The 'the game cheats, 'its your tactics' or 'its a bit of both poll'

[Antonin]

Well, I'm one of those who believes the game does cheat. I've seen enough analyses and number crunching right here in this forum by people who play the game a great deal to convince me that this is so.

Perhaps the poll results are what they are [i.e., showing those who believe FM cheats to be in the minority] because many of those who have doubts about the AI just don't come here much anymore, because they just get shouted down.

I'm sorry to say that this is a very unfriendly place for people who have questions about the AI and want to try to have more fun with the game. It gets very tiresome to be told time and again, even after you have downloaded tactic after tactic from the Tactics forum, only to still fail (!), that "it's not the game it's you and your tactics" and "if you want an easy game play Chelsea."

[kiwityke]

I'm sorry to say that this is a very unfriendly place for people who have questions about the AI and want to try to have more fun with the game. It gets very tiresome to be told time and again, even after you have downloaded tactic after tactic from the Tactics forum, only to still fail (!), that "it's not the game it's you and your tactics" and "if you want an easy game play Chelsea."

Sadly you are right here anyone who even mentions the game cheats (in any form) is instantly put down by the 'gurus', who I have yet to see actually upload any of these all conquering tactics for others to verify the points made. All they do is give vague advice, which in my experience never works.

The big issue is not if the AI cheats or not. The issue is that we THINK it cheats. This is the actual problem.

This is the real point here over half, and in fact nearly 60% of all the people who have responded to this poll believe the game cheats (in some form), this is obviously a huge problem that SI need to look at seriously.

what would be the point of SI making the game cheat? It's ridiculous and makes a mockery of an excellent simulation.

The reason SI may have made the game 'cheat' is to make it more of a challenge and this is linked to the point made below. Ever since I have played Champ, or FM a human has been able to break the match engine and win, and win practically all the time, dominating every match and it is this reason and this reason only I think the game cheats.

my tactics force the game into cheating....ha

I think this is a valid point as most of the people who complain are playing what I would call 'exploit tactics' ie they exploit the cr*pness of the match engine to dominate games. In response the AI cheats to win.

[wwfan]

First off, I don't think any of the current 'gurus' (how I hate that word) have ever claimed to possess an all conquering tactic. They write long explanations of how to design a tactic and every one of them requires you to mould their basic advice around the players you have. The three main gurus all detail different approaches but all require you to react to in match situations for you to over-achieve. That they appreciate the game is because they appreciate how much it has involved since FM06 and don't try to design all conquering tactics any more.

Why do you think snappy downloads like Diablo and ScramJet have been replaced by theoretical threads explaining how to do things from a general perspective. Simply because those who really excel don't use a single tactic system any more and change things to fit the players they have. As FM develops this type of playing mentality will become more and more important and one-tactic solutions more and more difficult to develop.

The reason SI may have made the game 'cheat' is to make it more of a challenge and this is linked to the point made below. Ever since I have played Champ, or FM a human has been able to break the match engine and win, and win practically all the time, dominating every match and it is this reason and this reason only I think the game cheats.

I think you'll find that everybody working on the engine, coders and testers alike, want that scenario to stop. That nobody has beaten the engine with a one flavour tactic is actually a sign of the engines sophistication, not weakness. There are faults in the ME that can skew match stats and a large number of people migrate to tactics that take advantage of that and then complain of cheating when they lose. It is not cheating, just a problem with how the engine is processing the match, because the user tactic can keep possession easily without creating any really good chances. I have yet to see any pkm in which the 'unmissable' chances were anywhere near as good as the complainer stated, and I have watched a lot.

[Mr Sandman]

no cheating, read wolfsong's (or whatever his name is) team talk guide

providing you have a decent tactic, with the right team talk you will win, without it you won't. i have complete faith in this version, it is very good

[Mr Sandman]

p.s i find it sometimes realistic to dominate but lose a game 1-0, for example I instill TOO MUCH confidence into my side that they dominate the game but take shooting too easy thinking they will win and suddenly the lesser opposition "carpe diem".

Overall i find the people who moan about such situations those with short attention spans who don't know how to 'work' the game

[Themistofelis]

no cheating, read wolfsong's (or whatever his name is) team talk guide

providing you have a decent tactic, with the right team talk you will win, without it you won't. i have complete faith in this version, it is very good

Why do i need a decent tactic against managers with CA 50? any tactic should beat them

Also why do i need to make team talks ? do AI managers use team talks that affect their team as much as mine?

And tell me you have not see a defender with speed 12 running faster than your speed 19 striker.

After you just started the game take a look on 2nd German division and there is already a player WNT by Roma , geene scout says CA 115 PA170.. a bargain , well without the 3rd party software i would have to scout Germany for 2 months to find him , do you think that i can beat Roma ( from non active legaue...) in signing him ?

Why do i have to sign decent scouts and decent coaches? AI teams develop their players even without any coaches and sign the best players around without even having to scout them.

Make a test , open FMM and do the "position cheat" in any 100% crap player , do not play him at all , if you don't recieve a load of offers for him i will dance naked in a gay bar.

Any adtantage AI has over the player = cheating

[Ched]

Sadly you are right here anyone who even mentions the game cheats (in any form) is instantly put down by the 'gurus', who I have yet to see actually upload any of these all conquering tactics for others to verify the points made. All they do is give vague advice, which in my experience never works.

This is the real point here over half, and in fact nearly 60% of all the people who have responded to this poll believe the game cheats (in some form), this is obviously a huge problem that SI need to look at seriously.

The reason SI may have made the game 'cheat' is to make it more of a challenge and this is linked to the point made below. Ever since I have played Champ, or FM a human has been able to break the match engine and win, and win practically all the time, dominating every match and it is this reason and this reason only I think the game cheats.

I think this is a valid point as most of the people who complain are playing what I would call 'exploit tactics' ie they exploit the cr*pness of the match engine to dominate games. In response the AI cheats to win.

1/ The general pattern of threads involving cheating go:

OP "The game cheats"

Someone who knows a little more than the OP "No it doesn't"

OP "you're a fanboy then"

etc etc etc

To say that anyone who accuses the game of cheating gets shouted down or abused is nonsense, I personally, have been repeatedly abused by several people claiming the game cheats because i've had the audacity to disagree with them.

As to "guru" tactics - as wwfan states, they require a large amount of effort on your part - it is no longer possible to create an all conquering super tactic - not because the game cheats, but because the ME is as realistic as its ever been. This is the main issue people have, in previous FMs, you could make a single tactic and it would last 3+ years, a single un-altered tactic would be doing well to last 3+ GAMES in FM08, this is entirely realistic, but i can fully appreciate why people feel cheated and why it annoys some.

FM08 requires MUCH more work on the users behalf, until people figure this out the "the game cheats" rants will continue.

2/ As you yourself states, point 2 is the only valid point. The ONLY thing SI have done wrong is allow people to THINK they're being cheated.

As to "60% of people think the game cheats" - statsitics are generally irrelevant, believe me when i say the majority of regular GQ-ers will not have looked at this thread due to the title.

3/ SI have not made the game cheat. I can see why you could think they have in order to make it a challenge, but consider the other side of things - why would people who have been making this game for years need to cheat? + why do we see the same things happening in all human network games? The simple fact is the game DOES NOT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN HUMAN AND AI USERS. SI have stated this, hence the futility of the many threads like this one.

Forgive me if i'm starting to lose patience, but this thread is going round in circles, as anyone with half a brain could have predicted, and as such is not going to achieve a thing, other than point out to SI what they already know - people believe what they want to.

[Nomis07]

Why do i need a decent tactic against managers with CA 50? any tactic should beat them

That's nonsense, any manager can win any game on a given day, no matter what their current ability is like. In the context of your argument it would take forver for us to acheive anything in FM because when we start the game our CA is dramatically lower than Fergies or Wengers, yet we can ebat them. Do you think that is a problem with the game too or is your view totally one sided against the AI and their ability to defeat the odds?

Also why do i need to make team talks ? do AI managers use team talks that affect their team as much as mine?

Yes I assume they do, I attribute poor management and team talks in my ability to beat Man Utd 4-0 after losing 3-0 in the prevuious leg, beat Sevilla 5-0 after losing 5-1 in the previous leg. AI managers are as prone to unusual defeats and 2nd half no shows as we are.

And tell me you have not see a defender with speed 12 running faster than your speed 19 striker.

What's the strikers determination, team work, stamina etc like? Was the strikers fitness lower than the defenders? These could all affect the strikers ability to outrun the defender, having a 19 for speed does not and should not guarantee him getting the ball.

After you just started the game take a look on 2nd German division and there is already a player WNT by Roma , geene scout says CA 115 PA170.. a bargain , well without the 3rd party software i would have to scout Germany for 2 months to find him , do you think that i can beat Roma ( from non active legaue...) in signing him ?

You start the game with a knowledge of the local regions, when you start the game Spalletti has been at Roma for a number of seasons and so has had his scouts do work you were unable to do. Are you seriously suggesting that all managers in the game should start off with the same knowledge and their history should not be taken into account?? You think it's unfair that Man Utd with Fergie and 20 odd years as manager knows about a league two player from the start but you (1 day into your managerial career) don't?

Why do i have to sign decent scouts and decent coaches? AI teams develop their players even without any coaches and sign the best players around without even having to scout them.

It's been well documented on these forums that AI teams don't sign the bes tplayers and make strange signings all the time, so I don't think you're right there. As for developing players, that's just not true, a player with 190PA will not reach 190 with a german 2nd division team, he will only reach it depending on the facilities, squad success etc.

[Ched]

Why do i need a decent tactic against managers with CA 50? any tactic should beat them

Also why do i need to make team talks ? do AI managers use team talks that affect their team as much as mine?

And tell me you have not see a defender with speed 12 running faster than your speed 19 striker.

After you just started the game take a look on 2nd German division and there is already a player WNT by Roma , geene scout says CA 115 PA170.. a bargain , well without the 3rd party software i would have to scout Germany for 2 months to find him , do you think that i can beat Roma ( from non active legaue...) in signing him ?

Why do i have to sign decent scouts and decent coaches? AI teams develop their players even without any coaches and sign the best players around without even having to scout them.

Make a test , open FMM and do the "position cheat" in any 100% crap player , do not play him at all , if you don't recieve a load of offers for him i will dance naked in a gay bar.

Any adtantage AI has over the player = cheating

I'm a little disappointed here, for every decent point you make you come out with something so laughable it ruins the entire post.

About managers with 50CA - a very valid point - there should be a greater degree of managerial incompotence with some managers.

Team talks - the AI does use them - and the AI does screw them up occasionally. Perfectly reasonable imo.

The amount of factors involved in 2 players reaching a ball are numerous, pace is not the only important one - also consider, that due to the 2d nature of the ME, it is not possible to see which way a player is leaning, etc - there are so manay factors involved looking at pace is not going to give you an explanation.

The german player is wanted, because when the game starts up shortlists are generated for AI managers - otherwise you wouldn't have a single signing in the first 3 months would you??? Do you believe that in real life managers forget everything every season? No of course they don't, pre existing shortlists is the only way to make is look realistic. There are MANY problems with transfers that help the user rather than the AI.

AI teams with no scouts - again a valid point - but would you rather they did nothing? How many times have you signed a player without scouting him? It happens, the AI does it, the human does it, no advantage either way. The reason AI managers have JPA and JPP stats is for this reason - because IRL managers can often tell who compotent players are.

And then you ruined the post by posting tripe...

you receive offers for him because you have made him world class - it's not rocket science.

"Any adtantage AI has over the player = cheating" - and this is the single most stupid thing i've seen today, SI make the game as realistic as possible - if that means the AI is smarter than the human then they've done their job, as a RL manager would no doubt be better than us.

[Ched]

Lol nomis beat me to it

[gcormack]

i put a bit of both because i dont think the game cheats but it is not programmed to be a perfect football simulation so some things that work in real life dont work in the game and somethings that work in the game dont work in real life (e.g. 4-2-4). so when someone comes on complaining that the game cheats, someone else that doesnt have this problem replies with a way to exploit this part of the game. which is why we would probably be better at FM than sir Al, not because we know football better but because we know the game better.

[Themistofelis]

"Any adtantage AI has over the player = cheating" - and this is the single most stupid thing i've seen today, SI make the game as realistic as possible - if that means the AI is smarter than the human then they've done their job, as a RL manager would no doubt be better than us.

This is the single most stupid thing i 've seen today , AI doesn't think it plays the game under different rules.

It is like playing an RPG and all hostiles magically regenerate their life

It is like playing an RTS and AI uses no resources to build troops

Is like playing a financial SIM and AI can not go into dept

It is like playing an FPS and AI uses no ammo

Personally i think that all those games are insulting my IQ , specially when they call themselves "simulations"

Simulation = everyone plays with the same rules , no?

Q: Why the game does not generate a list with the best bargains around the planet for me when i start a game?

[Nomis07]

Is like playing a financial SIM and AI can not go into dept

I don't mean to be rude, but are you making this stuff up for a laugh or something. Loads of people have listed Man Utd and Liverpool of examples of clubs that eventually go into administration and end up in legaue 1. It's pretty obvious the AI does and can go into debt!!

Q: Why the game does not generate a list with the best bargains around the planet for me when i start a game?

I'm lost for words.

[Themistofelis]

That's nonsense, any manager can win any game on a given day, no matter what their current ability is like. In the context of your argument it would take forver for us to acheive anything in FM because when we start the game our CA is dramatically lower than Fergies or Wengers, yet we can ebat them. Do you think that is a problem with the game too or is your view totally one sided against the AI and their ability to defeat the odds?

Sure , but how come they use optimal tactics every single time?

Yes I assume they do, I attribute poor management and team talks in my ability to beat Man Utd 4-0 after losing 3-0 in the prevuious leg, beat Sevilla 5-0 after losing 5-1 in the previous leg. AI managers are as prone to unusual defeats and 2nd half no shows as we are.

I assume differently

What's the strikers determination, team work, stamina etc like? Was the strikers fitness lower than the defenders? These could all affect the strikers ability to outrun the defender, having a 19 for speed does not and should not guarantee him getting the ball.

Against turtle defenders it should , difference in stamina is not that big when you have to deal with developed players , i mean condition 61 vs condition 58 is not that a great difference and trust me a faster player will always beat a slower one to the ball given that their distance from it is the same.

You start the game with a knowledge of the local regions, when you start the game Spalletti has been at Roma for a number of seasons and so has had his scouts do work you were unable to do. Are you seriously suggesting that all managers in the game should start off with the same knowledge and their history should not be taken into account?? You think it's unfair that Man Utd with Fergie and 20 odd years as manager knows about a league two player from the start but you (1 day into your managerial career) don't?

So for AI the game starts before it starts for me , thank you this confirms my post that AI playes with different rules so it is cheating

It's been well documented on these forums that AI teams don't sign the bes tplayers and make strange signings all the time, so I don't think you're right there. As for developing players, that's just not true, a player with 190PA will not reach 190 with a german 2nd division team, he will only reach it depending on the facilities, squad success etc.

They don't make strange signings, they sign some cheap players for back up and so do i , ah and i have never ever see top clubs signing any player with PA 110 . If the PA 190 player stays in German 2nd he will reach his potential in time , edit any low division player with FMM and watch his development carefully .

Sorry for not responding to your post 1st .

[Themistofelis]

I don't mean to be rude, but are you making this stuff up for a laugh or something. Loads of people have listed Man Utd and Liverpool of examples of clubs that eventually go into administration and end up in legaue 1. It's pretty obvious the AI does and can go into debt!!

FM is not a financial SIM so you didn't had to take my example at word

[carboreeta]

The one issue i have with the fact that tactics now need to be tweaked/altered/changed/adapted now because the game and ME are more complex and realistic is that this doesnt really fit in with real football management.

As a United for the last 20 years (Fergies Years) fergie has played (until the last couple of seasons) a 4-4-2 which has pretty much been the same formula fo rall this time. The factor that changed this from the early years of near relegation to world beaters has been improvemtns in training/facilities and above all playing staff.

Most teams in world football have a definite prefered formation and way of playing (individual and team) for I would say over 95% of their games (yes stat from out of nowhere but wanted to quantify my thoughts).

In most versions of Champ/FM you drew up a formation adn that was it for the most part then it was everything else that needed to improve to make you better.

All the above is not represented in game by the need (so we are advised by wwfan and others) to change tactics/formations often and also the way the AI seems to chop and change so much duing a game.

So many changes to individual/team instructions and formations destroy the confidence and understandign built up by teams such as Man Utd where everyone understands what they need to do and most days go and do it. team gelling.

Sum up - most premiership mangers have their formationa and tactics and rarely deviate unless faced with extremely superior opposition/last 5 minutes and need a goal - why 4-2-4 is not unrealistic but starts a little early.

hope this qualifies as a "sensible post"

[Nomis07]

Themistofelis,

Sorry, I would go through your previous posts and tell you exactly what is wrong with each, but they are all just wrong and I don't see the point in going through each one.

I'll take anyones views on board if they think the game cheats for decent reasons, but the ones you have mentioned just don't seem to make any sense. In one breath you want the game to be a simulation of real life and have low CA managers always do badly and in the next breath you want it to be a game and you start the game with the same knowledge as managers who have been in the game for over 20 years. It just doesn't make any sense and I really think you need to decide what you want before you say the game cheats. Game or simulation?

[Themistofelis]

Themistofelis,

Sorry, I would go through your previous posts and tell you exactly what is wrong with each, but they are all just wrong and I don't see the point in going through each one.

I'll take anyones views on board if they think the game cheats for decent reasons, but the ones you have mentioned just don't seem to make any sense. In one breath you want the game to be a simulation of real life and have low CA managers always do badly and in the next breath you want it to be a game and you start the game with the same knowledge as managers who have been in the game for over 20 years. It just doesn't make any sense and I really think you need to decide what you want before you say the game cheats. Game or simulation?

I really like games not simulations but the point is that this game is not even a simulation because it violates it's own (simulating) rules so first the Devs should decide what they want (about it's genre) and then we can talk .

I want the game to be fun and less frustrating , the latest release created too many obstacles for the human manager that it was almost hostile .

If you remember the game we bought from the store (before patch) had some issues with too many lost chances , too many goals that didn't count , wrong marking etc ; many of those issues were fixed but they revealed the philosophy of the Devs and this in my opinion is optimising AI and make it harder for the gamers to succeed .

The result is that AI can do things that i can not , sees things that i don't and uses super gray players that i can not have, i am in no way saying that AI is programmed to cheat but it gets too many freebies ... for the casual player who doesn't care about beating the machine and only looking for a couple of relaxing hours after work this is highly annoying.

[Nomis07]

All the above is not represented in game by the need (so we are advised by wwfan and others) to change tactics/formations often and also the way the AI seems to chop and change so much duing a game.

Yes it qualifies as a sensible post

I don't agree though. I'm in 2020 and in that time I have used 3 tactics, Home, Away and Emergency, I never change them depending on opponent and never make any changes during the match, they haven't been altered at all in the 8 months since I started the long term save. I play home when at home (shock horror), away when away from home lol and I use emergency if it's the last 30 mins of a must win game and it's my gung ho tactic. To combat 4-2-4 at home I change to my away tactic and if away from home I make no changes at all. I don't set opposition instructions and I use the same team talks practically every match. Despite this i've had major success with the likes of Bayern, Spurs, Stuttgart, Widzew Lodz, Wigan, Grasshopper etc.

There is no need to constantly tweak tactics, this is a myth born on these forums that has got people thinking they have to and once you start there's no way back.

[Nomis07]

I really like games not simulations but the point is that this game is not even a simulation because it violates it's own (simulating) rules so first the Devs should decide what they want (about it's genre) and then we can talk .

I want the game to be fun and less frustrating , the latest release created too many obstacles for the human manager that it was almost hostile .

If you remember the game we bought from the store (before patch) had some issues with too many lost chances , too many goals that didn't count , wrong marking etc ; many of those issues were fixed but they revealed the philosophy of the Devs and this in my opinion is optimising AI and make it harder for the gamers to succeed .

The result is that AI can do things that i can not , sees things that i don't and uses super gray players that i can not have, i am in no way saying that AI is programmed to cheat but it gets too many freebies ... for the casual player who doesn't care about beating the machine and only looking for a couple of relaxing hours after work this is highly annoying.

Surely that just means that the AI has been made smarter/harder rather than it is cheating. That's like saying playing MGS4 on very easy is ok, but the AI cheats when you play it on very hard, it doesn't cheat it's just harder.

If you were a real life manager and you were just walking into your first job, but your main rival had just hired a manager same age etc, but over the years (while you sat on your backside ) he has built up a network of knowledgable contacts around the world and so is better placed than you to make signings etc. Would you consider that cheating? IMO it's kinda the same thing as you and the AI.

[Jimbokav1971]

Chopper, Nomis & Ched, excellent posts (thumbup) (Can you even do smileys anymore ).

Has anyone thought that by the same token, a human manager using the such things as FM scout, the T&TG forum, the "corner exploit" and the GPG forum are also ways to "cheat" the game that the AI cannot do?

ps. I triued to "multiquote" Choppers post in this thread but it wouldn't work. Is this a problem with the new forum?

[chopper99]

Chopper, Nomis & Ched, excellent posts (thumbup) (Can you even do smileys anymore ).

Has anyone thought that by the same token, a human manager using the such things as FM scout, the T&TG forum, the "corner exploit" and the GPG forum are also ways to "cheat" the game that the AI cannot do?

ps. I triued to "multiquote" Choppers post in this thread but it wouldn't work. Is this a problem with the new forum?

Jimbo, nice to see you back in GQ.

I had a similar problem when I first started using these new forums but was informed that if you go to your own user page and find something like 'customise options' and from there look for something like 'edit settings'. From here you can select the advanced edit settings which gives you full posting abilities. Although having done that I'm still not sure how the multi-quote feature works.

[wwfan]

Chopper, Nomis & Ched, excellent posts (thumbup) (Can you even do smileys anymore ).

Has anyone thought that by the same token, a human manager using the such things as FM scout, the T&TG forum, the "corner exploit" and the GPG forum are also ways to "cheat" the game that the AI cannot do?

ps. I triued to "multiquote" Choppers post in this thread but it wouldn't work. Is this a problem with the new forum?

No

it's

not

Like all things, it is just about experience

[chopper99]

Show off

[Nomis07]

I usually just enter the codes myself, [+QUOTE] at the start and [+/QUOTE] at the end (without the + signs). I can't seem to do smilies though, can do the obvious ones, but not sure how to do confused,anngry etc.

[Mike7077]

I don't really want to enter the debate while I'm at work because I don't have time, but I just have one... wonderment for those that think the game cheats. What would be the point of it? The AI experiences no emotions, so why would SI make it so that it is capable of cheating? Who would gain from that?

[Andy20]

It doesen't cheat but there is flaws which make you feel cheated.

For example... A totally rubbish striker all of a sudden skinning 2 defenders and burying one in the top corner from 25 yards in the last 5 minutes to steal the lead off you. I only played 10 games on FM 08 before I got fed up with rubbish players doing unrealistically good things against my defenders who were some of the best in that division.

A midfielder with about 6 creativity and 7 passing doing a few wonder passes that usually always get behind your defence even when ultra defensive or deep. It feels like the realism is not there when that sort of thing happens.

[Nomis07]

It doesen't cheat but there is flaws which make you feel cheated.

For example... A totally rubbish striker all of a sudden skinning 2 defenders and burying one in the top corner from 25 yards in the last 5 minutes to steal the lead off you. I only played 10 games on FM 08 before I got fed up with rubbish players doing unrealistically good things against my defenders who were some of the best in that division.

A midfielder with about 6 creativity and 7 passing doing a few wonder passes that usually always get behind your defence even when ultra defensive or deep. It feels like the realism is not there when that sort of thing happens.

That's part of football though and not unrealistic at all. Remember the Kevin Davies goal all those years back where he dribbled past 4 players and scored, and look at him now you wouldn't give him a chanc eof doing that. Look at Lilian Thuram's goals in world cup 98 against Croatia, he's hardly known for his goalscoring ability. It happens.

Just because your defenders are some of the best in the division doesn't mean they won't get caught out by lesser teams or lesser players in general, Rio Ferdinand is considered one of the best defenders in the world, but even he makes mistakes from time to time.

[Michael F]

SI have said repeadedly that the game cant differentiate between human & AI users so it cant cheat

[carboreeta]

That's part of football though and not unrealistic at all. Remember the Kevin Davies goal all those years back where he dribbled past 4 players and scored, and look at him now you wouldn't give him a chanc eof doing that. Look at Lilian Thuram's goals in world cup 98 against Croatia, he's hardly known for his goalscoring ability. It happens.

Just because your defenders are some of the best in the division doesn't mean they won't get caught out by lesser teams or lesser players in general, Rio Ferdinand is considered one of the best defenders in the world, but even he makes mistakes from time to time.

Nomis the problem is that we can all find examples in real life to back up things that happen in FM but it does "feel" liek they occur with too much regularity in game but that may come down to the fact we only remember the times we were "cheated" if this happens and you still win things great but if you have problems playing the game and loose ths forms you into the AI cheats route.

No one buys a game to be rubbish at it - so if you take all the tactics advice use someones tactic that rules "maybe kimz" get the best training regimes give great team talks and so forth and get great players from the good players suggestions and you are still loosing it kinda tends to put you in a foul mood.

The further back yuo go in the Chmap/FM series the larger percentage of people who can succeed maybe why the AI is cheating complaint gets bigger year on year (maybe)

[Ryknow]

It doesnt cheat, it just can do things better than you sometimes lol.

Wait till they make machines that think for themselves to the point they want to kill us and can do it........*hums terminator music* "Dundundundundun"

[Nomis07]

Nomis the problem is that we can all find examples in real life to back up things that happen in FM but it does "feel" liek they occur with too much regularity in game

I think it's the perception that they happen on a regular basis, rather than them actually happening on a regular basis. People have to remember that in one hour they are watching 5 maybe 6 highlighted games in FM, and in those 5 or 6 games there will be 2 strange happenings. If we were to sit and watch 5 or 6 premier league matches back to back we would probably see the same, but we don't notice it because most games are spread out over a period of time, it doesn't seem so often then.

I bet if someone sat down and played the game in real time i.e. every day played only one day of the game, they wouldn't think things happened on such a regular basis.

[Mike7077]

SI have said repeadedly that the game cant differentiate between human & AI users so it cant cheat

This is a very good point.

[carboreeta]

I bet if someone sat down and played the game in real time i.e. every day played only one day of the game, they wouldn't think things happened on such a regular basis.

Sure but isnt it a step backwards when the game 10 years ago could play a season in 1 hour and now it takes a year by the time thats finished we will buy FM2009 not great value for money

I for one have always used commentary only (yes makes it harder to get good in the later versions especially this one) but I want to get a few seasons in only playing a couple of times a week.

Thats why the idea of a better Assistant feedback that I have seen around would be of great assistance to me. Implementation like this gives varying levels of difficulty to help out lazy/noobs/casual and can be turned off by those who dont want it

[kiwityke]

I am willing to accept the game doesn't cheat if anyone can answer me these 3 questions.

1. Can the AI manager see my team instructions, ie who my playmaker or targetman is set to. Attacking instructions etc?

2. Can the AI manager see my individual player instructions?

3. Does the AI manager have a near perfect understanding of the tactical system within the game, ie the correlation between all the different sliders?

If the answer to these is no, then I will happily admit that I am wrong the game doesn't cheat its just my poor teamtalk/tactics/media interaction that cuases the random results to happen.

If the answer is yes to any of the above then I feel the game gives the AI an advantage over me and that constitutes cheating.

I would also like to say I am hugely successful at this game and have developed 3 good solid tactics that have won me a lot of leagues, cups etc in lots of divisions. But I still can't help feeling at times that I have been cheated, so its not just people who lose all the time that complain about this.

[Mike7077]

kiwityke -

The problem with your questions is that you talk about the 'AI manager' like it's one entity. You have to remember that the game is full of AI managers, all coded and programmed differently. Some will have a better tactical understanding than others. As for whether each one you come up against can see your player instructions, you have to remember that the AI makes no distinction between human- and AI-controlled teams. So if you can't see the AI's instructions, it can't see yours. That's my understanding, anyway.

[kiwityke]

kiwityke -AI makes no distinction between human- and AI-controlled teams. So if you can't see the AI's instructions, it can't see yours. That's my understanding, anyway.

Thank you for that. It is something that has been bugging me for a while. The AI sometimes seems to pre-empt my every move, I switch my playmaker the AI has a person waiting etc. So it made me wonder.

Well for one I am willing to admit I was wrong the AI deosn't cheat its a combination of several factors that make me think I am being cheated.

[Balthazars]

There is no way in heck that this game cheats... I am easily capable of taking a top-level team to success, although not "dominate every game, win everything with a goal-difference-of-+100" kind of success, which makes perfect sense. Sometimes my team is on absolute fire and sometimes they couldn't hit jack ****; which, guess what, also happens in real life. I think the game is a perfectly good simulation of the actual game and that it works fine.

It is your tactics. (and team-talks and whatever other bazillion things that affect the calculation of the match result).

[Ched]

Thank you for that. It is something that has been bugging me for a while. The AI sometimes seems to pre-empt my every move, I switch my playmaker the AI has a person waiting etc. So it made me wonder.

Well for one I am willing to admit I was wrong the AI deosn't cheat its a combination of several factors that make me think I am being cheated.

The reason the AI seems to react well to your moves is that, in effect, the AI watches the match in full - hence whilst you may have to wait 5mins before you see a highlight of your error, the AI spots gaps as soon as they become apparent - for this reason, when i'm creating a new tactic, i watch matches in full detail - its time consuming, but after winning my 15th consecutive premiership, it really is worth the effort

I'm glad to see we've convinced you the AI doesn't cheat. Now we just need SI to make a decent ass man so that other users can be shown where they're going wrong, rather than feeling cheated.

[kiwityke]

when i'm creating a new tactic, i watch matches in full detail - its time consuming, but after winning my 15th consecutive premiership, it really is worth the effort

I just don't have time to watch the whole game sadly, I have a fulltime job, I am doing a degree and I play football for a part-time team and I coach one of the kids teams. So you do the math, I need my tactics to be quick and easy to setup, I dont want to have to have another job ie playin FM.

SI to make a decent ass man so that other users can be shown where they're going wrong, rather than feeling cheated.

Here is the crux of this whole argument in my opinion, most players of FM have no idea what happens within the tactic formula that works out the results, some form of prompting would be nice, as it would help people like me who are generally good at creating tactics, but no longer have time to do it properly. It would also help the people who struggle to come up with decen tactics.

[PaulHartman71]

I think it's quite sad that 19 percent of the people that have voted think a game cheats against them

[Dave C]

There's a problem in the poll in that a crucial option is missing.

"Cheating" shouldn't even be there. It should be:

-The match engine is flawed

-It's your tactics

-It's your player interaction

-All the above

The latter being the case.

[Ched]

I just don't have time to watch the whole game sadly, I have a fulltime job, I am doing a degree and I play football for a part-time team and I coach one of the kids teams. So you do the math, I need my tactics to be quick and easy to setup, I dont want to have to have another job ie playin FM.

Here is the crux of this whole argument in my opinion, most players of FM have no idea what happens within the tactic formula that works out the results, some form of prompting would be nice, as it would help people like me who are generally good at creating tactics, but no longer have time to do it properly. It would also help the people who struggle to come up with decen tactics.

Well, i can safely say from experience it is entirely possible to fit FM around any commitments, you don't have to play it THAT often. However the only suggestion i have is that if you want tactics to be quick and easy, buy Fifa manager - i mean this as no slur, it's just a less time consuming game - however it is also vastly inferior, but FM isn't going to get simpler any time soon.

As to your second point - it has been suggested many times that SI need to use the ass man as a means of prompting the user in the right direction - as the game becomes more complex this is becoming more of an essential feature, let's hope that it can be implemented before FM loses the casual gamer.

[Ched]

There's a problem in the poll in that a crucial option is missing.

"Cheating" shouldn't even be there. It should be:

-The match engine is flawed

-It's your tactics

-It's your player interaction

-All the above

The latter being the case.

The match engine will ALWAYS be flawed in some way or other, whilst we want perfection i can safely say it will never be achieved, there are just too many variables in a football match to make it possible AND realistic.

[Dave C]

The match engine will ALWAYS be flawed in some way or other, whilst we want perfection i can safely say it will never be achieved, there are just too many variables in a football match to make it possible AND realistic.

Of course. There's no way you'll get a large portion of the users to accept that though. There are people who attack the testers every year at the fact any bugs manage to make it into the game at all.

[knap]

3. Does the AI manager have a near perfect understanding of the tactical system within the game, ie the correlation between all the different sliders?

If you read the AI tactics thread of FM Britain by Abranovich then the AI tactics are fairly basic, in fact you can win games with a basic 424.

[triple-j]

The game does cheat, yes, 100%. But if you're a good enough manager, with a good enough team and good enough tactics, it won't prevent you winning anything.

I've played too many games and seen too many daft things happen to know that the AI cheats. I have known without a shadow of a doubt that I will not win a particular game BEFORE it has even started, despite having a fitter team with 5 x better players, simply because the result of my closest rival went against them earlier that day. Because it went against them, the AI ensured my result went against me.

[Ched]

The game does cheat, yes, 100%.

Sorry, i stopped reading at that point.

"Better to say nothing and be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt"

[The Smudge]

I dont think it cheats but their are some flaws in the game which give this perception. The one that annoys me the most is the last minute goals one especially but only in this circumstance otherwise you are to blame for not changing your tactic. In the last minutes you should go defensive when ai goes 4-2-4 but the ammount of time added on and the time it takes for tactics to change can sometimes give the ai an advantage. I will use an example that i experienced. I was in uefa cup and needed to win final game of group stages to go through with a few minutes to go I take the lead to make it 2-1. At that moment it says 7 minutes of injury time (with no injuries????). Anyway i know from experience the ai goes 4-2-4 so go to change my tactic to defensive. The game starts and even though play was stopped for some reason it hasn't taken affect. From the centre they go straight up and score and instantly it changes to defensive for me. Obviously i then have to change back to attacking but the injury time just runs right through and doesn't change the tactic back. Now its amazing how often this has happened to me maybe im just unlucky but if not i think it might happen to alot of others aswell and its amazingly frustrating.

[Antonin]

1/ The general pattern of threads involving cheating go:

OP "The game cheats"

Someone who knows a little more than the OP "No it doesn't"

OP "you're a fanboy then"

etc etc etc

To say that anyone who accuses the game of cheating gets shouted down or abused is nonsense, I personally, have been repeatedly abused by several people claiming the game cheats because i've had the audacity to disagree with them...

3/ SI have not made the game cheat. I can see why you could think they have in order to make it a challenge, but consider the other side of things - why would people who have been making this game for years need to cheat? + why do we see the same things happening in all human network games? The simple fact is the game DOES NOT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN HUMAN AND AI USERS. SI have stated this, hence the futility of the many threads like this one.

Forgive me if i'm starting to lose patience, but this thread is going round in circles, as anyone with half a brain could have predicted, and as such is not going to achieve a thing, other than point out to SI what they already know - people believe what they want to.

Well, I have been a member of this forum for a very long time, and I rarely post here. Why? Because it gets pretty tedious getting shouted down if one has any complaints about the game or makes any suggestions on what SI could do to make the game more fun for those of us who do not have an infinite amount of time to tweak and modify tactics and read gigantic tactics guides that [for many of us] do not work. SI could 1) implement a 'never get fired' option so that players who just want to manage a single team can do so, with enough time to find a tactic that occasionally works, or 2) implement difficulty levels.

Mention these things, ask these questions, brings only insults from fellow forum members. I have been here since 2001 and that has been my experience.

Why would SI make a game that cheats? Well, I will repeat what I said years ago: there are major weaknesses in the game engine. Witness the 'success' over the years of people who have developed 'super-tactics' that exploit those weaknesses.

If you are losing patience I'm sorry. I will respectfully point out that you needn't take part in a situation where your patience is being tested. People like me are simply trying to find a way to have more fun with a game that we have paid for, and keep paying for, version after version. FM is a beautiful looking game that is supposed to simulate the most beautiful game on earth.

It has a lot of potential. A LOT. Really. But it too often seems like an exercise in frustration. For some of us it seems more like work that what it is: a form of entertainment.

Years ago some veteran FM player on this forum told me FM is not supposed to be fun, that if I wanted to have fun I should go play some kiddie game. I scratch my head at that one...