Why Even My UNBEATEN City Game Has Me Reaching For The Off Button

[Mitja]

if the game followed hammer's logic, richards would be unbeatable.

irl richards is far from unbeatable. fm reflects this.

data issues forum, please

[Hammer1000]

Paul made a valid point though, if the people moaning think they can make the ME better then they should apply to be a tester. It's clear that a few poster's in this thread think they can improve it for the better, so why not? It's no good moaning about it but when a chance arises to actually get involved with the development they decide to walk away and not get involved.

I agree, which is why i have written letters and e-mails in the past asking to become involved.

I would not have the first clue about coding, but i certainly feel that i could help with getting the ME to appear more realistic, in player positioning and skill terms, not sure what this would achieve combined to the tactical side of the game, but there certainly needs to be more correlation between the two.

If you show a World Class defender on top form with superb morale and NOT over confident, making unforced and basically stupid positioning, defending errors, then there has to be some feedback so that you are aware if its A a one off( a bad game) B tactics related C something else.

Do that and you are halfway to making it acceptable as realistic.

[Hammer1000]

if the game followed hammer's logic, richards would be unbeatable.

irl richards is far from unbeatable. fm reflects this.

Again, as have others, you have missed the point.

[sirdez24]

I also had problems loading the 2nd Canvey pkm relating to the stadium. Have you used the editor to change something related to it?

No, it shouldn't be any different to the Sheffield United one which you were able to download without issue.

[PaulC]

I could run the Sheff U one but the other two gave errors when loading them into FM.

[Hammer1000]

Here are another couple of scenario's shown in screenshots, i'll set the stage by giving you as much info as i can.

In this first pic, you can see that City have come away with the ball following an Everton(my team) throw. Lescott is my player, circled in red, his instructions are to loose/man mark, he has anticipation and positioning skills both of 17 and he is playing as my DC(L) and is wanted by Barca, Real and other top clubs.

So why on earth has he positioned himself this way?

This pic(2) shows you what WE all knew was coming, yet Lescott made no attempt to move across until AFTER the ball is played?

[CaptainPlanet]

Long shot, but any opposition instructions to show on to weaker foot?

Also have to say a lot of goals like that are quite realistic.

[Mitja]

why on earth has your other DC positioned like that too? who is he marking? they both stay wider than all Everton and City players together?!!

[Hammer1000]

Heres another from the same game and it just happens to be Lescott again.

I meant to circle Lescott as well as the City player on the ball, but he is the DC(L) this time marking Moutinho and here you can see the defence is pretty much doing its job.

He simply fails to anticipate any kind of impending danger, Moutinho has both less pace and acceleration than Lescott, but he just has to react, whilst Lescott does NOTHING?

Those incidents are both bread and butter situations even to mediocre defenders, yet there is Lescott, wanted by the best teams in the World and he just does not react in these situations.

I know its easy to say, but "I" would have done better myself, but i would have and when i played, i was a sunday league striker.

Maybe you may ask if Lescott just had a bad game? well he got a mark of 7.3 which is quite high for being on the losing side.

[sirdez24]

I could run the Sheff U one but the other two gave errors when loading them into FM.

No idea then, sorry. I have shut the game down for a while anyway, otherwise I'm going to do my laptop some damage.

[The Vet]

I feel the exact same way as OP. I am dumbfounded that people suggests making tactical alterations, when surely they must have experienced the same issues as OP and I? Its not about winning or losing(I am winning most of the time myself), but the way the game is played.

For this reason - I have quit FM 09 and went back to EHM 07, which is far more enjoyable.

[Hammer1000]

Long shot, but any opposition instructions to show on to weaker foot?

No, rigorous testing has shown OI's make absolutely no difference.

It would explain it away a little, as you could suggest he is showing Robinho onto his less preffered left foot, but no, no OI's used.

Also have to say a lot of goals like that are quite realistic.

I dont agree, not in these situations anyway, if the ball was ping ponging up and down the pitch maybe so, but in these situations Lescott has more than enough time to prepare to do his job, but just does not react either at all, or in the correct manner.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Long shot, but any opposition instructions to show on to weaker foot?

Also have to say a lot of goals like that are quite realistic.

Showing onto weaker foot generally works when the player in question has the ball. And I fail to see how standing four yards away from him could qualify as that anyway. Loose marking is the tactical problem in the above case, but it doesn't make nonsensical positioning errors any more acceptable if you ask me.

[CaptainPlanet]

Looks similar to the Keane goal against Arsenal.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Looks similar to the Keane goal against Arsenal.

Actually, I have to agree with this, it does look similar. Except for the fact that Keane's goal was a result of a lucky punt from deep which the defender couldn't anticipate for some reason (horrific positioning nevertheless) while in the example above the through pass couldn't be any more obvious.

[CaptainPlanet]

Pfft lucky punt, Agger knew exactly what he was doing with that gloriously weighted throughball!

[Jonx1888]

People have to bear in mind how difficult it is to balance a believeable match engine with a thorough tactics system, fundamentally this is the problem FM now faces, i read a bit earlier someone saying about Stoke stringing 20+ consecutive passes together being unrealistic, but if your saying the game should determine which teams play good football with total disregard for their tactical setup then what is the point in changing the hundreds of variables in your tactical setup?, people would then just be complaining that tactical changes made no difference so what is the point in having a nice looking game?, might as well just watch some real football! lol

LMA manager had a believable match engine you could watch but it was only 10 mins long, it wasn't trying to simulate a full 90 mins the way FM does so could easily potray a believable snapshot of the game, but it quickly became repetitive and you realised your tactical input was meaningless, the series ended basically because after 5yrs of trying they couldn't balance out what FM have only started to try this year.

[CaptainPlanet]

FM hasn't only started to try this year though, and previous versions of the match engine and how the tactics interacted with it was perfect in many peoples eyes.

The 3D view has nothing to do with the match engine problems in FM09.

[Law_Man]

FM hasn't only started to try this year though, and previous versions of the match engine and how the tactics interacted with it was perfect in many peoples eyes.

The 3D view has nothing to do with the match engine problems in FM09.

Perhaps not but it could quite easily be responsible for misrepresenting situations, and indeed misrepresenting any engine problems.

[Hammer1000]

People have to bear in mind how difficult it is to balance a believeable match engine with a thorough tactics system, fundamentally this is the problem FM now faces, i read a bit earlier someone saying about Stoke stringing 20+ consecutive passes together being unrealistic, but if your saying the game should determine which teams play good football with total disregard for their tactical setup then what is the point in changing the hundreds of variables in your tactical setup?, people would then just be complaining that tactical changes made no difference so what is the point in having a nice looking game?, might as well just watch some real football! lol

LMA manager had a believable match engine you could watch but it was only 10 mins long, it wasn't trying to simulate a full 90 mins the way FM does so could easily potray a believable snapshot of the game, but it quickly became repetitive and you realised your tactical input was meaningless, the series ended basically because after 5yrs of trying they couldn't balance out what FM have only started to try this year.

Thats all well and good mate, but this is the crux of the whole topic and conversation, people are already confused by the whole trying to make sense out of the sliders and setting up tactics, add that to the issues in the ME and its just one big confusing mess.

[CaptainPlanet]

Perhaps not but it could quite easily be responsible for misrepresenting situations, and indeed misrepresenting any engine problems.

Oh absolutely, when 2D first came out it highlighted loads of match engine problems that previously nobody had an idea about as everyone was on commentary only and now we've gone to 3D it's yet another way of showing issues that might not have been so obviously in 2D.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Oh absolutely, when 2D first came out it highlighted loads of match engine problems that previously nobody had an idea about as everyone was on commentary only and now we've gone to 3D it's yet another way of showing issues that might not have been so obviously in 2D.

CM4 and 2D came with a brand new match engine.

[Jonx1888]

FM hasn't only started to try this year though, and previous versions of the match engine and how the tactics interacted with it was perfect in many peoples eyes.

The 3D view has nothing to do with the match engine problems in FM09.

Fair enough i hear what your saying SI have basically said that 2D and 3D is the same, just a different graphical representation.

The only way i can see us getting an actual real representation of a football match in this game is to do away with 80% of the tactical options and leave the game more up to player attributes, so you can tell your team to pass along the ground, defend deep etc etc but the main overriding factor would be is that player better then his opponent, is he in form etc etc, the game can then be configured to play like a real match without having to account for another million factors, then after time things can be added back into the game year after year, for me that would be no bad thing and if we listen to the OP that's pretty much what he wants, although he can tell his LB to man mark and his DM to only close down in his half, this doesn't make a jot of difference if what your watching doesn't seem 'real'.

[Jonx1888]

Thats all well and good mate, but this is the crux of the whole topic and conversation, people are already confused by the whole trying to make sense out of the sliders and setting up tactics, add that to the issues in the ME and its just one big confusing mess.

I hear you mate im as confused as the rest of us and pretty much can't see the way forward without a radical overhaul...;-(

[Hammer1000]

I hear you mate im as confused as the rest of us and pretty much can't see the way forward without a radical overhaul...;-(

I'm not a fan of the sliders, in fact in the last two releases of FM, i can now only work out "if" a tactic is any good and not "why"?

Saying that, i kind of understand the need for them, but for those of us who do not have the time or inclination to try to work out what they all do, in correlation to each other, i think there should be some kind of walkthrough available.

Not one full of hearsay and conjecture, but one written by someone who knows exactly how they work. This way you would have no need for difficulty levels, you can either choose to use the walkthrough, or to work out the whole thing yourself.

And i dont mean an explanation on making a super tactic that wins all either, just enough to make you aware that what you are witnessing in the ME is because of tactical deficiencies or ME weaknesses?

Something like that anyway.

[kopitelewis]

to the person who started this thread: i had never actually noticed all of these things what you have picked out as i dont try to pick out faults with the game on purpose but i have seen it happen quite a few times. oh and in the screenie with lescott, he was trying to stay goal side of him and the reason he was so stretched was because the full back was pushing on and on the attack. this is shown by the commentary saying 'man city look to start a counter attack'. actually, in both sets of screenies it looks similar. what is lescott's awareness?

but i have noticed things like this a lot now and i think it does get annoying when it happens.

[CaptainPlanet]

CM4 and 2D came with a brand new match engine.

I don't class that shambolic disaster a match engine

[Smac]

to the person who started this thread: i had never actually noticed all of these things what you have picked out as i dont try to pick out faults with the game on purpose but i have seen it happen quite a few times. oh and in the screenie with lescott, he was trying to stay goal side of him and the reason he was so stretched was because the full back was pushing on and on the attack. this is shown by the commentary saying 'man city look to start a counter attack'. actually, in both sets of screenies it looks similar. what is lescott's awareness?

but i have noticed things like this a lot now and i think it does get annoying when it happens.

Are you looking at the first set of screens on this page kopitelewis? Lescott is goalside, but on the wrong side of the player by 10 yards, creating a huge gap down the middle. As to the fullback (I assume you mean Lescott?) pushing on the attack, he could be found in such a position, IF he had the ball, but other defenders would cover for him and not leave him as essentially the last man. If you mean Man Citeh's fullback I'm not sure where on the pitch he's threatening Lescott's position?

[kopitelewis]

Are you looking at the first set of screens on this page kopitelewis? Lescott is goalside, but on the wrong side of the player by 10 yards, creating a huge gap down the middle. As to the fullback (I assume you mean Lescott?) pushing on the attack, he could be found in such a position, IF he had the ball, but other defenders would cover for him and not leave him as essentially the last man. If you mean Man Citeh's fullback I'm not sure where on the pitch he's threatening Lescott's position?

oh right! i thought you meant that lescott was the lcb not the left full back.

[Armchair_Athlete]

The other team clear the ball and my defender yakubu easily gets to it

He then decides to do the obvious thing.................. run away from the ball for no reason

Fortunately he does decide to come back

[Äktsjon Männ]

I don't class that shambolic disaster a match engine

It was horrific indeed. Was just pointing out that CM4's engine didn't highlight any flaws with the CM3 generation engine, all the problems were there because of the match engine revamp that was needed for the 2D to work. CM 03/04 however was only a year later and looked quite solid for the time. If 3D can be improved as much as the 2D was in a year then FM10 might be solid as well. Problem is, this is still the same engine and I'm afraid we're seeing its limitations now. The physics especially are fine for 2D but look horribly out of place in 3D.

[Armchair_Athlete]

And stand beside the ball doing nothing

Untill Harris takes the ball and scores

This undoubtedly though is due to his poor concentration and decison attributes and not a bug (he must have lost concentration and forgot he was in the middle of a match and decided to walk off and then because of his bad anticipation couldn't anticipate that the player running towards him was trying to get the ball)

[PaulC]

The pkm for the above screenshots would allow us to make sure that incidence is fixed for 9.3.

Ditto the Lescott one.

Cheers,

Paul

[kopsy101]

Here are another couple of scenario's shown in screenshots, i'll set the stage by giving you as much info as i can.

In this first pic, you can see that City have come away with the ball following an Everton(my team) throw. Lescott is my player, circled in red, his instructions are to loose/man mark, he has anticipation and positioning skills both of 17 and he is playing as my DC(L) and is wanted by Barca, Real and other top clubs.

So why on earth has he positioned himself this way?

This pic(2) shows you what WE all knew was coming, yet Lescott made no attempt to move across until AFTER the ball is played?

first of all who is the other central defender? he should be closer to richards. robinho could also have dragged richards over, the other defender not noticing and then made the run through the centre?

as for the other example, the pass and run is just very well timed and therefore moutinho is running already and therefore these are not valid examples.

[Guest]

Wow, i put the game down till 9.3. Coming on here makes me sure i made the right decision. Some of the things above are ridiculous! Lets hope they can fix it!

[Armchair_Athlete]

The pkm for the above screenshots would allow us to make sure that incidence is fixed for 9.3.

Ditto the Lescott one.

Cheers,

Paul

How do I get it and then what do I do with it?

[Smac]

See here for uploading details: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=54927

Or you can host the pkm on something like megaupload.

The pkm is the match save file. Hit the 'save' button on the match screen when reviewing the match and then find the file and upload.

[Armchair_Athlete]

See here for uploading details: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=54927

Or you can host the pkm on something like megaupload.

The pkm is the match save file. Hit the 'save' button on the match screen when reviewing the match and then find the file and upload.

Just done it now using the way from that thread

Its called Armchair Athlete Bad Defending.pkm

[Smac]

Then you can post the name of the .pkm file here and Paul, etc.. can pick it up.

[SuperMeppen]

Wow, Armchair, those screens show a bad example of *everything*, and highlight beautifully the problems with the ME.

1. 5 players *all* running to close down the ball? *All* pretty-much in a straight line, too. Seriously - 5 players to close down the ball in the defensive third, all moving at roughly the speed (to keep that wonderful attacking line straight). That's just spooky!

2. Where has the opp. midfield gone? Oh yes, to all chase the ball, leaving a massive clear space of at least 40-60 yeards behind them, meaning any clearance had a great chance to set-up a heavily-outnumbered counter-attack. Although clearly it had been determined you were going to be scored against, but still...

3. One of your team stays pretty much put halfway between the centre-circle and the penalty area, letting a player who was *further away* track back. Interesting.

It's like being back at school, good-old kick-and-rush! I'd love somebody to blame that on your tactics, whilst at the same time not suggesting that the AI's idea of having the midfield abandonned is something that is realistic.

The problem we have these days is that we are given all these stats (plus the hidden ones) that are meant to give players a personality of sorts, and make us believe there is an element of freedom in their decision-making. Then on the other hand we are told that the problems are solely down to tactics, thus rendering the stats largely worthless in a matchday situation. And it's very hard to try and tell from the ME which is playing a bigger part (or any part at all, really).

Look again at the absence of the midfield in Armchairs' pictures - it's the 22nd minute of the game and there are *no* opposition midfielders in midfield! Can that be anything other than the ME not representing what decisions you make? Be interesting to know if that will be looked at for 9.3 - what are you fixing from that .pkm, Paul?

[Veg]

It is possible that Richards had to turn and that is where the ground was lost, alternatively he didnt run to cut Fuller off which would either be a bad decision or a bug. I'd have to analyze the pkm to be sure. For what its worth, dont assume a 19 will burn off a 15 by a distance for pace. He is quicker in an even race but it wont be that far in the scheme of things.

Paul, This was an example, if it had happened once in a while it would be ok, but as a lot of people saying this happens to often in this game, sometimes 5 times plus in a game. The example isn't the problem, the problem is the high frequense of how often such stupid mistakes are done.

[Wee Aja]

Armchair Athlete's screenshots are quite simply ridiculous (but funny nonetheless) :D

Thankfully, PaulC has said they will be eradicating this sort of this from the ME in time for 9.3

[lionbush]

What is really starting to **** me off is the amount of vital last minute goals the AI seems to score against me. No matter what I do you know it is going to score that last minute dramatic equaliser. But my side never manages it.

It's ruining the enjoyment for me.

[Wee Aja]

What is really starting to **** me off is the amount of vital last minute goals the AI seems to score against me. No matter what I do you know it is going to score that last minute dramatic equaliser. But my side never manages it.

It's ruining the enjoyment for me.

I don't like saying it, but that sort of thing IS tactical.

I don't find it difficult holding onto a lead lately on either of my saves. I just switch tactics to a more defensive/deep/narrow style and it (usually) works.

It's the things shown on this thread that AREN'T tactical, and really shouldn't happen.

[lionbush]

I don't like saying it, but that sort of thing IS tactical.

I don't find it difficult holding onto a lead lately on either of my saves. I just switch tactics to a more defensive/deep/narrow style and it (usually) works.

It's the things shown on this thread that AREN'T tactical, and really shouldn't happen.

I wish it was tactical. I move to a 4-2-3-1 formation with 2 DM and 3 mids. I play narrow, with time wasting and slow tempo.

The AI isn't forcing goals through play. I lost the FA cup final last minute due to plkayer error. Lost the QF of Champs league due to player error same with the FA CUp 5th round. All player errors. It's not tactical, my shut out tactic stops chances being created. It doesn't stop last minute errors all the time though.

Edit: The CL QF v Chelsea where they got last minute goal through error, followed Man Utd game where they made it 3-3 last minute through you guessed it... player error.

[Wee Aja]

Oh, I see what you are saying, sorry

Things like we're seeing on here? Silly (very much avoidable) errors, leading to last-gasp goals?

If that's the case then I understand what you meant, and no, it's not tactical. It's AI idiocy

[lionbush]

Ahh no probs.

It just grates to see it happen so often. I understand that last minute goals are part and parcel of the game but this is just silly now.

[wwfan]

But the very worst of it all is by far the utter stupidness and nothing like real life(maybe 8 year old kids) movement of defenders. Professional footballers do NOT run sideways or completely stop, or move AWAY from the ball(and opponent) when defending, even the worst defenders get these "basics" right most of the time and that's what we are talking about here "basic" football skills, in fact a lot of it is just common sense and non footy related at all, this is where the problem lies.

I'd agree that defenders should get the basics right most of the time. Where I don't agree is that any player, even really good ones, can always get the basics right. I made my living coaching tennis for a number of years, so understand the sport from technical and mental angles. At my best, I'd have been the tennis equivalent of perhaps a L1 footballer, although I'm a much better coach than I am player. I've also been fortunate enough to play with players who would be Premiership standard in a direct comparison. I used to be able to cope with the level because my decision making and strategic awareness was considerably better than my technical and physical ability, which often made me an ideal doubles partner for rawer, younger talent. Even then, I still made, and make, bloody stupid choices during matches. I go for balls I shouldn't go for, pick shots I shouldn't attempt, try the Hollywood shot when a simpler option is available. I don't do it often, as if I did I'd be a far worse player, but I do it often enough to exasperate myself.

However, the reason I played with the raw talent was down to my being able to control their youthful, exuberant excesses and mold them into more complete players. My job was to stop them relying on sheer talent (which led to unbelievable shot making but correspondingly horrifically bad choices of shot) and learn how to make decisions that made the best of their ability. Their technical and physical talent wasn't enough in itself. They had to learn the game. The FM ME tries to reproduce that learning in its calculation of mental stats. Hence, the peak years of players occurring when they do. Some of the examples in this thread are obviously bugs, but other examples you have given in the past are more related to the kind of ME calculations that MV explained and you shot down. Talented technical players without much match experience will not just make mistakes, but they need to make mistakes in order for the full plethora of sporting attributes to represent in the ME. That they are not represented perfectly is unarguable. They aren't. However, that the ME is as simple as you or others suggest, and that MV's and Paul's explanations are smokescreens, simply isn't the case. My main arguments given all the above examples would be:

1: Defensive running lines are poor. As it is a pretty basic component of football, they should be improved, but not to the extent that the poor decision making DC always picks the perfect line.

2: The MCd needs to track back and cover possible breaks if a DC steps out of the defensive line. However, if the DC has low anticipation, positioning and workrate, he might not do so well.

3: The crabbing is a weird, possibly graphical, bug that needs to be fixed

4: The DC running to a ball prior to retreating is definitely a bug, albeit a rare one, and needs to be fixed.

5: FBs need to pick the opposing winger as their markee to stop them getting dragged inside, especially when the ball is on their flank, and work harder to stop the cross getting in. However, when it is on the opposite flank, they need to narrow to make an extra man in the box should the cross come in.

As for using Richards as an example, ......

[jamiehex]

Man City defends like that in real life. Richards can't close a door much less a player and his positioning sucks. They are my favorite team but they drive me insane. At least you won the league

[Smac]

But the very worst of it all is by far the utter stupidness and nothing like real life(maybe 8 year old kids) movement of defenders. Professional footballers do NOT run sideways or completely stop, or move AWAY from the ball(and opponent) when defending, even the worst defenders get these "basics" right most of the time and that's what we are talking about here "basic" football skills, in fact a lot of it is just common sense and non footy related at all, this is where the problem lies.

My bold. Your quote of Hammer.

I'd agree that defenders should get the basics right most of the time. Where I don't agree is that any player, even really good ones, can always get the basics right. I made my living coaching tennis ......

C'mon. Really?

Nobody is arguing about perfect players and no mistakes, that is unless they are trying to dismiss the argument out of hand by pretending its been made about something else.

The question is: Does the simulation simulate defending well? (lets measure 'well' against FM07 or 08)

?

Does it simulate 'skinning' defenders well?

?

Does it simulate pace well?

?

Does it simulate 1-v-1's well?

?

Etc...