FM14 - New Tactical Elements

[tomtuck01]

Exactly!!! Wingers!!! Guardiola doesn't/didn't employ wingers!

[RTHerringbone]

Mercurio.3 I have to say I'm lost with this one.

They stay wide until the final third and then cut inside. If that's not an Inside Forward, then I don't know what is.

And yet earlier you said:

No man. With 3-3-4 wingers didn't cut inside. They just open all the time, while Fàbregas, Messi, Iniesta and Xavi move in that free space in the middle.

I said Guardiola's Barcelona in a 3-3-4. Wingers open wide, just receiving and holding the ball to pass to a close teammate in orden to open opposite defensive line and create free space into the middle for other players. Is it irracional? Ask Pep Guardiola.

This isn't what the clip shows?

[avex]

Just because they're playing out on the wing, doesn't mean they're a winger. Wingers dribble to the byline and cross. An Inside Forward with an attack duty will do what you're talking about. Push high and wide, and then cut into that space they've created. The "striker" (Messi) is dropping deep and then running at the defenders with the ball creating all sorts of havoc ("wingers" crashing inside and the ball being dribbled at central defenders).

I've seen nearly every Barcelona match since Rijkaard arrived (pre season included), and Barcelona has used wingers several times.

Barcelona in season 2011-2012 used them as wingers. Guardiola played most of the season using a 3-4-3/3-3-4 with two extremely wide players that rarely cut inside, and rarely crossed the ball. They weren't inside forwards. They didn't cut inside. They were always close to the line. Only thing is they didn't acted like a classic winger, they were somehow "pushpin" players. Their main duty was to make the field wide, receive the ball and then hold it until a midfielder or attacking midfielder arrived unmarked.

One manager even make jokes about how boring the game should be for those two players, after a match where Isaac Cuenca (left winger that day) received like 30 times wide, and every single time he held the ball until some defender came for him, and then passed back the ball to a midfielder. He never tried to progress inside the area and only crossed like once. Why? Because that wasn't part of the plan. His job (the same for Adriano, who was playing in the opposite side) was to make the opposite defensive line wider, so there was some space between the defenders.

That season Messi wasn't usually the striker. Messi played closer to a classic 10, while Alexis or Cesc acted as strikers. Wingers didn't cut inside, because there was a striker.

A clear example was the 1-3 against Real Madrid in the Santiago Bernabeu. After two minutes Guardiola turned his initial 4-3-3 into a 3-4-3, where Alexis played as striker, Dani Alves as right winger (not inside forward, not wing back, was a clear attacking winger) and if I recall correctly Iniesta as left winger.

There's even a conference where Guardiola explained that in Argentina. He explained that his mantra was to create space in the center. That everything he did (using wingers, using Alexis as Striker, closing with 3...) was aimed to give some space to Messi.

[avex]

Mercurio.3 I have to say I'm lost with this one.

They stay wide until the final third and then cut inside. If that's not an Inside Forward, then I don't know what is.

And yet earlier you said:

This isn't what the clip shows?

Is what the clip shows, but that seems to be done with LF/RF who never cross, neither cut inside.

Seriously, no one here has ever tried wide wingers close to the line that never cross? I usually don't allow anyone in my whole team cross (love short-technically gifted strikers), or make long shots. And not so many to run with the ball.

[Mercurio.3]

This isn't what the clip shows?

Yes it is. But you can see my wingers "hug touchline", not "cut inside". They do Granada's Full Backs stay open wide marking them all the time, so I have free space in the middle to play. It's beautiful. And playing with no strikers (3 CMs, 2 AMCs). My width team was 20 and Control Strategy.

[dooro23]

So whatever FC Barcalyojuvester United played in 1896, wouldn't a Wide Target Man be the choice for the ranting guy?

[RTHerringbone]

Yes it is. But you can see my wingers "hug touchline", not "cut inside". They do Granada's Full Backs stay open wide marking them all the time, so I have free space in the middle to play. It's beautiful. And playing with no strikers (3 CMs, 2 AMCs). My width team was 20 and Control Strategy.

Apologies, I see what you're saying now.

What would happen if you used an Attacking Inside Forward and asked him to Stay Wider and Get Further Forward?

You'd reduce the crossing and increase the width, and that width would be increased further with the more attacking Strategies.

[avex]

And actually, I have serious doubts that managers talk about players been so many metres up or down the pitch. They might talk about a midfielder getting close to the strikers, or another holidng his position infront of the central defenders. But I highly doubt the line came "Roy, make sure you stay 7-10 metres infront of Jaap and Henning at all times."

Actually they do. It's called "positional football", being Louis Van Gaal its biggest defender. Dutch school since Rinus Michels, and nowadays "Barça school". That's also why some great players fail to accommodate to Barcelona style (Yaya Toure, Ibrahimovic), while young players who learned in Barça school fit seamlessly (even the less talented like Isaac Cuenca or Jonathan Dos Santos).

[Mercurio.3]

So whatever FC Barcalyojuvester United played in 1896, wouldn't a Wide Target Man be the choice for the ranting guy?

That was only 2 years ago. It's today, not 1896.

Apologies, I see what you're saying now.

What would happen if you used an Attacking Inside Forward and asked him to Stay Wider and Get Further Forward?

You'd reduce the crossing and increase the width, and that width would be increased further with the more attacking Strategies.

Maybe. But more attacking Strategie means more attacking Mentality. And this way to play requiries to be extremely patient in possession.

[dooro23]

Not the point, it's whether a Wide Target Man would be the thing you're looking for, not arguing who played what in 1896, 2013 or 2064.

[tomtuck01]

Actually they do. It's called "positional football", being Louis Van Gaal its biggest defender. Dutch school since Rinus Michels, and nowadays "Barça school". That's also why some great players fail to accommodate to Barcelona style (Yaya Toure, Ibrahimovic), while young players who learned in Barça school fit seamlessly (even the less talented like Isaac Cuenca or Jonathan Dos Santos).

I just don't see it myself that you would instruct a player to play within X-number metres in relation to position-Y on the field.

[Mercurio.3]

Not the point, it's whether a Wide Target Man would be the thing you're looking for, not arguing who played what in 1896, 2013 or 2064.

But I don't want my other players search them as Target Man. That would ruin my game! I want to exploit the free space in the middle.

[themadsheep2001]

I just don't see it myself that you would instruct a player to play within X-number metres in relation to position-Y on the field.

They dont instruct, rather they teach them to play like that iirc. Sacchi's Milan 4-4-2 shape was built on that ideal. Although I'm pretty sure its actually between players, and not a rigid position on the pitch. That I agree is very wierd.

[tomtuck01]

They dont instruct, rather they teach them to play like that iirc. Sacchi's Milan 4-4-2 shape was built on that ideal. Although I'm pretty sure its actually between players, and not a rigid position on the pitch. That I agree is very wierd.

Exactly. It's very different to what I'm talking about in relation to FM and the old Slider system.

[themadsheep2001]

Anyway got home, and opened up FM

The role you want for this is certainly Inside forward attack, probably using Balanced mentality. Instruct them to play higher, and get further forward.

[avex]

I just don't see it myself that you would instruct a player to play within X-number metres in relation to position-Y on the field.

Never seen Van Gaal mad because some player was out of his position? LoL Even critizing him in public because he wasn't positionally disciplined? That happened between him and a Ballon D'Or winner.

You don't tell the exact meters, there are lots of team whose formation is clearly seen every time. You see always midfielder perfectly staggered, having always clear triangles drawn with every 3 players. That's made telling every player exactly where you want him. You don't say someone "I want you close to strikers", but "I want you always 20 or 30 meters deeper than the strikers, and always at the right side and higher than the DMC, but deeper then the left midfielder... ".

[themadsheep2001]

Never seen Van Gaal mad because some player was out of his position? LoL Even critizing him in public because he wasn't positionally disciplined? That happened between him and a Ballon D'Or winner.

You don't tell the exact meters, there are lots of team whose formation is clearly seen every time. You see always midfielder perfectly staggered, having always clear triangles drawn with every 3 players. That's made telling every player exactly where you want him. You don't say someone "I want you close to strikers", but "I want you always 20 or 30 meters deeper than the strikers, and always at the right side and higher than the DMC, but deeper then the left midfielder... ".

Right, but that is nothing to do with being in a position relative to a spot on a pitch, and certainly not instructing them to. Its relative to the positioning of the other players.

That's exactly what I'm talking about with Sacchi's 4-4-2

[Svenc]

Anyway got home, and opened up FM

The role you want for this is certainly Inside forward attack, probably using Balanced mentality. Instruct them to play higher, and get further forward.

Don't have the beta, but is there an equal to the "get further forward" instruction within the tactical setup of old? Previously, using the TC, it was primarily duties that gave players license to move forward, but there wasn't an instruction as to how far and where to move to exactly as such. (In fact, the only time FM had something like that was in the Farrows of old, but as they weren't implemented as runs into space, but were followed no matter what, with players effectively employing two positions at once and just swapping between them w/ball w/o ball, they where fundamentally unsound in their implementation).

[Cleon]

Actually they do. It's called "positional football", being Louis Van Gaal its biggest defender. Dutch school since Rinus Michels, and nowadays "Barça school". That's also why some great players fail to accommodate to Barcelona style (Yaya Toure, Ibrahimovic), while young players who learned in Barça school fit seamlessly (even the less talented like Isaac Cuenca or Jonathan Dos Santos).

I recently interviewed someone (Quique Álvarez) from La Masia (for something I'll be releasing after christmas) and asked them about this and there isn't really much truth to positional play. While it does happen to some extent its not done in the way you think it is in this thread. They certainly don't talk about metres, what they actually do is talk about exploiting space infront and behind the oppositions players and the player is told to use this area. It's all determined by the oppositions players and how deep or high up the pitch they'll be.

[ShirazS]

Could you not use a winger out wide but add the instruction exploit the middle so all of the passes from wide come into the center?

[Mxl]

Im missing all of the options from 13 :/// really boring the tactics in 14. You should have alot more to pick from :/ you can do better then this sigames

[themadsheep2001]

Im missing all of the options from 13 :/// really boring the tactics in 14. You should have alot more to pick from :/ you can do better then this sigames

What options are you missing from FM13, that are not here?

[themadsheep2001]

Don't have the beta, but is there an equal to the "get further forward" instruction within the tactical setup of old? Previously, using the TC, it was primarily duties that gave players license to move forward, but there wasn't an instruction as to how far and where to move to exactly as such. (In fact, the only time FM had something like that was in the Farrows of old, but as they weren't implemented as runs into space, but were followed no matter what, with players effectively employing two positions at once and just swapping between them w/ball w/o ball, they where fundamentally unsound in their implementation).

There is an instruction to tell them to get further forward ( this was on the Inside forward attack instructions). I will screenshot it for you later, if no one else has done by then

[Svenc]

There is an instruction to tell them to get further forward ( this was on the Inside forward attack instructions). I will screenshot it for you later, if no one else has done by then

I have seen this myself in the preview Videos already, but thanks. Just wondering if there was something equalling it in the TC of old. As duties are still in, it can't be just a link to RFD instructions.

[Tactikzz]

Has FM14 stopped the use of Fullbacks and Wingbacks roaming from position? I can't seem to find the option to allow this setting – it's greyed out.

Thanks.

[tomtuck01]

Has FM14 stopped the use of Fullbacks and Wingbacks roaming from position? I can't seem to find the option to allow this setting – it's greyed out.

It has been mentioned a few times that rational football thinking is needed.

With that in mind, who instructs their fullbacks to roam from their position? It's a bit of a ridiculous notion. Yes tell them to get forward, in some cases, (David Santon at Newcastle perhaps), cut inside. But I just can't imagine why you would want a fullback to roam?

[dannyfc]

So am I right in thinking you can no longer direct to play into feet/head for a TM? Would Berbatov receive the same supply as Drewe Broughton?

[RTHerringbone]

TM supply relates to team passing style. If you are direct, they'll target his head, if you pass short, they'll target his feet.

[Da_Funk]

It has been mentioned a few times that rational football thinking is needed.

With that in mind, who instructs their fullbacks to roam from their position? It's a bit of a ridiculous notion. Yes tell them to get forward, in some cases, (David Santon at Newcastle perhaps), cut inside. But I just can't imagine why you would want a fullback to roam?

10 or 20 years ago you'd say it's a bit of ridiculous to play with a 4-2-3-1 or with a strikerless formation.

Why you think it's a bit ridiculous notion (I know you don't to want offend nobody) or it's not that rational football thinking? Maybe this manager has a fb with some attributes and he's trying to make him play as a Facchetti-like offensive weapon?

This leads me to

Right, but that is nothing to do with being in a position relative to a spot on a pitch, and certainly not instructing them to. Its relative to the positioning of the other players.

That's exactly what I'm talking about with Sacchi's 4-4-2

They dont instruct, rather they teach them to play like that iirc. Sacchi's Milan 4-4-2 shape was built on that ideal. Although I'm pretty sure its actually between players, and not a rigid position on the pitch. That I agree is very wierd.

I just don't see it myself that you would instruct a player to play within X-number metres in relation to position-Y on the field.

So where do we agree? Is it stupid to have fb to roam from position but is it also stupid to instruct/position players in strictly "absolute" position on the field?

We don't have to take an opinion (or point of view or philosophy) and consider it all its extremes.

When you train/instruct a team you have different approaches, but in summary you use all of them according to your philosophy, your football.

Probably the "X-number metres in relation to position-Y on the field" is most useful when you defend, because it's a very rigid (if you want, limited) approach to instruct the players. But with this space-only approach you can easy choose how to occupy the field, and this is what you actually do when you choose your shape formation so EVERYONE use this approach in the end.

When you're on the pitch with your players you have two phases to manage, the off-the-ball and on-the-ball. The off-the-ball can at least be managed on his basics with this space/zone approach, but the step forward in managing is instructing the players to act according to ball and opposition. It's all about that, if the ball is on the left you want your right players to be in some position. Of course this position is poisoned/influenced by the opposition movements. I'll need to write a lot more about this but you'll understand better when stepping to the other side, the on-the-ball phase.

Example in the on-the-ball phase. Suppose you want your right winger with the ball to cut inside. Why you want it? Because he can shoot from outside. Yes. If he can't, he can pass back to a midfielder. Yes. Is it all? No. With this movement he takes the opposite fb on him, creating space on the right side. If you have a fb instructing to attack in this situation (pay attention at this word it's fundamental) you have an overlap and a 2 vs 1 situation with space exploiting for a goal opportunity.

Well, all theory, you don't know exactly how your opposition is instructed to react in this situation.

They can behave with a more supportive defensive strategy (a midfielder in covering the space, or man marking the fb when he comes up), they may actually want to make an advantage of this situation: we make the fb participate in the offensive phase. The winger is taken by a midfielder if he cuts, the fb faces the fb, and we have our side midfielder/winger and/or striker moving immediately on the empty side to quickly exploit the space when we get the ball. And it's a chain because according to our counter attack and the opposition "counter defense" we may/may not have space for our midfielders forward movess (on the center or on the opposite right!).

We steal the ball, exploit the left, defense needs to counter react and shift to his right...space on the center? space on the right with a cross?

You think of a situation, a winger cutting on the inside with the ball, and you approach it in some way. When he cuts you want to be your right midfielder to participate on the defense on the other side or not, it can change a lot of thing, that's why positioning your players is important. But of course it's not everything.

When your trequartista has the ball you want your players to assist it in some way and you may want to have them in some specific position because of how you read the match and the opposition.

When the opposition trequartista has the ball you want your players to be in some position to easily have a first defensive read, then according to opposition shape and movement, and how and where the ball is moved, you want them to roam or not.

If the trequartista is at 30 meters I may want to be man marked or not, if the opposition deep lying playmaker has or doesn't have the ball I may want to have him man marked or not. And what about when he moves to the side and leaves the center position?

It's a lot complicated to explain how and when you instruct your team in few lines. And how many SITUATION you need to imagine and take care of. But if I want my Mohammed Sissoko to be generally 10/15/20 meters circa ahead of my defenders, well, don't tell me it's not that important when that winger cuts inside

[thisana]

I have tried a few games on the beta and have a question. How can i set particular player to be my playmaker? Thanks for the answer..

[RTHerringbone]

I have tried a few games on the beta and have a question. How can i set particular player to be my playmaker? Thanks for the answer..

Any playmaker Role chosen automatically becomes your playmaker.

If you select more than one playmaker, the focus of passes towards them will be evenly split.

[Fond Foat]

It has been mentioned a few times that rational football thinking is needed.

With that in mind, who instructs their fullbacks to roam from their position? It's a bit of a ridiculous notion. Yes tell them to get forward, in some cases, (David Santon at Newcastle perhaps), cut inside. But I just can't imagine why you would want a fullback to roam?

This is my only concern. There are a lot of restrictions on what shouts you can use, and then it is suggested that you must follow football logic. I can see users feeling that they are being creatively hamstrung.

Take the roaming shout for wingbacks as an example. If I had three center backs, and no defensive midfielders, I may like to see how the wingbacks look if they roam. It may end up being fruitless and not work out, but why can't I at least see this and make the decision myself.

I am enjoying the system and hope people see the potential in it.

[robsfc]

Can wingers be instructed to cut inside?

Cheers

[Fond Foat]

A Winger can't be given the shout to cut inside. A wide midfielder can.

[Da_Funk]

Any playmaker Role chosen automatically becomes your playmaker.

If you select more than one playmaker, the focus of passes towards them will be evenly split.

So I can have 3 playmakers on the pitch right? Deep Lying + 2 Advanced for example? Other roles like Regista/Trequartista are in too?

A Winger can't be given the shout to cut inside. A wide midfielder can.

Can wingers be instructed to cut inside?

Something sounds wrong. I mean, in terms of football a winger plays from the midfield and up.

Players like Robben and Di Maria recently are iconic in this term but have a relative position that is probably more similar of a forward (especially the dutch), here the definition of Inside Forward for example.

But you can't say that for example that Nedved wasn't a winger. In FM you'd say he's a wide midfielder, like Beckham, but still the different kind of play of these players doesn't make one of them not a winger. Or a wide midfielder.

Ribery? A winger? A wide-midfielder? An inside-forward?

I don't know what you mean, but to me when I refer to someone as winger I mean someone who, in a tactic blackboard, can be put on a LMF and LAMF position.

If here we're saying that a winger can't be given to cut inside there's something wrong. Of course probably if we refer to FM roles it's better to type Winger and not winger?

[themadsheep2001]

So I can have 3 playmakers on the pitch right? Deep Lying + 2 Advanced for example? Other roles like Regista/Trequartista are in too?

Something sounds wrong. I mean, in terms of football a winger plays from the midfield and up.

Players like Robben and Di Maria recently are iconic in this term but have a relative position that is probably more similar of a forward (especially the dutch), here the definition of Inside Forward for example.

But you can't say that for example that Nedved wasn't a winger. In FM you'd say he's a wide midfielder, like Beckham, but still the different kind of play of these players doesn't make one of them not a winger. Or a wide midfielder.

Ribery? A winger? A wide-midfielder? An inside-forward?

I don't know what you mean, but to me when I refer to someone as winger I mean someone who, in a tactic blackboard, can be put on a LMF and LAMF position.

If here we're saying that a winger can't be given to cut inside there's something wrong. Of course probably if we refer to FM roles it's better to type Winger and not winger?

Don't get role and position confused here. Valencia, Ribery, Ronaldo play the same high advanced position. One is a winger, one is more of a playmaker, and one is undoubtedly an inside forward.

[Da_Funk]

I just pointed out that with the terms "winger" you can get confused.

I can mean winger for someone who simply plays offensively starting from the sideline, while in FM it's a specific role that can't cut in.

If I say that Robben is a winger I'm not wrong.

[MilitoFan]

hope this is the right thread

How would you play Totti this year: False 9 or Trequartista?

I play him as lone striker in Roma's 433 with Gervinho/Florenzi and Cerci/Ljaic/Marquinho on the flanks as inside forward

[RTHerringbone]

hope this is the right thread

How would you play Totti this year: False 9 or Trequartista?

I play him as lone striker in Roma's 433 with Gervinho/Florenzi and Cerci/Ljaic/Marquinho on the flanks as inside forward

It's entirely up to you, but Totti for me is the embodiment of a Trequartista.

[miguelalves]

Not sure if this has been debated but...

Although I can recognize the advantages of the new tactical system, there is also some disadvantages ... well, whatever the system, all would have goods and bads. But there are some aspects that I would like to be elucidated. For an example:

why is not possible to instruct players not to cross ? why is not possible a FB, supporting, to cross 3/4 of the pitch ? What's the logic within these two examples ????

[RTHerringbone]

why is not possible to instruct players not to cross ? why is not possible a FB, supporting, to cross 3/4 of the pitch ? What's the logic within these two examples ????

It's pretty simple, logical stuff.

Why would you want a Winger (if this is your example) not to cross? A Winger, by definition, crosses. If you don't want him to cross, you don't want a Winger.

In the Full Back example, is this true even if you ask him to "Get Further Forward"? WHat about with an Attack Duty?

If neither of these work, is it actually a Full Back you really want? Can a Wing Back be tailored to be more defensively assured?

[miguelalves]

It's pretty simple, logical stuff.

Why would you want a Winger (if this is your example) not to cross? A Winger, by definition, crosses. If you don't want him to cross, you don't want a Winger.

In the Full Back example, is this true even if you ask him to "Get Further Forward"? WHat about with an Attack Duty?

If neither of these work, is it actually a Full Back you really want? Can a Wing Back be tailored to be more defensively assured?

Well, I don't use a wingers, I use Inside Forwards and it doesn't seem logical to have an IF crossing when it's supposed to cut inside and shoot or make a pass.

As for FB's, my bad :-)

[RTHerringbone]

Well, I don't use a wingers, I use Inside Forwards and it doesn't seem logical to have an IF crossing when it's supposed to cut inside and shoot or make a pass.

As for FB's, my bad :-)

I think the behaviour of IFs is something that is being investigated.

They are behaving like wingers (crossing) because their positioning is a bit off.

[miguelalves]

I think the behaviour of IFs is something that is being investigated.

They are behaving like wingers (crossing) because their positioning is a bit off.

Oh, that's nice to know.

Shouldn't the option to cut inside be available? It's grey and it says is unavailable for the position.

[wwfan]

Oh, that's nice to know.

Shouldn't the option to cut inside be available? It's grey and it says is unavailable for the position.

Cut-inside will be hard-coded "on" for IFs, as it is an inherent part of the role.

[legaldinho]

Jesus christ, I'm considering withdrawing my pre-order. I can't even beat Waregem over two legs. It seems like keepers are having wonderful games and strikers bad ones.. but the ratings don't reflect that. Really, it's a bad idea to have a beta this broken.

[wwfan]

Jesus christ, I'm considering withdrawing my pre-order. I can't even beat Waregem over two legs. It seems like keepers are having wonderful games and strikers bad ones.. but the ratings don't reflect that. Really, it's a bad idea to have a beta this broken.

Losing does not equal broken. If you are losing to poor teams, it is far more likely to be something you are doing than anything related to the ME. Rather than moan about withdrawing your pre-order, start a thread explaining your tactical ideas so we can help. That's what this forum is for after all.

[miguelalves]

Jesus christ, I'm considering withdrawing my pre-order. I can't even beat Waregem over two legs. It seems like keepers are having wonderful games and strikers bad ones.. but the ratings don't reflect that. Really, it's a bad idea to have a beta this broken.

The problem isn't with the game, but for sure is with your instructions.

[legaldinho]

Losing does not equal broken. If you are losing to poor teams, it is far more likely to be something you are doing than anything related to the ME. Rather than moan about withdrawing your pre-order, start a thread explaining your tactical ideas so we can help. That's what this forum is for after all.

I've heard it all before, it's because of me, why don't I post more detail - but then there are three patches that fix the thing in the problems, and then we're okay. Not taking a pop at you personally - I love your posts, cleons' lam's etc. I've learnt a lot about tactics thanks to all your posts. I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm watching full match mate. 36 shots, 17 off target, 19 on, 6 clear cut chances, 1 scored. They get 1 ccc (frankly I thought they had three), they score. My defenders can't anticipate long balls - they go in totally the wrong direction. They have hogh ant ratings, one and all. Kyle Walker gets skinned every time by folks with much less pace than he does. And most of all, all my shots are saved by a keeper who gets a 6.6 rating at the end.

Broken.

[wwfan]

It has issues, but it really isn't broken. I can only help if you are willing to help yourself.