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Ched

Critique of Board Confidence - So much potential...wasted.

102 posts in this topic

Right, this is going to be my last thread that is merely pointing out what is wrong and how i'd fix it. Mainly because i've stopped playing the game (22 shots on target to my team, 2 shots on target to the opposition, both from outside the area...final score...2-0 and you don't have to ask who to, until the one-on-one comedy is fixed i'm leaving this game alone).

Anyway...where was i...ah, board confidence.

Now let me start off by sayiing, when i started the demo of FM08 and saw it for the first time, i thought it was one of the bext features i'd ever seen. I'm all for it, however, it needs to be fixed, so that it has some reflection on real life.

Ok then, what's wrong with it...here goes:

1) Long term performance and loyalty. The only game i've taken past 5 seasons on FM08 got stopped last month. The reason for this is that after winning 5 consecutive leagues and 3 consecutive champions leagues i failed to win the league for 2 successive seasons, the board considered this a complete lack of respect to their long term goals and sacked me. Now, i know SI will no doubt trawl up an example of when this has happened IRL, nut i merely state the examples of ferguson and wenger - if a manager wins trophies consistently, they aren't just sacked for finishing runner up twice rather than winning.

On FM07, if i didn't win for 3-4 seasons, then i would be worried, on FM08 if i fail to win the league once i'm waiting for my P45. FM07 had the PERFECT balance of expectation and loyalty, FM08 has ruined this.

2) Cups. Cup competitions, by their very nature, require a degree of luck. If i get arsenal away in the first round, the odds of me reaching the final would plummet. In FM08, the board don't give a toss.

The expectation of reaching a final is laughable - again look at ANY club in the top teir of europe and see how many fans despair after their team doesn't reach a final, if they were knocked out away to a better opponent, or even if they were just unlucky. The fact that not long ago arsenal reached their FIRST EVER champions league semi final pretty much proves my point.

So what should SI do? Firstly, make goals flexible. If i get man utd away in the first round my goal should reflect this. If i have 30 shots on target, the opponent has one, and i lose, the board confidence for that competition should reflect this.

Cups require luck. Confidence should be a reflection of this.

3) Youth Players. My main gripe with the confidence mechanism. IRL i couldn't name EVERY youth player my team sign. And yet, in FM, the fans not only know all, but expect them all to perform at a first team level. What a joke.

Take chelseas new man, franco di santo (or something like that) if he hasn't made anything of himself in 5 years, maybe then i'll give a toss, but if in the next 12 months, he makes a few sub appearances, does ok, i'm not going to be asking for grants resignation!

I have gotten to the point where i dare not give a new youth player first team experience for the first 9months as the fans will hate me unless he scores regularly!

Many players like to sign youth, all the board confidence feature has done has made signing youth similar to walking through a mine field. It could work out ok, but it's more likely to go horribly wrong.

So, how to fix this? Firstly, when fans consider a new signing, they should factor in A) - how many games he's played and B) - squad status. If the player is a "Hot prospect" then they should not judge him on his current form. I thought this was pretty damn obvious, but SI clearly didn't think of it.

4) Charity Shield. Had an amusing network game with one of my mates. After winning the treble with chelsea, the board decided to say they were pleased, but that the fans were very dissappointed with losing the charity shield and that it shouldn't happen again.

I had to think for a good few minutes before i could remember if chelsea had won or lost the CS IRL this season. Do SI seriously think that ANYBODY would care about the charity shield if the team won EVERYTHING ELSE????

A fairly simple one to solve this, drastically decrease the weighting given to the charity shield.

5) League Cup. I want an option to be able to use the league cup to exercise my youth players. The board telling me i must make the final is laughable. Again, i give the example of man utd and arsenal, particularly the latter, as neither are going to win the league cup this season, but nobody except the youth players gives a damn. The fans may be upset at losing 5-1 to spurs, but the fact that they won't win the league cup is irrelevant.

A fairly obvious point this, but again one which SI either didn't consider or deemed too much work.

6) Finances. A couple of problems here. Firstly, previous debts aren't considered. Start a game as man utd, if you spend up to your budget, and buy players, you can often end up in debt due to interest repayments. The board should consider previous loans before having a moan about the clubs financial state. (if the glazers are going to stick all their debt on me why are they surprised lol)

Secondly, this is mostly related to lower league clubs, with my vauxhall motors gam, i have NEVER bought a player, i have NEVER gone anywhere near over my wage budget, yet i am £500k in debt and soon to get the sack.

If a player keeps within his bidgets he should not be penalised because of the bank balance. It is not the users fault that the idiotic chairman AI can't figure out that a particular wage budget is going to bankrupt him. At this rate i'm going to have to get my accountant to check my fm save to see if i can afford to sign a bloody striker!

7) New Signings. They just aren't given enough time. Take the example of thierry henry. If memory serves he was not an immeddiate hit at arsenal. Ditto Didier drogba, wright-phillips, fabregas etc etc etc. Basically in FM, the player needs to be a wonder, in his first 5 games or you're in trouble.

I know people would say that fans IRL make similar judgements about players (jimbo pointed one such instance out to me) but MANY player are given time to get used to a new country (sheva was given bloody ages and still turned out useless!) in FM it just doesn't happen. Either they're an instant success, or the board moan at you about them - it's just not right.

Similarly, i've had a youth player that was slagged off become a genius 3 seasons later, and this isn't considered anything by the board. IRL if someone signed a premier league top scorer for £50k the fans would be more than a little impressed.

8) Selling Players. I thought i hadn't noticed this so i experimented. I sold lampard for £2m. And nobody noticed. It used to be the case that fans would moan (and rightly so, sometimes...) about sales, similarly they would applaud some sales, in FM08 they just don't give a damn. IRL fans care A LOT MORE about selling some big name players than signing a poor youth player.

It's just not right SI, please sort it.

9) And this is a bit silly.

Right that pretty much sums it up. There are various other issues i may have forgotten (and some that have been fixed - e.g. getting sacked for overachieving) but i think most of it is in there.

Now i don't for one minute expect this to be fixed for 8.0.2 (all i want is the one-on-one farce to be fixed for that please), this thread is aimed at a more long term point of view, i woud expect this to be remedied for FM09.

This feature has tons of potential, it just isn't finished, which would pretty much sum up my review of the entire FM08 package. Whoever decided this game was a fair reflection of SI's ability and desire, and that it was acceptable to ship in such a state should be hanging their head in shame.

Anyway, i'm done moaning. As ever useful comments (or merely thumbs up - they make me feel warm and fuzzy inside) would be appreciated.

Cheers

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Right, this is going to be my last thread that is merely pointing out what is wrong and how i'd fix it. Mainly because i've stopped playing the game (22 shots on target to my team, 2 shots on target to the opposition, both from outside the area...final score...2-0 and you don't have to ask who to, until the one-on-one comedy is fixed i'm leaving this game alone).

Anyway...where was i...ah, board confidence.

Now let me start off by sayiing, when i started the demo of FM08 and saw it for the first time, i thought it was one of the bext features i'd ever seen. I'm all for it, however, it needs to be fixed, so that it has some reflection on real life.

Ok then, what's wrong with it...here goes:

1) Long term performance and loyalty. The only game i've taken past 5 seasons on FM08 got stopped last month. The reason for this is that after winning 5 consecutive leagues and 3 consecutive champions leagues i failed to win the league for 2 successive seasons, the board considered this a complete lack of respect to their long term goals and sacked me. Now, i know SI will no doubt trawl up an example of when this has happened IRL, nut i merely state the examples of ferguson and wenger - if a manager wins trophies consistently, they aren't just sacked for finishing runner up twice rather than winning.

On FM07, if i didn't win for 3-4 seasons, then i would be worried, on FM08 if i fail to win the league once i'm waiting for my P45. FM07 had the PERFECT balance of expectation and loyalty, FM08 has ruined this.

2) Cups. Cup competitions, by their very nature, require a degree of luck. If i get arsenal away in the first round, the odds of me reaching the final would plummet. In FM08, the board don't give a toss.

The expectation of reaching a final is laughable - again look at ANY club in the top teir of europe and see how many fans despair after their team doesn't reach a final, if they were knocked out away to a better opponent, or even if they were just unlucky. The fact that not long ago arsenal reached their FIRST EVER champions league semi final pretty much proves my point.

So what should SI do? Firstly, make goals flexible. If i get man utd away in the first round my goal should reflect this. If i have 30 shots on target, the opponent has one, and i lose, the board confidence for that competition should reflect this.

Cups require luck. Confidence should be a reflection of this.

3) Youth Players. My main gripe with the confidence mechanism. IRL i couldn't name EVERY youth player my team sign. And yet, in FM, the fans not only know all, but expect them all to perform at a first team level. What a joke.

Take chelseas new man, franco di santo (or something like that) if he hasn't made anything of himself in 5 years, maybe then i'll give a toss, but if in the next 12 months, he makes a few sub appearances, does ok, i'm not going to be asking for grants resignation!

I have gotten to the point where i dare not give a new youth player first team experience for the first 9months as the fans will hate me unless he scores regularly!

Many players like to sign youth, all the board confidence feature has done has made signing youth similar to walking through a mine field. It could work out ok, but it's more likely to go horribly wrong.

So, how to fix this? Firstly, when fans consider a new signing, they should factor in A) - how many games he's played and B) - squad status. If the player is a "Hot prospect" then they should not judge him on his current form. I thought this was pretty damn obvious, but SI clearly didn't think of it.

4) Charity Shield. Had an amusing network game with one of my mates. After winning the treble with chelsea, the board decided to say they were pleased, but that the fans were very dissappointed with losing the charity shield and that it shouldn't happen again.

I had to think for a good few minutes before i could remember if chelsea had won or lost the CS IRL this season. Do SI seriously think that ANYBODY would care about the charity shield if the team won EVERYTHING ELSE????

A fairly simple one to solve this, drastically decrease the weighting given to the charity shield.

5) League Cup. I want an option to be able to use the league cup to exercise my youth players. The board telling me i must make the final is laughable. Again, i give the example of man utd and arsenal, particularly the latter, as neither are going to win the league cup this season, but nobody except the youth players gives a damn. The fans may be upset at losing 5-1 to spurs, but the fact that they won't win the league cup is irrelevant.

A fairly obvious point this, but again one which SI either didn't consider or deemed too much work.

6) Finances. A couple of problems here. Firstly, previous debts aren't considered. Start a game as man utd, if you spend up to your budget, and buy players, you can often end up in debt due to interest repayments. The board should consider previous loans before having a moan about the clubs financial state. (if the glazers are going to stick all their debt on me why are they surprised lol)

Secondly, this is mostly related to lower league clubs, with my vauxhall motors gam, i have NEVER bought a player, i have NEVER gone anywhere near over my wage budget, yet i am £500k in debt and soon to get the sack.

If a player keeps within his bidgets he should not be penalised because of the bank balance. It is not the users fault that the idiotic chairman AI can't figure out that a particular wage budget is going to bankrupt him. At this rate i'm going to have to get my accountant to check my fm save to see if i can afford to sign a bloody striker!

7) New Signings. They just aren't given enough time. Take the example of thierry henry. If memory serves he was not an immeddiate hit at arsenal. Ditto Didier drogba, wright-phillips, fabregas etc etc etc. Basically in FM, the player needs to be a wonder, in his first 5 games or you're in trouble.

I know people would say that fans IRL make similar judgements about players (jimbo pointed one such instance out to me) but MANY player are given time to get used to a new country (sheva was given bloody ages and still turned out useless!) in FM it just doesn't happen. Either they're an instant success, or the board moan at you about them - it's just not right.

Similarly, i've had a youth player that was slagged off become a genius 3 seasons later, and this isn't considered anything by the board. IRL if someone signed a premier league top scorer for £50k the fans would be more than a little impressed.

8) Selling Players. I thought i hadn't noticed this so i experimented. I sold lampard for £2m. And nobody noticed. It used to be the case that fans would moan (and rightly so, sometimes...) about sales, similarly they would applaud some sales, in FM08 they just don't give a damn. IRL fans care A LOT MORE about selling some big name players than signing a poor youth player.

It's just not right SI, please sort it.

9) And this is a bit silly.

Right that pretty much sums it up. There are various other issues i may have forgotten (and some that have been fixed - e.g. getting sacked for overachieving) but i think most of it is in there.

Now i don't for one minute expect this to be fixed for 8.0.2 (all i want is the one-on-one farce to be fixed for that please), this thread is aimed at a more long term point of view, i woud expect this to be remedied for FM09.

This feature has tons of potential, it just isn't finished, which would pretty much sum up my review of the entire FM08 package. Whoever decided this game was a fair reflection of SI's ability and desire, and that it was acceptable to ship in such a state should be hanging their head in shame.

Anyway, i'm done moaning. As ever useful comments (or merely thumbs up - they make me feel warm and fuzzy inside) would be appreciated.

Cheers

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Couldn't agree more about the confidence feature. It is a great new feature but it just doesn't seem to be quite working in the way it should. I myself have reported this in the bugs forum before.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dafuge:

Couldn't agree more about the confidence feature. It is a great new feature but it just doesn't seem to be quite working in the way it should. I myself have reported this in the bugs forum before. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was basically a moaning post, but I actually rather enjoyed it. It's well-constructed, scathing without being pig-ignorant, and a number of obvious nails have been well and truly bopped on the head. Well done, I say. icon14.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dafuge:

Couldn't agree more about the confidence feature. It is a great new feature but it just doesn't seem to be quite working in the way it should. I myself have reported this in the bugs forum before. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was basically a moaning post, but I actually rather enjoyed it. It's well-constructed, scathing without being pig-ignorant, and a number of obvious nails have been well and truly bopped on the head. Well done, I say. icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol, most of my thread are thinly veiled moans - if SI haven't got the idea yet, FM08 has left me grumpy.

Although i do try and be constructive, all i want is them to fix the game, then the world will be a better place for all - and these forums can once again be home to discussions rather than gripes.

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I completely agree it needs a lot of work, but it is a new addition and will take a year or two to iron out the wrinkles.

All this sort of stuff has been logged and discussed.

If it's as bad next version, then you have cause to moan.

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It's a completely new implementation of an old feature so SI should be given time to sort it. Yes, I agree that in it's current state it's pretty much gone t*ts up (I too have experienced this when I was promoted twice in four seasons, getting the team to their highest EVER league finish on the way. Yet still my confidence remained at satisfied even though I am currently 6th in the league with a media prediction of 24th) and is unrealistic to a degree.

However, I have 100% confidence in SI to fix this, be it in a patch or new version, it will be fixed.

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Off topic for the moment but in responding to this thread I’ve noticed how atrocious the search function is on these forums. I tried using the advanced search option and it just kept freezing up.

Ched the one man critiquing machine icon_wink.gif

Back on topic I agree with everything you’ve said icon14.gif and I’ve posted my opinions on it in previous threads. Here’s some of the threads to add to the evidence that some people aren’t pleased with the lack of intelligence in board opinions. But as you noted after every point they seem like pretty obvious potential scenarios to code for which gives me the impression that this section of the code was put together at the last minute or just not vigorously tested (just my opinion).

Also the fact that these issues were raised even within the demo and were not adjusted for the patch suggests it is pretty low down on the list of priorities.

- Lack of judgement of opposition in cup competitions relative to expectations, as well as prioritising of competitions (check the date of this post and it gives you an idea of how far down the list of priorities this issue is, assuming this was noted by testers)

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/6232093943

- Board sending club into debt due to outlay on investment (stadiums/grounds keeping) and blaming the manager

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/8862035473

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/1142008373

- Board selling of players for low prices (relates to finances confidence)

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/2302070653

- Board judging managers based on financial situation created by predecessors:-http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4682086163

I wonder is there no way to create an extra bit of code that records the balance at the time a manager is hired and then compare the balance relative to this?

It could be a simple addition so the board effectively judge the balance as being at 0 at the moment the manager is hired. So take the current bank balance in the memory and add the balance at the time the manager is hired. Then use this value to evaluate financial performance. This could be applied only when a club is in the red to avoid potential problems when a human manager takes over at a club with a healthy balance.

Not sure if that makes sense in words so maybe a numerical example would better illustrate:-

Get offered and accept a job at Club A. At the time I accept their balance is -5m. The code checks if it is a negative value and if it is it records it. Say 1 month in the balance has increased to -2m. The board finance confidence code would instead make an evaluation of -2m -(-5m) = 3m, and then recognises that you have in fact contributed to generating 3m in profits since you took the job. Thus their statement in the confidence section might read 'Although the board is still concerned with the current balance, we are pleased with your efforts to reduce this and hope that you continue your frugal approach to managing the finances'. It could be made a little more complex and actually be assigned a % reduction of the debt and then the statement could have a range of emotions e.g. disappointed, pleased, delighted etc.

Or it could be stated at the time of the job offer that one of the expectations of the board is that the manager ensures that the club is running a positive balance within x number of years? It could be like the long term competition expectations. This way at least the human manager knows what to expect. Having never been in that situation myself I don't know if it is in the game already so if it is apologies.

The above paragraph might be how it would be implemented within the current system where the manager is blamed financially for decisions the board make (new stadiums in particular). In the case of ultra realism it could be an expectation that the manager meets a net transfer spend target so as to contribute to running down the debt.

Also relating to this is the budgets a particular chairman assigns. Sure their individual characteristics should reflect how large the budget is and how tightly they expect you to control it (pretty easily implemented I would think). But if you are under your wage budget by a reasonable percentage and have a positive cashflow from transfers then that should be enough to make any board happy with your financial impact on the club. Unless reducing the debt by a certain amount was part of your remit when accepting the job and your sales of players weren't sufficient.

- Fan/Board confidence in signings irrespective of your intentions with said signing, plus not being able to justify the signing to reduce their concerns. Also the lack of response from the board/fans when players are sold:-

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/8802075373

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Quality post Ched! icon14.gif

The board confidence is really unrealistic.

Ideal for cup games would be based on match by match goals instead of what it is now.

Maybe once in a while they could demand to reach a certain goal when your team didn't do well in the cups for some time.

But it's totally unacceptable to win everything all the time with top teams.

Even the smaller teams have pretty high expectations imo.

I'm afraid it isn't so simple to recreate a flexible board into the game, but yes in the past this feature was more balanced and not so demanding, especially in 07.

I think 3 days ago i wouldn't had agreed with you, but just 2 days ago i got sacked in my Leeds game after bringing them back into Europe but i failed to do well in the FA and league cup.

It really disappointed me after having fun in my Leeds game.

I also totally agree on the new signings issue.

Fans can be disappointed yes, but i do think this shouldn't affect board confidence so much as it is now unless they really are useless and expensive.

As for youngsters:

Imo it would be perfect if fans would only react on new signings when they are considered at least rotation players.

Selling players:

This is something that i wouldn't touch to much.

We must have a chance to offload a bad signing without to much punishment.

If this is getting to strict then imo this could become also an issue.

On the other hand when selling a player with to much loss this should have consequences in confidence.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RSCA4Ever:

Ideal for cup games would be based on match by match goals instead of what it is now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. The ideal is as it is now, but with the board capable of recognising a bad draw.

They also need to be able to prioritise better "We'd like you to reach the semi-finals of the league cup, but feel your priority should be the Premier League and Champions League"

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm afraid it isn't so simple to recreate a flexible board into the game, but yes in the past this feature was more balanced and not so demanding, especially in 07. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a new feature.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Imo it would be perfect if fans would only react on new signings when they are considered at least rotation players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've no problem with fans having an opinion on youngsters, they just have to have opinions on them AS youngsters, not treat them like first teamers.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave C:

This is a new feature. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a new feature in the state as it is now yes, but it was always a hidden feature in all of the FM games!

If you didn't do well, you didn't get a new contract.

I call that board confidence.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">originally posted by RSCA4Ever:-

I'm afraid it isn't so simple to recreate a flexible board into the game </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are a programmer by profession and what I write sounds like me talking through my arse feel free to flame me. But would it not be simple enough to create a reference to the competition and the reputation of the opposition faced in said competition.

I can look at a fixture in the near future and it appears on screen stating the competition and the opposition. So why can’t the board reference these stored values when judging a result?

Could you not assign a code to each competition that separates them by country.

For example:-

1. Assign the English League Cup a value, ENG 03

2. Assign each round a value, ENG 03_a where a is a value from 01 to 08 with

1st Round = 01

2nd Round = 02

3rd Round = 03

4th round = 04

QF = 05

SF = 06

Final = 07

Winner = 08

3. Board of Team A is assigned expectations based on these values, so if the board expects you to reach the 4th round the value 04 is stored as ‘expected performance’.

4. Team A, reputation a, faces Team B, reputation b, in 3rd round, value 03.

5. Team B defeats Team A. The value representing what round of the League cup Team A reached is stored as ‘actual performance’, in this case 03

6. Board of team A compares performance versus expected to give a value termed ‘general competition confidence’ which = (expected performance) - (actual performance).

7. Board of team A compares the reputation of Team A to the team that defeated them, Team B.

‘Reputation B’ – ‘Reputation A’ = ‘Club Status Differential’

8. Board of Team A makes a judgement on the level of performance. This could be calculated in the same way the after match statements are decided (like the ‘should have won this easily’ that is the bane of so many FMer’s experiences).

9. Combine 6, 7 and 8 in a calculation to determine the board’s response thus incorporating the 3 main factors:-

(i) the board’s expectations in the competition

(ii) the quality of the opposition faced

(iii) the actual match performance

Given the hour of the morning my brain isn’t functioning well enough to spot the potential for bugs in that simplistic sequence but I would hope that someone who is employed as a programmer with a company that develops one of the top selling PC games could come up with something similar but more efficient and less buggy.

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yep everything you said is true

Signing players has to be the worsed I signed Lulinha in January for 20 million and he only played 12 games getting a 6 eight times and 7 four times and yet he got worst signing of the year and the fans said he was under performing.Then next year he got footballer of the year and the fans player of the year,if only they gave them a chance for the first for a couple of months

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isuckatfm:

In the database, league ratings and team reps are available.

I also would think that the game recognizes cup rounds with a certain variable or constant.

Unfortunately i am not a top selling PC game programmer, and i would never claim anything we suggest is easy to program either, but this might be a good example what you show imo.

Of course only SI knows if something like this could be used.

Sorry to not reply in more depth, it's also early here, but this is the kind of flexibility i was looking for yes! icon_smile.gif

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Right, before I start, I agree with a lot of the points made, despite me enjoying the game. However, I think a couple of them are not as big an issue as they may appear.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Long term performance and loyalty

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, completely agree. I've never taken control of a top club in FM08 for precisely that reason.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Cups

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Basically the same as the previous point, although referring to luck instead of skill. Doesn't mean I disagree, though...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Youth Players

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the first bit I may have to disagree with. If you have a youth player, and he doesn't play for you in the time period before he stops becoming a new signing, the bar stays firmly central, which is exactly what it should be. If they start playing first team football, the in-game fans have to assume that he's a first team player. And, if they implemented a system where they compared performance to squad status, there would be a number of problems raised as a result (such as if a person sets a player status to 'Youngster', who then enters the first team, and this is not changed, or a Key Player defensive midfielder, who are infamously getting lower ratings than the rest of the field)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Charity Shield

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Already, I think, drastically decreased the weighting. Generally, the way the confidence feature works at the moment is that, in the summary, they pick your largest bar and your smallest bar, and comment on it. Whether or not that's a good idea is for another post, but I do not think that the Charity Shield is weighted particularly heavily. And obviously, the board is going to be less happy if you lose than if you win.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

League Cup

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree totally, and this was one of the main reasons I was concerned about the confidence feature before the game came out - because it told you how to do in EVERY competition. Overperformance in one doesn't cover underperformance in another anything like enough.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Finances

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, again in agreement. Either give us full financial control and blame us for what happens, or give us the current amount of financial control, and make it not our job to sort it out.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

New Signings

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possibly a good point, but some of the examples you gave confused me. You seem to be confusing the initial reaction to the signing with their feeling for the player for their entire stint at the club. No, Henry wasn't an immediate hit. But I don't remember fans going "Yes, we like him, because he'll be brilliant in about five seasons." So the new signing bar would be fairly low, as necessary, but the fans would like him afterwards. That's fine.

Similarly with your youth player. He was slagged off at the start because he was playing really badly (reading between the lines). The fans judge on performance, not potential. How were they supposed to know that he'd become a top scorer in the PL? A lot can happen in three years - you wouldn't have bet in 2005 on England not being at Euro 08.

And, as far as I recall, Sheva wasn't given very long. The fans were on his back quite quickly after they realised he was playing awfully.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Selling Players

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't give me a good ranting section, can you? You have to go and give me yet another good point. This should go right under 'New Signings' in the confidence feature. But it would have to take price, quality, reputation and potential of player into account.

All in all, good post. And not what I expected when I clicked on the title. May you be a yardstick for all future moaners to moan towards! icon_biggrin.gif

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your points on long-term performance and loyalty are spot on, definitely need looking at, as do the cup competitions.

i would have to agree with spoonguardreturns with respect to the signings aspect though. i always make a point of signing up a lot of younger players to develop at my clubs, and, as he says, the bar always stays in the cente unless they do start making appearances. the only time it hasnt been the case is when the player has been sent out on loan, and sometimes the fans for opinions of them then.

definitely agree with the point about the charity shield, although i dont think it is given quite as much weight as the rest of the competitions, it could still do with adjusting.

as could the league cup. ok you naturally want to win every competition you enter, who doesnt? but, i dont think any of the top managers would go out trying to win the league cup if it meant their league of european cup performances would suffer, and this is how it should be treated in the game.

cant really comment ont he finances aspect, as i always manage at liverpool, and, despite the fact our chairmen could quite easily have been created by some puppeteers, they never quite get that bad, although in my longest game so far (up to 2014 now) they have extended new anfield three times!! seems as soon as theres a decent amount of money in the bank, they go build some more seats!!

selling players could and imo SHOULD be implemented in the confidence side of the game. if the fans/players can be happy about a signing, and the players can react to one of their own being sold, then the fans should be able to as well.

good post though, some good point well made, and its nice to see some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of the game! icon14.gif

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Mayhaps another point to be taken into account by the board in the confidence section would be long term injuries to key players.

I've had lots of long term injuries this season. I can't remember a month since august in which I haven't had less than 2 first choice players injured.

The sutuation has become critical this past month (February 2019). We have 8 first choice players out for the next 3-12 weeks.

If we don't get other injuries we might retain the title (8 clear with 8 matches to go and 2 more matches in hand for us), but by prioritising league and UCL performances (where we're in quarters) I've simply had to let the League Cup (fell in quarters against Celtic) and the proper cup slip (semis against Motherwell).

It's not that unrealistic IMHO that the board ask us to challenge for everything domestically with the team we have. However, with the injury plague we've had, they should be delighted that we've managed to finally open a gap in the league and that we're still alive in Europe. Instead, they're moaning about the useless cups.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Leezoid:

My thread </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, it was point 8...

Right, going to try to reply to everyone else now...

Dave C - yes i appreciate it's a new feature, but i can't escape the feeling that the changes i've suggested are plainly obvious.

I'd come up with ideas along these lines within two seasons of play, so i just wonder why SI decided it was acceptable as it is, i know they have deadlines etc, but still it seems more rushed than just a new feature.

isuckatfm - thank you for providing evidence, i was looking for some links to support mine, but it was late lol

As to how the finances should be handled, i think you've nailed it. Lets hope SI decide to pull their fingers out now.

Dave C again - yes i feel that youngsters who are played can have fans comment on them, but i agree completely that they should bit rated as youngsters, not first team players. - i think this is what i wanted to say, just that it got a bit muddled.

isuck - looks like a straight forward enough way of analysing cup competitions, not sure why SI haven't don it this way, because the draw you get greatly increases the chances of getting anywhere (look at chelsea's run in last sesasons FA cup - at home against lower league op most of the way).

Spoonguard - My compaint regarding youngsters is that the ones i use DON'T play first team football - they make a few (single figures tbh) sub appearances, but the fans treat this as first team football.

If they play many games then i expect them to be rated as such, but if they've only made 6 sup apps then i don't want to get moaned at.

Charity shield - yes they should be happy if it's won, but still, nobody really cares. If i got humiliated in it then fair enough moan, but just losing a close match shouldn't really be a problem.

My point with new signings was that i didn't feel enough time was given for them to settle in. Maybe a confidence along the lines of "hopes player x will improve in time" would be better?

UELLfan - i've had several cases when i've lost key players to injury, and i've just wanted to shout at the board "IT WASN'T MY FAULT!!!" - i think they should be taken into consideration, but whether this type of variable is too subtle for FM is another matter.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Dave C - yes i appreciate it's a new feature, but i can't escape the feeling that the changes i've suggested are plainly obvious.

I'd come up with ideas along these lines within two seasons of play, so i just wonder why SI decided it was acceptable as it is, i know they have deadlines etc, but still it seems more rushed than just a new feature. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are entirely obvious, and were all registered last summer, within about 5 minutes of testing getting underway. And to be honest, SI themselves probably logged them long before that.

As you say, there are deadlines etc.

If it's the same next year, we should be burning the building down.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave C:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

Dave C - yes i appreciate it's a new feature, but i can't escape the feeling that the changes i've suggested are plainly obvious.

I'd come up with ideas along these lines within two seasons of play, so i just wonder why SI decided it was acceptable as it is, i know they have deadlines etc, but still it seems more rushed than just a new feature. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are entirely obvious, and were all registered last summer, within about 5 minutes of testing getting underway. And to be honest, SI themselves probably logged them long before that.

As you say, there are deadlines etc.

If it's the same next year, we should be burning the building down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair enough. I'll start sharpening my pitch fork in preperation for FM09 then lol

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Good post Ched.

I just started a new game with Everton, and after about ten games I'm (somewhat surprisingly) sitting top of the premier league, through in the UEFA cup to group stage and scraped through to the next round of the league cup (a difficult away game at portsmouth.)

I have won every game bar one, away at Villa, and that was close. I am yet to play any of the big teams, except Liverpool away, which I won, sand I know its still early in the season, but the board remain unmoved in their satisfied status. A 'good start to your management career' would be nice.

Also, I got Steve Sidwell on loan. Not the most exciting player I know, but a solid premiership midfielder, and as he is loan, it suggests I signed him mainly short term to bolster the squad. Yet as mentioned in previous posts, even though he has only played a handful of games, the fans really hate him. He hasn't got less than a 6 rating, so although he has been very average, he doesn;t need to be vilified just yet.

Someone suggested confidence in signings should be relevent to their squad status. Definitely. But also to their transfer status. If your club signs a player on loan, and he isn't great, you aren't as bothered as he will soon be off back where he belongs, compared to a full time signing. Take Everton in rl, pienaar is doing really well, so Moyes getting plenty of credit. Graveson less so, but as he is only on loan, I can live with that.

One more thing. As in regards to my save I mention above, the fans have been pleased with every game, even the one loss I have suffered. Delighted at beating Liverpool. So my point is, surely both board confidence and fan confidence should be linked? If the fans are happy, then the board would be too? more bums on seat = more money.

Finally (sorry, I've gone on a bit haven't I) when people say 'its a new feature' fair enough. I know how difficult it must be to programme a game like this, and SI do a great job in general. But, if you introduce a new feature, it should work well. Surely thats the point of testers? The people that buy the game should't be testing new features.

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Sorry for double post. I will shut up in a minute I promise!

I just want to say the confidence feature is the one thing I'd like to see fixed/improved with the next patch.

In my save mentioned above, I just used one of the normal tactis, spent 30 seconds moving sliders and then got on with the game. So while other things in the ME probably annoy people, there are at least ways to avoind them. But the confidence thing is something that you simply cannot ignore. you have to get the board on your side or you get sacked.

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Playing a career game I took over a team in the lowest division in Sweden at mid-season. They were last in the league and when I took over we didn't lose a single game and climbed to 4th place. Needless to say the board was unhappy that I didn't win promotion icon_frown.gif.

It seems like the board's expectations doesn't change according to how badly the team is doing. Anyway, this is just one small bug of many that makes the game un-immersive. I hope they can sort these things out in the next patch.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sweet-Zombie-Jesus:

I hope SI read this.It points out what is wrong with FM.5 thumbs up.

icon14.gificon14.gificon14.gificon14.gificon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank god for that, after recently been slagged off by nepenthez for "Every thread you start or post in is to flame FM, or SI", i'm glad some people can appreciate that all i'm trying to do is provide some constructive criticism.

I like this game, but i'm not going to pretend it's perfect just to make others happy.

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I too completely agree with the confidence aspect.

Try being Havant and Waterlooville....the stats for the team are the worst in the league, that I can see, yet the board have said they expect me to win the league....in my first season, in my first job as a manager...

If you lose more than two games, the players' moral drops enough for the team to go on a massive run of poor form, because they aren't "performing as well as they should be", or the players "feel that the team has more potential than it is showing"...

Trust me, Havant are the biggest challenge you can hope for in the English game.

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Decent post but not the first time really. I would say this is the most moaned about feature. Maybe even more than the 'Shot/Ratio bomb'. SI know the problems by now, if they dont then I wouldnt know what to do.

Fact is, this feature should never have made it into FM08 because it simply wasn't finished. As Dave C says, its a new feature but there is no excuse for putting this into the game in such a poor state.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neji:

Decent post but not the first time really. I would say this is the most moaned about feature. Maybe even more than the 'Shot/Ratio bomb'. SI know the problems by now, if they dont then I wouldnt know what to do.

Fact is, this feature should never have made it into FM08 because it simply wasn't finished. As Dave C says, its a new feature but there is no excuse for putting this into the game in such a poor state. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes is tihnk it would have been better just to develop the feature for FM09 and omit it from this years version, but i guess there would still be problems then...

Anyway, Dave C says they've been long aware of the limitations, so lets hope its fixed by next year (or at least moving in the right direction...)

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Sometimes is tihnk it would have been better just to develop the feature for FM09 and omit it from this years version, but i guess there would still be problems then... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 100%. You can expect problems with a new feature, sure but the current state is taking it a bit far really. Heres hoping 8.0.2 is tweaked... ALOT icon_smile.gif

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I've spent some considerable time tinkering with alot of things in the editor Ched, mainly to balance the game a little bit better and solve some of the problems.

Doing this I've managed to sort out some of the reputation, financial and other aspects of the game you've mentioned.

Still, it's only because I know my way around the editor and have spent alot of time doing it.

Other issues you've mentioned in other threads are annoying but luckily have'nt affected me as greatly as I thought they might.

The biggest problem is that there are so many issues and problems with FM08 overall that really can't be ignored, that those of us who have played the series for so long can't fail to miss.

I would ignore the fact that one or two people on the forum are saying you're covering old ground with your posts. They have by far been the most constructive in highlighting the issues and I'm sure that even the staff at SI would welcome more if this type of constructive criticism, rather than ranting, aggressive or plain stupid posts. If only more people took the time to put their point across objectively and politely.

icon14.gif for your efforts. I think that the long-term FM players and fans appreciate it.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx:

I've spent some considerable time tinkering with alot of things in the editor Ched, mainly to balance the game a little bit better and solve some of the problems.

Doing this I've managed to sort out some of the reputation, financial and other aspects of the game you've mentioned.

Still, it's only because I know my way around the editor and have spent alot of time doing it.

Other issues you've mentioned in other threads are annoying but luckily have'nt affected me as greatly as I thought they might.

The biggest problem is that there are so many issues and problems with FM08 overall that really can't be ignored, that those of us who have played the series for so long can't fail to miss.

I would ignore the fact that one or two people on the forum are saying you're covering old ground with your posts. They have by far been the most constructive in highlighting the issues and I'm sure that even the staff at SI would welcome more if this type of constructive criticism, rather than ranting, aggressive or plain stupid posts. If only more people took the time to put their point across objectively and politely.

icon14.gif for your efforts. I think that the long-term FM players and fans appreciate it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Havent' tried editing my way around things yet, it's a bit irritating that the game has forced us into this icon_frown.gif

Oh well, not long till 8.0.2 and lets hope some things change.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave C:

I completely agree it needs a lot of work, but it is a new addition and will take a year or two to iron out the wrinkles.

All this sort of stuff has been logged and discussed.

If it's as bad next version, then you have cause to moan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But even if they get this 'fixed' in the next version, there'll be some other new feature that has the same (lack of) quality as this feature has in fm08. SI feel they need to have a lot of new features to sell us each installment of the series. But they don't get these new features to the level of quality we expect from them!

And that's their biggest concern for fm09 and beyond. They've raised the bar for any kind of serious football management game, and they need to reach it themselves everytime. Let's just hope that for fm09 they won't go crazy on the number of new features, but instead work out the wrinkles in the current release.

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I actually rig the draw in the cups to reach the stage the board want me to. I don't cheat normally, but how can I accept being sacked for not reaching a predetermined stage of a luck-based cup competition?

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This is one of the worst implemented feature ever- that I can remember- other than the agent video stuff-which was more of a bad idea actually..

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Another great post Ched icon14.gif, agree 100% with you on this. board confidence has made both my long term games unplayable.

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Great post Ched. You managed to spell out my major frustration with the game.

You also gave concrete ideas on how to improve this issue. This is the #1 issue for next year's version IMO, and should not be too hard to fix.

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There are two aspects to the cup confidence that don't reflect real life.

The first is the temporary effect on confidence - in real life cup losses are soon forgotten when a few league games have passed, as long as the league form is acceptable of course.

The second is the long term affect. Again, in real life a manager who won the cup the year before is unlikely to be chastised for a poor performance the following season. Cup performances are generally assessed over 3 or 4 years rather than 1, as it is in the game.

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I knew that the confidence issue needed to be addressed, but last night it annoyed me so much.

3 seasons in, took my Exeter team up from the BSP as champions in my first season, finished just off the play offs in League 2 in the next season. 3rd season, expectations in the league was to win it, i finished 2nd by 4 points and subsequently promoted. League cup and fa cup went out in the first round to teams 2 divisions above me and got slated for that. Johnstones Paint Trophy (or whatever it is called) they wanted me to get to the Semis, which i did but it said i only got to the quarters! Subsequently i got the sack, IRL the manager in that situation would have been given at least a half a season in at the next level!

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I think the injury part of this is important - the game seems to have a mechanism on next game

scouting when it tells you key players injured etc, so it does seem to recognise when players

are missing - maybe based on player rep or CA/PA?

Similarly doesn't seem to recognise sendings off either sometimes - often get poor fan feedback after matches when I have a player sent off in the 5th minute or something daft.

Also as said there needs to be an option to play youth/reserves in the league cup for example -

the game simply doesn't allow the top teams to act as they do in real life - maybe players should have a managers option of saying to the board ' i'm ignoring the league cup' or something similar and this then places more focus on the league.

Good post. icon14.gif

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