Patch 8.0.1. Shots to Goal Ratio not fixed - SHOCKING!! SI Please answer - believe to be related to Closing down and Long shots bug

[mertle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

Keep the feedback coming chaps, but please post links to pkms as well as screenshots!

Despite what some of you think, we do take our post release support seriously, and will not be ignoring this issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks PaulC could the issue why chances being missed be down to composer or was I off the mark.

Could I suggest looking at the tactics settings I mentioned. As I feel this could be an issue as fitness levels dont seem to despense enough.

allout attack conjunction with full quick tempo. Put every player on hold ball.

all attack players wingers,mc and strikers on full creativity within a 4-4-2. Wingers with arrow told to move slightly forward.

[alutac13]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JordanC:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alutac13:

If you have a high conversion rate for 1v1's then i am surprised. What exactly do you consider to be a 1v1? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I consider a 1v1 to a be a player dribbling with the ball and the only person between them and the goal is the GK and clear free from any defenders (maybe 2-3 steps at least).

Most of my misses aren't shots into the chest right at the GK. They're either tipped over the bar or shot low and just wide of the goal. When I was Liverpool, they had much better placement. I'm playing in L2 though, so my players can't do anything well anyways, but they still get it just past the keeper about half the time they get a 1v1 chance (which as I said previously is not too often) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My players are not to bad at converting chances when there are no players directly between striker and at fairly oblique angles and defenders couple steps away from goalside of the attacker. Whether that is a few steps right or left when ideally they should be diagonally or 2 to 3 steps behind when well obviously they ideally should not be. What they miss 90% + of the time is when they are thorough on goal with absolutely no pressure on them. If they slowed down and let the defender atch up would they score more. Does not seem right unless as I have said before here or elsewhere all my players 90% of opposing players are better when under pressure then whent they are under no pressure.

[alutac13]

Just noticed that the match commentary considered my last goal a 1v1. There was no def between the attacker and the gk. There were 2 defenders about 1mm (screenwise) from the striker. Dribbling there was little of. So i guess i need to say that it is not stupid that you miss so many 1v1's but that it seems that the presence of defenders nearby seems to 9dramatically?)increase the chances of the goal being scored and increase the chance of it not being hit straight at the keeper. More shots wide of/over target seem to occur in these situations as well. Hopefully people will consider what i am saying and then play x number of games and see if what i am saying makes sense in the context of what they see.

[alutac13]

ok the commentary says he is clean through on goal. Makes it sound like a 1v1 to me. Whether it was or not in terms of does the gk 1v1 attribute etc come into it don't have a clue.

[karllucas1991]

Its a game sort your life out? and secondly bloody hell Why does someone care about something which doesn't matter if u don't like fm go home? and get another game

Karl Lucas

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JordanC:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alutac13:

There's not a major problem with overall stats if you use certain tactics. What will never change is the fact that certain types of chances are missed far too often. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm trying to show that isn't always the case at all. Like I commented about my Bury game that a grand total of FOUR or FIVE one-on-one chances between both teams in a full match is VERY HIGH for me. There are many matches I've played where there were NO one-on-one chances or something in the range of 1-3 between both sides.

I'm showing that my tactics don't seem to create those types of opportunites well at all, yet when they do show up, I convert more often than not.

Look at the total SOG I have in my games...some have 12 SOG all game COMBINED by both teams. Most of the screenshots I see up here have 25-30 SOG just from one team! Those teams score twice, missing 6 one-on-ones. My team scores twice, only creating 2 one-on-ones and converting on one of them.

I'm not trying to debate whether it SHOULD be this way or who's right or wrong. I'm not saying my tactical approach is a solution to everyome's woes. All I did was make tactics that don't create many one-on-ones, yet have a much higher conversion rate on them. I honestly want to figure out with everyone why this is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

good point, you proved that game is cheating...

[alutac13]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by karllucas1991:

Its a game sort your life out? and secondly bloody hell Why does someone care about something which doesn't matter if u don't like fm go home? and get another game

Karl Lucas </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

People who either just say omg what a brilliant game when a game is average or say nothing about a games weaknesses depite it having good bits about it or just stop playing a game yet continue to buy it's ffg incarnation are why certain games devolopers (read those who make pro evolution soccer) can produce a product that at best does not improve in 3 years. IMO PE4 was the best 5 worse 6 even worse still. Have not played 08 yet. Some of us do not want this to be the case with FM. Constructive criticism + people seeing problems, commenting on them and trying to figure out what can be done to sort them out are making the game a lot better than what it would be if there were nothing but...what's the word i am looking for...fanboys?

[Offside]

Yeah this is driving me nuts. I'm sick of cpu keepers getting motm awards against me.

[PaulC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:good point, you proved that game is cheating... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He did?

[Rams_]

In my opinion you need to tone down the "luck" attribute in this game. I've lost 4 games in the championship so far this season, every single one down to "lady luck" and it's very frustrating.

[Fred_the_Red]

PaulC what I noticed is toning down creative freedom, tempo and mentality does help reduce the number of shots on target and increase the number of converted goals.

However toning these factors down still doesn’t seem to solve the problems especially with 1 to 1 chances.

I am unable to provide games for you simply because I am in the middle of winning the league FA cup and Champions league so need my freedom, tempo and mentality fixed at the current point it is.

Here are 3 games I have dug up tho that might help you with this problem..

What I have found out is teams playing high creative freedom (<14 notches) tempo (< 12) and mentality (<13) will result in a number of shots created game with easy chances missed.

These three factors I believe have a huge affect on team play more then people think.

Teams who play with high creative freedom will result in players shooting from long range when ever possible instead of making a pass or through ball even if the long shot is set to rarely. (This was heavily documented before the 8.0.1. patch). Playing a high tempo seems to make players miss easy sitters because they are rushing the 1 to 1s and shooting straight at the keeper instead of deciding what best side to shoot.at.

These 3 factors I believe are what is contributing to the shots to goal ratio. Teams having these set on high will play a high tempo, attacking game with more emphasis on attacking, looking to score goals when ever possible instead of looking for better opportunities (quality) of shots/goals. Because teams are rushing to score goals, it results in players trying long shots that will never be on target or players shooting at random in hope to win games.

Toning these factors does work but doesn’t solve the problem because teams have to play at this level for quality of shots to be converted to goals. It seems to be impossible to play a high tempo game even if you have the players to do so simply because you are unable to convert chances due to players rushing shots.

Also the problem doesn’t seem to appear with lower league sides but do with premiership clubs like United, Arsenal and Chelsea.

Anyways here are the 3 games I have that maybe of help to you. I am unable to upload it on you ftp server so I have uploaded on to rapidshare.

http://rapidshare.com/files/73911842/Shots_to_goals_ration_games.rar

[wwfan]

Nice to see people making a decent stab at analysing why and how things are going wrong, rather than just moaning. However, I think the analysis here is a little flawed, as it isn't taking enough factors into consideration.

Things I would be asking myself:

1: Am I playing with enough width to allow my team to keep possession of the ball in the final third and thus construct moves rather than rely on one type of ball?

2: Are my full-backs helping out with attacking moves (a la the full back role in modern football) or do I always keep them in a defensive position?

3: Are my strikers always making FWRs or is one of them actually dropping deep to help with build up play?

4: Am I tight-marking with everybody which thus reduces the time and space my own players have on the ball if I win possession?

All of the above (and more) need to be taken into consideration above and beyond specific slider notch settings.

[JordanC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:good point, you proved that game is cheating... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He did? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hahahaha. Paul, I've been sitting here re-reading my post a few times trying to figure out what he means. Am I at least somewhat on target with the "quicksand effect" happening with teams taking way too many shots burying themselves in a confidence catch-22?

[JordanC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:

Anyways here are the 3 games I have that maybe of help to you. I am unable to upload it on you ftp server so I have uploaded on to rapidshare.

http://rapidshare.com/files/73911842/Shots_to_goals_ration_games.rar </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fred, I just watched all three games (on extended highlights though) and to me, I find the Roma and Burnley match to be fine. I think there was only one or two 1v1 chances between both games. Sure, some passes into the box with a striker fending off a DC, but not clear cut stuff.

In the LA Galaxy match, I saw I believe three 1v1's for your team, all missed. I was keeping track of your player stats after each SOG and in about the 70ish minute or so, Fernandez got a quick pass on a run from Pato for a 1v1 and I said to myself "he's definitely missing this one" because he missed one earlier and his player stats weren't good rated at a 6. From what I've seen on those 3 matches, he seems like the type of player that's very sensitive and streaky.

Do you notice that your tactics leave a lot of open space for your opponent's attack around your box? (the FB's push up way too much for my liking) Your opponents also hibernate much tighter around their area since you're bombarding them so much, a lot of crowding for your attackers to receive balls.

I also notice one major difference in tactical setup to my own. Midfield play - it seems barely existent on your PKM's compared to my games. Sure, I play slower, but your guys seem to run full speed down the field and bypass a lot of midfield build-up. I rarely saw any sequence that involved 6+ passes and then reception on a forward run.

I'm not trying to criticize tactics though, just want to understand how people are setting them up. Even in my Liverpool game when I started playing FM08 with 18-20 SOG/avg, my matches weren't as hectic as I've seen here.

By the way, wouldn't it help a bit to SUB players in the 2nd half? (In the LA game, almost all your attackers were in the 60-70 range) I don't know about you, but I bring out fresh foot replacements for those under 80% unless they're playing really well.

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JordanC:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alutac13:

There's not a major problem with overall stats if you use certain tactics. What will never change is the fact that certain types of chances are missed far too often. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm trying to show that isn't always the case at all. Like I commented about my Bury game that a grand total of FOUR or FIVE one-on-one chances between both teams in a full match is VERY HIGH for me. There are many matches I've played where there were NO one-on-one chances or something in the range of 1-3 between both sides.

I'm showing that my tactics don't seem to create those types of opportunites well at all, yet when they do show up, I convert more often than not.

Look at the total SOG I have in my games...some have 12 SOG all game COMBINED by both teams. Most of the screenshots I see up here have 25-30 SOG just from one team! Those teams score twice, missing 6 one-on-ones. My team scores twice, only creating 2 one-on-ones and converting on one of them.

I'm not trying to debate whether it SHOULD be this way or who's right or wrong. I'm not saying my tactical approach is a solution to everyome's woes. All I did was make tactics that don't create many one-on-ones, yet have a much higher conversion rate on them. I honestly want to figure out with everyone why this is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

good point, you proved that game is cheating... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is example:

your team scores twice by creating, let's say 3 good chances with 9 shots on goal

some people make 30+ shots a game, I don't know how many of those are 100%, but there must be some. and they also (like you) score 1, 2 goals

is it tactics? or is it that game doesn't allow cricket scores? which is good, I think.

and then we come to the point, that there are too many shots/1 on 1's/100% chances, created in the first place anyway.

I think PaulC understood me very well

we are trying to make some constructive debate here, and you shouldn't laugh at people just like that, you might not be the smartest person in the world if you think your defensive/less chances/more goals, tactics is working.

if you scor 2 goals from 7 shots isn't it logical to score more than 2 goals with 40 shots?

can you see my point now?

[Mitja]

Paul do you know what I mean?

[PaulC]

No sorry I cant see how on earth you conclude that "the game is cheating"!

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

No sorry I cant see how on earth you conclude that "the game is cheating"! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry Paul maybe it is hard word to say...

but we would have scores like 15-3, or 10-0 then, what I want to say the game just prevents those scores, which is good in my opinoum...but....

[Mitja]

have you seen this

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.ward90/HighScore.jpg

[MUFC4LIFE]

im not having any problems scoring goals, and im using the same tactics pre patch. Ok so i don't score 3-4 goals in a match often, but how many times does that actualy happen now a days. im winning matches scoring 1-2 goals a game, score 3 few times, and 4 here and there.

[gerry58]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

No sorry I cant see how on earth you conclude that "the game is cheating"! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry Paul maybe it is hard word to say...

but we would have scores like 15-3, or 10-0 then, what I want to say the game just prevents those scores, which is good in my opinoum...but.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also agree. Sometimes it is like i'm watching an hockey game (not a football game). Too many shots on goal but the game engine in some way keeps the total number of goals made low (for realism sake).

[Mitja]

not to mention superGK, or long shots going constantly straight to his arms, off sides....

this all could get fixed with smartering defensive awerness of defending team, to act as a unit, to help each other (I never seen 3 or 4 defenders surounding a player with ball, IRE it's the basics of any, especially zonal defense).

[Fred_the_Red]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JordanC:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:

Anyways here are the 3 games I have that maybe of help to you. I am unable to upload it on you ftp server so I have uploaded on to rapidshare.

http://rapidshare.com/files/73911842/Shots_to_goals_ration_games.rar </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fred, I just watched all three games (on extended highlights though) and to me, I find the Roma and Burnley match to be fine. I think there was only one or two 1v1 chances between both games. Sure, some passes into the box with a striker fending off a DC, but not clear cut stuff.

In the LA Galaxy match, I saw I believe three 1v1's for your team, all missed. I was keeping track of your player stats after each SOG and in about the 70ish minute or so, Fernandez got a quick pass on a run from Pato for a 1v1 and I said to myself "he's definitely missing this one" because he missed one earlier and his player stats weren't good rated at a 6. From what I've seen on those 3 matches, he seems like the type of player that's very sensitive and streaky.

Do you notice that your tactics leave a lot of open space for your opponent's attack around your box? (the FB's push up way too much for my liking) Your opponents also hibernate much tighter around their area since you're bombarding them so much, a lot of crowding for your attackers to receive balls.

I also notice one major difference in tactical setup to my own. Midfield play - it seems barely existent on your PKM's compared to my games. Sure, I play slower, but your guys seem to run full speed down the field and bypass a lot of midfield build-up. I rarely saw any sequence that involved 6+ passes and then reception on a forward run.

I'm not trying to criticize tactics though, just want to understand how people are setting them up. Even in my Liverpool game when I started playing FM08 with 18-20 SOG/avg, my matches weren't as hectic as I've seen here.

By the way, wouldn't it help a bit to SUB players in the 2nd half? (In the LA game, almost all your attackers were in the 60-70 range) I don't know about you, but I bring out fresh foot replacements for those under 80% unless they're playing really well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jordan I like attacking football and I do win all if not most of my games using my current tactics. I cant remember those games much just know they had alot of shots on goal. Most are probably from outside of the area.

Anyways the problem isn't about the 1 on 1, yes coversions of 1 on 1 are low but other scoring situations are low too. Hence the large % of shots. There are problems with players shooting straight at the keeper instead of making the kepper dive for the ball. There are problems with 6 yarders being saved or blasted over.

In the LA game most of my players finnished at 78% condition so I had no real need to sub.

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

No sorry I cant see how on earth you conclude that "the game is cheating"! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what he means is (and Ive always wondered this) is does the game "balance" scorelines to prevent stupidly unrealistic scorelines?

After all something like the miriad of one on ones being created and then missed could be seen in this way. Although if this was the case Id expect the limiting to be implemented as a reduction in chances, not by just stopping players scoring.

[Mitja]

george can you post a link for first beta patch?

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

george can you post a link for first beta patch? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Afraid not, Ive just got the 2nd.

If I get a chance later I'll post on rapidshare.

Although I too would like to try the 1st again after the comments about it.

[PaulC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

No sorry I cant see how on earth you conclude that "the game is cheating"! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry Paul maybe it is hard word to say...

but we would have scores like 15-3, or 10-0 then, what I want to say the game just prevents those scores, which is good in my opinoum...but.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheating is totally the wrong word for that. The game doesnt "prevent" any score, but we tune each part of the match engine so that over 100s of games, the average no of goals/shots on target etc is close to real life.

I think when talking about these issues the key is "quality of chance". I think if there is re-balancing to be done going forward then it starts with that.

[Fred_the_Red]

To be honest shots on goal has always been a problem in FM as long as I can remember.

Another annoying problem is how good England is. Every FM version England win the Euros and World Cup. England is massively overrated.

[Mitja]

I apologised Paul, and Im doing it again.

as I sai,d I ment "cheating" not cheating.

I been playing this game since their beginings and I'm very suprised by this new match engine, it's hard to win, matches are as real as they can get, OK its got its bugs, without them it would be allmost perfect.

is there any chance we could get the link for the 1st beta patch, please.

[Fred_the_Red]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

No sorry I cant see how on earth you conclude that "the game is cheating"! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry Paul maybe it is hard word to say...

but we would have scores like 15-3, or 10-0 then, what I want to say the game just prevents those scores, which is good in my opinoum...but.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheating is totally the wrong word for that. The game doesnt "prevent" any score, but we tune each part of the match engine so that over 100s of games, the average no of goals/shots on target etc is close to real life.

I think when talking about these issues the key is "quality of chance". I think if there is re-balancing to be done going forward then it starts with that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While your doing that, can you look at the long shot option. Still getting players shooting from outside of the box even if set to rarely. Seems to overide the through ball set to often. The high creative freedom seems to encourage long shots too.

Glad to see some action is taken after almost 10 pages of moaning.

Seems SI only takes action when people moan moan moan. Only joking but good to see some steps being taken.

[Fred_the_Red]

Also PaulC since you are quite active in this thread I really like to see for the next FM installment a stat for the number of crosses by a player. We have % of completed crosses overall but not a number of individual crosses per player stat.

Thanks.

[alutac13]

Long shots slider needs to be changed drastically. The one thing i don't get is people's use of this word good chances. Saying use this tactic and you will create more good chances and therefore do better.

Sitters and 1v1's when the striker are under no pressure are missed a lot. When strikers are under pressure they score more often. Crosses are converted fairly often.

The use of the concept 'good' chances is very match engine specific and has no bearing on what would be considered a good chance in real life (other than the crosses if you have good headers of the ball). Therefore tactics are counter-intuitive.

If the strikers waited for defenders to close them down then they would convert more chances...if this meant taking your time composing yourself then shooting as defender is about to tackle sure i can buy that. But when the defender has been alongside the attacker for 10-15 yds as opposed to a striker running on his own for 10-15yds i do not.

Perhaps the way composure works with tempo/creative freedom needs to be looked at. Sure make a high tempo/creative freedom player take more unwise shots..but down make the players ability to score from easy chances woeful due to this setting.

[mertle]

I think last night I found out the problem.

PaulC your going to need to check out the long shot command as I found the slider not doing what it should be doing.

It seems its doing the oposite to what it should be doing. This is bug whuch rares it head occasionally in FM2007 before the last patch closing down and tackling. Seems this patch caused long shots slider to switch. If your slider is on little the team tries to shoot all the time long distances.

If you move the bar into the middle you get balance(correct to the command setting). If you move the bar to tell players to frequent long distance shooting it almost stops players shooting from range.

This patch seems to affect tactics already being deployed before the patch during game started before patch.

I noticed after altering the slider from little long shots to balanced the 1 on 1 worked better.

Players started to again place the ball when in good position and generally it solved many issues being posted here.

What is worrying has there other slider bars gone awry. Which could be causing these large amounts of chances.

I would suggest everyone to put the long shots to balanced at the moment. As this does solve 1 v 1 no more always shoot at the keepers. Not saying they will always score but its much better.

[mattbuck]

Hi Paul.

I have been finding that almost every game i play in, one team has at least 30 shots. I find this a little silly, i play a defensive tatic with little creative freedom, i have uploaded a pkm for you to look at. IMO there are to many shots, im not worried about the goals, just the constant end to end action in almost every game. Being a bristol rovers fan, i check the stats in real life after most games, its quite common to see a sides total shots on goal under 10 per game. The game i have uploaded is of my playoff final second leg (which i lost to a better side than mine), i am not moaning because i lost the game either.

I could probably find many more if you would like them. I finished the season in 5th position.

http://rapidshare.com/files/74033096/Swansea_v_Bristol_Rovers.pkm

[alutac13]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mertle:

I think last night I found out the problem.

PaulC your going to need to check out the long shot command as I found the slider not doing what it should be doing.

It seems its doing the oposite to what it should be doing. This is bug whuch rares it head occasionally in FM2007 before the last patch closing down and tackling. Seems this patch caused long shots slider to switch. If your slider is on little the team tries to shoot all the time long distances.

If you move the bar into the middle you get balance(correct to the command setting). If you move the bar to tell players to frequent long distance shooting it almost stops players shooting from range.

This patch seems to affect tactics already being deployed before the patch during game started before patch.

I noticed after altering the slider from little long shots to balanced the 1 on 1 worked better.

Players started to again place the ball when in good position and generally it solved many issues being posted here.

What is worrying has there other slider bars gone awry. Which could be causing these large amounts of chances.

I would suggest everyone to put the long shots to balanced at the moment. As this does solve 1 v 1 no more always shoot at the keepers. Not saying they will always score but its much better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you saying makes sense because if the attacker shoots earlier it probably does not consider it a 1v1..so changing your strikers to shoot more often from range seems a good idea.

Just wondering if all your players are set to team tactics so is it really all your players that are being changed or just some.

[JordanC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

we are trying to make some constructive debate here, and you shouldn't laugh at people just like that, you might not be the smartest person in the world if you think your defensive/less chances/more goals, tactics is working.

if you scor 2 goals from 7 shots isn't it logical to score more than 2 goals with 40 shots?

can you see my point now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortnutely, it may sound this simple to you, but it's flawed logic. Go back a page or two and read my post about probibilities:

Your argument logic assumes that each miss/chance is an independent event. (for example, the dice in a craps game. Probability remains the same every roll regardless if the last three times it came up 9)

I am stating logic based on DEPENDENT events. (for example, blackjack. Probability changes as certain cards are removed from the deck hence the ability to "count" and bet with more positive expected value)

Of course it completely makes sense that if you roll dice 20 times it should come up as a "5" approximately 20% of the time (1 in 5). If you roll the dice 100 times, it should still come up as a "5" about 20 times.

This is a direct example of your argument that 10 shots equal 2 goals means 40 shots equal 8 gaols.

Blackjack would work the same way if the dealer shuffled the deck after every hand, but they don't. Each subsequent hand has a different probability of result because certain cards were removed. As an exaggerated example, imagine a 8-deck shoe with no aces. You can't make blackjack then!

Going back to a normal shoe, as you see aces removed from the deck as you play, the probability of making blackjack decreases. You're playing the same game, same basic strategy, but your success rate will be much different because a variable has changed.

Equate the blackjack example to shots on goal. Every shot your player misses seems to deflate confidence a little. That's like taking one ace out of the deck. Your players miss a bunch of shots...take even more aces out of the deck. After a while, you'll find yourself playing through the whole shoe and never hitting a blackjack.

My "chance-limiting" tactics are like putting down bets only when there are a lot of aces in the deck as opposed to playing every hand of the entire shoe. I'll play 10 hands and get 2 blackjacks. You'll play 40 hands and also get 2 blackjacks. Does that mean the game is rigged? Of course not.

Should a team that bombards the goal 40 times a game be able to win more often? Not my point of argument here. I'm just stating the theory that your team may be thinking "damn, we shot 14 times without converting" thereform lowering their confidence for further opportunities. As the example before, highlighting how your lack of goals on following attempts may be DEPENDENT on your success rate in the previous ones.

By not giving my team the opportunity to lose confidence in a high amount of missed shots, I seem able to get my players to convert a much higher percentage when indeed the shots come.

Is this clearer now?

[gbmiranda]

I found the proble. There are 2.

1) Too many shots from outside the area without any instruction to the player do that. Need be changed a little!

2) Tactical problem. I changed my tactic against little teams to be more offensive, and the game backed to "normal", without a lot of shots (but have too shots yet, see problem 1).

This is my opinion

[SmurfDude]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JordanC:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

we are trying to make some constructive debate here, and you shouldn't laugh at people just like that, you might not be the smartest person in the world if you think your defensive/less chances/more goals, tactics is working.

if you scor 2 goals from 7 shots isn't it logical to score more than 2 goals with 40 shots?

can you see my point now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortnutely, it may sound this simple to you, but it's flawed logic. Go back a page or two and read my post about probibilities:

Your argument logic assumes that each miss/chance is an independent event. (for example, the dice in a craps game. Probability remains the same every roll regardless if the last three times it came up 9)

I am stating logic based on DEPENDENT events. (for example, blackjack. Probability changes as certain cards are removed from the deck hence the ability to "count" and bet with more positive expected value)

Of course it completely makes sense that if you roll dice 20 times it should come up as a "5" approximately 20% of the time (1 in 5). If you roll the dice 100 times, it should still come up as a "5" about 20 times.

This is a direct example of your argument that 10 shots equal 2 goals means 40 shots equal 8 gaols.

Blackjack would work the same way if the dealer shuffled the deck after every hand, but they don't. Each subsequent hand has a different probability of result because certain cards were removed. As an exaggerated example, imagine a 8-deck shoe with no aces. You can't make blackjack then!

Going back to a normal shoe, as you see aces removed from the deck as you play, the probability of making blackjack decreases. You're playing the same game, same basic strategy, but your success rate will be much different because a variable has changed.

Equate the blackjack example to shots on goal. Every shot your player misses seems to deflate confidence a little. That's like taking one ace out of the deck. Your players miss a bunch of shots...take even more aces out of the deck. After a while, you'll find yourself playing through the whole shoe and never hitting a blackjack.

My "chance-limiting" tactics are like putting down bets only when there are a lot of aces in the deck as opposed to playing every hand of the entire shoe. I'll play 10 hands and get 2 blackjacks. You'll play 40 hands and also get 2 blackjacks. Does that mean the game is rigged? Of course not.

Should a team that bombards the goal 40 times a game be able to win more often? Not my point of argument here. I'm just stating the theory that your team may be thinking "damn, we shot 14 times without converting" thereform lowering their confidence for further opportunities. As the example before, highlighting how your lack of goals on following attempts may be DEPENDENT on your success rate in the previous ones.

By not giving my team the opportunity to lose confidence in a high amount of missed shots, I seem able to get my players to convert a much higher percentage when indeed the shots come.

Is this clearer now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're over analyzing and over complicating things here for the sake of trying to prove your own point.

Getting back to basics, the fact still remains that for a large majority of us, it is too easy to break down defenses and therefore create these (what most of us would consider) excellent chances, which for some reason are mostly missed. The byproduct of this is a hugely frustrating game, which shouldn't be the case.

The reason for it being frustrating is, I actually watch real football, and am totally aware that teams do not constantly play through balls and leave the striker running towards goal with only the keeper to beat. This just doesn't happen in the premiership, the defenders are much more aware and able to deal with it, yet it does happen frequently in FM. It's a combination of clueless defenders, followed by next to useless strikers. For me this ruins the fun.

Now this didn't happen in the previous patches, and I'm not one to hastily come here moaning after I lose one match. I make sure to play entire seasons to give things the benefit of the doubt. I also try to be as constructive as possible and explain in detail what I think is wrong.

Now I could probably alter tactics to create less chances. I've heard playing slower and defensive work well. But that's utterly absurd to suggest. The only element which should force me to change tactics is to counter the opponent AI, not counter a bug.

Anyway, I feel we're all going around in circles here. I'm pretty certain there are problems with the latest ME, infact I'm 100% convinced after spending a whole day playing FM, then the day after switching back to a beta, which in my mind the ME is more realistic.

But I've said pretty much all I have to on the matter now. I'm just hoping SI manage to get to the bottom of all of this and determine what's wrong, so hopefully those of us who are experiencing the problem can be happy (well I will be atleast)

[SmurfDude]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JordanC:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

we are trying to make some constructive debate here, and you shouldn't laugh at people just like that, you might not be the smartest person in the world if you think your defensive/less chances/more goals, tactics is working.

if you scor 2 goals from 7 shots isn't it logical to score more than 2 goals with 40 shots?

can you see my point now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortnutely, it may sound this simple to you, but it's flawed logic. Go back a page or two and read my post about probibilities:

Your argument logic assumes that each miss/chance is an independent event. (for example, the dice in a craps game. Probability remains the same every roll regardless if the last three times it came up 9)

I am stating logic based on DEPENDENT events. (for example, blackjack. Probability changes as certain cards are removed from the deck hence the ability to "count" and bet with more positive expected value)

Of course it completely makes sense that if you roll dice 20 times it should come up as a "5" approximately 20% of the time (1 in 5). If you roll the dice 100 times, it should still come up as a "5" about 20 times.

This is a direct example of your argument that 10 shots equal 2 goals means 40 shots equal 8 gaols.

Blackjack would work the same way if the dealer shuffled the deck after every hand, but they don't. Each subsequent hand has a different probability of result because certain cards were removed. As an exaggerated example, imagine a 8-deck shoe with no aces. You can't make blackjack then!

Going back to a normal shoe, as you see aces removed from the deck as you play, the probability of making blackjack decreases. You're playing the same game, same basic strategy, but your success rate will be much different because a variable has changed.

Equate the blackjack example to shots on goal. Every shot your player misses seems to deflate confidence a little. That's like taking one ace out of the deck. Your players miss a bunch of shots...take even more aces out of the deck. After a while, you'll find yourself playing through the whole shoe and never hitting a blackjack.

My "chance-limiting" tactics are like putting down bets only when there are a lot of aces in the deck as opposed to playing every hand of the entire shoe. I'll play 10 hands and get 2 blackjacks. You'll play 40 hands and also get 2 blackjacks. Does that mean the game is rigged? Of course not.

Should a team that bombards the goal 40 times a game be able to win more often? Not my point of argument here. I'm just stating the theory that your team may be thinking "damn, we shot 14 times without converting" thereform lowering their confidence for further opportunities. As the example before, highlighting how your lack of goals on following attempts may be DEPENDENT on your success rate in the previous ones.

By not giving my team the opportunity to lose confidence in a high amount of missed shots, I seem able to get my players to convert a much higher percentage when indeed the shots come.

Is this clearer now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're over analyzing and over complicating things here for the sake of trying to prove your own point.

Getting back to basics, the fact still remains that for a large majority of us, it is too easy to break down defenses and therefore create these (what most of us would consider) excellent chances, which for some reason are mostly missed. The byproduct of this is a hugely frustrating game, which shouldn't be the case.

The reason for it being frustrating is, I actually watch real football, and am totally aware that teams do not constantly play through balls and leave the striker running towards goal with only the keeper to beat. This just doesn't happen in the premiership, the defenders are much more aware and able to deal with it, yet it does happen frequently in FM. It's a combination of clueless defenders, followed by next to useless strikers. For me this ruins the fun.

Now this didn't happen in the previous patches, and I'm not one to hastily come here moaning after I lose one match. I make sure to play entire seasons to give things the benefit of the doubt. I also try to be as constructive as possible and explain in detail what I think is wrong.

Now I could probably alter tactics to create less chances. I've heard playing slower and defensive work well. But that's utterly absurd to suggest. The only element which should force me to change tactics is to counter the opponent AI, not counter a bug.

Anyway, I feel we're all going around in circles here. I'm pretty certain there are problems with the latest ME, infact I'm 100% convinced after spending a whole day playing FM, then the day after switching back to a beta, which in my mind the ME is more realistic.

But I've said pretty much all I have to on the matter now. I'm just hoping SI manage to get to the bottom of all of this and determine what's wrong, so hopefully those of us who are experiencing the problem can be happy (well I will be atleast)

[NFFCareMAGIC]

Seriously now, I'm at the end of my tether.

I've read this thread closely and have taken quite a few points on board but the fact remains, that I miss far to many one on ones/easy chances. I also believe that it's too easy to carve defences open which only adds to the frustration when your striker slaps it over/hits the 'keeper for the umpteenth time.

Are the finishing/composure attributes totally redundant?

[This field intentionally l]

The blackjack analogy is quite interesting and somewhat relevant. A slightly more interesting and relevant analogy is to compare FM with a game call Football. I've observed this game on numerous occasions and yet to see a team consistently create 20-30 SOGs and yet fail to score from any of them.

Hope this helps.

[Kriss]

If you've it carefully you'll know that it's being investigated.

It takes a great deal of time firstly to substantiate the problems(s) then to make any step by step adjustments, testing for effectiveness and adverse knock on effects at each stage.

The diversity of opinion in this thread alone gives an idea of the complexity.

It's SI's custom not to fuel rumour or controversy so they won't say anything substantial until they are sure of their facts.

What they will say then can only be speculatedon.

[Kriss]

Here's an oddity which I suppose could be used to cloud things even further.

I don't think it should be deemed significant in the context of this thread but it does show how hard it is prove problems like this.

Just finished an away match at Aldovisi with my Nueva Chicago side.

Aldovisi shots 29 on target 14

Nueva shots 5 on target 3

We won 2-0

Infuriating isn't it? especially as I'm totally in agreement with those who see a problem.

[austopel]

I am also having this prob. Here are a few examples.

vs Bolton

vs United

vs Westham

Formation

Tactics

All my forwards have the right sort of stats and should finish. Like others have said its the bread and butter misses that kill me and make it so frustrating. Any help would be appreciated.

[austopel]

try that again

vs United

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6ozgcr5&s=0

vs Westham

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=72zsi9z&s=0

vs Bolton

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6jyg3ds&s=0

Formation

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=8aknrzb&s=0

Tactics

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=7xmtn5f&s=1

Preview and/or edit would be handy.

[velonce]

I'm also having a huge problem with shooting. All long shots look like they came from a rocket launcher, while the keeper makes an amazing save to follow it up.

But the main issue for me is I can't seem to be able to score directly. Rather, I have to set a formation so that I have a number of players near the goal square, ready to pounce on any rebounds. Sometimes the keeper would save a couple of point blank shots in a row, thus generating a much larger number of shots on target than in life. The keeper rarely misses any direct shots and only fumbles at most. Which makes one on one tough to score since there's no one to pounce on the rebound.

[jtrotz89]

In the last two matches Ive probably missed about 40 one on ones, most of them saved by the keeper because my players seem to be unable to shoot the ball anywhere else but the keepers chest, which in turn earns him Man of the ******* match

[eXistenZ]

I've already opened a topic about this but they all send me to here, anyway:

I switched from FIFAM to FM because i was very dissapointing with EA. And i must say SI has a far more better game. Only just one thing. And this litle thing screws the whole game:

In a match, my strikers need more than 25(!) shots to score a goal. 25!!!

An offcours the opposition scores on an average of 1/3 shots

They say reloading your game when you lose is cheating, but when: the shots are 25-3, your strikers are twice as good, there is no Petr Cech in the opposition goal and they win then with 0-1, i think i got the right to reload my game. Mad Mad Mad

It took me two hours to proceed two weeks in the game to get a result that isn't completly unrealistic.

SI do sometihng about this really quick, before i throw this game out of the window. You have a good game but this is just ridiculous.

(And no, it's not my strikers, and no it's not my defence)

[gerry58]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JordanC:

Is this clearer now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is clear that blackjack has nothing to do with football and that your knowledge of football is quite rudimentary. The game engine needs a patch and SI knows it .

[Joeskeppi]

The way I see it, the match engine si slightly flawed and allows too many chances to be created during a match, when your striker misses from one yard, that's the match engone going out of it's way to ensure there are realistic score lines and not 6 all draws all the time.