A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[Loversleaper]

Actually I'm trying to come up with solutions for people who have access to things I'm relatively familiar with. The long and short of it is that this is happening, get used to it. Also I'd like to point out I'm not a whole argument.

I haven't seen any evidence that you are comming up with solutions and even trying to, especially with the "this is happening, get used to it"...

I can get used to it, I am blessed with all the things that make it possible for me to play the game. I just have difficulties swallowing this whole piracy aspect, let's face it, most of the people that acquire pirated copies of games, music and movies are from places where the average income is 50-60 euros a month. Now to expect these people to use a tenth of their yearly income on a single game is just 'out to lunch'...

[The Welsh Lad]

That would be playing habit, and computer spec, you think that it searches your computer for all personal information.

[milnerpoint]

According to Milnerpoint, steam collects info whilst running in offline mode, then sends it when set to online mode, which you will have to do in order to patch your game. How will you know what info they have collected from this method?

yes but its not going through you computer looking for passwords and log in details, it will gather info on your gaming habbits, system info and prob not a lot else.

[themadsheep2001]

That would be playing habit, and computer spec, you think that it searches your computer for all personal information.

yep, this is the kind of stuff it collects http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

[Kriss]

yep, this is the kind of stuff it collects http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Participation in the survey is optional, and anonymous

[Kriss]

According to Milnerpoint, steam collects info whilst running in offline mode, then sends it when set to online mode, which you will have to do in order to patch your game. How will you know what info they have collected from this method?

Participation in the survey is optional, and anonymous

[themadsheep2001]

Participation in the survey is optional, and anonymous

Exactly, hardly sinister data mining.

[Loversleaper]

I don't see you doing much except crying about people's lives being over because they can't play a computer game.

Hey listen kid, why did you have to throw something like this? When have I been crying about anything or mention people's lives are over? This tends to be the last wall of defense, which doesn't really make you look like an adult...

Keep things civil and refrain from projecting untrue images on fellow gamers.

Thanks

[The Welsh Lad]

I haven't seen any evidence that you are comming up with solutions and even trying to, especially with the "this is happening, get used to it"...

I can get used to it, I am blessed with all the things that make it possible for me to play the game. I just have difficulties swallowing this whole piracy aspect, let's face it, most of the people that acquire pirated copies of games, music and movies are from places where the average income is 50-60 euros a month. Now to expect these people to use a tenth of their yearly income on a single game is just 'out to lunch'...

Thats a bit far fetch to say the least. That is roughly £40, so they can afford food, electircity, cloths and a computer but internet is to much. Think they need to re-work their priorities, I would be wanting to use has little electric has possible to make sure I can get more food, so they would be no computer to start with. Need to re-work on the example, I'm affraid.

[Loversleaper]

Thats a bit far fetch to say the least. That is roughly £40, so they can afford food, electircity, cloths and a computer but internet is to much. Think they need to re-work their priorities, I would be wanting to use has little electric has possible to make sure I can get more food, so they would be no computer to start with. Need to re-work on the example, I'm affraid.

So, I ask you : what is the average income in Thailand?...

[Kriss]

As somebody said of Sega/SI earlier if you're going to quote figures, make sure they're correct.

[afced7]

I haven't seen any evidence that you are comming up with solutions and even trying to

Clearly you've missed most of the thread.

Hey listen kid, why did you have to throw something like this? When have I been crying about anything or mention people's lives are over? This tends to be the last wall of defense, which doesn't really make you look like an adult...

Keep things civil and refrain from projecting untrue images on fellow gamers.

Thanks

How about you follow your own advice there sonny, your point seems far more like a last line of defence than mine squirt

[Kriss]

Stop with the handbags please, or there'll be no discussion.

[afced7]

Stop with the handbags please, or there'll be no discussion.

Why is there one anyway? People will need to use steam and have internet access to play the game. What more is there to this thread?

[Loversleaper]

Clearly you've missed most of the thread.

How about you follow your own advice there sonny, your point seems far more like a last line of defence than mine squirt

Someone shot down your remarks on internet connection so you are a little tied up, whoop-ti-doo. No need to vent your frustrations on me. "Squirt" is that the best you can come up with? ...

[afced7]

Someone shot down your remarks on internet connection so you are a little tied up, whoop-ti-doo. No need to vent your frustrations on me. "Squirt" is that the best you can come up with? ...

Hmm actually I don't think they did. I'm not nearly as tied up as you seem to be. Clearly not, why? Is kid the best you could come up with?

[FrazT]

The Mods have tried very hard to keep this thread open for reasonable discussion of this issue. As Kriss has said, if if cant be kept civil, without the personal sniping, then infractions will follow, so have a think before posting again

[The Welsh Lad]

So, I ask you : what is the average income in Thailand?...

Whilst obivously there are going to people who are on less than the average the average is 132,880.00 Thai Baht which is 2,781.52 pounds sterling.

Thai Minimum wage varies from province to provice with Bangkok and Samut Prakan on the highest (£4.32) and Payao, Pichit, Prae and Mae Hong Son on the lowest (£3.17)

EDIT: Should add that these figures are from 2010

RE-EDIT: I know average wages should be taken with a pinch of salt because in the UK its about £30,000 i think and I don't know many on near that. and also this is the last on the subject otherwise it will go off topic.

[Loversleaper]

Make no mistake, if a quarter of the people that usually pirate the game switch to purchasing Football Manager 2012, the sales of the game worldwide would more than double. This would lead to increased development budgets and more benefits for all of you who do buy the game.

@Welsh lad

You see this is what I was referring to, not if the people in poor countries have their priorities straight regarding internet connections - so you missed the point (but I may have not been totally clear).

Statistically SEGA could be correct, but there is another side to the story. These large numbers they are talking about doesn't give the whole picture because if this was only going on in the "west" then I could see the point, but we are talking about a global perspective. Globally most piracy occurs in countries where people are generally very poor compared to our standards, they can't afford to purchase the game as we can. So, to think that forcing us to use Steam will magically make these people all of a sudden change their minds to dish out large ammounts (for them) for a computer game is what is really far fetched. These numbers being thrown up doesn't coincide with reality...

[cynet]

Sega recorded some of this biggest losses this year, ran into millions, so they need to try and make as much as they can from the games they are publishing, trying to cut the piracy down is one tall order, will they beat it? Nope, but then how many people actually do pirate the game or use the no cd crack? Is it millions of users or thousands, or even hundred's, my guess would be hundreds in truth.

Will it make them make more money going down the Steam route?, probably but not the margins they are probably projecting and in truth Sega need SI and not the other way around.

[The Welsh Lad]

@Loversleaper

Obviously this decision is going to make some people not be able to play the game, they understand that. They understand that its going to cost people a bit more money i.e. getting internet put in. The reason for this is whilst in an ideal world is to stop the person that cracks the game, because we are not in an ideal world this looks at making the people that download a cracked game from doing so because patches (I think and should) will only be available through Steam, and if you haven't got a register game through Steam (not bought) you wont be able to download patches (I know that these will most probably find a way to be cracked aswell) but you should be able to see why they have taken it down this route.

It may end up being the wrong decision, it may end up being the right decision. We wont know until the game is released.

The problem is people say like the qoute you put, everyone that does not buy the game comes under the pirate bracket, thats why people say you wont stop pirates because they are hell bent on breaking the law, the same has hackers because they like a challenge. They well I hope will be stopped, its the ones that download it they want to stop.

My first ever Managerment game (cant remember the name it was like playing a board game and had the player death square in the corner, land on it and a player died), I had to save for out of my weekly pocket money. I can sympathise with people who struggle to afford lifes luxuries. But because I cant afford a buggehti doesnt mean I should illegaly obtain one. I have never owned a top brand pair of trainers all mine come from Shoe Zone for £10. I've had to save up for FM12, sorry for those who can't afford to save but still doesn't give them the right to steal. Everyone was up in arms because of the riots, some of the looters were saying they did it because other people have the stuff why cant they (Is that right, because you got it I haven't therefore I must steal it).

If companies didn't want to protect its products there would be no shop shutters, no car alarms etc. I understand some peoples have the right to come on here and fight for the ones that havent got interent but unfortunatly unless this decision goes belly up on release day nothing can be done.

EDIT: Sorry for the car analogy Kriss

[Loversleaper]

@Loversleaper

Obviously this decision is going to make some people not be able to play the game, they understand that. They understand that its going to cost people a bit more money i.e. getting internet put in. The reason for this is whilst in an ideal world is to stop the person that cracks the game, because we are not in an ideal world this looks at making the people that download a cracked game from doing so because patches (I think and should) will only be available through Steam, and if you haven't got a register game through Steam (not bought) you wont be able to download patches (I know that these will most probably find a way to be cracked aswell) but you should be able to see why they have taken it down this route.

It may end up being the wrong decision, it may end up being the right decision. We wont know until the game is released.

The problem is people say like the qoute you put, everyone that does not buy the game comes under the pirate bracket, thats why people say you wont stop pirates because they are hell bent on breaking the law, the same has hackers because they like a challenge. They well I hope will be stopped, its the ones that download it they want to stop.

My first ever Managerment game (cant remember the name it was like playing a board game and had the player death square in the corner, land on it and a player died), I had to save for out of my weekly pocket money. I can sympathise with people who struggle to afford lifes luxuries. But because I cant afford a buggehti doesnt mean I should illegaly obtain one. I have never owned a top brand pair of trainers all mine come from Shoe Zone for £10. I've had to save up for FM12, sorry for those who can't afford to save but still doesn't give them the right to steal. Everyone was up in arms because of the riots, some of the looters were saying they did it because other people have the stuff why cant they (Is that right, because you got it I haven't therefore I must steal it).

If companies didn't want to protect its products there would be no shop shutters, no car alarms etc. I understand some peoples have the right to come on here and fight for the ones that havent got interent but unfortunatly unless this decision goes belly up on release day nothing can be done.

EDIT: Sorry for the car analogy Kriss

I think if you look at how many people in the "west" actually download pirated copies compared to how many that don't have internet connections then I don't think SEGA are going to make record sales. Once again, the wrong people are getting blamed...

Just because people are looting in London it doesn't mean that we have to have a curfew in Amsterdam...

[Lord Rowell]

Great post Lord Rodwell, unfortunately that won't change anything.

we use words like "loyalty", we like to think of Miles Jacobson and people at SI like they're our personal friends, we have been keen to support them through the years not only buying their games but also giving feedback and spending time (which is even more valuable than money) to help them in various ways.

but at the end of the day Miles Jacobson and SI people are business men. I'm pretty sure their deal with steam is a marvellous piece of business for them, so can't really blame them. Unfortunately this means some of us (including lots of old customers) won't buy FM12. If I think about it rationally, it's actually unsurprising that mr Jacobson and SI don't care that much about this. Why should they?

Shame on me for feeling disappointed.

It's Lord "Rowell" but thank for the compliment.

Yes, you're right, Miles Jacobsen's clear first priority is to SI and SEGA, not to the FM Community. I'd be more comfortable with that if he didn't pretend to be one of the fans, but I think he does do that so he is disingenuous.

Great post, very well written and I very much agree with what you have said.

Just give this a bump, hopefully it will be noticed and responded to, though I doubt it very much.

Not much use bumping it as the forum here doesn't support quotes within quotes, so anyone bumping my post will see my responses that were addressed to specific comments written by Miles, except they won't see the comments written by Miles unless they trawl back through the thread. But, if Miles was serious when he said he'd keep reading this thread, then he'll have seen what I've written and that is the most important thing, to me.

I will say in reply to this statement that I do not believe for a second that anyone who provides content for FM in the community will be dodging FM while it is a requirement to activate by Steam. I will still be releasing content where possible and helping others with producing their content where it comes to using the Advanced Rules to create competitions (should this still be possible).

Those who release content for FM absolutely love the game, the need to activate the game via Steam is not going to stop them.

If you wish to continue to release content, fine and enjoy doing so, I respect your position, seriously .

But, I simply don't agree with your wider view on this. You're right, the people who release content, provide data on players etc. clearly love the game and why wouldn't they? After all, its always been a game to a large degree made by the fans and SI have recognised that. Until now. As per my response to Miles, I think they are endangering that relationship now. They can't rely on unconditional love for the game.

I can't help but notice that, among the people here who disagree with SI's initiative re. Steam activation, there seems to be a lot of knowledge about games, piracy, technology etc. - far far more than I possess. There are some very well informed, capable, and respected members of the community who are at odds with SI here. I'd put other content providers into that group as well and I suspect that certainly some are having doubts now about whether they want to continue to provide content or directly help SI. I really think SI has taken its community for granted.

[The Welsh Lad]

I think if you look at how many people in the "west" actually download pirated copies compared to how many that don't have internet connections then I don't think SEGA are going to make record sales. Once again, the wrong people are getting blamed...

Just because people are looting in London it doesn't mean that we have to have a curfew in Amsterdam...

What has people having a cerfew go to do with a kettle of fish.

Pirates are getting blamed becuase they have internet connection and because they are pirates hell bent on breaking the law, breaking the law is breaking the law. If you don't have the internet you cant download craked games. You can buy copied CDs which is illegal aswell so still breaking the law.

People who buy the game and dont have/can't get access to the internet are not getting blamed for anything, they are just an unfourtunate section of people that has a result of can't play FM12.

But, to ignore parts of the post that explains why SI and SEGA have made this decision and make your own conlusion that people without internet, people who cant afford it etc. are being blamed or victimised is obsured. To be frankly honest.

[Jibby123]

Do the piraters send back their sales figures to Sega/SI??

How does anyone know the lost revenue (to the game publishers) from piraters??

Genuine question....I'm just intrigued.

It's in a game publisher's interest to play the line "if we inconvienience you....it will help us make a better game for you".

Marketing suits....

[The Welsh Lad]

@ Lord Rowell

Yes, you're right, Miles Jacobsen's clear first priority is to SI and SEGA, not to the FM Community. I'd be more comfortable with that if he didn't pretend to be one of the fans, but I think he does do that so he is disingenuous

Miles is a fan of the game and a fan of football. Thats why he like many fans of the game want to protect the longevity of the game now, not when it is to late.

But, I simply don't agree with your wider view on this. You're right, the people who release content, provide data on players etc. clearly love the game and why wouldn't they? After all, its always been a game to a large degree made by the fans and SI have recognised that. Until now. As per my response to Miles, I think they are endangering that relationship now. They can't rely on unconditional love for the game.

In the same way, we cant expect the game to be around forever without some sort of protection against pirates (even if it doesn't make much of fence)

[jags4ever]

If you know where to look you can find stats on FM2011 illegal downloads , SEGA and SI will have those stats and it numbers well into the hundreds of thousands from the sites I can find and that doesnt include numerous private trackers where unless you know how to access the site you will never find out. And no im not gonna tell you the sites , I check these things as part of my job so I know what im looking for

Steam isnt a burden on any system purchased in the last 3 years IMO , running a browser is more intensive than anything running in the background - hell set it to low priority and it will chow through nothing while FM is running.

How many sales will SI lose over the activation ? A few but not that many IMO , how many will it gain ? Probably more than it will lose , and TBH if the game is any way decent it will sell very well indeed. I dont think losses by SEGA will have an input into using Steam, that is the premier download system and if you take a step back it could be a lot worse SI could be partnered with EA and be forced to use Origin which is the worst POS ive ever seen in my life

[Lord Rowell]

@ Lord Rowell

Miles is a fan of the game and a fan of football. Thats why he like many fans of the game want to protect the longevity of the game now, not when it is to late.

In the same way, we cant expect the game to be around forever without some sort of protection against pirates (even if it doesn't make much of fence)

I understand your points, The Welsh Lad, but respectfully disagree with your conclusion. I think Miles' approach shows inconsistency with "being a fan" and "protecting longevity" because IMO he's damaging the most important part of what gives this game longevity, the core community who help to build this game.

You are dead right, we can't expect the game not to have protection and nowhere have I suggested otherwise. I'm not a techy expert on these things but, as aforementioned, a lot of people here who do seem to know their stuff think this measure won't help much at all in stopping a cracked copy. I do know enough about the wider context, that stopping a pirate won't make them make a purchase, I've seen enough data on a variety of media to draw that conclusion and this is an area I DO know how to interpret with my economics background.

I think that people could have been presented with alternative options. For example a. Use Steam or b. if you can't / don't want to, keep the disk in your drive. Even if that or other options weren't viable, I'm not convinced this was the right measure. All it will do it annoy people and may well end up creating more piracy.

IMO this whole thing has been badly handled without due consideration to the community. I'd be pretty confident some serious discussions are taking place behind closed doors now. SI were launching FM12 via the blogs and podcasts, here, yet this thread is still the dominant topic. Despite suggestions last night that it was dying, another 5 pages today and getting on for 30 in total now. PR disaster.

[Wakers]

Just an idea:

To stop the inevitable flooding of the forums when the activation servers for Steam get clogged up, SI should really ask if there isn't some sort of grace period can't be added to the activation, i.e. you can play the game for 7 days before activating.

[Jibby123]

If you know where to look you can find stats on FM2011 illegal downloads , SEGA and SI will have those stats and it numbers well into the hundreds of thousands from the sites I can find and that doesnt include numerous private trackers where unless you know how to access the site you will never find out. And no im not gonna tell you the sites , I check these things as part of my job so I know what im looking for ....

Fair one, but it's surely impossible to say how many of those who nicked it for free would have bought the game legit. So in terms of lost revenue, it's impossible to say, no?

This insinuation that this online activation crap is for our (genuine, paying fans year in year out) benefit; i.e. a better game in the future is dressed up way of saying it's purely about profit for them and nothing wrong with that; private companies are about them making profit. Dressing it up as some sort benefit our way is wooly.

As the record companies will never admit how many live show tickets sell on the back of somebody pirating a song, loving it, becoming a fan and so on.

Do SI/Sega have a figure on how many bought the game originally cheap on the 2nd hand market, taking a punt as it was cheap and becoming a fan? As accurate a figure of how many pirated the game who would have genuinely bought it methinks.

I've downloaded illegal music a ton, but would never have paid for it....

[Jibby123]

Just an idea:

To stop the inevitable flooding of the forums when the activation servers for Steam get clogged up, SI should really ask if there isn't some sort of grace period can't be added to the activation, i.e. you can play the game for 7 days before activating.

Good shout....because come release day the steam site will cope right?

[The Welsh Lad]

@ Lord Rodwell

Only time will tell if this hinders the further developement of the game by it damageing the core community.

[Loversleaper]

If you know where to look you can find stats on FM2011 illegal downloads , SEGA and SI will have those stats and it numbers well into the hundreds of thousands from the sites I can find and that doesnt include numerous private trackers where unless you know how to access the site you will never find out. And no im not gonna tell you the sites , I check these things as part of my job so I know what im looking for

Steam isnt a burden on any system purchased in the last 3 years IMO , running a browser is more intensive than anything running in the background - hell set it to low priority and it will chow through nothing while FM is running.

How many sales will SI lose over the activation ? A few but not that many IMO , how many will it gain ? Probably more than it will lose , and TBH if the game is any way decent it will sell very well indeed. I dont think losses by SEGA will have an input into using Steam, that is the premier download system and if you take a step back it could be a lot worse SI could be partnered with EA and be forced to use Origin which is the worst POS ive ever seen in my life

So, of these hundreds of thousands - how many of them are downloaded here in the "west" and how many of them are downloaded in 3rd world countries? If this is your job, do you take these things into consideration or do you assume that one size fits all?

[Lord Rowell]

@ Lord Rodwell

Only time will tell if this hinders the further developement of the game by it damageing the core community.

It's Lord "Rowell" but yes, I agree

[Wakers]

It should do. Sometimes its perfectly fine for a major release, and sometimes it doesn't work for some people.

[stevetranmere]

having had a few days to think about this, and posting a couple of times, the more i think about this the more and more i get annoyed about 1 thing. I am still being forced to use ONE system, and then KEEP it there afterwards. If i was given the OPTION to get rid of steam after activating, and play my game as normal i might think about purchasing fm 2012..

all i am asking for here SI, is the choice to get rid of steam after activation, after all it does nothing to help me after i activate? (im still confused as to why its called a ONE time activation, if steam has to continually check my activation when i load up a game)

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Here's a thought, I supose those "Terrorists" that attacked the servers back on FM09 release day, I presume they are currently planning their 2011 "theatre of operation" (as they now have a chance to do their thing again). Are we confident that they will be thwarted this year?

[Wakers]

They won't do that, too many of them use Steam to play games themselves

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

They won't do that, too many of them use Steam to play games themselves

Yes or perhaps it was the long term business strategy dept of Steam that back in 2008 waged the.....whoops I had better not suggest that! LOL

Still, Steam have done alright out of FM12 this year - well done guys!

[Lord Rowell]

Whole walls of text won't change anything, for FM12 it's steam or nothing, after that depends on the results of this year.

I can't help being amazed at the rhetoric though, you'd think they'd reintroduced slavery and declared war on the Amazonian Indians, it's a bloody game for Christ's sake:D

Nope, but you just managed to say it in about five words;) it doesn't need whole essays and as nothing said here will change it for FM12 it's just becoming a thread for people to show off their debating skills.

The time to make representations is after release if it turns out to be a massive failure I'd think, although if that is the case I doubt it'll need representations.

I thought about replying to these posts last night and decided not to but, on reflection and seeing the tone of other posts, I think a response is necessary and justified.

Both posts above were made very soon after my detailed response to Miles Jacobsen's post. While I can't prove this, I'm pretty confident that both of these posts were aimed at me, given the timing and the nature of the comments (emboldened).

I'm disappointed you feel that way, that you dismiss posts on their size and complexity and, IMO, by doing this, try to dumb down the discussion here and nulify it.

The irony here, of course, is that if you don't like essays / walls of texts, you should have said that to David SEGA (the OP) and then to Miles.

[mantralux]

having had a few days to think about this, and posting a couple of times, the more i think about this the more and more i get annoyed about 1 thing. I am still being forced to use ONE system, and then KEEP it there afterwards. If i was given the OPTION to get rid of steam after activating, and play my game as normal i might think about purchasing fm 2012..

This is exactly it. I don't mind having to activate through Steam. My problem is that I have to keep Steam installed after activation, and that I have to have it active every time I want to play the game. I just did a fresh restart of my computer, and Steam takes 19 seconds to start. Football Manager takes about 70 seconds from pressing 'Play' in Steam to the main menu shows up. Which means that of the roughly 90 seconds it takes to start Football Manager, Steam is roughly 22% of that time. And when it's active, Steam takes up resources like a foreground application, as opposed to a background one.

There are plenty of valid negatives towards Steam, but I could live with all of them if it meant I could use it only for activation, and then never see it again.

[Jibby123]

having had a few days to think about this, and posting a couple of times, the more i think about this the more and more i get annoyed about 1 thing. I am still being forced to use ONE system, and then KEEP it there afterwards. If i was given the OPTION to get rid of steam after activating, and play my game as normal i might think about purchasing fm 2012..

all i am asking for here SI, is the choice to get rid of steam after activation, after all it does nothing to help me after i activate? (im still confused as to why its called a ONE time activation, if steam has to continually check my activation when i load up a game)

I'm a bit computer thick, but is that legit? I'm stuck with steam crap whilst I want to play the game?

I'd never get a free copy of FM and have bought every SI CM/FM game as soon as I physically could on/after release day since about 96/97. In terms of value for money (hrs enjoyment per penny) nothing comes close (including the missus ) so am more than happy to shell out 30 quid, but this steam crap is my arnhem.

I'm going to wait this year. Let you guys test it until patched, then really consider whether FM11 remains my choice of game well in to 2012. It won't make a jot of difference to anyone but me, but hey ho.

[Kriss]

you should have said that to David SEGA (the OP) and then to Miles.

Actually I did to Miles, not for the first time either:D so don't be paranoid, I'm consistent in that respect whichever side of any particular fence people are sitting.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I thought about replying to these posts last night and decided not to but, on reflection and seeing the tone of other posts, I think a response is necessary and justified.

Both posts above were made very soon after my detailed response to Miles Jacobsen's post. While I can't prove this, I'm pretty confident that both of these posts were aimed at me, given the timing and the nature of the comments (emboldened).

I'm disappointed you feel that way, that you dismiss posts on their size and complexity and, IMO, by doing this, try to dumb down the discussion here and nulify it.

The irony here, of course, is that if you don't like essays / walls of texts, you should have said that to David SEGA (the OP) and then to Miles.

It is worth adding that the nay sayers in this thread are not being negative for fun, they still remember the inexcusable debacle of2008, thats the problem. For those that dont remember the whole activation process failed due to various reasons, basically it was a badly thought out plan that is being foisted off on us again this year. One of the saddest moments from that day of shame was when a female Sega staff memeber who was drafted in to reply to the whirlwind of emails from angry customers was subjected to what can only be called dogs abuse. At that time I was angry & frustrated with SI and I sympathised with the frustrations of all (even those being so anti social, though there was no excuse for being so unreasonable) and the thought came to mind, "How did the CM/FM fans games come to this?"

[B.G]

Oh no… I play on a Mac, and I used to install it with the CD, FM11 though I bought through steam, and while FM has never crashed before, it does now, ALL THE TIME, both steam and FM are very unstable.

I was looking forward to installing FM12 fresh with the CD instead of steam to avoid that extremely unstable crappy interface, don't get me wrong, steam is a good idea and all that, but the execution is just horrible, being disconnected from steam out of nothing is something that happens daily, and not just for me, all my friends on steam get disconnected at the same time, and steam often drags FM with it, I have now had to turn on save automatically daily on FM to not lose my progress

Very disappointing SI, but can't say i'm surprised.

[Lord Rowell]

Just in case they've been forgotten, a reminder of when we had a democratic right to vote here.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/274804-Poll-on-Steam-activation

^^^

pigfacemonkeyman's original poll, now closed.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/274914-POLL-STEAM-for-FM-2012

^^^

pauly1616's follow-up poll, also closed.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/274959-Poll-Yes-to-Steam-or-No-to-Steam-you-decide!

^^^

Here was a 3rd poll that barely drew breath, after 3 votes, then closed.

If you view the results, they're not exactly thumping endorsements of SI/SEGA policy.

As I have said before, very disturbing that these have been closed. I understand that the moderators want to keep the discussion in one place but I'm sure posts could be moved, threads could be made "poll only" or they could even have supported a new thread, early in this discussion, that was "poll only". That none of these options occurred makes me conclude that SI/SEGA don't want a situation where the level of support / opposition is quantified.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

This is exactly it. I don't mind having to activate through Steam. My problem is that I have to keep Steam installed after activation, and that I have to have it active every time I want to play the game. I just did a fresh restart of my computer, and Steam takes 19 seconds to start. Football Manager takes about 70 seconds from pressing 'Play' in Steam to the main menu shows up. Which means that of the roughly 90 seconds it takes to start Football Manager, Steam is roughly 22% of that time. And when it's active, Steam takes up resources like a foreground application, as opposed to a background one.

There are plenty of valid negatives towards Steam, but I could live with all of them if it meant I could use it only for activation, and then never see it again.

Yep, use steam initially, then uninstall and patch manually in the future. I could live with (if all goes smoothly) that but I guess Steam wore the trousers in this little shoddy "deal" and hence Staeam get access to my PC on 21st October and always thereafter - great. And I know in theory they gather "harmless" data for marketting purposes but if a Customer Survey Company phoned me asking the same questions I would fob the off as "Prospect uninterested". I cannot metaphorically tell Steam to "F" off in the same way.

[xSEARLEYx]

So what about the people that don't have internet? I do, obviously, but it will lose customers that way.

Can we install the game on more than one PC? If so, great, as I have other family members who would want to play it.

[nessi]

It's Lord "Rowell" but thank for the compliment.

sorry mate, clearly I've been playing to much FM this year! see maybe I should feel relieved that I won't play FM12, thus overcoming my addiction...

[Kriss]

Yep, use steam initially, then uninstall and patch manually in the future. I could live with (if all goes smoothly) that but I guess Steam wore the trousers in this little shoddy "deal" and hence Staeam get access to my PC on 21st October and always thereafter - great. And I know in theory they gather "harmless" data for marketting purposes but if a Customer Survey Company phoned me asking the same questions I would fob the off as "Prospect uninterested". I cannot metaphorically tell Steam to "F" off in the same way.

The data gathering is optional, not mandatory, check the Steam site if you want specific details.