*Official* Football Manager 2013 Constructive non-ME Feedback Thread

[milnerpoint]

I did had my Anchor man only pressing in the own half. I've change that to whole pitch, same as the 2 midfielders, and notice that he is a little bit push up... but still too deep.

How deep does your defense sit in the first place? I've found in this one you can be a bit ambitious with how high you keep your defense, changing that for me made a big difference.

[StevoWanderer]

King of Pilot - "You can probably do something to change this but as you said - you do not want to change formation or push your line further up which is understandable, your midfielders should close down oppsition in these areas no matter what kind of formation you use. I have same issues, for example i set my hardworking DM to close down and tight mark opp midfielder yet this rarely happens. Hope this will be fixed. "

It could be that ur dm is tightly marking the more advanced players and not the opposition midfield? I'd say that ur telling ur dm 2 contradicting things there. Telling him to press but also mark. If you press someone they have the ball. If you mark someone they don't... so he won't press the ball whilst marking someone who doesn't?

[TitouCythe]

To be honest i think this is one of the issues with the ME, the midfield drop a bit too deep when defending, which can leave space open in front of your box. Have you tried pushing your anchor man forward into the central mid, but set him as a ball winner with defend duty? I play a similar formation to you, but with the central mid as an advanced playmaker just behind the striker, with two inside forwards wide of him, but i play with two high energy players in the two central mid roles, both ball winners, one on defend and one support. It could be that the anchor man setting has him on low pressing, which means he drops really deep and brings your other two central guys back with him as they try and keep the midfield line.

You could also try more opposition instuctions, make sure your closing down their midfield all the time, even man mark the most dangerous ones.

When the ball is in the last third, whatever OI/defensive midfielder position is, it is quite over. Unless he's on zonal marking.

On zonal marking, players (and it is logical) keep their position and press the opponent. Setting the team on zonal marking avoids handball type phases (at the cost of a less inspired attacking animation, it seems)

[Keyzer Soze]

How deep does your defense sit in the first place? I've found in this one you can be a bit ambitious with how high you keep your defense, changing that for me made a big difference.

My defensive line, it's set on "Normal" (2 nods down from Push Up).

I just think that my d-line should stay, in that video from post #2490) a little bit higher, with the anchor man on the edge of the box. Instead i have all in my 6 yard box.

[Keyzer Soze]

When the ball is in the last third, whatever OI/defensive midfielder position is, it is quite over. Unless he's on zonal marking.

On zonal marking, players (and it is logical) keep their position and press the opponent. Setting the team on zonal marking avoids handball type phases (at the cost of a less inspired attacking animation, it seems)

I have my team playing zonal marking... and still this happens.

[BiggusD]

I did had my Anchor man only pressing in the own half. I've change that to whole pitch, same as the 2 midfielders, and notice that he is a little bit push up... but still too deep.

I have the defensive line at click 14 (1 click from Push Up) and the same problem sometimes occur with me, but I have managed to fix the problem - maxing out Defensive Line. Of course, this is highly risky, but with some tweaking of the central defenders and a defensive anchor, it isn't too bad defensively. However, the attack is strangely suffering, because they run into the offside line way too early and then just stand there.

So as milnerpoint said - it is just how the ME is at the moment; the midfielders drop too low and thus 4-5-1 variants with a deep defensive line become attacking powerhouses since they automatically gain incredible possession without loss of counter-attacking power (when it is needed). I think the many 3-5-2 variants with wing-backs are becoming popular because the depth of the midfield trio depends on where there are teammates on both their flanks. If in FRL position, all three drop in between the defenders. In AMRL position the anchor drops down there while the two others run halfway back and forth between the opponent standing around passing to each other in the middle of our half, in MRL positions they push up to roughly where they are (hence why 451 is so good), and in WBLR positions they are right there in-between the opponents going into challenges. DRL-only makes the trio drop down in-between the defenders again.

That is, until the team is perfectly gelled, the tactical familiarity is at 100% and the players think you are God's gift to football. Then they actually do roughly what they are told.

[Kingofpilot]

King of Pilot - "You can probably do something to change this but as you said - you do not want to change formation or push your line further up which is understandable, your midfielders should close down oppsition in these areas no matter what kind of formation you use. I have same issues, for example i set my hardworking DM to close down and tight mark opp midfielder yet this rarely happens. Hope this will be fixed. "

It could be that ur dm is tightly marking the more advanced players and not the opposition midfield? I'd say that ur telling ur dm 2 contradicting things there. Telling him to press but also mark. If you press someone they have the ball. If you mark someone they don't... so he won't press the ball whilst marking someone who doesn't?

No, I tried everything and it is always the same. For example i set oppo. holding CM to be closed down always and he is in acres of space and my midfielders do not go after him when he´s on the ball. So I tried to tell my DM to mark him tightly so he doesn´t receive the ball so often but no change. I often have oppo player to be closed down and my assistant tells me we should close him down.

[thefonz75]

My 10 year old PC coudnt play the current FM, never mind any new FIFA or PES game, thats a crazy statement to make. My current 2 year old laptop couldnt play the newest FIFA.

Your 10 year old PC could play a ps2 era game like pes 5.

Todays graphics are more like this - http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=EsztT0frCi4&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEsztT0frCi4

[StevoWanderer]

No, I tried everything and it is always the same. For example i set oppo. holding CM to be closed down always and he is in acres of space and my midfielders do not go after him when he´s on the ball. So I tried to tell my DM to mark him tightly so he doesn´t receive the ball so often but no change. I often have oppo player to be closed down and my assistant tells me we should close him down.

Hmmm. Strange one although I think you'll find it hard to effectively man mark the opp's holding mid with urs because they will very rarely get close on the pitch. I'm really not sure then. It seems to work fine for me I play 4 (2 fbs and 2cbs)-1(AncMan)-2 (dlp sup and adv play attack)-2 (2 wingers)-1 (advanced forward as lone striker). I dominate most games with that. And I use the shout hassle opponents (have you tried this) and max pressing and my players always press and hassle the opposition.

[milnerpoint]

That is, until the team is perfectly gelled, the tactical familiarity is at 100% and the players think you are God's gift to football. Then they actually do roughly what they are told.

I think thats a big thing this year. Until your team is very competent in the new tactic strange things can happen, but when you have them settled you see a lot more of your instructions making a difference.

Keyzer, have you noticed any difference when you play teams with different formations, i found i struggled most against a team that would play 3 across the middle, especially if they had a high playmaker, i actually found getting one of my centre backs to look after him left the defensive ball winner more in the middle of the pitch where you want him.

[Stevedox]

I'm losing £7,000,000 PM every month even though i've got no real outgoings and have my wage budget well under the limit, almost 40% under and it seems like it is all down to tax.

Anyone else finding the taxation in the game excessive?

[Steboyuk]

Found some more - players 'heading it to safety' for no reason under zero pressure. I've seen players head it backwards for out for an opposition corner when under no pressure at all. Also just witnessed my centre back just stand and watch as a player ran through to score. :/

Also still cannot for the life of me fathom how to make my wingers get to byline and try a cross - my winger Dominic Rowe has PPM's to 'run with the ball often'. I have him set as a winger (A), run with ball set to often, cross ball set to often, through balls mixed and long shots rarely - all he does is either shoots from an impossible angle (successfully, he's my top scorer) or just stand still and pass backwards. Impossible.

[Kingofpilot]

Hmmm. Strange one although I think you'll find it hard to effectively man mark the opp's holding mid with urs because they will very rarely get close on the pitch. I'm really not sure then. It seems to work fine for me I play 4 (2 fbs and 2cbs)-1(AncMan)-2 (dlp sup and adv play attack)-2 (2 wingers)-1 (advanced forward as lone striker). I dominate most games with that. And I use the shout hassle opponents (have you tried this) and max pressing and my players always press and hassle the opposition.

Strange it is but anyway, thanks for your advice.

[Shrewnaldo]

I'm really disappointed that the scout reports / coach reports now provide less information on a player's personality.

I was previously told that scouting for a longer period would bring more detail but it doesn't. Now, we only get the personality description (balanced / professional / ambitious / etc) whereas we would previously get a comparison between the player and your squad, e.g. your squad is of an ambitious nature and x player would fit in well.

Other than that, the things that I like and don't like have been well covered.

I haven't seen a response to this despite asking the question several times. As it continues to be a major issue for me then I'd like to ask some questions:

1. Was this a deliberate change on SI's part? i.e. was the amount of personality information available to gamers deliberately reduced?

2. If not, is this something which will be covered by a patch?

3. If so, why?!

4. Is there somewhere else that I can't see which tells me more about a player's personality attributes?

[thefonz75]

You really are overestimating the power of many FM players' machines.

FM is a strange game in that many of its players often aren't gamers, with FM regularly being the only game installed on their computers/laptops.

Spending vast sums of money on an out-sourced graphics engine which will add nothing to the game's tactics, management or match engine, while cutting out a sizable fraction of your username is a crazy idea.

Do you think there are major problems with the AI tactical code?

Everyone who plays games by definition is a gamer.

[Ackter]

Just to point out, the PES/FIFA engine (even the most recent) is nowhere near specific/detailed enough to handle the FM match engine. It just couldn't deal with it.

There's a (very good) reason the match display uses simpler graphics.

[Keyzer Soze]

Keyzer, have you noticed any difference when you play teams with different formations, i found i struggled most against a team that would play 3 across the middle, especially if they had a high playmaker, i actually found getting one of my centre backs to look after him left the defensive ball winner more in the middle of the pitch where you want him.

i'm managing in Portugal, and almost every team plays in a 451 formation.

i'm gonna wait a few more games, untill the tactic is 100% gelled. Perhaps then, the defense plays a little bit better.

[M4G1C1977]

Sorry if it has been asked before (probably numerous times), but I really need clarification on my thread

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/327879-1st-Team-Coaches-Youth-Team-Coaches

I think the way the Youth Team Coaching for "Bigger Teams" is great but for "Lower League Teams" it is a potential game spoiler. I will no longer concentrate on Youth if this is the case, leading to the question, why bother with Lower League Management?

Would really appreciate any feedback on this from the Mods or a SI representative.

Thank you.

[hamilton81]

This is a common complaint, mostly from people who look at the stats but then don't actually look any deeper to find out why it's happening.

In short: It's happening because the AI team is shutting your team out so effectively that your players' attacking options are frequently limited, which results in the "hit and hope" tactics you're describing.

I'd suggest visiting the tactics forum as there's plenty of advice in there to deal with this sort of situation.

Thanks for lumping me in with people who look at the stats but then don't actually look any deeper to find out why it's happening.

I watch the games.

[davidallenxyz]

You really are overestimating the power of many FM players' machines.

FM is a strange game in that many of its players often aren't gamers, with FM regularly being the only game installed on their computers/laptops.

Spending vast sums of money on an out-sourced graphics engine which will add nothing to the game's tactics, management or match engine, while cutting out a sizable fraction of your username is a crazy idea.

I am that player. And it seems a waste to have a fat graphics engine slowing down the game's core function of crunching numbers and displaying them.

[thefonz75]

I am that player. And it seems a waste to have a fat graphics engine slowing down the game's core function of crunching numbers and displaying them.

If only the universe were made purely of numbers...

Who needs that atom display engine lol?

[Kriss]

Might be a good time to point out that the current ME problems causing most angst aren't even graphics related, they're player behaviour problems which is a completely different area and would look just as bad if you had 4D graphics running on a NASA computer.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Just to point out, the PES/FIFA engine (even the most recent) is nowhere near specific/detailed enough to handle the FM match engine. It just couldn't deal with it.

There's a (very good) reason the match display uses simpler graphics.

This is utter nonsense. The PES and Fifa engines have better physics and animations that our one. You're having a laugh if you expect anyone to believe that either of those engines would not do a better job of graphically representing SI's ME than the one that we have.

[Ackter]

Thanks for lumping me in with people who look at the stats but then don't actually look any deeper to find out why it's happening.

I watch the games.

No worries. Bet I'm right, though.

[davidallenxyz]

Might be a good time to point out that the current ME problems causing most angst aren't even graphics related, they're player behaviour problems which is a completely different area and would look just as bad if you had 4D graphics running on a NASA computer.

Yes, but it would be nice if the whole game ran a bit quicker without the need for a "gamer" spec PC. After all, the GUI is only showing numbers and letters.

[aj_ctfc]

I don't know if it has already been mentioned (probably has but can't be bothered to go through every page) but the defensive issues need to be sorted as they are always too slow to react to what is going on and the goalkeepers are useless and i end up conceding too many goals, it certainly wasn't like this last year. Its impossible for any team you start with to adopt your tactics before the start of the new season and therefore can't get off to a good start. I don't like the new interface either especially on matchdays. I prefered having the overview on a separate page and clicking on pitch to see the highlights. A patch needs sorting to sort out the defensive issues

[Ackter]

This is utter nonsense. The PES and Fifa engines have better physics and animations that our one. You're having a laugh if you expect anyone to believe that either of those engines would not do a better job of graphically representing SI's ME than the one that we have.

All that shows is a rather large misunderstanding/underestimating of the FM match engine.

[Spart]

Everyone who plays games by definition is a gamer.

Quit the semantics - many people who play FM do not play any other non-casual games, and therefore do not have "rigs" or robust hardware for high(er) end graphics.

These people are not "gamers" as defined by people who would could gaming as one of their primary recreational activities, or who would have a number of graphically demanding AAA titles or other computer intensive games on their computers.

Do you think there are major problems with the AI tactical code?

Problems? Yes. Major? No.

Will it perfect once these issues are ironed out? Again, no.

The new match engine is, for me, far better than the previous offerings, and I'm sure once PaulC's team release the latest patch many of the things that are annoying me at present, will be dealt with going by his most recent update on the situation.

How would better graphics enhance the game or AI tactical code?

From my experience, FM's Match Engines handle team tactics and AI in a far more sophisticated and complex manner than FIFA or PES' - and that's not a slight against either games.

[claretmatt]

SI are a small studio, so they might not be able to afford the "best technical advice available".

A small studio? Hardly.

Turnover for the year to 31 March 2011 was £8.8m. The company recorded a PROFIT of £2.3m. I am sure they could afford to spend a bit more. But as they are owned by SEGA, I reckon SEGA won't let them. SEGA has revenues of around 396 Billion Japanese Yen, which is approx £3 billion. So SI is a tiny tiny part of SEGA. Not even 1%. I bet SEGA wonder who SI are when they get in contact.

However £8 million revenue and £2 million profit is hardly a small studio.

£5m comes from the UK

£3.3m from Europe

£390,000 from Rest of the world.

The wages for the year comes to £2.8 million. Divided by 66 staff, each staff member on average is on around £40k annum. I am sure they could afford to take on a few more people.

But why would they? They have a £8 million pound cash cow every year. And every year we buy the game, no matter how much they muck it up. They know we will buy it.

** Please note, all data taken from companies house ***********

[treble_yell_:-)]

All that shows is a rather large misunderstanding/underestimating of the FM match engine.

Explain how. If those 2 graphics engines have smoother animations, better ball physics etc , how can it possibly not do a better job than the one we have now at displaying what's going on with the ME.

It's not like SI created this engine from scratch to do the best job of representing the ME , it's licensed from some football game that came of in the early 00's

Your seriously trying to tell me if the ME says to the 3d engine to graphically represent someone like Bale running down the wing to cross the ball to say Adebayor that the current 3d engine would do a better job of displaying that than a modern one ?

The 3d engine is only graphically representing what the ME tell it to , that's the official SI line, so to claim that a modern engine isn't more capable of displaying it that the current one is laughable.

[Spart]

Explain how. If those 2 graphics engines have smoother animations, better ball physics etc , how can it possibly not do a better job than the one we have now at displaying what's going on with the ME.

It's not like SI created this engine from scratch to do the best job of representing the ME , it's licensed from some football game that came of in the early 00's

What's ball physics got to do with the graphic engine?

[thefonz75]

Quit the semantics - many people who play FM do not play any other non-casual games, and therefore do not have "rigs" or robust hardware for high(er) end graphics.

These people are not "gamers" as defined by people who would could gaming as one of their primary recreational activities, or who would have a number of graphically demanding AAA titles or other computer intensive games on their computers.

Problems? Yes. Major? No.

Will it perfect once these issues are ironed out? Again, no.

The new match engine is, for me, far better than the previous offerings, and I'm sure once PaulC's team release the latest patch many of the things that are annoying me at present, will be dealt with going by his most recent update on the situation.

How would better graphics enhance the game or AI tactical code?

From my experience, FM's Match Engines handle team tactics and AI in a far more sophisticated and complex manner than FIFA or PES' - and that's not a slight against either games.

Don't put yourself and other FM players down.

You are definitely gamers.

Even running an 8-10 year old computer you can still expect PES5 quality graphics.

That is the best football graphics and physics engine of all time by the way.

[Ackter]

Those animations are set to work with a very limited engine. The FM match simulation is years in advance of those used in regular footballing games.

It's a damn site easier using a relatively simple-looking graphical engine to represent something complex.

[Spart]

Don't put yourself and other FM players down.

You are definitely gamers.

Even running an 8-10 year old computer you can still expect PES5 quality graphics.

That is the best football graphics and physics engine of all time by the way.

I'd call myself a gamer because I own a big library of games such as Half Life 2 etc. but blokes who play FM to manage their favourite team solely as football fans are not gamers, and often do not have the hardware to play anything more demanding than FM already is - search for the amount of topics featuring people complaining about performance issues with the 3D match engines and databases sizes for example.

"That is the best football graphics and physics engine of all time by the way." - that's your subjective opinion that I disagree with.

Unless you've got some solid evidence to back that up beyond "I preferred it".

Again, what would PES5 standard graphics add to the game or the AI's tactical coding?

[Ackter]

You can't argue that looking prettier would be a good thing.

You can argue whether it's actually worth it, though.

[Spart]

You can't argue that looking prettier would be a good thing.

You can argue whether it's actually worth it, though.

That's kind of what I meant - in gameplay terms, what would better graphics add?

Even the likes of press conferences and media interaction are more vital/need attention before PES-esque visuals.

[thefonz75]

Again, what would PES5 standard graphics add to the game or the AI's tactical coding?

That is easy - a strong sense of realism which is what the game is lacking currently.

As for my assertion about PES 5 have a look at the critic and user reviews - http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/pro-evolution-soccer-5

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I haven't seen a response to this despite asking the question several times. As it continues to be a major issue for me then I'd like to ask some questions:

1. Was this a deliberate change on SI's part? i.e. was the amount of personality information available to gamers deliberately reduced?

2. If not, is this something which will be covered by a patch?

3. If so, why?!

4. Is there somewhere else that I can't see which tells me more about a player's personality attributes?

Although meant for you, this was posted in response to my moan about this:

I see the player personality and the squad personality for comparison on the scout report page.

EDIT : Whoops was actually responding to this comment

"I was previously told that scouting for a longer period would bring more detail but it doesn't. Now, we only get the personality description (balanced / professional / ambitious / etc) whereas we would previously get a comparison between the player and your squad, e.g. your squad is of an ambitious nature and x player would fit in well."

???

[Spart]

That is easy - a strong sense of realism which is what the game is lacking currently.

As for my assertion about PES 5 have a look at the critic and user reviews - http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/pro-evolution-soccer-5

Great. Reviews from 2005 when Football Manager 2013 and it's Match Engine hadn't been released.

Until you can show me comparative evidence of how PES5 is a better simulation of football than FM2013 then it's a baseless claim.

And FM has never struggled for immersion. It's ability to dominate free time and create a parallel life for its players has always been driven by its aim for relative realism through its mechanics. It'd be a lesser game if visuals were instead relied upon to give this effect.

[Ackter]

I'd just like to say that the engines from Football games almost entirely fail to represent a real game of football. They're just not designed to do so and never have been.

Oh sure, they're great for playing football with, but they'd be horrendous for a management sim.

[thefonz75]

That's what you took out of my argument? The point is it's a PC/Mac game, not a console game - people have different spec machines and a minority have high-end graphic capable computers. SI know this.

Why would they make a game that alienates a mass of it's customer base?

Yes - they are piddly graphics - that's what I think of FIFA and PES as a graphical game - it's all eye-candy and no substance. Football Manager is a management game - not a graphical game.

Name them.

You've no idea what is involved in this - and you're counting on spurious votes that you don't actually have - basically you can't make up market research and say "do it" based on no facts - which is exactly what you have.

Paradigm shifts are scientific revolutions, not technological...

How do you know they don't already use a dedicated coding house for graphics? What does that even mean anyway? Elaborate on what you think happens between coding and graphics?

I really don't think you know how their operations work - so commenting on them and making suggestions based on no facts are completely moot points.

Go get a 10 year old PC and play FIFA 13 on it - good luck.

The irony of you telling me I'm being dogmatic... it really is laughable. You're the one making assumptions about their workflow and operations and you have no idea whether they outsource this stuff or hire professionals from outside to come in and work on things - you have no idea about their SOP or their workflow.

I'm not supporting whatever SI do - I'm just letting you know that improving the 3D graphics is the last thing a majority of people (at least on the forums) have said over the last few years that I've been here.

People here on the forums at least are a lot more interested in getting the Football MAnagement side of the game better - not adding the graphics that Fifa and PES implement.

And again - it would alienate a large user base because they wouldn't be able to handle the graphics - heck even the minimal graphics in the 3D match is too much for a lot of people who post here on the forums.

I reckon if you asked Football Manager players if they would prefer an engine like PES 5 or the current engine there would be a pretty clear answer. Progress is inevitable. At the moment it is painfully slow with this franchise though.

Taken from the online free dictionary - "Paradigm - 3. A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline." In the case of the SI community it has been a painful transition to 2d and now 3d for them. But with this year's troubles I think a real shift in perspective is now required i.e. away from imagining the game is real to actually expecting it to be real! As console gamers have expected for many years. As one of the better PES players I can assure you that if you were to get a more realistic and graphically enhanced match engine it would enhance your enjoyment of the FM series no end.

On the balance of probabilities it seems very unlikely that SI use a 3rd party graphics developer. Pretty much all they do is in house - you can tell by the way they operate in such a close knit way. I doubt very much that this will be disputed by SI. They make the game internally and patch the deep code internally.

Graphics coding is done I suggest by Paul Collyer and a small team at SI - how exactly they code I don't know as I'm not a programmer but all the evidence points that way.

While you are making some good points I think the broad thrust of my argument is correct and sooner or later what I suggest will have to happen.

[x42bn6]

A small studio? Hardly.

Turnover for the year to 31 March 2011 was £8.8m. The company recorded a PROFIT of £2.3m. I am sure they could afford to spend a bit more. But as they are owned by SEGA, I reckon SEGA won't let them. SEGA has revenues of around 396 Billion Japanese Yen, which is approx £3 billion. So SI is a tiny tiny part of SEGA. Not even 1%. I bet SEGA wonder who SI are when they get in contact.

However £8 million revenue and £2 million profit is hardly a small studio.

£5m comes from the UK

£3.3m from Europe

£390,000 from Rest of the world.

The wages for the year comes to £2.8 million. Divided by 66 staff, each staff member on average is on around £40k annum. I am sure they could afford to take on a few more people.

But why would they? They have a £8 million pound cash cow every year. And every year we buy the game, no matter how much they muck it up. They know we will buy it.

** Please note, all data taken from companies house ***********

It's a lot more than hiring just a few extra people, though - it's hiring effectively an entire team who are purely focussed on things like graphics, collision detection and physics, separate from the underlying "engine". Just like Model-View-Controller suggests. It could involve the adoption of a game engine for these things (i.e. nVidia Physx), including support costs, too.

Because this "team" is purely focussed on these areas and has experience in these areas, they will likely yield better results. And if the software is well-designed, then the separation is easy and integration testing will yield minimal bugs.

[Spart]

I reckon if you asked Football Manager players if they would prefer an engine like PES 5 or the current engine there would be a pretty clear answer. Progress is inevitable. At the moment it is painfully slow with this franchise though.

Taken from the online free dictionary - "Paradigm - 3. A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline." In the case of the SI community it has been a painful transition to 2d and now 3d for them. But with this year's troubles I think a real shift in perspective is now required i.e. away from imagining the game is real to actually expecting it to be real! As console gamers have expected for many years. As one of the better PES players I can assure you that if you were to get a more realistic and graphically enhanced match engine it would enhance your enjoyment of the FM series no end.

On the balance of probabilities it seems very unlikely that SI use a 3rd party graphics developer. Pretty much all they do is in house - you can tell by the way they operate in such a close knit way. I doubt very much that this will be disputed by SI. They make the game internally and patch the deep code internally.

Graphics coding is done I suggest by Paul Collyer and a small team at SI - how exactly they code I don't know as I'm not a programmer but all the evidence points that way.

While you are making some good points I think the broad thrust of my argument is correct and sooner or later what I suggest will have to happen.

Proof PES5 is a better simulation of a football match than FM2013 or your argument has no thrust, no evidence and no point.

[Shrewnaldo]

Although meant for you, this was posted in response to my moan about this:

???

Thanks I didn't see that previously.

You can compare using the two words or phrases, i.e. player is balanced squad is ambitious, but no longer get the additional text which provides extra information.

E.g. you would previously get:

"Shrew Naldo is an ambitious player.

Your squad is of a professional nature and Shrew Naldo would have to do some adapting to fit in."

This not only let's you know that the player's personality attributes fall within the bracket for ambitious, it also gives you extra clues as to attributes which aren't detailed in his personality description, in this case his professionalism attribute.

This is absolutely key for me because I develop a lot of youth players and use tutoring heavily. I can no longer do this as effectively on FM13 because I only get the one word / phrase description of the player's personality.

Hope that's clear, difficult to lay out. I may start a separate thread if there isn't a response as I feel it's a key issue with the current interface.

[thefonz75]

I'd just like to say that the engines from Football games almost entirely fail to represent a real game of football. They're just not designed to do so and never have been.

Oh sure, they're great for playing football with, but they'd be horrendous for a management sim.

Of course thay are. There are numerous management modes in FIFA and PES and FIFA manager uses the FIFA engine.

There shouldn't be an accepted notion that high quality graphics only appear in non strategy games.

[Spart]

Of course thay are. There are numerous management modes in FIFA and PES and FIFA manager uses the FIFA engine.

...which are far inferior, hence why FM is the market leader. Even those players that do have problems with the series pretty much lump it and play anyway due to lack of a credible alternative.

There shouldn't be an accepted notion that high quality graphics only appear in non strategy games.

There shouldn't be an accepted notion that high quality graphics should be a priority, or necessary.

FM was great before 3D and the old CM series was fantastic before the 2D match engine. If you think FIFA/PES management modes are anywhere near comparable, and graphics mean that much to you, then those games may be more suitable to you.

[thefonz75]

Proof PES5 is a better simulation of a football match than FM2013 or your argument has no thrust, no evidence and no point.

The proof is in the pudding as they say.

So um...eat this...

(No offence intended)

[Kriss]

A significant number of us don't need or want the visual graphics to look pretty, we just want them to indicate whether or not our players are doing what they should be so quality isn't a priority.

Personally I regard the visual ME as screen candy, my management is based on stats.

[Spart]

The proof is in the pudding as they say.

So um...eat this...

(No offence intended)

Straight off the bat, the defending at 1:54 is laughable and clearly player-centric since the engine is focused on giving the person at the controls the best experience rather than generating a realistic match of 11 v 11.

Not that I'm saying FM does this perfectly either mind, but I don't see how turning the game into a showcase for ball chasing defenders with no positional sense (ala PES) makes for a better game?

[Spart]

The proof is in the pudding as they say.

So um...eat this...

(No offence intended)

Just to add to my point, much of the play in that video looks eerily similar to the dodgy marking and covering that was such a big source of complaint in this year's BETA ME.