A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[Smurf]

That's a bad thing! Digital rights are bad in itself. I hold my old rights on pieces of software that I physically own and do not need to trust an external platform to do so.

You may hold the rights to your software - but not everybody adheres to this.

Bad - I don't want to update software immediately. I delay it deliberately. In SI's case, I'd rather the patch gets "beta-tested" before I apply it. And knowing SI, I'd wait for the final patch anyway.

As I said in the post - you can disable updates.

So does FM11, without Steam. You just have to have an Internet browser open (shock horror as this often happens).

So how is that any different? Why not use Steams? It's the same thing?

Don't care - I play FM for my own enjoyment and know what I consider to be an "achievement". There is no "right" way to play this game - so Achievements are meaningless.

Achievements are a bit of fun. You may not like them - but others might. This is not about you. But what Steam can offer. For someone that is reluctant or never used this Steam, this might appeal to them.

There are other ways.

Yeh of course there are. How is it any different to using the In-game than another 3rd party piece of software? People complain about lack of resources. But now they will have Skype, Hotmail, Gtalk etc. open too? Why not limit the amount of apps you need to do this and use Steams built in method?

Don't care - I only want to play FM12.

You may only want to. But it's not about you. It's about what Steam can offer, again it might appeal to someone else? Perhaps with Kids or students sharing accommodation? Having multi-player online gaming would be fun them. And there are free games on offer by Steam. So it's another reason that you may like to use it.

Same as above.

Same as above

This is meaningless technical garbage. Files get fragmented regardless of what format it is in.

I said reduce - not stop it all together. And that's Steams explanation not mine. Perhaps take up the technical garbage with them. Fact is it can help reduce fragmentation, which helps with the game running faster.

Steam even include a Defragmentation of game caches in the latest client. And for a good reason. Because it works.

Again meaningless - does anyone bother to read up on how file systems use indexes?

Same as above. Except indexing the location of files does actually speed up the process in locating them. You can find a needle in a haystack if you write down where you put it in the haystack a lot quicker than if you didn't.

Often a bad idea since it suggests a lack of backup mechanisms on the user's part anyway.

A bad idea for who? Cloud storage is ever popular. You don't need to do this. But it allows access to the files through Steam which you'll be using anyway? What's the point in using another 3rd party online cloud storage? More junk to install on the computer - dropbox, iCloud, sugarsync? Why not buy €50 storage disks? People complaining the game costs €50 anyway, do you think they'd prefer a free backup service or an online free one?

Probably the only good reason but I have an external hard drive for that purpose. Plus if I were on the move, downloading my FM save might take forever.

Not everyone has this? Same as above. It's not about you. It's about what Steam can offer.

I only have one machine.

And others like myself have 4. Others have 2, 5, 26. It's not about you. It's what Steam can offer.

If I had a CD without Steam activation, I wouldn't really worry if my disc is stolen. None of this faffing around with accounts.

Yes but then anyone can install your copy of the game on their computer. Exactly what SI are trying to prevent. People illegally obtaining their software via thefts.

Surely you'd be happier knowing that they may have stolen the game, but they can't play it! And the fact is you log back into Steam and download the game yourself again anyway.

I can do that on Amazon too.

Again, using a 3rd party website. Why not use Steams? Same thing?

I'm worried about financial details being stored on Steam in the first place! Not a lack of financial details...

You're not. But others maybe. It's what Steam can offer.

That's cool, but I only want to play FM12.

Fine for you. But others may not want just FM12.

That's cool, but I only want to play FM12.

Same as above

I play FM in windowed mode and on a second monitor.

Not everyone has a 2nd monitor.

So is jumping off a building.

Jumping off a building is losing your life. Not comparable to downloading and using steam?

[afced7]

Then perhaps you could let this thread get back to providing space for those who are or might be but want to ask some questions:) or indeed who aren't but haven't managed to interject themselves yet.

He should be allowed to express his opinion whether he buys the game or not.

[Guest]

Oh, no, I'm willing to accept what I perceive as good reasons, but I haven't had a single one.

Valve know these concerns already - people have already detailed these many times over.

Like not buying a car because I don't trust something third-party within it, I'm simply not buying FM12.

So let me get this straight, you want proof that a piece of software is acceptable as per your requirements but are unwilling to contact the creators of the software to address you specific concerns? You are however willing to repeat your concerns on a forum that is not dedicated to this afore mentioned software & expect people who are not experts in the field to alleviate these issues?

How am I doing so far?

[Kriss]

He should be allowed to express his opinion whether he buys the game or not.

He's expressing it repetetively over page after page, with nothing new for several reams (figuratively) and as a Mod I've decided he's getting too much air space, okay?

[afced7]

He's expressing it repetetively over page after page, with nothing new for several reams (figuratively) and as a Mod I've decided he's getting too much air space, okay?

That's fair enough, just thought that it would be a bit unfair to dismiss his arguments, even if they are repetitive, on the basis that he won't be buying the game is all

[greenone]

It says 'please note this game requires internet to activate' here: http://www.sega.co.uk/fm2012/ What exactly is the problem?

no mention of steam though.

[afced7]

no mention of steam though.

I didn't suggest there was, nor did pigfacemonkeyman suggest there should be. I assume he was worried that people who have no internet connection of their own were being conned out of their money, fortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case any more, at least on the SEGA website.

[SuperStoffer]

Do you have to give Steam your credit crad information to install it?

[themadsheep2001]

Do you have to give Steam your credit crad information to install it?

No you dont

[SuperStoffer]

No you dont

Good. Why are people then talking about they dont want to give steam there information?

Well, we can lie when they ask about name and adress, right? Create an email account, only to use it to register at steam.

Then have Steam in Offline mode forever.

Is it 100% sure that Steam NEVER NEVER EVER, will pop up with something like...... 'check out this game, it's so cool. Only 29.99£', and so on ?

[themadsheep2001]

Good. Why are people then talking about they dont want to give steam there information?

Well, we can lie when they ask about name and adress, right? Create an email account, only to use it to register at steam.

Then have Steam in Offline mode forever.

Is it 100% sure that Steam NEVER NEVER EVER, will pop up with something like...... 'check out this game, it's so cool. Only 29.99£', and so on ?

Pretty sure you can turn the notifications off ( i never have, found some ifty deals becasue of it) give me a sec and i'll try and confirm

EDIT: yes you can turn off the notifications

[Mr.Bojangles]

It's too bad you guys just killed Eastside Hockey Manager instead of going the steam route. Seriously guys, it's much better to have the extra copy protection than no game at all.

Also, I'm still not convinced that the death of EHM had nothing to do with the emergence of the doomed FML a year later (or so)

EDIT: Also, I'm amused by people saying that this will add to piracy because people won't want third party software on their systems, and will therefore pirate a copy from some torrent site (I assume). You'd rather download and install a potentially virus/spyware/malware infested copy of the game because you don't want Steam to know your gaming habits? Or am I missing something here?

[SuperStoffer]

EDIT: Also, I'm amused by people saying that this will add to piracy because people won't want third party software on their systems, and will therefore pirate a copy from some torrent site (I assume). You'd rather download and install a potentially virus/spyware/malware infested copy of the game because you don't want Steam to know your gaming habits? Or am I missing something here?

I think it's okay for Steam to know my gaming habits for the products I buy from them.

But why should they know my gaming habits for products I have purchased somewhere else?

I have World of Warcraft on my PC, will they check this one out too? How often I play?

[Smurf]

I have World of Warcraft on my PC, will they check this one out too? How often I play?

Only if you register the game in Steam, which is optional.

Steam only collects data pertaining to issues with Steam and hardware of computers, so it can better gear the Steam client for future updates.

FM does the same thing.

[SuperStoffer]

Only if you register the game in Steam, which is optional.

Steam only collects data pertaining to issues with Steam and hardware of computers, so it can better gear the Steam client for future updates.

FM does the same thing.

Okay thx.

I'll leave WoW out of it then. Only FM2012 then

[Loversleaper]

EDIT: Also, I'm amused by people saying that this will add to piracy because people won't want third party software on their systems, and will therefore pirate a copy from some torrent site (I assume). You'd rather download and install a potentially virus/spyware/malware infested copy of the game because you don't want Steam to know your gaming habits? Or am I missing something here?

Then you probably will laugh your brains out when the people who don't have internet connections will be looking into this option...

They may be silent on this matter due to obvious reasons, though...

[nessi]

EDIT: Also, I'm amused by people saying that this will add to piracy because people won't want third party software on their systems, and will therefore pirate a copy from some torrent site (I assume). You'd rather download and install a potentially virus/spyware/malware infested copy of the game because you don't want Steam to know your gaming habits? Or am I missing something here?

some people might have the (likely wrong) perception that they'll download that pirate copy and never have to deal again with external programs or anything else including being connected to internet (while you will ALWAYS need steam installed to play FM12). As I already said, I won't bother mostly because the whole process would be almost as ennoying as subscribing to steam. I do believe though that a fair number of people who never considered getting a hacked copy of FM will consider that NOW.

[Loversleaper]

Delaying piracy, well - makes me just want to lie down. Most piracy happens in countries where they can't afford the game, so what makes people think that they can't "afford" to wait a couple of days?...

[Lewisjoe]

i bought fm since year zero and will buy fm12, but this stinks of si just after more money!

they say themselves their "worldwide sales would double."

also why arent we, the fans ever asked? as in a poll?

[Lewisjoe]

Hi Barside - Appreciate your opinion, but as detialed in the post this decision was by absolutely no means taken lightly. Last year we couldn't find what we felt was an acceptable solution. This year we believe we have. Unfortunately I can't disclose any numbers on sales in this forum.

but clearly from this forum, its not acceptable.

[BenjC]

i bought fm since year zero and will buy fm12, but this stinks of si just after more money!

they say themselves their "worldwide sales would double."

also why arent we, the fans ever asked? as in a poll?

Company in trying to make money shocker.

[themadsheep2001]

but clearly from this forum, its not acceptable.

This forum represents a (very vocal) minority of FM players. It its truly not acceptable then sales will likely suffer as a result, but lets actually see first

[Loversleaper]

Company in trying to make money shocker.

I am still failing to see how moving over to only one option in regards to playing the game will make more money???

[nessi]

This forum represents a (very vocal) minority of FM players. It its truly not acceptable then sales will likely suffer as a result, but lets actually see first

there's also a very not vocal minority that doesn't have an internet connection and still doesn't know anything about all this, mind you...

[Smurf]

i bought fm since year zero and will buy fm12, but this stinks of si just after more money!

they say themselves their "worldwide sales would double."

also why arent we, the fans ever asked? as in a poll?

Yeh a company trying to make money isn't really that surprising.

Considering that the revelation that if a Quarter of the people that pirated FM paid for the game it would Double the sales.

That's an awful lot of pirating. (see next one I quoted below)

Delaying piracy, well - makes me just want to lie down. Most piracy happens in countries where they can't afford the game, so what makes people think that they can't "afford" to wait a couple of days?...

Basically - what happened in previous years was that the game was made available by piracy prior to being officially released. This meant people cancelled their pre-orders. Maybe not all of them for the same reason.

What has happened since they announced the game will only be available through authentication on Steam they have seen a significant percentage rise in pre-orders.

So yeh, it's working. They have more pre-orders than ever before. And they don't expect that many cancellations before the official launch.

[Smurf]

I am still failing to see how moving over to only one option in regards to playing the game will make more money???

See above ^^^^^

[themadsheep2001]

there's also a very not vocal minority that doesn't have an internet connection and still doesn't know anything about all this, mind you...

I never disputed that, and that falls under waiting for the actual sales...

[Loversleaper]

Eugene, I don't think you are looking at the bigger picture here and are simply dictating what has been said from SI towers. They already acknowledged that this move isn't to prevent piracy, but to delay it. It's no secret that piracy happens in places where people can't afford to pay for the game, you seriously and honestly think that these people are going to pay all of a sudden because we all moved over to Steam? Who are you trying to kid, man? If the mojority of downloadable piracy was here in the "western countries" then SI/SEGA might have a point, but it simply is not the case.

If you want to combat piracy, then there are ways to do it - but forcing people to use Steam is just way out there. I seriously think that the reasons comming out simply don't hold water....

[Lewisjoe]

Is there a reason you are so against downloading a small program, which uses very little resources, other than out of pig headed stubbornness to change?

but why dont you know? youre the 3rd person from sega/si in 4 pages whove said that!

what are you lot not telling us? i know youre not that silly

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I really don't see the problem here. So you have to install another program to play the game. So what? Would you rather everyone be able to play pirate copies of the game? If they just said "You know what, download pirate copies of the game if you like. We don't mind losing all our paying customers" would that make you happier than them trying to stop piracy of the game and keep their business going. If I have to download a program which prevents others from playing illegal copies of the game, I don't mind doing so. It could be worse. It could have been a program we have to pay to use, or some obscure program that nobody has ever heard of. At least Steam is a well known and widely used program, which is reliable. For all the rage quiters, stop being so shallow minded. I bet the majority of you have never even used Steam before. It's nowhere near as bad as you all make out. Infact it's not bad at all.

That is very good advice.

[Smurf]

I don't think you see the bigger picture either.

If 1/4 of the people that pirate the game - if they buy it that's double the sales for SI.

That still leaves 3/4 of that category still pirating the game.

There's people who pre-ordered it in the past, that cancelled their pre-order when the pirated versions became available.

Given the sharp rise in pre-order sales (according to SI and Amazon et al online stores (Steam included)) since it was announced that FM would be available through Steam - it's pretty clear that it's working.

You can choose not to believe what SI let you know. Which they are under no obligation to do or let you know anything. They do so to keep you informed. They have no reason to lie to you. As if it came out they were lying they would very quickly lose a lot of customers.

Like it or not - it's working. Regardless whether you choose to believe that or not.

[themadsheep2001]

Okay thx.

I'll leave WoW out of it then. Only FM2012 then

Also the survey that collect information is optional and anonymous, here is the kind of information it collects

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

[Loversleaper]

I don't think you see the bigger picture either.

If 1/4 of the people that pirate the game - if they buy it that's double the sales for SI.

That still leaves 3/4 of that category still pirating the game.

There's people who pre-ordered it in the past, that cancelled their pre-order when the pirated versions became available.

Given the sharp rise in pre-order sales (according to SI and Amazon et al online stores (Steam included)) since it was announced that FM would be available through Steam - it's pretty clear that it's working.

You can choose not to believe what SI let you know. Which they are under no obligation to do or let you know anything. They do so to keep you informed. They have no reason to lie to you. As if it came out they were lying they would very quickly lose a lot of customers.

Like it or not - it's working. Regardless whether you choose to believe that or not.

What are the statistics of where the piracy is downloaded from generally? Does anybody know? I think it's time for a wake up call, statistics are fine but when dealing with these things you have to take various things into account. The clothing industry always have companies copying their products - but still we are not all forced to go purchase marked brands in Harrods. The arguments regarding why we have to use Steam simply is not feasible...

[pigfacemonkeyman]

cd's or preferably vinyl

Careful now, you don't want to be burned at the stake.

[Smurf]

The statistics are with SI, Sega and Steam. They won't release those figures. And you can take that up with them.

Your analogy is just wrong. You wouldn't go into a store and steal a pair of Levi's. Nor would you go into a game shop and steal FM.

Piracy is just wrong. It's stealing.

And this is why Steam was introduced as a delay to piracy.

[Kriss]

What are the statistics of where the piracy is downloaded from generally? Does anybody know? I think it's time for a wake up call, statistics are fine but when dealing with these things you have to take various things into account. The clothing industry always have companies copying their products - but still we are not all forced to go purchase marked brands in Harrods. The arguments regarding why we have to use Steam simply is not feasible...

I have this strange feeling that a company the size of Sega might well have a handle on this, especially as they collaborate with the other big companies on piracy and also use the services of specialist companies in the field.

[Smurf]

I have this strange feeling that a company the size of Sega might well have a handle on this

Really? They only have headquarters in Japan, North America, Europe, Australia and Korea???

Do you think anyone in those areas would know about this stuff

[Kriss]

Really? They only have headquarters in Japan, North America, Europe, Australia and Korea???

Do you think anyone in those areas would know about this stuff

A trifle more than us on this forum I'd hazard a guess;)

[Smurf]

Guessing is not good enough. I want numbers on my desk by the end of the day. You have 6 minutes.

[Loversleaper]

The statistics are with SI, Sega and Steam. They won't release those figures. And you can take that up with them.

Your analogy is just wrong. You wouldn't go into a store and steal a pair of Levi's. Nor would you go into a game shop and steal FM.

Piracy is just wrong. It's stealing.

And this is why Steam was introduced as a delay to piracy.

I simply fail to understand that you can't see that the vast majority of piracy is by people who can't afford the game, you are basically suggesting that delaying piracy will magically make these people pay for a product they simply can't and won't pay for no matter what. You don't think that these people can wait a couple of days (if that)? Copying is and always has been too easy, this move to Steam won't change that at all...

I, personally, don't mind using Steam because I am in the fortunate section that has all the necessary things at hand to play the game (same reason none of the defenders of Steam can see the problem)...

[pigfacemonkeyman]

@ x42bn6

I appreciate that you have security concerns with Steam, I do not share this view but for the sake of the discussion we shall assume that Steam can & does gain access to any number of files on your PC that are not required for the purpose of playing any given game.

My question is that as someone who has presented themself as a rather tech savvy individual are you not in a position to enhance the security or encryption protocol's on files that contain sensitive personal information?

Also for the sake of discussion let's assume that I am Johnny knows-nowt about computers, what do I do about my concerns?

[Loversleaper]

I have this strange feeling that a company the size of Sega might well have a handle on this, especially as they collaborate with the other big companies on piracy and also use the services of specialist companies in the field.

So, that means that all games on todays market are moving over to Steam to activate?

[Kriss]

I simply fail to understand that you can't see that the vast majority of piracy is by people who can't afford the game, you are basically suggesting that delaying piracy will magically make these people pay for a product they simply can't and won't pay for no matter what. You don't think that these people can wait a couple of days (if that)? Copying is and always has been too easy, this move to Steam won't change that at all...

I, personally, don't mind using Steam because I am in the fortunate section that has all the necessary things at hand to play the game (same reason none of the defenders of Steam can see the problem)...

You're stating that as a fact when you have no evidence that actually proves it, "can't afford"? needs qualifying and quantifying before you can use it as evidence, you're going on a feeling not evidence.

[Kriss]

So, that means that all games on todays market are moving over to Steam to activate?

Most of the major ones already have, some have gone down even worse roads (Ubisoft is an obvious one)

[data6930]

They have to draw the line somewhere. SI listens to its community far more than a large number of companies, but there is a limit to the amount of involvement the consumer can have in some decisions, after all, they say the camel is a horse designed by committee (or in this case community )

I don't think SI listens to the community as much as they used to.

[Loversleaper]

Most of the major ones already have, some have gone down even worse roads (Ubisoft is an obvious one)

And how is this working out for them?...

There are probably no pirated versions of these games anymore, am I correct?

[data6930]

I think it is very naive of sega to think that by putting the game on the steam platform it will delay piracy and thus instead of waiting a few days for the pirate version to surface they will buy the original!! Come on surely you can't be that daft!

It is a gamble to do what there doing and whilst I am not buying this years game I can only hope that they at least give people other options to play the game next year, if not, I think sales will drop even further.

Miles openly admits that he accepts they will lose some long standing customers with the decision about steam, has he and SI forgot that it is the long standing customers who have put the FM series where it is now??

[afced7]

I don't think SI listens to the community as much as they used to.

I'd say that's an accurate point, but its a bit ridiculous that people are suggesting that the community doesn't have a role to play in the development of the game any more.

[manyBuddhas]

Thinking you own the game because you have it on CD is still a common misconception. You don't 'own' the vast majority of software (including Football Manager)--you licence it. That's what the EULA's about. Again, don't really care for the Steam, but will buy FM 2012.

[afced7]

I think it is very naive of sega to think that by putting the game on the steam platform it will delay piracy and thus instead of waiting a few days for the pirate version to surface they will buy the original!!

That's not what they're suggesting, Eugene summed up their aim pretty well here:

Basically - what happened in previous years was that the game was made available by piracy prior to being officially released. This meant people cancelled their pre-orders. Maybe not all of them for the same reason.

What has happened since they announced the game will only be available through authentication on Steam they have seen a significant percentage rise in pre-orders.

So yeh, it's working. They have more pre-orders than ever before. And they don't expect that many cancellations before the official launch.