly their role. Or maybe it's in there for people who like to try to recreate the tactics of yesteryear. Inside Forward is probably an example of this as an Inside forward would not be positioned on a wing. They were the 2 strikers to either side of the centre forward. They were later withdrawn to the AMC strata but still referred to as IF's.

With regards to a shadow striker, it's basically a goalscoring number 10. Maradona is probably the best example of this player. It's a role that is sometimes described as a 9 and a half. I imagine it'll be similar to an IF(S) but in the CF position with a lot of creative Freedom.

[yonko]

So the half-back roles sounds like something of a Busquets role, or at least that is what most are hoping for. The shadow striker seems like it would be a role for the AMC position and perhaps could be well paired up with a False Nine role (or Trequartista). Something like what Guardiola experimented with when trying 3-4-3 with Fabregas playing behind Messi.

But if that is the case, the Shadow Striker seems awfully close to Inside Forward. I can't wait to see some of these new roles in the new game, particularly the Half-back, Regista and Shadow Striker.

Does anybody have any clue if and when SI would shed some more light about these roles, like screenshots or short videos? To me, the most important side of the game and the reason I play it for so many years (since the CM days in the early/mid 90s) is the tactical side and ME. That's all I care about SI getting right and couldn't care less about any other improvements.

[RTHerringbone]

Does anybody have any clue if and when SI would shed some more light about these roles, like screenshots or short videos? To me, the most important side of the game and the reason I play it for so many years (since the CM days in the early/mid 90s) is the tactical side and ME. That's all I care about SI getting right and couldn't care less about any other improvements.

Miles definitely suggested that there would be a video released looking specifically at the new roles, but I can't recall a precise date being provided - I'll have a look and see....

EDIT - on 30/08/2013 Miles Tweeted "All will be explained about the new roles in a match & tactics videos in the coming weeks #FM14"

[yonko]

Miles definitely suggested that there would be a video released looking specifically at the new roles, but I can't recall a precise date being provided - I'll have a look and see....

EDIT - on 30/08/2013 Miles Tweeted "All will be explained about the new roles in a match & tactics videos in the coming weeks #FM14"

Thanks. I guess I'll be on the lookout for these Match & Tactics videos, hopefully sometime during the month of September.

[RTHerringbone]

Note that Miles has tweeted that a video will be released today which looks at some of the new tactical roles!

"This afternoons video will be about the new #FM14 tactics system - for those asking about Engache & Regista, pause it for full descriptions!"

EDIT: Here's the link:

[Cleon]

This is the video

[llama3]

Useful to read what the new roles are all about. Now I expect some brain to try applying them all into 1 tactic...

Would be interested to see how many of these are classed as specialist or non-specialist, and if it affects the suggested set-up of specialist and non-specialist roles in a team.

[RTHerringbone]

From the labels, I'd assume that the limited full back is non-specialist, but the others some pretty specialist to me.

Having watched the video a couple of times, it's quite exciting to see how the player instructions appear to work both before and during the games.

That pop-up for "Player Suitability" also looks pretty handy.

EDIT - more critical, and as has just been spotted in General Discussion, is the "doing away with the sliders".

I'm not particularly upset by that, as I like the TC and was one of those scared to faff about with sliders when I didn't really know what the knock-on effects would be.

[olivermain83]

EDIT - more critical, and as has just been spotted in General Discussion, is the "doing away with the sliders".

I'm not particularly upset by that, as I like the TC and was one of those scared to faff about with sliders when I didn't really know what the knock-on effects would be.

My only concern with that is I liked to look at the sliders to get a better idea of what to expect from certain roles. I assume now you'll have to rely entirely on descriptions.

[peleJunior]

Looks like 'half back' wil be a busquets type role, the description says it will make the central defenders push higher up and the half back drop deeper than a normal defensive midfielder. Brilliant!!

[Spart]

Looks like 'half back' wil be a busquets type role, the description says it will make the central defenders push higher up and the half back drop deeper than a normal defensive midfielder. Brilliant!!

Good eyesight that man!

[RTHerringbone]

Miles just whacked this comment in a similar GD thread:

Team instructions are done via what were called "touchline shouts" previously, but set before the match. As are fluidity and mentality.

As it says in the video, individual player shouts are also now possible, and these over-rule team instructions.

And yes, lots of coaches and managers were consulted about these changes at various levels of pro and semi-pro football, and people who coach coaches. Those conversations have been going on for multiple years, but it was Paul's decision to make the changes now to have one unified system, and it's a decision that I agree with completely.

The possible combinations are huge. People need to remember that we're trying to make a simulation of football management. The sliders didn't give us that. The new unified system does.

It's a fair comment. In spite of having no love for sliders, I like to know what an individuals' settings for passing, running, shooting, etc. are. Without that to look at I'll be a bit confused for a while, but like Miles implies, referring to sliders isn't really a realistic "simulation".

[Spart]

Agree with you about the confusion RTHerringbone. I think a bit of transitional pain will be worth it to move towards less gamey controls over our teams and tactics.

Individual shouts/instructions look great!

[peleJunior]

I took down the descriptions of the roles from the video....

The Half Back

The half back looks to serve a role somewhere between that of an aggressive sweeper and a defensive midfielder. With a half back, the central defenders themselves will push higher up the pitch while the half back drops deeper than a standard defensive midfielder and in addition to his defensive duties looks to offer an outlet for quickly recycling possession when attack break down

Limited Full Back

The limited full back knows his strengths and weaknesses and focuses predominately on his defensive duties, scarcely going forward into a more attacking role

Complete Wingback

The complete wingback loves to attack , and whilst he is capable of occupying his defensive duties, his natural inclination is to affect the game in the opposition defensive third

The Regista

The Regista is a more aggressive version of the deep lying playmaker. Suitable for possession orientated systems that press high up the pitch. Given complete freedom to dictate play from deep positions, the Regista offers a dynamic and unpredictable creative outlet from behind the attack who seeks to maintain intense pressure by constantly looking for new chances as his more advanced teammates get into goal scoring positions

The Engache

The Engache is the sides prime creator, a hook that joins the midfield and attack and operates behind the strikers and a playmaker who sticks to his position and becomes a pivot to his team as they move around him. It differs from the Trequartista, who likes to roam from his position, drifting around and looking for space between the lines.

The Wide Target Man

The wide target man will be the main outlet for clearances and long balls from the back. Ideally positioned against a smaller and weaker full back, he will be asked to get hold of the ball and keep it before recycling it to a team-mate.

The Shadow Striker

The Shadow Striker operates as the teams main goal scoring threat. Usually coupled with a deep lying forward, the Shadow Striker aggressively pushes forward into goal scoring positions as the ball moves into the final third and looks to close down opposing defenders when out of possession.

The False Nine

The False Nine, in some ways, similar to a more advanced attacking midfielder/playmaker role, is an unconventional lone striker or centre forward who drops deep into midfield. The purpose o this is that it creates a problem for opposing central defenders who can either follow him - leaving space behind them for onrushing midfielders, forwards or wingers to exploit - or leave him to have time and space to dribble or pick out a pass.

Can't wait to play around with complete wingbacks and the half backs. Really glad to see the engache too, Riquelme is easlily one of my favourite players for a few years back.

[däkkä]

Nailed all of them

[RTHerringbone]

The word "aggressive" for Regista is a bit misleading - aggression to me implies forceful pursuit of something, whereas I assume it means aggressive in terms of pure creativity?

Either way, it's great to finally see what these new roles claim to be - I wonder if the text associated with all the previous roles remains the same, or if they've tweaked any of them.

[peleJunior]

The word "aggressive" for Regista is a bit misleading - aggression to me implies forceful pursuit of something, whereas I assume it means aggressive in terms of pure creativity?

Either way, it's great to finally see what these new roles claim to be - I wonder if the text associated with all the previous roles remains the same, or if they've tweaked any of them.

Think it is more aggressive, in comparison to a deep lying playmaker, reading the description, it sounds like Xavi to me, who does play a little higher up the pitch than somebody like pirlo. I don't mind them taking out the sliders but I would have hoped atleast mentality would have remained because I liked the visual look it gave for where space was being created by the roles and duties.

[mojojojo101]

Some of the new roles look interesting and I'm interested to know how they will integrate with the already existing roles, for example the descriptions of the Limited Full back and Complete Wing Back seem quite similar to how I would interpret the Full Back (Defend) and Wing Back (Attack) respectively, likewise with the potential similarities and differences between Advanced Playmaker (Support) and Enganche.

Also it looks like the Ball-Winning Midfielder can be deployed in the DM position... will be interesting to see how that fits.

As for the personal shouts, I just hope that we won't be limited by what shouts we can use for what position, because I have become rather fond of having both DM's and DC's with RFD mixed or often.

Think it is more aggressive, in comparison to a deep lying playmaker, reading the description, it sounds like Xavi to me, who does play a little higher up the pitch than somebody like pirlo.

I interpreted aggressive as passing style and would say Pirlo was the more 'aggressive' of the two because he is more likely to look for long passes and through balls whereas Xavi is more likely to play safer and keep possession of the ball.

[peleJunior]

I interpreted aggressive as passing style and would say Pirlo was the more 'aggressive' of the two because he is more likely to look for long passes and through balls whereas Xavi is more likely to play safer and keep possession of the ball.

Possibly, maybe they press more aggressively then the deep lying playmaker, since it says it is ideal for teams that like to press higher up the pitch.

[iMan]

What's the point of the new False 9 role?

Hasn't every False 9 basically been a Treq or a DLF s?

[RTHerringbone]

What's the point of the new False 9 role?

Hasn't every False 9 basically been a Treq or a DLF s?

That's what I'm assuming. I'm not convinced all of these new roles are "that" different from ones that are already available.

[Midnight Rob]

indeed, window dressing? We shall see.

[Lord Rowell]

I think they're all different from the options we've had and complement the existing roles, giving us more options.

I'd be interested to hear what people think of the "Shadow Striker" and examples of this. I'm thinking someone who drops back but breaks forwards quickly / aggressively / with purpose. Examples?

Re. the false 9. In my experience of previous FM's, Treqs have the deep movement of a false nine but also loads of creativity that a false nine wouldn't have so my thought would be its similar to a Treq but with less creative freedom.

[peleJunior]

I think the false nine won't have roaming like the treq. More a focal point. Shadow striker sounds like maradona or Roberto baggio, maybe a touch of Dennis bergkamp but all those players were creative too so maybe an element of that.

[iMan]

I think the false nine won't have roaming like the treq. More a focal point.

A DLF s will provide that.

A False 9 isn't a new role in football. Roma with Totti just moved a treq up top. Barca with Messi just used a treq up top.

United with Rooney and Tevez just used a DLF up top.

False 9 is just a term for already existing roles when they are played up top by themselves as opposed to some newly invented role.

Just seems like they are over complicating things.

[yonko]

^ I agree.

I was wondering how the new roles would affect the sliders and if there would be more sliders, instead they've removed all them altogether. Interesting.....now we would have to rely on descriptions and watching the actual match to figure out what each role does and how they interact with each other.

[TOUGHGUY]

I like that the game is moving towards a more realistic individual instructions element with basically using 'shouts' for player settings.

However, if this comes at the price of 1) not being able to see the instructions in more detail and 2) only giving the player one step in each direction for every instruction, then I think that's a rather bad execution of a solid idea.

Ad 1, a one paragraph description of a role is insufficient in a video game. When many settings are simply often-normal-rarely at their core – and there seems to be no indication that the game is doing anything but papering over the slider system – then I would like to see that as opposed to guessing what precisely 'the player will attempt through balls when in a position to do so' means. Or there is the issue of basic role settings, a deep lying playmaker is not a particularly creative player even if you might think otherwise.

And as far as point number 2 is concerned, until now I would use, say, an attacking midfielder because I liked his overall settings, but at the same time I would completely override a particular setting. His instructions fit him perfectly except one, which I would manually lower or turn off completely. With the new approach, I am worried this will not be possible and only a 'one step' shift in either direction will be possible, i.e. long shots only from often to normal, or aggressive pressing to slightly less as opposed to not closing down at all. That, and also the overall team tactics – if a player is already told to 'press more', will he press even more should a team shout be used?

This is not some blind defense of sliders, those are needlessly complicated and unintuitive, but their concept is valid and, for a video game, necessary. As I said I like the idea of 'wordy' instructions, but until the day when user input and how the game interprets it mirrors real life football to a fantastic degree, it needs to be accompanied with the mechanical side of things.

[däkkä]

Toughguy I agree. I especially hate having to rely to one-sentence Gary Neville descriptions to understand what the role does. It just can not describe the role well enough or in specific terms.

What they've basically done is reduce player input to make the ME more simple as to make the whole system easier to balance. They can focus on getting tactical ideas right and I suspect that there'll be some role-specific ME events already in FM14.

[rune_star]

...but at the same time I would completely override a particular setting. His instructions fit him perfectly except one, which I would manually lower or turn off completely. With the new approach, I am worried this will not be possible

According to the video, this will now be handled through individual 'shouts', IE telling the player to try long shoots more often or more seldom.

if a player is already told to 'press more', will he press even more should a team shout be used?

Individual shouts override team shouts, is what they said. So no, he would not press even more...

I think it's a matter of preference, but personally I welcome the new approach as most of the community have been hammering at the slider system for YEARS saying it's unrealistic in terms of FM being a simulator. I agree with that, and the more 'authentic' approach this new system seems to give appear to be WAY more realistic! You would probably tell Daniel Alves to run forward at every opportunity, but you wouldn't be saying "run forward with a value of 18"

I think it all comes down to the number of choices and combinations in the game. If they're plentiful, I think this could be one of the most welcome changes to the core game for years...

[TOUGHGUY]

According to the video, this will now be handled through individual 'shouts', IE telling the player to try long shoots more often or more seldom.

I think it's a matter of preference, but personally I welcome the new approach as most of the community have been hammering at the slider system for YEARS saying it's unrealistic in terms of FM being a simulator. I agree with that, and the more 'authentic' approach this new system seems to give appear to be WAY more realistic! You would probably tell Daniel Alves to run forward at every opportunity, but you wouldn't be saying "run forward with a value of 18"

Have you even read my post? I am completely aware of that. In fact, in the bit you quoted I actually say so and address that exact issue with an example that was possible until now, but now might not be.

The rationale behind the new approach is sound. But I feel as if there needs to be a much wider variety of options. Right now it would appear to only present relative changes to the underlying slider system, i.e. 'do more/less of X'. At the very least it also needs absolutes, 'always/never do X', as well as instructions that are not explicitly tied to the slider system, i.e. defensive or attacking positioning (for example the functionality of f/b/s arrows, however broken, has never been recreated in the game after their removal).

[Norrbacka]

I've been playing FM for many years, and the change to remove the sliders from FM, makes me ambivalent. Sure, it brings increased realism but also restricts one as a player. There is a scenario I usually use when I design my playmaker (in a team that play slow, short passing football):

Team Mentality: Standard/Controll, short passing

OMC-role: Offensive Playmaker, Attack

Manual changes:

Passing set to: 15 (about 10 by default)

Mentality set to: 15 (about 13 by default)

This changes makes my playmaker more offensive in regards of decisions - in comparison to the rest of my team. He really looks for a killer pass quite often. I don't se a way to do this in the upcoming version of FM. Is it realistic? Well, yes. Because if I set a team mentaltiy to offensive instead of standard/control, the playmaker plays like this! But I want him to act offensively when I play a less offensive team-mentality like standard/controll. How can I possibly accomplish this in the new FM? I don't think I can. And that makes no sense. It is not less realistic to fine tune roles because the TC is still limited when it comes to the depth/levels of the player-instructions.

However, if there was more levels to every text-instructions in FM14. I would be much less disturbed by these changes. For example, if I could give the offensive playmaker another mentality then the rest of the team I would still achieve the behaviour I want. Or if I could manually, by the player instruction panel, instruct on exactly how "risky" his passning is going to be, or how "attacking" I want him to act. We need more choices in regards of player-specific instructions if this is going to be any more realistic than earlier versions of the game.

This restrictions can be applied in many other cases. Sometimes I use manually instructions to have a defensive midfielders with the lowest mentality possible and the lowest passing possible, this makes him to nearly always pick an easy pass sideways. Increasing both the teams possession and keeps up the teams positional structure in a good way. This also when I play a standard/controll-mentality. Sometimes even an offensive approach. These settings is otherwise only possible if you play the lowest team-mentality! I guess this is also impossible in FM14. Sure, you can tell the player to be a defensiv midfielder role, and to play short passes, and it will give a similar effect, but as long as the team mentality is not very defensive, he will still play the longer pass instead of keep possession, or move a little bit to far up on the pitch leaving the defensive part of the midfield uncovered.

In regards of player instuctions I would like to se something like this:

Passing (Text-Instructions):

Always risky passing = about 19-20 in slider instructions, meaning long pass really. Maybe there should be long-ball clearance instruction as well.

often risky passing = about 15-18 (What I want my playmaker to do, dispite team mentality)

risky passing = 13-14

mixed passing = 8-12

less risky passing = 5-7

rarely risky passing = 2-4

never risky passing = 0-1

Then I still could fine-tune the passing for every player how I want. It feels wrong that I can not instruct the player to play extremly direct when the team mentality is fairly defensive

[rune_star]

Have you even read my post? I am completely aware of that. In fact, in the bit you quoted I actually say so and address that exact issue with an example that was possible until now, but now might not be.

Hard to quote someone, if you haven't read the statements, right? I'm really sorry if I misunderstood your post, but I've re-read it, and I still don't see the difference? From what all sources gather, it WILL be possible to override. Not in here to start an argument though, so sorry in advance if I get your meaning wrong...

But generally on the issue of removing the sliders, I think it's a matter of what the FM players' prefer. Personally I'm not sure whether or not this new system will work, but I do hail the introduction of a new system as the sliders were getting a bit 'used'.

If realism is preferred, I see the removal of the infamous sliders as the right move. I still have a very hard time imagining high-level coaches (or low level for that matter) instructing players to make risky passes X percent of the time, or giving any kind of instructions in parameters divided by x amount of numbers. It's probably a bit more realistic to imagine something along the lines of the new system, although truth is that neither system will ever 'nail' it completely for obvious reasons

I do however see that the slider-free system removes the ability for FM players (playing the game as an ordinary computer game with math, logic and variables) to read EXACTLY what your players are doing, but again... in terms of realism, isn't this the logical way to go? I'm probably repeating myself way too much here, but giving players tactical and strategical instructions in values from 1-20 isn't all that realistic is it?

Maybe it's just me, but having played CM and later FM for over 20 years, it's a VERY welcome change PROVIDED that they give us enough opportunities to make it near as flexible as the old system. I for one, have missed the more 'managerial' feel of the game as fiddling with the sliders to hit EXACTLY 17, not 16 or 18, have just grown to ridiculous to keep me in the "I'm really making a great tactic for my players" zone

[RTHerringbone]

As far as realism goes, I guess it's about leading the eye away from a measure (sliders) which claim to tell you what's going on, towards a measure (using your eyes to watch matches) which tells you exactly what's going on.

I must have watched Friday's video ten times now, and whilst it worried me a lot at the start, it kind of feels "OK" now. I like the idea of individual "Shouts" (player instructions).

It's actually a big jump from FM13 in that respect, so I'm pretty optimistic.

FM13 Team Instructions were rather rigid for people like me who don't like to touch sliders, so the fact we should be able to tweak individual Roles within the broader framework of the TC is actually quite significant for non-slider tweakers.

[yonko]

I do however see that the slider-free system removes the ability for FM players (playing the game as an ordinary computer game with math, logic and variables) to read EXACTLY what your players are doing, but again... in terms of realism, isn't this the logical way to go? I'm probably repeating myself way too much here, but giving players tactical and strategical instructions in values from 1-20 isn't all that realistic is it?

You may be right that it isn't realistic to have instructional values 1-20, but then again players IRL don't have attributes values 1-20 either.

At the end of the day FM is a simulation game and will never be real life football. Removing the sliders is just about removing the visualization of the ME mechanism. Nevertheless the mechanism I suspect remains the same and in the game. Why remove the visualization to aid the user to see how his instructions impact that mechanism?

I will tell you that as soon as the TC was introduced I embraced it and never used Classic tactics again. But I still looked at the sliders to see how much difference my instructions made from player to player in terms of mentality, closing down, creative freedom, passing, etc. Now, how will I know/measure how much the passing of my fullback differs from my playmaker if I told one to pass less direct while telling the other one to pass more directly? How much more/less directly would their passing be? Perhaps I would want/need more difference........

I don't know about others, but I guess I just used the slider as way to visualize the mechanism of the tactical system. Now I would have to guess.....

[yonko]

As far as realism goes, I guess it's about leading the eye away from a measure (sliders) which claim to tell you what's going on, towards a measure (using your eyes to watch matches) which tells you exactly what's going on.

I must have watched Friday's video ten times now, and whilst it worried me a lot at the start, it kind of feels "OK" now. I like the idea of individual "Shouts" (player instructions).

It's actually a big jump from FM13 in that respect, so I'm pretty optimistic.

FM13 Team Instructions were rather rigid for people like me who don't like to touch sliders, so the fact we should be able to tweak individual Roles within the broader framework of the TC is actually quite significant for non-slider tweakers.

How do you know that the framework of the TC is broader from the video? I don't think the video showed enough of the tactical system to make that conclusion. Therefore I suspect (and hope) that there will be more videos showing us the tactical side of FM14, especially since the makers have decided to do away with the sliders. This is as bold move as removing wibble/wobble years ago on CM. At least wibble/wobble was more realistic.

[RTHerringbone]

How do you know that the framework of the TC is broader from the video?

I just meant that it looks like we can do these individual instructions without destroying the broader TC setup for our tactic.

With sliders we could tweak (and break) tactics at individual player level but we couldn't do that within the bounds of the TC in a TC friendly way before.

[Svenc]

instructions that are not explicitly tied to the slider system, i.e. defensive or attacking positioning (for example the functionality of f/b/s arrows, however broken, has never been recreated in the game after their removal).

That wasn't technically broken, it was however fundamentally unsound. This wasn't about positioning, positioning in football is a dynamic thing. The arrows of old simply let you assign two positions to a single player, say, without the ball your number 9 was an advanced midfielder, with the ball suddenly a forward. That isn't positioning, that is something that doesn't exist in football at all. A football match is a dynamic thing, positioning happens within a string of moves and patterns, the play moves up and down the pitch, space gets opened up, the player moves within that space. Still, there wasn't any movement/runs as such in the arrows, players took positions no matter what, I think (and may be wrong on this) not even stamina was affected. If it did, players wouldn't have been able to exploit the ME and overload the AI with the many crazy arrow tactics without facing a serious backlash when going all extreme on this. Technically, coaching a real team, you could surely demand of a player to always disregard all play completely and move to a specific position or zone on the pitch when the ball is won/lost ASAP. But is football IRL really played that way?

Whilst there are many things you can't recreate in the ME thus far, for instance the a DM dropping back in between the CBs when going forward and similarily sophisticated instructions, in a way, the basic formation represents your without ball/defensive positions (though they can change dynamically too), whilst run from deep instructions / duties change the shape of your team dynamically when in posession/attacking, that is with actual match context and play and player decisions in mind.

The actual positioning is still there, it just isn't open for everything that exists within real football (yet?).

I'm wondering how the new roles will fit in here too. There's quite some overlap with the existing roles already. But as has been hinted at by PaulC, if SI ever went solely TC and a finite number of defined concepts rather than an infinite number of slider combinations, they could focus solely on those concepts. That is, ideally the roles (and everything else about the TC) could turn out far easier distinguishable from play than it is now. This kind of sounds like a contradiction at first with micro-control being lost, but in terms of variety in ME play for both yours as well as the AI teams alike this could be quite a change. A change for the better. There's no guarantee for that of course, but I think the benefits of tweaking towards clearly defined concepts which can be mixed in a multitude of ways rather than a huge amount of completely unpredictable slider combinations can be generally understood. This is simple Maths.

It's time for a far better (TC) official documentation though. And each instruction needs to be clearly visualized or outlined, either by good text or else. Food for thought: Had the sliders not once existed, you wouldn't worry about getting a peek at low-level instructions, micro-tweaks and entered numbers "under the hood" at all and simply focus on the options available and their hopefully sufficient descriptions your'e given. Maybe you'd think they wouldn't be sufficient, so you'd demand more and better and more details. Maybe you wouldn't. Of course it's moot given how long the sliders have been a visible part of the game now that you've come to get used to. Except for the those holding Champ Man still in high regards, nobody has ever seen anything different from this series. But yet it's true.

[yonko]

I just meant that it looks like we can do these individual instructions without destroying the broader TC setup for our tactic.

With sliders we could tweak (and break) tactics at individual player level but we couldn't do that within the bounds of the TC in a TC friendly way before.

I still think the video showed very little to make any conclusions regarding that. But there are many ways to destroy a tactic, even without manually tweaking sliders, such as giving multiple players the wrong roles. I'm sure that there would be plenty of ways to destroy tactics in FM14 as well under the new system, especially since visualization of the instructions is removed.

[higgins]

Toughguy I agree. I especially hate having to rely to one-sentence Gary Neville descriptions to understand what the role does. It just can not describe the role well enough or in specific terms.

What they've basically done is reduce player input to make the ME more simple as to make the whole system easier to balance. They can focus on getting tactical ideas right and I suspect that there'll be some role-specific ME events already in FM14.

Completely agree with this post, it will be easier for the ME coders but will surely provide less fun for the gamers, we simply lost the chance to custom players role to better suit our tactics.

Less control=less fun.

[higgins]

You may be right that it isn't realistic to have instructional values 1-20, but then again players IRL don't have attributes values 1-20 either.

At the end of the day FM is a simulation game and will never be real life football. Removing the sliders is just about removing the visualization of the ME mechanism. Nevertheless the mechanism I suspect remains the same and in the game. Why remove the visualization to aid the user to see how his instructions impact that mechanism?

I will tell you that as soon as the TC was introduced I embraced it and never used Classic tactics again. But I still looked at the sliders to see how much difference my instructions made from player to player in terms of mentality, closing down, creative freedom, passing, etc. Now, how will I know/measure how much the passing of my fullback differs from my playmaker if I told one to pass less direct while telling the other one to pass more directly? How much more/less directly would their passing be? Perhaps I would want/need more difference........

I don't know about others, but I guess I just used the slider as way to visualize the mechanism of the tactical system. Now I would have to guess.....

This makes sense, + 1.

This argument about sliders and realism is simply absurd, with the new tactical system we just don't know what's going on under the hood.

[RTHerringbone]

This argument about sliders and realism is simply absurd, with the new tactical system we just don't know what's going on under the hood.

Equally, the argument that sliders invoke realism is flawed.

What is realism? I think you get realism and control mixed up. Sliders give more control, but they are not realistic, and never have been.

FM is a simulation of football management - how do managers convey their instructions?

[higgins]

Equally, the argument that sliders invoke realism is flawed.

What is realism? I think you get realism and control mixed up. Sliders give more control, but they are not realistic, and never have been.

FM is a simulation of football management - how do managers convey their instructions?

Surely not saying "I'd like you to play as a shadow striker in the first half, then like a false nine..."

Real managers use drawing boards nowadays, sliders could simply be seen as visual representation of a drawing board, this claim for realism is so funny, too many people take this game too seriously.

I still think real football is another thing.

By the way, sliders worked quite well for 20 years, I bet this new system won't last so long.

[RTHerringbone]

Surely not saying "I'd like you to play as a shadow striker in the first half, then like a false nine..."

Real managers use drawing boards nowadays, sliders could simply be seen as visual representation of a drawing board, this claim for realism is so funny, too many people take this game too seriously.

I still think real football is another thing.

By the way, sliders worked quite well for 20 years, I bet this new system won't last so long.

OK - humour me.

If saying "Play as a False Nine or Shadow Striker" is so wrong, articulate the same using slider terms and persuade me that this terminology is more realistic.

What's on these managerial drawing boards? Numbers or arrows depicting movement and passing instructions?

Sliders could be seen as a visual representation of that, but surely so can player instructions?

"Here's our right winger. I've drawn an arrow to show that I want him to dribble up the flank and cross from the byline".

Is that better represented using numerical values for Runs With Ball and Cross Ball From, or text saying "Run Up Flank" and "Cross From Byline"?

It's easy to dismiss a new idea, but I'm yet to see a pro-slider argument that makes me stop to reconsider my stance.

Again, everyone is entitled to their opinions. I'm a straight forward, logical thinker, and cannot see a valid argument that sliders are realistic.

All I see is unsubstantiated claims that Shouted Player Instructions aren't realistic. Why not?

I've said why I think that sliders are unrealistic in a football simulation, why do you perceive them to be realistic, and Shouts not to be?

Finally, none of us even have seen this new system in action other than a glimpse of a video. Let's wait and see what happens when the demo comes out.

[Cleon]

Surely not saying "I'd like you to play as a shadow striker in the first half, then like a false nine..."

Real managers use drawing boards nowadays, sliders could simply be seen as visual representation of a drawing board, this claim for realism is so funny, too many people take this game too seriously.

I still think real football is another thing.

By the way, sliders worked quite well for 20 years, I bet this new system won't last so long.

You say people take this game too serious then moan for 4 days about the new changes and because you feel you've lost control and depth? Sounds like you are taking the game too serious if you ask me....

Sliders didn't work well for 20 years either. The sliders have always been flawed since wibble wobble was removed, anyone saying different is slightly deluded. It's just the game wasn't tailored to use a different system and needed a lot of changes to be put into place before the sliders side of the game was changed. Something existing due to no better alternative is different to something actually working. People have been asking for a better system for years, as you've been a member long enough you probably have seen a fair amount of indepth threads asking for this change over the years.

Sliders aren't a proper representation because you can't even visually see the difference in every single notch. So anyone who claims it gave them more control is imagining it because the difference in each notch doesn't make a difference visually. So how can you feel you lost control when you never really saw the control to begin with? The fact you think you had more control because of the notches shows you didn't have a full grasp on what the sliders actually did to begin with or you'd know that the control they gave wasn't really full control over what you was doing. All they have ever done is give the user a false sense of control.

How are numbered sliders useful for translating drawing boards? I don't see the logic. The shouts system is more appropriate because anyone who watches football will see the manager doing this during games.

All you and others keep saying is loss of depth, the shouts aren't a good enough way of translating instructions but none of you can back up why you think that with logical reasoning. You seem to use sliders as your argument for a better more in-depth game and a better representation of realism which is equally laughable. You've not even played the new module yet and already decided it can't work and you've 'lost' something from the game when in reality you don't know that's true.

People have already made their mind up that something doesn't work before even trying it themselves which to me is silly. Not sure how people can make statements like 'lost depth, less control' etc when you don't know that for sure, you are guessing at a lot of things yet post like something is a fact.

If and when you try it and give it enough time to get used of the new system and still think you've lost depth etc then you have a valid point. But any claims before hand is pure ridiculous.

The argument shouldn't be about realism either because we are playing a game and no matter what, the game will never be realistic. The argument should be about configuration and finding the best way to translate instructions into the game and still allowing the user customization and control over this. Sliders have always offered ambiguity to the user and caused more problem than anything, you can search all around the forum and find thousands of arguments about this.

This isn't me showing blind faith in the game either because I have my own idea on how they could have removed the sliders and implemented something to still give the same control that is user friendly. But I'll reserve making a rash judgement until I try the new system myself and work out its limitations.