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SFraser

Shoots With Power versus Places Shots

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It's not the most utterly vital topic in the world and it is a topic that regularly gets discussed anyway so alot of people will be comfortable in how they train these PPM's, but I wanted to give my 2 cents on this topic based on my experience of using these PPM's for different players playing in different roles.

The general concensus is that with lower Finishing accuracy, blasting the ball is more likely to beat the goalkeeper. With higher Finishing placing the ball is more likely to find a corner the goalkeeper can't reach. That's a completely sound point of view.

However I think that there is more tactical depth that can be drawn out of these PPM's. I believe that to get maximum results from use of these PPM's within tactics it is vitally important to consider a players position as well as his ability.

No Keeper In The World Would Have Saved That Shot!

That's what you get with "Shoots With Power" and it says a lot. What it says is that within a reasonable distance, if this player can get the ball between the sticks and somewhere other than straight at the goalkeeper then it is hitting the back of the net.

Anyone that has ever kicked a ball knows that hitting a ball with power reduces accuracy. It's a great way to score penalties, it's an extremely difficult way of scoring from the corner of the box.

My point here is that while a player that blasts the ball has a slightly increased risk of missing, a player that shoots from central positions has a much higher chance of hitting the target than a player that shoots from wide. A player that shoots with power has a much higher chance of scoring if the ball is on target.

Excellent finishers that play centrally and close to goal are much more likely to score if they shoot with power. Their chance of missing is slightly increased, their chance of beating the goalkeeper is hugely increased.

For full chances, half chances, or complete snapshot chancer chances in a reasonably central position, if your player is a decent finisher and shoots with power then it is very likely to go in. Think Alan Shearer.

He Showed You Don't Have To Blast The Ball!

Scoring a goal is ultimately about putting the ball in the net. Putting the ball in the net requires accuracy to get it between the sticks, and enough pace on the shot so that it beats the goalkeeper. When close to goal and with a good angle power is king. When faced with a difficult angle and at a bit of range then what is needed is accuracy. Power will make the already increased risk of missing even higher due to the angle. And due to the angle there are only a few places the ball can go to beat the goalkeeper anyway, because he will naturally "cover the angles".

When approaching a goalkeeper at an angle he has the maximum level of advantage. Both sides of the goal are vastly reduced in size compared to his size and position. The actual availability of goalscoring areas is tiny. This requires not simply accuracy to score, but a shot that uses the instep to curl the ball because a goalkeeper can easilly reach a straight shot aiming at uncovered corners.

Further, when the ball has been played across the box quickly to someone lurking at the back post, catching the keeper out and presenting a goal on a plate, what you want is not a power shot but a carefully aimed and accurate shot into the net. The goalkeeper will never reach it and it is highly unlikely to miss.

"Places Shots" is for players that regularly get into goalscoring positions but from awkward angles or at the back post.

Conclusions

While you can base the PPM's "Shoots With Power" and "Places Shots" on Finishing accuracy, my point is that to fully take advantage of these PPM's and of players in certain roles is to base these PPM's on the positions payers regularly take up.

Players that regularly get into the box in a central position should be considered for "Shoots With Power".

Players that regularly get into the box in wide positions should be considered for "Place Shots".

Players that regularly shoot from outside the box should be considered for "Shoots With Power".

This is not an absolute rule, it is an additional and important factor for you to consider when dealing with players that regularly hit shots.

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Good read. But what about Cristiano Ronaldo who is an inside forward, which means he gets into the box in wide positions but has Shoots with Power, or Messi who is a trequarista, central attacker or an attacking midfielder which means that gets into the box in a central position but has Places Shots?

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Yes, good read. I would like to add, that according to my experience, for the PPM "Places Shots" players obviously need to have decent finishing but the technique attribute is nearly equally important.

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I generally agree with power vs placing when shooting from central vs wide positions. But I think if a player is often one on one with the keeper, it is no longer necessary to shoot with power. Then there are more options such as placing, dribbling around the keeper or a lob.

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Sfraser - isn't teaching these PPMs to players contrary to your usual approach of letting the best players make up their own minds about what approach to taken in a given situtation? I could see such PPMs being extremely useful on players who had the ability to get into scoring situations but were lacking some of the mental attributes to see and choose the best option but on the elite players wouldn't it be better to have no tendencies towards one finishing technique versus the other?

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Sfraser - isn't teaching these PPMs to players contrary to your usual approach of letting the best players make up their own minds about what approach to taken in a given situtation? I could see such PPMs being extremely useful on players who had the ability to get into scoring situations but were lacking some of the mental attributes to see and choose the best option but on the elite players wouldn't it be better to have no tendencies towards one finishing technique versus the other?

From my experience if a player has neither, they won't do either. I have never had a player get the commentary that you normally see from these PPM (typical placed shot, etc.) if the player didn't have the PPM

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Well you won't see 'typical placed shot' because it isn't typical of the player even if they do score with a placed shot. With Hazard I have had him score numerous shots with Villarreal where he has had a 'fierce shot for the top corner' or something similar but doesn't have shoots with power PPM. He also tries to place the ball around the keeper when one on one so they do look to place/blast shots without the PPM. I think the PPM just modifies a players preference to one or the other.

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Is there any link between Strenght attribute and PPM ShWthPwr? In other words -- wouldn't be useless such PPM if a player has Strenght 3 or 5?

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I have had problems getting my strikers to train either place shot, round keeper or lob.... Even though one would think that their position should encourage them to learn "special" finishing moves.... I don't know if that has been changed in the 11.3.

Would it mean that a player with poor finishing and/or long shot attributes would blast every shot miles over or wide if he learned "shoots with power"?

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With the 11.2 patch, I had a striker with (very) good finishing and technique, who was used as a poacher. In this central role, he became even more effective after he learned the 'places shots' PPM. It isn't that often that a player doesn't approach the goal at an angle.

Also, it seems that a striker which turns around his defender, blastt the ball wide or over when he has the power PPM. At least, this seems to happen all too often with Rooney in my new 11.3 save.

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Like the others, I'm a bit confused. When you come in at an angle like an Inside Forward, you could curl it around the 'keeper but blasting it also makes sense, see Ronaldo. Whereas when you approach from the middle, you have more to aim at so you can be more precise. Surely?

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Like the others, I'm a bit confused. When you come in at an angle like an Inside Forward, you could curl it around the 'keeper but blasting it also makes sense, see Ronaldo. Whereas when you approach from the middle, you have more to aim at so you can be more precise. Surely?

That's very difficult to pull of though and by placing it in a corner there is less chance of the ball simply hitting the keeper who covers or missing the target altogether. Also, if you have more to aim at there is a bigger chance of scoring even if you miss the exact spot you were aiming at.

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Actually central chances are the hardest to convert because if the keeper can close you down he covers the whole of the goal making it nearly impossible to score.

When coming from an angle, the keeper has to get closer to you to cover both corners.

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I have never really noticed before until last match how much of an advantage shooting with power is from a central position, especially when not clean through on goal. Van Persie just scored two goals by smacking them into the inside netting after getting half a yard on his defender at the edge of the box. If he placed the shot, they would have probably been gone wide or saved if not right in the corner of the goal.

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Actually central chances are the hardest to convert because if the keeper can close you down he covers the whole of the goal making it nearly impossible to score.

When coming from an angle, the keeper has to get closer to you to cover both corners.

That is precisely physically false.

Draw some examples out to see. The wider the angle, the smaller the target (a 'cone', from the striker to each post). A keeper at the same distance from the striker at each angle fills the same space, so fills more of the space proportionally the greater the angle.

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I disagree because it is not that simple. With chances in the middle and the keeper coming out with the keeper at full stretch the can reach a shot at either post. Whereas when coming from an angle (not a steep angle) the player can use spin to effectively massively increase the possible scoring angle much more easily. By doing this it can put the ball out of reach of the keeper.

So geometrically shots from the centre mean a larger goal to aim at but the angle of shot may only be 15 degrees to either post whereas from an angle it could be 35 degrees to the far post which could really be made to 45 degrees with spin. This means that the striker can actually shoot to miss the goal and still score. If the keeper moves across to try to cover this angle, then the striker can blast the ball at the near post

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That is precisely physically false.

Draw some examples out to see. The wider the angle, the smaller the target (a 'cone', from the striker to each post). A keeper at the same distance from the striker at each angle fills the same space, so fills more of the space proportionally the greater the angle.

bahahahahaha greatest.flashback.ever.

I played equivalent to US semi-pro (college scholarship) a few belt sizes ago and my Couch was this young'sh (mid-40's) stereotypical British guy who was a striker at Derby a few years earlier (tore his ACL)...the only coaching our keppers got from him was "GET BIG SON!!! GET BIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGG"

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Guest

Andy Carroll has the worst possible combination of PPMs, in that he shoots early and shoots with power. It's fine if he's in the box, but the amount of chances he's blazing over the bar from 20 yards or so is really starting to give me a headache.

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I think when you place the ball or blast it from a central position, they both have an equally good chance of scoring depending on attributes of course. I don't think it's a good idea to blast it if you're coming at an angle though. You have a smaller target to hit, so placing the shot would be better.

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I wonder what would happen if a player had both 'places shots' and 'shoots with power' PPMs....like if you were to give a player both in the editor....

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I wonder what would happen if a player had both 'places shots' and 'shoots with power' PPMs....like if you were to give a player both in the editor....

I don't know anything about the editor, but assuming that's even possible, I think the player will do one or the other.

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Great thread as usual SFraser.

I've definitely been looking to try and exploit Shoots with Power lately in my Arsenal save. It can be an incredibly frustrating, yet absolutely brilliant, PPM. As long as you know where to allow it.

I play with Van Persie up top in a deep role, I use classic tactics preferentially so think of him as a Deep FWD/Trequartista. He's set up to drop into the hole to exchange passes with Fabregas/Wilshere/Nasri and co. but also to drag defenders out of the forward line, allowing Nasri and Arsharvin to get in behind. Not a classic False Nine role but very similar. Anyway, back to the point! I find Shoots with Power quite an advantageous PPM for RVP simply because he's getting a lot of ball around the top of the 18 yard box. Thunderous shots from here are seen as a bonus, they often leave the keeper unsighted and he's picking the ball out of the net before he's seen RVP shoot. Conversely, my wide players Nasri and Arsharvin are being trained to Place Shots, as they are the players I expect to be through on goal most often. Hence I don't want them to waste their chances.

I think of it like this, if it's a CCC I want him to place it. If it's not, I want him to take the leather of it. So my system is set up this way.

I also play a slightly different system, same formation (4-2-3-1) where Theo plays upfront in a modfified Poacher role. I set up everyone behind him as a feeding service if you will, where they attempt to use his pace to release him on goal. So in this scenario, despite Theo being central to goal he's likely to be 1v1. Thus, I want him to Place Shots and make the most of the opportunity.

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Interesting read! So most (all?) striker PPMs have pros/cons, including the round/lob keeper, etc.

But i can't think of a con to have a striker learn "beat the offside trap". Am i missing something obvious?

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If he has low off the ball movement he might find himself often in the offside so potentially good play will fail and possession will be lost.

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Interesting read! So most (all?) striker PPMs have pros/cons, including the round/lob keeper, etc.

But i can't think of a con to have a striker learn "beat the offside trap". Am i missing something obvious?

Anticipation and decisions will decide how successful he is at breaking the offside trap. I'm sure teamwork will also count.

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The correct attributes i took as given, they should also be considered for the other PPMs, according to this thread. I rather ment it as follows:

"Shoots with power" and "Places Shots" PPM could result in the striker to chose the wrong type of shot in a certain situation, as suggested in this thread, thus a pro/contra. Training one of those PPMs influences a player's decision. When it might have been a better idea to place the shot, the PPM overrides and he shoots with power instead (and misses), or vice versa.

So even after reading opinions here, i feel more comfortable not training these PPM. The player should decide according to the situation.

But i can't think of a situation where trying to beat an offside trap would be a wrong decision (given the player has the right attributes).

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The correct attributes i took as given, they should also be considered for the other PPMs, according to this thread. I rather ment it as follows:

"Shoots with power" and "Places Shots" PPM could result in the striker to chose the wrong type of shot in a certain situation, as suggested in this thread, thus a pro/contra. Training one of those PPMs influences a player's decision. When it might have been a better idea to place the shot, the PPM overrides and he shoots with power instead (and misses), or vice versa.

So even after reading opinions here, i feel more comfortable not training these PPM. The player should decide according to the situation.

But i can't think of a situation where trying to beat an offside trap would be a wrong decision (given the player has the right attributes).

Okay, I understand what you're saying. The only scenario I can think of where trying to beat the offside trap is not a great idea, is when the opposition isn't playing an offside trap. If teams against you are playing very deep or shutting up shop, having that ppm would be a problem. There won't be an offside trap to break (even though he'll probably still try) and it'll make him easier to mark since he'll sit right on top of a defender.

That's the only scenario I can think of. Otherwise, given the right attribute, it's a good ppm to have imo.

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Still using FM09, but: I find Shoots with power has a higher chance of producing out-of-nowhere type goals; the player just needs a decent shooting position and let rip. It is definitely more useful a bit further out (edge of area or farther). Places shots is prettier to the eye and more effective inside the box.

This is contrary to SFraser's "When close to goal and with a good angle power is king". I think, when close to the goal, if you place the shot accurately, the keeper will have no time to react anyway, however slow the shot is. Powering it in will not help if your shot is straight at the keeper.

So, if you have a relatively low level team, get Shoots with power: you're much more likely to fluke one in. If your team regularly produces chances for players inside the box, places shots may be more appropriate.

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Guest nik1313

What SFraser has managed to do with his threads, is guide me to think straightforward to my team's and oppoment's strengths and weaknesses.

I realized for example, that touchline instructions is about my team's and oppoment's strengths and weaknesses rather than whatever "click&go" decisions that i, as manager, should make.

example: i choose to stay on feet effectively when my team in the pitch has strength and marking abilities more than takling abilities. And many more.

In the same way, for places shots vs shoots with power

I use a striker(or even a winger as a striker) ,for some period in the match atleast, with "shoots with power" against a GK with poor reflexes. And "places shots" striker against a GK with poor positioning,agility,jumping.

in any case, isnt this used irl with Cristiano Ronaldo as a striker many times?

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Good thread, in terms of both the OP and the quality of advice given by other users.

I wonder what would happen if a player had both 'places shots' and 'shoots with power' PPMs....like if you were to give a player both in the editor....

I have done this before. Essentially, they behave much like a normal player, but the messages ("he hit that with real venom" or "typical placed shot from X") can be triggered for either type of shot.

Is there any link between Strenght attribute and PPM ShWthPwr? In other words -- wouldn't be useless such PPM if a player has Strenght 3 or 5?

No, there isn't. Strength is the ability to exert a force on an opponent. It does not relate to shot power. Think of someone like Pedro Mendes or Steven Reid- both are/were rather diminutive players, but they had exceptionally strong shots. Give me the choice between standing in front of a Pedro Mendes shot and a Christopher Samba shot and I'd take Mendes every time :p

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I used to have tremendous success with 'Places Shots' on FM10, so I've always steered clear of 'Shoots with Power', but I have got a regen striker who fits the OP's description for a power-shot exactly, most of his chances come from around 6 yards out. Might see if he'll learn to shoot with power and see how it goes.

Good thread this :thup:

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I wonder what would happen if a player had both 'places shots' and 'shoots with power' PPMs....like if you were to give a player both in the editor....

I wouldn't swear to it in court, but I'm almost certain I came across a striker with both these attributes during a search in FM10. I wondered at the time how this would work out but the player wasn't for me (wish I'd made a note of his name). Has anyone seen this and how good/bad it is?

I've never been able to get a player to learn both, or teach either of them to someone with "lobs keeper" PPM.

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Andy Carroll has the worst possible combination of PPMs, in that he shoots early and shoots with power. It's fine if he's in the box, but the amount of chances he's blazing over the bar from 20 yards or so is really starting to give me a headache.

I am currently in my athletico madrid pre-season and Forlan (clinical finisher) has "try first time shots", "long shots" and "shoots with power".

Regarding attributes, Really good at finishing (18), good at composure (16), off the ball (16) and anticipation (16), very decent at first touch (15) and technique (14).

When he is into the box with just a little space to work into, he is absolutely lethal within reasonnable distance, he is blasting the ball with power in the net, at the same he has still an accurate finishing. With first time shots, as he has good anticipation, decent first touch and technique, a fair share of his shots are well taken and on target as well.

Regarding your Andy Carroll issue, I suggest (even if I think you have already done it) set long shot to rarely, and tryig to put him as close as goal as possible with an attack duty, Forlan is an on the higher mentaly, everything to mixed except long shot, a poacher role to tone down a bit his creative freedom.

I don't know what Carroll's flair, creativity and teamwork are, Forlan has 15 flair, creativity 13 and 14 teamwork, so naturallly he has almost identical tendencies to go for either flamboyant or team option, this is where creative freedom come into play as flair modifier. With a poacher role, creative freedom is a bit lower than an advanced forward role for example, and as a result long shots, which are considered as "flamboyant" options are less likely to be choosen.

As you said he was taking long shot from range a bit too often even with a rather average creativity, which means he doesn't see all shots options hopefully. Lowering long shot to rarely and tone down creative freedom make waste less passing opportunity when he is not close to goal.

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i think shoots with power or places shots is more about which foot is being used and from which side for example a right footer will have more luck trying to curl one in from the left side of goal but if the right footer was on the right side it would be easier to smash it across the keeper than to place it near post or to try and bend it round the keeper with the outside of the boot

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My way of thinking:

shoots with power is something you want on strikers who cant score, e.g. have low technique and low finishing. The ppm will make their finishing more effective.

Places shots is useful for strikers with high finisching and technique, which makes their shots even more effective. The last thing you want is a striker with high finishing and technique with shoots with power... hell start wasting more chances.

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My way of thinking:

shoots with power is something you want on strikers who cant score, e.g. have low technique and low finishing. The ppm will make their finishing more effective.

Places shots is useful for strikers with high finisching and technique, which makes their shots even more effective. The last thing you want is a striker with high finishing and technique with shoots with power... hell start wasting more chances.

Not really true. Just think of Van Persie. One of the best strikers in the world right now and half of that is because he possesses great shot power and accuracy. His shot power gives keepers less chance to react and pull of a save while his accuracy means if you give him half a yard in the box it often goes in since the keeper can't get to the shot.

My preference tends to be more to the type of shots the striker will take, as well as the striker's attributes. For example if you striker regularly spins his defender can get half a yard then shoots early, then shoots with power would be good because the GK would be in a poor position to make a save due to the early shot and the power will make a well directed shot unsaveable. However, if your striker is regularly played through on goal one on one then perhaps places shot would be better.

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I'd agree that this PPM 'war' is more about the type of shots that your player will make most often, and their general position when shooting.

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Not really true. Just think of Van Persie. One of the best strikers in the world right now and half of that is because he possesses great shot power and accuracy. His shot power gives keepers less chance to react and pull of a save while his accuracy means if you give him half a yard in the box it often goes in since the keeper can't get to the shot.

My preference tends to be more to the type of shots the striker will take, as well as the striker's attributes. For example if you striker regularly spins his defender can get half a yard then shoots early, then shoots with power would be good because the GK would be in a poor position to make a save due to the early shot and the power will make a well directed shot unsaveable. However, if your striker is regularly played through on goal one on one then perhaps places shot would be better.

yeah IRL that might be the case... but this is how the match engine works imo... i find strikers with high finishing score less if they have shoots with power. especially from inside the box.

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Just been thinking.. Does the shoot with power apply with heading the ball? As you can place a header and you can power them, just interested whether that'll be affected by 'Shoots with Power' (Probably not but I'll keep me hopes up!)

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yeah IRL that might be the case... but this is how the match engine works imo... i find strikers with high finishing score less if they have shoots with power. especially from inside the box.

That is precisely what my second paragraph states. If the type of shot your striker regularly takes is from inside the box where placing is more advantageous then yeah placing shots is a better PPM for him. If he is just spinning his defender or taking half chances from the edge of the box then shooting with power is better in my opinion.

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So in theory if we had ideal player, '20' everywhere, what would be the best PPMs in shotting? Or maybe the best option would be not giving any PPMs?

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Yeah, the ideal player would be one who you would leave completely to his own devices and due to his perfect decision making anticipation etc... he would the correct choice (almost) every time, without PPM's.

However, the point of PPM's are is that even a perfect player in real life would have preferred ways of ways of utilising their skill set, but no footballer is ever perfect, so they all have to make up for deficiencies and therefore have preferred tendencies.

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Yeah, I think about making some kind of experiment... But there are few PPM for shooting (places shots, shots with power, tries first time shot, shot from distance, curls ball) and counting combinations of them we get a lot of options.

And what about PPM that are no longer in the game but are in FMRTE? For example: Luka Modric has 'uses outside of foot', Neymar has 'tries tricks' - Are those PPMs hidden but working or what?

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