Why Even My UNBEATEN City Game Has Me Reaching For The Off Button

[PaulC]

Just done it now using the way from that thread

Its called Armchair Athlete Bad Defending.pkm

Just having a look now.......

[wwfan]

The question is: Does the simulation simulate defending well? (lets measure 'well' against FM07 or 08)

?

Does it simulate 'skinning' defenders well?

?

Does it simulate pace well?

?

Does it simulate 1-v-1's well?

?

Etc...

1: At times yes, at times no

2: At times yes, at times no

3: Generally no, but at times yes

I think the major weakness is in how it simulates non-physical related attributes, especially mistakes, in that it simulates things after the ball has been played rather than before it. No one would argue if a defender stepped out of line due to poor positioning and anticipation before the ball was played, thus leaving a major gap because he mistimed his move. However, the ME tends to plot the mental elements after the ball has been played, which makes defenders look like they are not reacting to easy interceptions. It's all in the timing of movements.

[PaulC]

Just having a look now.......

Fixed now. Pretty obscure, and fairly easy to fix. It didnt come up in beta - hopefully with us expanding beta going forward these things are less likely to slip through now.

[TwoShedsJackson]

I wish it was tactical. I move to a 4-2-3-1 formation with 2 DM and 3 mids. I play narrow, with time wasting and slow tempo.

Try using a quick tempo instead, gets the ball away from your goal faster - if you use a slow tempo and you don't have players who can hold on to the ball properly, you're risking losing the ball in a dangerous area at a time when the opposition have rather more players than usual up front, which is obviously not good.

[nymanr]

I actually find this thread very good. Nice debate going on and good constructive discussion all round(well for the most part).

I do agree with OP and fell he hit the nail on the head when he started talking about defender positioning and decision making.

I have found both positioning and decision making horrific in my game when playing with Man Utd.

Constantly get caught when the opposition start there breaks.

Seems impossible to guard one self against throughballs and as a result you concede.

More so the balls mostly go between my DC's. They leave huge gaps between each other and it doesn't help if you use a DM to guard that space. By some reason one of them leaves the line to close down the breaking midfielder who has the ball. Usually he who leaves the line is also the one who has the striker behind him so then you se the perfect throughball.

First i thaught this happens because my settings are to aggressive,

DL= normal

DC mentality = normal 9

closing down = own half 8

creative freedom = little 1

forward run = rarely

marking = zonal

width = normal 10

(no difference with tight/loose marking)

so i toned them down

DL= Deep

DC mentality = defencive 6

closing down = own area 5

creative freedom = little 1

forward run = rarely

marking = zonal

width = normal 10

(no difference with tight/loose marking)

But still you see this kind of behaviour. Tried seting all their settings to min.

DL= Deep 1

DC mentality = ultra defencive 1

closing down = own area 1

creative freedom = little 1

forward run = rarely

marking = zonal

width = normal 10

(no difference with tight/loose marking)

But still you see them leaving the line to close down players and by doing so they open up space for the through ball.

strange thing is with the settings above they still go forward all the way to the half way mark and just stand shoulder to shoulder with opposition striker. Goalie gets ball hofs it over ferdinad & vidic and striker is through...

Their ability top react is also to slow.

When i lose posession i know i am open for the counters but when you tell players to only guard for that specific occurance why won't they? It just seems they freeze so that the opposition can get their chance.

Problems also accure when the through ball is played in between DC and FB. I push FB's up so ther is space there. No problems with that.

Then the winger gets the ball and runs up the pitch so my FB starts tracking back to catch him. Also OK

When we reach the final 1/4 of the pitch one of my DC leaves his place to also go after the winger who is still running by the sideline even though i have told him not to close down often. My DC does this regardles of what other threats are close to him inside the box or arriving to be open for the cross. This i think is strange...

As the DC has now left his place to go close down the winger my other DC moves to the empty spot left by the other DC regardles of where the other threats are in my box.

Most of the time i come up against 4-5-1 so the lone striker who is the only one i want my DC to worry about is left unmarked, and scores an easy tap in by the back post.

What concernes pace i have some mixed feelings. I have Ronaldo and Aguero and Rooney in my team who have great pace and can run with the ball. I have yet to see them clearly outrun anyone, but when at "full speed" with the ball at their feet they rearly give it away. Ronaldo just twists and turns dribling with the ball until he decides to give it away.

On the other hand Obefami martins is impossible for my defence. Played newcastle 2 times and he has scored 5 goals. He just gets the ball and runs away from my defence. Nothing fancy just runs past ferdinand on on side without him beeing able to do anything about it. When Vidic comes and helps and gets in his way he just changes direction and runs away from him also and rounds it all of with a clinical finish.

The fact that i cant get a solid performance from my defence has taken abit of the experiance for me but i haven't given up hope yet.

Sorry for the very long post with the bad spelling, but English isn't my main language.

[Hammer1000]

I'd agree that defenders should get the basics right most of the time. Where I don't agree is that any player, even really good ones, can always get the basics right.

Smac pointed out that you misquoted me here, i never suggested they Always get it right.

1: Defensive running lines are poor. As it is a pretty basic component of football, they should be improved, but not to the extent that the poor decision making DC always picks the perfect line.

Not sure if to suggest that the defender WILL always at least choose the right line, as i cannot say i've EVER seen a defender in RL make a run on such an angle that will only put him on course to end up behind the opponent? this does not mean to say i'm suggesting he will always get the block in, or that he wont get skinned by his opponent anyway?

2: The MCd needs to track back and cover possible breaks if a DC steps out of the defensive line. However, if the DC has low anticipation, positioning and workrate, he might not do so well.

Fair enough, but if the DC DOES have the necessary stats(as in my examples) he should do better!

3: The crabbing is a weird, possibly graphical, bug that needs to be fixed

The question here is, would that mean it would stop certain AI goals being scored in this scenario? or does the fact that the game has calculated a goal mean it will just be scored in some other way?

4: The DC running to a ball prior to retreating is definitely a bug, albeit a rare one, and needs to be fixed.

Again, if a goal has been calculated, would this mean that a goal would no longer be scored by the AI under these circumstances?

5: FBs need to pick the opposing winger as their markee to stop them getting dragged inside, especially when the ball is on their flank, and work harder to stop the cross getting in. However, when it is on the opposite flank, they need to narrow to make an extra man in the box should the cross come in.

So are you accepting that this is in fact an ME problem that needs fixing?

As for using Richards as an example, ......

If only he was'nt so overated on the game then eh?

As for my Lescott examples, it is obvious in both cases that he has an unobstructed view, if this was not the case, then it could be understood that an obstructed view was the reason for his errors.

Of course, if these errors were few and far between it would also be quite acceptable, but as these are standard reactions with even the best defenders in the World, it becomes farcical.

[wwfan]

Not sure if to suggest that the defender WILL always at least choose the right line, as i cannot say i've EVER seen a defender in RL make a run on such an angle that will only put him on course to end up behind the opponent? this does not mean to say i'm suggesting he will always get the block in, or that he wont get skinned by his opponent anyway?

However, he can fail to anticipate/read the pace of the forward's dribble and get stuck behind him. I agree that running lines are poor in general, but there has to be a way of visually simulating a bad decision. How would you make it look?

Fair enough, but if the DC DOES have the necessary stats(as in my examples) he should do better!

I actually meant MCd. My bad. However, again, we have to accept that sometimes an MCd won't track back when he should, although it needs to be a common movement. Perhaps a commentary line '[NAME] failed to cover the break and was punished for it'.

The question here is, would that mean it would stop certain AI goals being scored in this scenario? or does the fact that the game has calculated a goal mean it will just be scored in some other way?

In the crabbing scenarios I've seen ths far, the actual crabbing is incidental as the defender has been beaten for pace already. Even had he continued running at full pace it would have made no difference. However, I'd agree that for occasions where the crabbing causes a goal, it needs to be fixed.

Again, if a goal has been calculated, would this mean that a goal would no longer be scored by the AI under these circumstances?

Yes, as goals that were being scored in direct relation to this bug would no longer be scored.

So are you accepting that this is in fact an ME problem that needs fixing?

I have had issues with the corridor of uncertainty a winger operates in for a while, alongside FB marking, and have made the requisite reports. However, the worst of it can be managed by either tight marking or closing down (or both) the winger often in OIs. I tend to mark the winger and close down the FBs and rarely see it.

As for my Lescott examples, it is obvious in both cases that he has an unobstructed view, if this was not the case, then it could be understood that an obstructed view was the reason for his errors.

Goal side marking needs to be made better. Once again, the Lescott example could be related to a team too soon changing to an attacking stance once possession has changed hands, or reacting too slowly to a losss of possession, or the counter attacking team being able to play killer balls too easily. It may not be the marking that is at fault, but other issues.

[Hammer1000]

However, he can fail to anticipate/read the pace of the forward's dribble and get stuck behind him. I agree that running lines are poor in general, but there has to be a way of visually simulating a bad decision. How would you make it look?

If the forward is faster anyway, even a better line will fail to see the defender make up enough ground, if the defender is the faster player however, unless he slips(player **** stumbles) he should at least put himself in a position to attaempt a block or tackle.

I actually meant MCd. My bad. However, again, we have to accept that sometimes an MCd won't track back when he should, although it needs to be a common movement. Perhaps a commentary line '[NAME] failed to cover the break and was punished for it'.

If the ME stops showing even World Class defenders making so many schoolboy errors/misjudgements, the reaction of the MC almost becomes moot.

In the crabbing scenarios I've seen ths far, the actual crabbing is incidental as the defender has been beaten for pace already. Even had he continued running at full pace it would have made no difference. However, I'd agree that for occasions where the crabbing causes a goal, it needs to be fixed.

It happens all over the pitch mate, players who are nearer to the ball and faster, will often use the crab move to make sure they does'nt reach the ball first(dont ask me wh?)

Yes, as goals that were being scored in direct relation to this bug would no longer be scored.

Great news if the bug IS fixed?

I have had issues with the corridor of uncertainty a winger operates in for a while, alongside FB marking, and have made the requisite reports. However, the worst of it can be managed by either tight marking or closing down (or both) the winger often in OIs. I tend to mark the winger and close down the FBs and rarely see it.

I've ran tests religiously, using every kind of marking and closing down and i can still catagorically state that FB's do not do their job anywhere near often enough.

Goal side marking needs to be made better. Once again, the Lescott example could be related to a team too soon changing to an attacking stance once possession has changed hands, or reacting too slowly to a losss of possession, or the counter attacking team being able to play killer balls too easily. It may not be the marking that is at fault, but other issues.

The Lescott incident was not a quick counter, but i'll be happy if goal side marking is indeed vastly improved?

[Law_Man]

Oh absolutely, when 2D first came out it highlighted loads of match engine problems that previously nobody had an idea about as everyone was on commentary only and now we've gone to 3D it's yet another way of showing issues that might not have been so obviously in 2D.

I also meant that 3D could make something appear as if its a problem with the match engine, when in fact its a problem with the 3D which is arguably the lesser of the two evils, despite the fact the user isn't really able to tell where the problem lies.

[mimland]

I think that players need to be smart enough to adapt their marking to the other teams players when there is a corner, throw in, free kick and so on. You don't see managers running around the pitch placing their players each time there is a dead ball. So I can tell my players to do this and that but I can't counter the moves by the opponents as I can't go in and change those settings when I see how the other team is lining up.

[BlackTiger]

Good thread and points very well made in most cases.

For anyone from SI: I posted a new thread in the bugs forum entitled "FAO:SI" last night which so far has not had any replies (so im assuming hasnt been read by an SI member). Its a fairly detailed thread and there are 3 PKM's i have uploaded to support it, details of which are in the thread itself. If you get a chance to give it the once-over, it would be much appreciated.

Apologies for posting this in this thread but i noticed a few SI people (wwfan and PaulC mainly) have been helping out in here quite a bit so im hoping to catch one of them around before my bugs thread goes unnoticed.

Thanks.

[Smac]

1: At times yes, at times no

2: At times yes, at times no

3: Generally no, but at times yes

I think the major weakness is in how it simulates non-physical related attributes, especially mistakes, in that it simulates things after the ball has been played rather than before it. No one would argue if a defender stepped out of line due to poor positioning and anticipation before the ball was played, thus leaving a major gap because he mistimed his move. However, the ME tends to plot the mental elements after the ball has been played, which makes defenders look like they are not reacting to easy interceptions. It's all in the timing of movements.

Now that makes sense.

What I'd like to see with Hammer's original example is the defender tracking back but:

1. Getting 'wrong-sided' by a wily striker like Belamy, or

2. Being unable to put the tackle in because of the striker's strength (or defender's lack of it), or

3. Going in too early or too hard to the challenge and getting skinned, or

4. Fouling the striker when he knows he's beaten but has another 'last man', or

5. Showing a lack of positional sense by not closing down early enough (see Rafa Marquez's awesome tackles from a few weeks ago. Stops ~22 yards from goal, then moves directly toward the striker and takes the ball without taking the man).

Etc.. Rather than looking like a stage-frozen zombie.

[wwfan]

Garry, can you mail me the Man City pkm, so I can do an analysis. I'll upload it to the bug servers afterwards.

By the way, now that you have lost the 'cheating AI' accusations, your deconstructions of the ME have become exceedingly useful once more. Continuing to avoid the former will make your examples of the latter very valuable. However, you will need to upload pkms as back ups to your screenshots if you want Paul to do anything about it. I can explain the process to you if you are not sure what to do.

[woody2goody]

I know I'm a bit late in on this thread, but it appears to me, especially with the original example, and the Everton one to some extent, that the real problem is that the centre back in the middle of the pitch isn't coming over towards the other one, thus closing down the gaps in the defence.

They are always going on about it on Match of the Day. Don't leave a big gap between the centre backs. Even someone with no pace can punish you. I remember during Euro 2008 I think Jan Koller was played clean through on goal, and we all know that he's not Micah Richards or even Ricardo Fuller lol.

[Hammer1000]

Garry, can you mail me the Man City pkm, so I can do an analysis. I'll upload it to the bug servers afterwards.

By the way, now that you have lost the 'cheating AI' accusations, your deconstructions of the ME have become exceedingly useful once more. Continuing to avoid the former will make your examples of the latter very valuable. However, you will need to upload pkms as back ups to your screenshots if you want Paul to do anything about it. I can explain the process to you if you are not sure what to do.

Be glad to mate!

In fact, it'll be easier to send you a collection of pkm's instead of trying to upload them through SI channels(last year i followed the instructions, but they would just NOT upload?) if this is ok with you?

As for "cheating AI"

I really dont want to get into that old chestnut(nudge, nudge, wink, wink, lol)

[RT--]

After reading through this thread, I've noticed my defenders doing the 'crabbing' action in 2D classic a couple of times - but as wwfan suggests, it would seem they only do it when they wouldn't have been able to catch the attacking player anyway.

If anyone's got a pkm of this crabbing behaviour from a defender who should have been able to catch the attacking player, it'd be interesting to see it.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Uploaded a pkm for anyone who's interested. Same issue as in the first post - the third Notts County goal (my team btw) [75:00 is the exact time]. My defender picks the ball up near his own area. He slowly moves up the pitch with the ball looking for a pass. The opposition CB (or the player covering for him as it's a situation that occurs after a corner at the other end) who's at least 30 yards away from him and supposedly the one who should be marking my striker right behind him decides to charge at my player with the ball. My player waits until he's really close, while my striker moves into completely open space staying onside. A perfect through ball is released. Another AI defender is covering and just like Richards on the OP's screenshot would have no trouble running across to at least put a tackle in. He runs along the right line for a while, then suddenly takes a sharp turn behind my striker and then starts moving towards him again, but is now left far behind. My striker continues the run and scores.

Three issues there.

1) The opposition defender (the player covering) charging up the pitch. Why would he leave his man in acres of space to run 30 yards towards a player at the opposite end of the pitch? Surely he'd wait until the defender is nearer to him or just continue marking his man hoping to cut out the inevitable pass.

2) The initial behavior of their other (covering) defender. He stays on his man while it's blatantly obvious that there is another striker in a remarkably better position to receive the pass. He should be switching men to cover immediately.

3) The running line of the defender as mentioned above.

[isuckatfm]

Uploaded a pkm for anyone who's interested. Same issue as in the first post - the third Notts County goal (my team btw). My defender picks the ball up near his own area. He slowly moves up the pitch with the ball looking for a pass. The opposition CB (or the player covering for him as it's a situation that occurs after a corner at the other end) who's at least 30 yards away from him and supposedly the one who should be marking my striker right behind him decides to charge at my player with the ball. My player waits until he's really close, while my striker moves into completely open space staying onside. A perfect through ball is released. Another AI defender is covering and just like Richards on the OP's screenshot would have no trouble running across to at least put a tackle in. He runs along the right line for a while, then suddenly takes a sharp turn behind my striker and then starts moving towards him again, but is now left far behind. My striker continues the run and scores.

Three issues there.

1) The opposition defender (the player covering) charging up the pitch. Why would he leave his man in acres of space to run 30 yards towards a player at the opposite end of the pitch? Surely he'd wait until the defender is nearer to him or just continue marking his man hoping to cut out the inevitable pass.

2) The initial behavior of their other (covering) defender. He stays on his man while it's blatantly obvious that there is another striker in a remarkably better position to receive the pass. He should be switching men to cover immediately.

3) The running line of the defender as mentioned above.

Another issue with that pkm for me is what the Wolves #24 Vaughan does. Pause it at the moment Bartoli heads clear. He is better positioned to get to where the ball goes than the Notts County #5 who actually gets to it. Yet he runs away from where the ball is heading. If you switch it to the closest possible view (zoomed vertical) his head movement actually follows the ball as he runs away from it.

If I had to guess the cause of this behaviour it would be he is the Wolves striker, possibly has a high mentality and is thus attempting to move to the opposition's defensive line or where he should be in relation to the ball as a striker instead of reacting in a 'common sense' manner to the situation.

Same could be said for Wolves #23 who should chase down the loose ball instead of robotically moving initially towards his default position.

From the attacking perspective

The #9 movement. Freeze it at the moment Jorgensen receives the pass. #9 will easily have seen the Wolves #15 as the last man. He should be running with his team mate from the get go while focusing on the Wolves defender to stay onside. But he just freezes and goes from being 5 yards in front of Jorgensen when he receives the pass to 7 or 8 yards behind. In my opinion a contributing factor to counter attacks being largely a single player affair as well as limiting the possibility of a tap in from a cross on the break whereby the one on one striker lays it off to a team mate instead of taking a shot from a difficult angle himself.

The Good Stuff

It's all criticism as usual but the movement of Jorgensen is spot on for me. He cuts across the defender and hits it early on the edge of the box as the keeper is coming off his line not allowing him to set himself properly (don't even know if that is coded but it was textbook stuff).

On point 3) again the same issue. First two movements are towards player receiving pass. No point doing that unless the separation distance allows for the defender to challenge for the ball or get close enough to hold up the player in possession.

But after Jorgensen takes his touch Kadar starts on a very good line but 8 frames later changes course towards Jorgensen and as a result ends up way behind. No player in the world would do this. The FM equivalent of CA 1 and 1 in every attribute (a virtual me ) should not do this.

Defenders tend to fall for the ‘stutter step’ move (slow down to draw the defender in then accelerate away to take advantage of the defender’s need to adjust his body to a larger extent, usually in a direction opposite to that the defender came from) when closer to the ball carrier and in a position to get goalside or make a challenge. So they change their path expecting to be able to make a challenge but not when the ballcarrier is a decent distance goalside of them where they would continue on their perceived 'intercept path'.

But that is just my opinion of it .

[Äktsjon Männ]

Another issue with that pkm for me is what the Wolves #24 Vaughan does. Pause it at the moment Bartoli heads clear. He is better positioned to get to where the ball goes than the Notts County #5 who actually gets to it. Yet he runs away from where the ball is heading. If you switch it to the closest possible view (zoomed vertical) his head movement actually follows the ball as he runs away from it.

If I had to guess the cause of this behaviour it would be he is the Wolves striker, possibly has a high mentality and is thus attempting to move to the opposition's defensive line or where he should be in relation to the ball as a striker instead of reacting in a 'common sense' manner to the situation.

Same could be said for Wolves #23 who should chase down the loose ball instead of robotically moving initially towards his default position.

From the attacking perspective

The #9 movement. Freeze it at the moment Jorgensen receives the pass. #9 will easily have seen the Wolves #15 as the last man. He should be running with his team mate from the get go while focusing on the Wolves defender to stay onside. But he just freezes and goes from being 5 yards in front of Jorgensen when he receives the pass to 7 or 8 yards behind. In my opinion a contributing factor to counter attacks being largely a single player affair as well as limiting the possibility of a tap in from a cross on the break whereby the one on one striker lays it off to a team mate instead of taking a shot from a difficult angle himself.

The Good Stuff

It's all criticism as usual but the movement of Jorgensen is spot on for me. He cuts across the defender and hits it early on the edge of the box as the keeper is coming off his line not allowing him to set himself properly (don't even know if that is coded but it was textbook stuff).

On point 3) again the same issue. First two movements are towards player receiving pass. No point doing that unless the separation distance allows for the defender to challenge for the ball or get close enough to hold up the player in possession.

But after Jorgensen takes his touch Kadar starts on a very good line but 8 frames later changes course towards Jorgensen and as a result ends up way behind. No player in the world would do this. The FM equivalent of CA 1 and 1 in every attribute (a virtual me ) should not do this.

Defenders tend to fall for the ‘stutter step’ move (slow down to draw the defender in then accelerate away to take advantage of the defender’s need to adjust his body to a larger extent, usually in a direction opposite to that the defender came from) when closer to the ball carrier and in a position to get goalside or make a challenge. So they change their path expecting to be able to make a challenge but not when the ballcarrier is a decent distance goalside of them where they would continue on their perceived 'intercept path'.

But that is just my opinion of it .

A great and thorough analysis, thanks for that

The #24 and #23 movement - didn't pick it up myself because i just selected the goal incident to review and this was before the cut in point. It seems as if all Wolves' attacking players charge up assuming they've won possession. No idea why they would assume that as apart from those very same attacking players there aren't any Wolves players capable of reaching the ball. The #9 movement is poor indeed, but he actually pulls away from the defender when the pass is played. The defender however doesn't attempt to stay tight on him anymore yet he waits until the pass reaches Jorgensen before starting his move towards him. Which seems like another issue to me.

[mmanolis]

The question is how on earth it's been shown 3mins of injury time from the 83rd minute ?????

[wwfan]

For these analyses, there needs to be notification of the time in which the incident happened, so Paul can easily access the bug when viewing the match.

[Mitja]

can someone help me with pkm uploading please.

[BlackTiger]

can someone help me with pkm uploading please.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=54927

all the info you need there pal

[Äktsjon Männ]

For these analyses, there needs to be notification of the time in which the incident happened, so Paul can easily access the bug when viewing the match.

If this was meant at me then I did actually point out that the described incident was the third Notts Co goal (the last goal of the match). Or is the exact time needed?

[Mitja]

thanks, i read that but can't help with it unfortunatly as english's not my natural lenguage and i'm kind of stupid when it comes to computors...

[sirdez24]

The question is how on earth it's been shown 3mins of injury time from the 83rd minute ?????

Because the game has finished and the time bar has been used to go back to the incident in question.

[BlackTiger]

thanks, i read that but can't help with it unfortunatly as english's not my natural lenguage and i'm kind of stupid when it comes to computors...

Apologies, i will try my best.

Choose the game you would like to save from your fixtures list. Open the game and choose "save" near the bottom of the match options bar usually. This will save the match as a PKM file which can be found in your Sports Interactive folder on your computer. Go to your Documents folder and open up - Sports Interactive - Football Manager 2009 - Matches.

You will see the game saved under a name similar to "team name v team name".

Now open up Internet Explorer. type ftp.sigames.com into the address bar. this will bring up a box asking for a username and password. enter:

user: ftp-public

password: public

i then had to convert the page so i could view it in Internet Explorer. (it asks you this question). then simply copy the saved match from your FM folder to the ftp website.

Finally, leave a thread in the Bugs Forum giving the name of your saved match (team name v team name) and the problems you think are present in the game.

Hope that helps

[wwfan]

If this was meant at me then I did actually point out that the described incident was the third Notts Co goal (the last goal of the match). Or is the exact time needed?

The third goal is OK, but the exact time is better.

[wwfan]

Another issue with that pkm for me is what the Wolves #24 Vaughan does. Pause it at the moment Bartoli heads clear. He is better positioned to get to where the ball goes than the Notts County #5 who actually gets to it. Yet he runs away from where the ball is heading. If you switch it to the closest possible view (zoomed vertical) his head movement actually follows the ball as he runs away from it.

If I had to guess the cause of this behaviour it would be he is the Wolves striker, possibly has a high mentality and is thus attempting to move to the opposition's defensive line or where he should be in relation to the ball as a striker instead of reacting in a 'common sense' manner to the situation.

That's an excellent summary of what happens. Vaughan's first movement (74:42 - 74:45) is towards his default position and happens the moment Notts County win the header. There is no recognition that he is actually the deepest lying player and thus needs to track back. However, a related issue is whether any team would set up a corner routine in such a situation without a player looking to recycle the ball back into the box should the defensive side win the header. Have a 'lurk outside the box' player in place and the situation fails to manifest.

I'm less bothered by the 23's movement. His turn is slow and any possible interception run is blocked off by Vaughan's forward movement (74:43 - 74:44). I can't see what else he could have done except sprint back.

The other issues are the original marking positions of the Wolves back two. Firstly, the no 4 is nowhere near his man (74:38 - 74:44) and even drifts slightly further away from the man and the ball during this period. From 74:44 to 74:45 he looks like he is trying to get into a covering position, but then changes his mind and rushes forwards (74:45 - 74:48). Even without his suicidal rush forwards, he is going to be in trouble because of his original position. A ball angled to the flank takes him totally out of the game. Once he does rush forward, the behaviour of the 15 is off (74:47 - 74:49), as he should be dropping deeper and more centrally to close down the threat. He actually gets closer to the non-threatening attacker and moves forwards, which are carbon opposite moves from what he should be doing. This immediately puts pressure on any interception run he might make. However, at 74:50 he sets off on a pretty good running line for the intercept, before changing his angle at 74:52 which ensures Jorgensen has the chance. Up until that decision, he has the possibility to break up the move. Everything that happens from 74:52 on is incidental, although as isuckatfm has pointed out, Jorgensen's running line is perfect. However, as also mentioned, the other forward is simply not doing his job. He should be busting a gut to get alongside Jorgensen so Jorgensen has passing options should the 15 cut him off.

Another thing worth mentioning about the pkm, is the Notts County second goal. I've been reporting that the GK's kicking distance seems to be miscalculated for a while now, and this is an excellent example, so I'll add an analysis.

12:40: Keeper receives the ball

12:40 - 12:42: Keeper moves the ball to his right foot while being closed down by Wolves 11 and 24

12:42 - 12:46: Keeper launches an inch perfect through ball for Jorgensen

The point is as follows: Most goal kicks taken from the 6 yard box, given the added kinetic energy of the run up to kick, don't travel anywhere near as far as that clearance. I'd suggest that this ball is kicked a good 20-25 yards further than a goal kick regularly travels. Given the fact the keeper has no time to pick the pass and no extra kinetic energy from a run or punt from hands, he simply shouldn't be able to kick it that far. At most, it should be dropping just past the half way line, and not have much forward momentum on the drop, as the keeper will have needed to get elevation on the kick to avoid the onrushing attackers. It looks horribly wrong to me. Thoughts on this most welcome

[Wee Aja]

Paul Robinson Scored that goal against Ben Foster from a standing start with no kinetic energy.....

GK's can wallop the ball incredible distances from goal kicks IRL.

[wwfan]

Paul Robinson Scored that goal against Ben Foster from a standing start with no kinetic energy.....

GK's can wallop the ball incredible distances from goal kicks IRL.

This one. He ran and kicked it, thus it had the extra kinetic energy required to get the distance. If he had done that from a standing position with a simple swing of his foot and no run, then we'd be talking. FM keepers can do it with ease from a standing position and I'd argue that, without great wind assistance, it is impossible in real life.

[Wee Aja]

Oh, I don't care wwfan, I saw my chance and took it, tbh.

Devil's advocate and all that.... Truth be told, I've yet to choose sides

[wwfan]

Oh, I don't care wwfan, I saw my chance and took it, tbh.

Devil's advocate and all that.... Truth be told, I've yet to choose sides

You need the evidence to match the observation though

My argument, although not phrased fully in the earlier post, is that keepers should be able to get greater distance from a run and kick (a la Robinson) or punt from hands than they do from a standing position (which is the position they adopt when they drop the ball to feet, which is also wrong as most times a keeper does this he will roll the ball ahead of him so he can run and kick it). Currently, it works the opposite way round in FM, which is one reason so many GK clearances result in perfect TBs.

[Wee Aja]

*Some back-tracking coming up......*

I only read the last post there (yours), and had actually just missed the most recent point made.

Disregard my initial post, s'il vous plait...

[sirdez24]

Bloody hell...

Anyone got some solutions for the throughball thing (like closing down the keeper on 9.0.1)??

One centre half got three assists in this one.

[wwfan]

Bloody hell...

Anyone got some solutions for the throughball thing (like closing down the keeper on 9.0.1)??

One centre half got three assists in this one.

Would have to see the pkm to analyse how that happened. As it is at your ground, could be problematic.

[roseboy64]

Something I've noticed is that through balls and one on ones are too frequent. Also, players miss quite frequently. I am playing in the lower leagues though on 9.0.2 but noticed this earlier on 9.0.1 with Man Utd. Ferdinand and Vidic would get caught out a lot by through balls even when told to defend deep.

Have been playing lower leagues more recently so this may be down to the calibre of player but I shall also note something else. One on ones are too easily missed. Lower league strikers certainly aren't the most clinical but I can almost be sure 8 times out of 10 if a striker has a ccc he'll miss it by either shooting over or hitting it straight at the goalie.

Also, the ability of players to see a 50/50 ball or a ball that's 80/20 in their favour and not go after it has been happening for a while now. Can't remember if it was their before but definitely now and in FM08 players will back off the ball and allow the opposition to get it and then set up a brilliant counter.

[Hammer1000]

I did'nt want to start a new thread and as what i'm about to post IS connected to the discussion already going on, i thought i would just add it here.

I am in my 3rd season as Manager of Everton, as you know what is spoiling my pleasure of FM the most, is the ridiculous scenario's being played out in 2D and 3D of which we have talked about extensively in this thread.

This makes it nigh on impossible for me to watch games in any great detail(if at all?) but somehow i was managing to carry on with my save, as result wise, as usual, i have been overperforming.

Season 1

Season 2

So two great seasons, overperforming as usual, although i lost to Chelsea in EVERY competition(including the EPL by 1 point) FA Cup Extra Time in Replay, Extra Time in Carling Cup and over 2 legs in the Champions League, i was happy enough.

[Hammer1000]

The 3rd season gets underway and i'm still expected to finish only 5th, teams are playing exactly the same way against me and i am playing the game exactly how i had played it in the two previous seasons.

I improved the squad with a few signings and the team is still nicely gelled, performance wise we are playing as good, if not better than previous seasons, but quite ridiculously are not picking up wins game after game?

I'm going to post examples from MOST of my EPL games this season, now i want to get it straight from the off that i am NOT claiming CHEAT here, if anything, i just think its something else in the game that is not coded properly that allows this kind of thing to happen to these extremes game after game?

Now, each game on its own, is quite acceptable, in fact, these are almost identical to games i've drawn and lost in the previous two seasons and i've just carried on as usual.

In the above games, i hit the woodwork at least 8 times a game.

[Hammer1000]

In the following game i hit the woodwork 5 times.

More woodwork as usual

[Hammer1000]

I'd hoped a good result in this next match would help turn the tide, but despite getting in behind the Utd defence on numerous occasions and Utd having 80% of their shots from 35 yards plus, we ended up with nothing.

[Hammer1000]

Now i just want to make this clear, i have NO problem losing games, i have even less problem drawing games and i dont even mind having a tricky season, or even a difficult season, but for that to happen, i at least expect to have deserved it, through poor performance, or selling off my best striker etc, etc, but i dont find this acceptable at all.

This means my enjoyment of FM has been spoilt two fold, by the very poor ME that we have talked about, plus, the seemingly enforced poor results/form, when your team have been almost totally on top of their game.

I imagine i could carry on with this Everton game and still run the top teams pretty close to the title, but who knows when a run of results like these will turn up again? i cant help but feel there is too little light waiting at the end of the tunnel.

[RT--]

Hammer, two things:

1) I guess you were expecting this, but do you have PKMs of some of these games? Certainly the ones where you hit the woodwork eight times would be interesting.

2) Do you watch your matches on full, key/extended highlights, or text?

Your club's reputation has more than likely gone up after your first two seasons, which means AI teams will certainly use different (more cautious, counter-attacking) tactics against you. If you're still using the same tactics as you were in the first two seasons, it seems reasonable to me that they might not be as effective any more.

Of course, your team seems to be creating quite a few clear-cut-chances, but not taking them. But it's hard to make much of an argument for unfairness by selecting certain games from a season.

[bieritarier]

Of course, your team seems to be creating quite a few clear-cut-chances, but not taking them. But it's hard to make much of an argument for unfairness by selecting certain games from a season.

I'd back you there if this was over the course of a season. However, look at the in-game date. There are 3 such results within 3 weeks, all of them together are within less than and a half in-game months.

I have mentioned it in another thread, I don't think the AI cheats, it is however far more effective with "setting the sliders" in a way that makes it impossible to score at times.

Plus the effect of one player not gelling with the rest of the team is too high. Just because there may be a language barrier or something doesn't mean he forgets the basics of defending/running.

I truely believe the issues we see in the match engine are mainly there because some attributes of players cause exaggerated results, mainly poor behaviour on the pitch with unbelievable errors. Likewise team gelling is too important as are half time team talks. I've had numerous games where I was behind 2-0 against a dominating AI team, they were at home, they were dominating, they were the better team (by far) stats wise. Yet the only thing I did tell my team that I expect more from them and more often then not I managed to get a draw or even a win. On the other hand, when you are 2-0 up at home with a top team against sometimes even a lower league team, they come back after HT totally fired up and push your team back into your own half without ever being caught out on a counter because one of their defenders nods/kicks ever single ball away. More often than not you draw or even lose such a game, to no small part down to the fact that not only the team that is fired up plays better, but the teams that the team dominating the first half all of a sudden doesn't close down, doesn't tackle and constantly smash the ball against one of their team mates for hold it up until they get tackled themselves.

Oh, and I've everything to keep my players focussed.. enjoy the rest of the game, pleased (worst thing to do unless you lead 8-0 or something like that), disappointed, angry, encourage, I've changed tactics around to more attacking, more defensive, counter attack.

The funny thing is, if you were beating a top team, they rarely come back. I don't say this is everyone's experience, but it is certainly mine and at times I really feel the result at HT is completely uselessas the most importnt thing in football seems to be the team talk.

I know it's hard to reflect things like mental stats, form, a gelled/non-gelled team, langueage barriers, focus of players and the likes into a realistic match engine. I also don't think the match engine is utter crap (which is the term you read quite often when someone has another go at the game), but certain aspects are just over-exaggerated where others don't seem to matter at all (e.g. player's dribbling, positioning, off the ball, at times acceleration and pace, and most importantly the tactics sliders).

I'll certainly be starting a new game this weekend, and I'm absolutely sure that it won't be long before I see everything I mentioned above again. I'll try my best to save some pkms and sum up with some notes what I think is wrong with them to prove my point and in the hop that certain things get more balanced for the next patch.

On a side note, please have another look at ball physics. I'm mainly talking about deflections here. It just seems as if a deflection doesn't take any speed off the ball at times (and I'm not talking about slight deflections but "this one will prevent you from having kids"- type shots hitting a player straight where it hurts the most).

Engough said, I gotta go home now

[RobinGoodey]

@ Hammer - perhaps you should look at those games in a slightly different light. Instead of looking at the number of CCC's, perhaps you should look at the number of shots on and off target instead.

If you did - you would notice that (if my maths is correct) that of 109 shots in those 7 games, only 36 were on target - a pretty awful %-age - which suggests that the goal attempts are being rushed, pressured, long range etc - so perhaps it IS down to your tactic - maybe the tempo or something?

PS This is just an observation from the stats (not a criticism) - obviously you are the only person who knows for sure whether thats the case.

PPS And I'm still making this comment even though I've just had to turn the game off just now before I break the screen, having just had my 8th straight draw (having dominated), with the most shambolic freak goal I've ever seen on FM (involving my keeper and 2 of my defenders, with no one within 10 yards of them, deciding to play pinball off each others heads in my area, before at the 3rd rebound, it flies straight to their winger who slots into the empty net)

[Hammer1000]

@ Hammer - perhaps you should look at those games in a slightly different light. Instead of looking at the number of CCC's, perhaps you should look at the number of shots on and off target instead.

If you did - you would notice that (if my maths is correct) that of 109 shots in those 7 games, only 36 were on target - a pretty awful %-age - which suggests that the goal attempts are being rushed, pressured, long range etc - so perhaps it IS down to your tactic - maybe the tempo or something?

PS This is just an observation from the stats (not a criticism) - obviously you are the only person who knows for sure whether thats the case.

PPS And I'm still making this comment even though I've just had to turn the game off just now before I break the screen, having just had my 8th straight draw (having dominated), with the most shambolic freak goal I've ever seen on FM (involving my keeper and 2 of my defenders, with no one within 10 yards of them, deciding to play pinball off each others heads in my area, before at the 3rd rebound, it flies straight to their winger who slots into the empty net)

Its due to the woodwork being hit time and again game after game mate, from what should be a lot of easy tap ins.

I do have a few players on long shots mixed, if their long shot stat is 15+, but only because if i change it to rarely they seem to have more?

I would say a good 80% of ALL opposition shots are from distance, again though, annoyingly, AI players with poor long shot stats are forcing my GK to make saves, whereas my players with good if not great stats, hardly ever hit a long shot on target.

In fact, its rare for them to hit a tap in from 3 yards on target this season???

I just think overall, we need to be provided with a better game altogether, ME wise AND stat related, otherwise we may as well just have the results come up on the screen via the old vidiprinter.

I'd be interested to hear what my mate wwfan thought about this?, especially as he informed me that these kinds of games were going to be few and far between in FM09(as in more like real life)

[RT--]

Hammer - if you put up the PKMs, I think there might be a really helpful discussion around them (as there has been earlier in the thread). Otherwise, I can't imagine there's much that people can say without just guessing and going over the same ground that has been covered before.

I'm sure Rafa Benitez could post up his match-stats from the last couple of seasons and complain about how his team always has more possession and clear cut chances but keeps drawing games against weaker teams

[RT--]

To pick up on something bieritarier said earlier...

One crude way of judging how effective (half-time) team talks are in FM compared to real life might be to analyse how many one/two/three/etc goal comebacks occur in the game, compared to real life.

It's a very hard one to measure, though.

[Hammer1000]

Hammer - if you put up the PKMs, I think there might be a really helpful discussion around them (as there has been earlier in the thread). Otherwise, I can't imagine there's much that people can say without just guessing and going over the same ground that has been covered before.

I'm sure Rafa Benitez could post up his match-stats from the last couple of seasons and complain about how his team always has more possession and clear cut chances but keeps drawing games against weaker teams

If anyone could say it, i'd think that would be Arsene Wenger, but as Arsenal tended(not so much now) to walk the ball into the back of the net AND not really had a top quality striker(since Henry) its easy to see how this has been the case.

I'll sort out some pkm's later!

[Rupal]

I know it's hard to reflect things like mental stats, form, a gelled/non-gelled team, langueage barriers, focus of players and the likes into a realistic match engine.

I just wonder if SI have allowed too much weight to these things? Is the game now too sophisticated?

I can't help feeling that things such as the above, plus team talks, press conference reactions, etc have been given too much emphasis. Combine this with the sliders (which seem to demand very precise settings) and it often seems that the matches are something of a lottery.

I remember reading about a WW2 German aircraft which had been so 'improved' with extra armour plating and other items that it was slower and more vulnerable than the earlier, 'unimproved' version. When pilots began unofficially to have the excess baggage removed, losses plummeted.

Maybe a bit of simplification might be in order.